/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-10-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 25 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] * anne has never verified that though
  4. # [00:20] <kingryan> jgraham: I didn't do it by hand, I used the output from the tests and some copy/paste
  5. # [00:21] <jgraham> kingryan: Sounds sensible
  6. # [00:21] <kingryan> anne: I doubt it does that, because before I started working on this, the error messages were inconsistent
  7. # [00:21] <kingryan> jgraham: took me about 2 hours to do it
  8. # [00:21] <jgraham> I admire your dedication
  9. # [00:22] <kingryan> well, I am getting paid to do it
  10. # [00:22] <anne> that's nice
  11. # [00:22] <kingryan> we're using it in test versions of our spider at technorati
  12. # [00:24] <anne> so on one hand I want to port it to C but on the other I think it might be wiser to wait until browser vendors actually start implementing the parsing part of the specification
  13. # [00:24] <jgraham> I guess real world jobs are motivating in that respect
  14. # [00:24] <anne> because I think that when that happens changes will be made
  15. # [00:24] <kingryan> anne: I'd wait on C, too
  16. # [00:24] * jgraham will have to find a job at some point
  17. # [00:24] * kingryan might rewrite the inputstream in C
  18. # [00:25] <jgraham> I quite fancy doing a C++ port as a learning exercise
  19. # [00:25] <anne> inputstream seems like a likely target for changes, btw
  20. # [00:25] <jgraham> but it's not top of my pile at the moment
  21. # [00:25] <kingryan> anne: it'll likely change, but it's also small
  22. # [00:26] <kingryan> (relatively speaking)
  23. # [00:26] <anne> true
  24. # [00:26] <jgraham> And having a C implementation would cut the run time by a factor ~ 2
  25. # [00:26] <jgraham> (of the whole system, assuming C is essentially infinitely fast)
  26. # [00:26] <anne> I looked at C for a few days during the summer and my main issue was getting a grip on memory management and doing all that properly
  27. # [00:28] <anne> I have some vague ideas on how to do it, but they all seem ugly. On the other hand, this may be why people don't program in C that much
  28. # [00:28] <jgraham> I'm not sure that last statement is strictly true
  29. # [00:29] <jgraham> It's still pretty popular
  30. # [00:29] <jgraham> Mind you I was using fortran recently, so what do I know :)
  31. # [00:29] <anne> Yeah, it's also way more likely I'm doing something wrong
  32. # [00:32] <Philip> Could you use C++ rather than C?
  33. # [00:32] <Philip> It seems a much less old-fashioned language
  34. # [00:33] <anne> parsers seem to be written in C generally
  35. # [00:33] <anne> well, I'm comparing with libxml mostly
  36. # [00:34] <jgraham> Philip: Sure. It's also huge to learn :(
  37. # [00:34] <kingryan> Philip: I'm not sure using C++ would make much difference for something like inputstream
  38. # [00:34] <kingryan> though, I have done much more C++ than C in my life
  39. # [00:35] * Philip has been modifying a C application (Quagga) recently, and the almost nonexistent type-checking and the inability to declare variables in the middle of a function and the horrible GNU indent style are a little annoying
  40. # [00:37] <anne> seems that http://www.cs.um.edu.mt/~cstaff/courses/lectures/csa2060/c8a.html deals with most of the issues I was worrying about when I was playing with C based on a handful of cached Wikipedia pages
  41. # [00:38] <anne> and indeed, you do need to keep a lot of counters around to make sure memory allocation works
  42. # [00:39] <jgraham> Is there a right way of doing Unicode with C++?
  43. # [00:39] <jgraham> Specifically, is there a cross platform lib we could use
  44. # [00:40] <jgraham> Preferably with a sane API?
  45. # [00:40] <Philip> jgraham: What kind of "doing Unicode"?
  46. # [00:41] <Philip> I've heard of people using ICU, though it seems like a rather heavy library
  47. # [00:41] <anne> In C my idea was to let the internal representation be UTF-8
  48. # [00:41] <anne> that would work great for the tokenizer
  49. # [00:41] <Philip> wchar_t* strings have been enough Unicode for what I've done so far
  50. # [00:41] <jgraham> Well my experience is from python, so something like that i.e. a way to get some bytes, decode them from their wire encoding to UTF-8/16 and then use UTF-8/16 internally
  51. # [00:41] <jgraham> wchar_t is 4 bytes?
  52. # [00:42] <Philip> On GCC with default options, yes
  53. # [00:42] <anne> and for the other bits it doesn't matter as you're either dealing with bytes or "objects"
  54. # [00:42] <jgraham> (per codepoint)
  55. # [00:42] <anne> it depends on the compiler
  56. # [00:42] <Philip> sizeof(wchar_t) == 2 on MSVC, so it's not very useful for portability
  57. # [00:42] <anne> last time I checked
  58. # [00:42] <Philip> Something like uint16_t* would be much safer
  59. # [00:43] <Philip> or std::basic_string<uint16_t> (plus some character trait stuff to make it work) in C++
  60. # [00:43] <anne> what's wrong with UTF-8 though? all the important characters are a single byte there...
  61. # [00:43] <anne> so you can use all the native string functions
  62. # [00:44] <jgraham> anne: Getting stuff from legacy encodings to UTF-8
  63. # [00:44] <anne> iconv?
  64. # [00:46] <jgraham> I guess.
  65. # [00:47] <anne> heh, hsivonen carefully avoids mentioning vendor names, yet cites Nintendo Wii :)
  66. # [00:49] <anne> http://www.gnu.org/software/libiconv/documentation/libiconv/iconv.1.html says it's supported :)
  67. # [00:50] <anne> iconv --list lists an amazing amount of fonts too, ouch
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  71. # [01:00] <anne> more on memory stuff: http://users.actcom.co.il/~choo/lupg/tutorials/unix-memory/unix-memory.html
  72. # [01:01] <Philip> That makes it look rather complex
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  79. # [01:50] <DanC> hmm... are there any good open source hypertext editors?
  80. # [01:50] <olivier> nvu?
  81. # [01:51] <DanC> do you use it?
  82. # [01:51] <DanC> I have trained a few other people to use it; it works to a certain extent
  83. # [01:52] <DanC> hmm.. doesn't seem to be in ubuntu apt
  84. # [01:52] <olivier> no, not really, I've used it a couple of times, but I'm an incorrigible lover of text editors
  85. # [01:52] <olivier> this looks like a good list : http://www.designvitality.com/blog/2007/10/25-open-source-web-design-programs-and-tools-you-should-already-know-about
  86. # [01:53] <DanC> ah...
  87. # [01:53] <DanC> kompozer - Complete Web Authoring System
  88. # [01:53] <olivier> yeah, I was expecting the KDE suite would have something
  89. # [01:57] <DanC> well, kompozer is a follow-on from nvu; I don't think it's directly related to KDE
  90. # [01:57] <DanC> ugh... when I drag and drop the icon for a page from firefox to kompozer, I get an in-your-face URL; I want <a href="url">title</a>
  91. # [01:58] <DanC> not <a href="url">url</a>
  92. # [02:01] <olivier> actually, my text editor (textmate) used to do that
  93. # [02:01] <DanC> hmm... how do I blockquote?
  94. # [02:02] <olivier> and the fact that it retrieved and parsed documents made it really unusable
  95. # [02:03] <DanC> search for blockquote in the nvu/kompozer help yeilds zip.
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  98. # [02:11] <DanC> gee... I think this might be easier with Amaya
  99. # [02:16] <karl> daniel is working on the next version but it is not ready yet
  100. # [02:16] <karl> nvu will not be updated anymore because based on the old engines of Mozilla
  101. # [02:18] <karl> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2007/10/17/Nvu-Kompozer-Composer
  102. # [02:21] <olivier> pity daniel hasn't managed to answer any of the comments
  103. # [02:22] <olivier> there are some good questions :)
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  107. # [02:44] <DanC> yes, Amaya supports blockquote and cite and such better.
  108. # [02:44] <DanC> just a couple more details and I'll show you what I'm working on...
  109. # [02:53] <DanC> there: Remembering Modula-3 http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/diary/56.html
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  134. # [04:52] <karl> 35 messages late on public-html
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  136. # [04:52] <karl> maybe today after meetings I will have time to read
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  138. # [05:07] <karl> http://open.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/messing-around-with-metadata/
  139. # [05:08] <karl> October 23, 2007, 11:56 am
  140. # [05:08] <karl> Messing Around With Metadata
  141. # [05:08] <karl> By Jacob Harris
  142. # [05:08] <karl> "Metadata — for our non-technical readers, the data about the data of the content — is always great to find, because good metadata is worth its metaphorical weight in gold."
  143. # [05:09] <karl> "For all its usefulness, the New York Times metadata seems remarkably underutilized by people out there. "
  144. # [05:09] <karl> "But some people have been doing their own interesting things and deserve mention. Blogger Ian Kennedy noted the importance of this metadata in his article Mining the New York Times Archives. Programmer Aaron Straup Cope creates a daily visualization of the relationships between articles in the times using the metadata. "
  145. # [05:10] <sbuluf> perhaps if they would publish the truth from time to time...
  146. # [05:12] <sbuluf> but more to the point, what good is it that this or that site publishes some form of metadata? it should be a net wide thing, so end users bother to learn some generic tool
  147. # [05:43] <karl> sbuluf: metadata are useful too on mac os x. Spotlight indexes html files and take care of the metadata. It is very useful for me when I'm searching information on sites I'm working on.
  148. # [05:44] <karl> and with the new feature proposed par leopard, local network indexing by spotligh, it will be even more useful
  149. # [05:49] <sbuluf> i'm happy if you are happy, karl. i still think the problem is deeper, though
  150. # [05:49] * karl didn't mention happiness
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  158. # [08:10] * MikeSmith finally makes time to try out test page of client-side DB API in Webkit
  159. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> and related new stuff in Web Inspector
  160. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> this rocks mightily
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  203. # [12:55] <hsivonen> hmm. the Support Existing Content action item turned into productivity loss. :-(
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  212. # [14:04] <heycam> is there a method that returns the currently focussed object?
  213. # [14:06] <anne> document.activeElement
  214. # [14:06] <anne> it's not a method though
  215. # [14:06] <heycam> cool thanks
  216. # [14:06] <heycam> conveniently in the "Focus" section, how did i miss it :)
  217. # [14:07] <anne> focus will probably get some more attention at some point btw, but this think will stay as it already has several implementations
  218. # [14:10] <heycam> what's with focus in opera, how come links don't get the focus?
  219. # [14:13] <anne> we don't include links in the tabbing order you mean? or something else?
  220. # [14:16] <heycam> yeah
  221. # [14:22] <anne> i don't really like that, but it seems some set of people does
  222. # [14:23] <heycam> it'd be nice if were configurable
  223. # [14:24] <anne> it might be
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  235. # [15:22] <Philip> Ooh, canvas.drawImage(svg, ...) is in Opera now
  236. # [15:23] <anne> yeah, I hope to e-mail something about it to the HTML WG either today or tomorrow
  237. # [15:27] <Dashiva> Proprietary technology, run for the hills >:)
  238. # [15:27] <Philip> Hmph, it doesn't scale them nicely
  239. # [15:27] <Philip> (It does bitmap scaling rather than vector)
  240. # [15:28] <hsivonen> kinda defeats the point, doesn't it
  241. # [15:28] <anne> sounds like a bug
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  243. # [15:30] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/svg/scale.html
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  245. # [15:35] <Philip> Looks like any drawing of an SVG makes the canvas unreadable (i.e. you can't do toDataURL or getImageData without getting security exceptions)
  246. # [15:36] <anne> that seems reasonable for an experimental impl
  247. # [15:36] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/demos/canvas/svg/cross-domain.html
  248. # [15:37] <Philip> Hmm, when I run that as a local file, the image on the left doesn't get painted until I cover/uncover the window
  249. # [15:37] <Philip> but it works correctly online
  250. # [15:37] <Philip> Oh, no it doesn't
  251. # [15:37] <Philip> (at least sometimes)
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  253. # [15:43] <Philip> Ooh, atop/xor/lighter blending is fixed
  254. # [15:43] <anne> we fixed a number of <canvas> issues, I'm not sure what the current status is though
  255. # [15:44] <Philip> darker blending is no longer supported, too
  256. # [15:44] <Philip> ...which reveals a bug in one of my tests
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  258. # [15:50] <Philip> Radial gradients are still acting weirdly
  259. # [15:50] <Philip> (in <http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/radial-gradients.html>)
  260. # [15:50] <Philip> (especially the last-but-one case)
  261. # [15:51] <anne> I think timj didn't agree with the tests or the spec
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  263. # [15:56] <Philip> I can understand disagreement with e.g. the colour outside the cone defined by the two circles, since the spec and tests and Safari are pretty odd in that case
  264. # [15:56] <anne> I think that's it, yes
  265. # [15:56] <Philip> but in e.g. the second line on that page, the blue of the inner circle really shouldn't be extending out past the edges of the outer circle
  266. # [15:57] <anne> I've been pretty bad at following up on <canvas> issues. I should probably do something about that
  267. # [15:57] <Philip> and the last three don't really make any sense at all :-)
  268. # [15:59] <Philip> But at least O9.5b1 gets 81.2% on my tests, compared to 77.0% for an older version (alpha 1?) and 64.5% for O9.2, so in general it's doing alright :-)
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  319. # [21:03] <anne> ok, posted about the SVG extensions on public-html
  320. # [21:03] <anne> and whatwg for good measure
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  327. # [21:53] <Philip> Hmm, Firefox and Opera support drawImage(HTMLObjectElement, ...)
  328. # [21:53] <Philip> (Don't know what Safari does)
  329. # [21:53] <Hixie> fun
  330. # [21:53] <Hixie> does it work with non-image objects?
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  332. # [21:59] <Philip> Hixie: No
  333. # [21:59] <Hixie> k
  334. # [21:59] <Hixie> not as fun
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  336. # [22:00] <Philip> or at least it seems to not work when I try text or HTML, or SVG in Firefox; but it does work with PNG, or SVG in Opera 9.5
  337. # [22:00] <Hixie> xhtml in 9.5?
  338. # [22:01] <Philip> ?
  339. # [22:01] <Hixie> what about an <object> pointing to xhtml in opera 9.5?
  340. # [22:06] <Philip> Ah
  341. # [22:08] <anne> I don't think that would work
  342. # [22:08] <Hixie> if svg works...
  343. # [22:08] <Philip> With local files, it seems to work only when the file has a .svg extension (presumably because it guess content-type in that case) and the root is <svg> in the right namespace
  344. # [22:08] <Philip> s/guess/guesses/
  345. # [22:08] <Hixie> so if the document has <svg><foreignObject> ?
  346. # [22:09] <anne> dunno really
  347. # [22:09] <anne> foreignObject is weird
  348. # [22:14] * Philip doesn't know how to make foreignObject work in Opera at all
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  354. # [22:16] <Philip> anne: Is drawImage(SVGSVGElement, ...) meant to work?
  355. # [22:16] <Philip> (It doesn't when I try it)
  356. # [22:23] <Philip> Aha, got a foreignObject working in the SVG
  357. # [22:23] <Philip> It gets rendered as a black rectangle when you draw it onto the canvas
  358. # [22:24] <Hixie> nice
  359. # [22:25] <anne> Philip, SVGSvgElement is meant to, yes
  360. # [22:29] <Philip> Hmm, looks like you can't use SVG inside HTML foreignObject inside SVG in Opera
  361. # [22:29] <Hixie> clearly opera sucks.
  362. # [22:29] <Hixie> can you put a textarea inside foreignobject and then rotate it, like you can in firefox trunk?
  363. # [22:33] <Philip> You sort of can, but it gets rendered without a border or anything
  364. # [22:33] <Philip> <img> gets rendered as the text "Image"
  365. # [22:33] <Hixie> can you type and stuff?
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  367. # [22:38] <Philip> Am I meant to be able to use <html:use/> and <xlink:use/> etc as synonyms for <svg:use/>?
  368. # [22:38] <Philip> At least Firefox 3 and Opera 9.5 seem to ignore the namespace for <use>
  369. # [22:40] <anne> oops...
  370. # [22:40] <Philip> Opera 9.5 does let you type into <textarea>s, though it usually doesn't refresh the screen when you change the text
  371. # [22:41] <Philip> and it looks totally rubbish compared to FF3 since it fails to render anything except plain text (so no borders, background colours, etc)
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  376. # [22:56] <anne> Hixie, shouldn't the IDL just be a mapping of what is/needs to be implemented?
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  381. # [23:25] <Hixie> anne: it's far from that already
  382. # [23:25] <anne> I thought you could generate some code from most of it
  383. # [23:26] <Hixie> some people do, but the IDL in the spec doesn't work for that yet
  384. # [23:26] <Hixie> e.g. it doesn't have any of the deprecated attributes
  385. # [23:27] * anne was hoping those would be added at some point
  386. # [23:28] <Hixie> maybe
  387. # [23:28] <Hixie> possibly as part of a second IDL
  388. # [23:28] <Hixie> i don't want to mix the UA guidelines on obsolete things with the authoring guidelines
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  391. # [23:29] <anne> yeah, that's fair enough
  392. # [23:30] <Hixie> providing a formal IDL might work better than providing a formal schema
  393. # [23:30] <Hixie> but we'll see
  394. # [23:30] <Hixie> can't happen until dom bindings spec is solid anyway
  395. # [23:32] <anne> btw, shouldn't we introduce PIs in HTML too? otherwise we likely end up with things like <html xbl= ac-allow= ac-deny= ac-exclude= manifest> ...
  396. # [23:33] <anne> and another difference between HTML and XHTML
  397. # [23:33] <Hixie> ?
  398. # [23:33] <Hixie> <?xbl?> only makes sense for custom languages
  399. # [23:33] <anne> well, if you want something like <?xbl?> in HTML or <?access-control?> that seems the most logical at this point
  400. # [23:33] <Hixie> you don't need it for html, html uas already implement the semantic bindings natively
  401. # [23:34] <Hixie> access-control isn't a big deal, most people will be using xml data for comms, and if they don't, they can use http headers
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The end :)