/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 31 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:01] <DanC> not clear that anybody has reviewed that whole section, though there is one comment on it. http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mid/470EE49E.8010203@terrainformatica.com;list=public-html
  4. # [00:02] <DanC> I'm inclined to put the question to publish this Fri and announce the outcome Sat 10 Nov
  5. # [00:02] <Lachy_> good
  6. # [00:03] <ChrisWilson> fine. Are we ever going to publish the principles, or have those fallen by the wayside?
  7. # [00:03] <DanC> 44 WG members want the design principles published; I want it published as soon as mjs gives some thought to the accessibility comments
  8. # [00:04] <DanC> maybe we should just add a "some accessibility-related comments are pending" note and publish 1.10, mjs?
  9. # [00:04] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  10. # [00:05] <mjs> DanC: I will very likely have time this weekend, that is my time to prep for the tech plenary
  11. # [00:06] <DanC> would be really nice to have something by Friday.
  12. # [00:06] <mjs> this Friday?
  13. # [00:06] <anne> mjs, will you be at the telcon tomorrow?
  14. # [00:06] <DanC> yes, Fri, 2 Nov
  15. # [00:06] <mjs> I have an all-day meeting Thursday
  16. # [00:07] <mjs> anne, yes I will be at the forms telecon Wednesday morening
  17. # [00:07] <mjs> I might be able to do something miraculous tonight or tomorrow
  18. # [00:07] * anne ponders over "defeats many of the advantages of XML in the first place"
  19. # [00:08] * DanC wonders if anne could give the accessibility comments a thought; http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0663.html
  20. # [00:08] <DanC> Laura Carlson endorsed Steve Faulkner's proposal.
  21. # [00:08] <DanC> it looks ok to me
  22. # [00:09] <DanC> I asked Gregory and Henri to try to work out their differences, but that thread didn't converge.
  23. # [00:09] <anne> DanC, I thought mjs was responsible for design principles for now?
  24. # [00:09] <DanC> proposal, to wit:
  25. # [00:09] <DanC> "Design features to be accessible, universal, and inclusive. Access by everyone regardless of ability is an essential. Deliverables will satisfy accessibility requirements. To ensure this we will work closely with the WAI<http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#wai>."
  26. # [00:09] <DanC> well, yeah, but he's clearly swamped, so I'm wondering if you can pinch-hit
  27. # [00:10] <DanC> (does that analogy make sense across the ocean?)
  28. # [00:10] <DanC> ugh... I gotta go... family time.
  29. # [00:10] * DanC wanders off, wishing for something miraculous...
  30. # [00:11] <anne> I suppose I can look into resolving some HDP issues if mjs is ok with it though I doubt I have much time before Friday
  31. # [00:12] * Joins: sbuluf (kwx@200.49.140.221)
  32. # [00:12] <Lachy_> hmm. I've got some emails sitting in the moderation queue for public-forms-tf form Nick van den Bleeken. I suppose I should let those go through
  33. # [00:12] <Lachy_> oh, one's a month old. oops!
  34. # [00:14] <mjs> anne, I am ok with it
  35. # [00:14] <mjs> anne, I think improving the Accessibility principle is most important
  36. # [00:14] <mjs> anne, do you have free time after the telecon tomorrow?
  37. # [00:14] <anne> to satisfy the most vocal people, yes
  38. # [00:15] <anne> yeah, that should be feasible
  39. # [00:15] * anne notes http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2007/10/30/ecmascript-3-and-beyond.aspx and http://blogs.msdn.com/jscript/archive/2007/10/29/ecmascript-3-and-beyond.aspx
  40. # [00:18] <anne> the first link makes it sounds like they're inventing a new language but the second just talks about deviations from ES3 that are de facto (mostly Firefox extensions (spelled as FireFox for some reason))
  41. # [00:18] <ChrisWilson> Would you like to ask the author of that first post what they intended?
  42. # [00:18] * Quits: sbuluf (kwx@200.49.140.221) (Ping timeout)
  43. # [00:18] <anne> it seems that you hint at internal discussions
  44. # [00:19] <ChrisWilson> huh?
  45. # [00:19] <ChrisWilson> what internal discussions?
  46. # [00:19] <anne> well, not hint, that's what you say actually
  47. # [00:19] <anne> that the IE Team believes in a new language
  48. # [00:19] <anne> but then the post goes on to say that the jscript blog has more on that topic which it doesn't, which is what confused me
  49. # [00:20] <mjs> Microsoft is trying to stop the current ES4 draft spec
  50. # [00:20] * Joins: sbuluf (alk@200.49.140.150)
  51. # [00:20] <ChrisWilson> umm, no, I said IE team believs in thoughtful evolution (for ECMAScript); ... a _revolution_ would be best done in a new language.
  52. # [00:20] <ChrisWilson> Personally, I like Javascript.
  53. # [00:20] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.145.103)
  54. # [00:20] <ChrisWilson> An interesting summation.
  55. # [00:21] <mjs> OK, let me put it this way
  56. # [00:21] <ChrisWilson> Brendan Eich has been quite direct smacking Microsoft for not being more public about our dissent, so yes.
  57. # [00:21] <mjs> Microsoft is trying to stop the current ECMAScript 4 draft spec from becoming the successor spec to ECMAScript 3
  58. # [00:21] <anne> (what mjs says is what the ES4 committee said, pretty much)
  59. # [00:21] <mjs> I have no educated opinion yet on whether this is good or bad
  60. # [00:21] <ChrisWilson> yeah, that's pretty close to how I'd put it (mjs)
  61. # [00:21] <mjs> but I am reading the relevant documents
  62. # [00:22] <anne> I am a bit sceptic about deployment of ES4 as I believe it requires you to specify <script type=text/ecmascript;version=4> which is not nice
  63. # [00:23] <mjs> I think that's one thing that absolutely needs to be fixed for the language to succeed
  64. # [00:23] <ChrisWilson> well, yes, that's a big point.
  65. # [00:23] * Hixie agrees
  66. # [00:23] <mjs> I also think it is probably fixable
  67. # [00:23] <Hixie> seems likely
  68. # [00:23] <anne> it probably requires renaming some variables and fixing E4X to not include silly features such as comments...
  69. # [00:23] <ChrisWilson> That would require the ES4 proposal to be completely backward-compatible with ES3, including (for the most part) performance characteristics.
  70. # [00:23] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Quit: .)
  71. # [00:23] <anne> s/variables/constants/
  72. # [00:24] <Hixie> no, it just has to be compatible with legacy content and legacy UAs
  73. # [00:24] <mjs> it would only require that it is possible to write interesting ES4 that can work the same when processed as ES3
  74. # [00:24] <Philip> HTML5 could support <es4><!-- some code --></es4>, which should be just as compatible with existing implementations as ES4 would otherwise be, and would be much easier to write than <script type...>
  75. # [00:24] <mjs> I don't know what you mean about performance characteristics
  76. # [00:24] <Hixie> just like HTML5 has to be compatible with legacy documents and legacy UAs, but not necessarily with the HTML4 spec
  77. # [00:24] <mjs> does that mean it can't be faster?
  78. # [00:25] <ChrisWilson> Hixie, are you intending "s/ES3/legacy UAs" to my statement?
  79. # [00:25] <ChrisWilson> mjs: no, I mean it can't harm the performance of scripts already out there.
  80. # [00:25] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: UAs and scripts, but yes.
  81. # [00:26] <mjs> ChrisWilson: you mean if someone makes a really crappy implementation of ES4 where the ES3 subset performs worse than their old ES3 engine?
  82. # [00:26] <ChrisWilson> yes. That's what I meant, really - you'll note that the JScript team has been spending their time detailing where realities differ (between UAs and IE from the spec).
  83. # [00:26] <mjs> it would have to be a pretty big gap to be a showstopper, considering that scripts live with the current performance differences in browser ES3 implementations
  84. # [00:26] <mjs> but in general I agree with you
  85. # [00:27] <Philip> anne: ES4 doesn't include E4X, so the comment issue might not matter
  86. # [00:27] <ChrisWilson> mjs: I don't know that it would require a particularly crappy implementation of ES4. Grafting static and dynamic typing together is hard.
  87. # [00:27] <mjs> ChrisWilson: I say it would be hard because you'd have to either not benchmark or not care about the results to make that sort of mistake
  88. # [00:27] <anne> Philip, true enough, but if we want E4X in such a way that would be an additional constraint
  89. # [00:28] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  90. # [00:28] <ChrisWilson> Philip: thanks, hadn't gotten to that (E4X). I'll just quote Douglas Crockford, no personal emphasis implied - "E4X is dead."
  91. # [00:28] <ChrisWilson> mjs:? It's a very hard problem, particularly when interoperating.
  92. # [00:28] <mjs> I am no fan of E4X
  93. # [00:28] <anne> hmm, with only one experimental implementation that seems a bit premature
  94. # [00:28] <ChrisWilson> anne: experimental implementation of what?
  95. # [00:29] <anne> E4X
  96. # [00:29] <anne> (well, that's deployed on the Web)
  97. # [00:29] <ChrisWilson> I think that was his point, actually.
  98. # [00:29] <anne> oh
  99. # [00:29] <mjs> ChrisWilson: Apple doesn't pay me to only do easy stuff :-)
  100. # [00:29] <ChrisWilson> I'm happy to hear demand for E4X. But I haven't heard it.
  101. # [00:30] <ChrisWilson> mjs: Oh. That's all Microsoft pays me to do. :)
  102. # [00:30] <anne> as long as they don't solve interaction with the DOM E4X prolly isn't interesting
  103. # [00:30] <ChrisWilson> "they"?
  104. # [00:30] <anne> innerHTML as specced by HTML5 sort of does the same
  105. # [00:30] <anne> ChrisWilson, some committee, dunno
  106. # [00:31] <ChrisWilson> :)
  107. # [00:31] <ChrisWilson> Seems like we need a DOM WG again, then.
  108. # [00:31] <Hixie> e4x actually defines how it interacts with the dom
  109. # [00:31] <Hixie> but mozilla never implemented it
  110. # [00:31] <anne> I think we need editors first :(
  111. # [00:31] <Hixie> which seems silly, since it's the key part that makes it useful
  112. # [00:31] <Hixie> e4x with simple dom compat would be awesome
  113. # [00:32] <Hixie> far better than string manipulation of markup
  114. # [00:32] <Hixie> but without it, it's useless
  115. # [00:32] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/3dmodel/example0.html - that uses E4X (for loading COLLADA models), though I'm not sure it's a totally compelling case
  116. # [00:32] <mjs> anyway es4 does not require e4x
  117. # [00:32] <mjs> we (Apple) are doing technical review of es4 now
  118. # [00:32] <ChrisWilson> mjs: agreed, it's not in the current proposal.
  119. # [00:32] <anne> Hixie, I think it was because the implementation in Mozilla was donated by someone
  120. # [00:32] <mjs> we will form our own opinions
  121. # [00:32] <Hixie> anne: no, brendan wrote it
  122. # [00:33] <anne> Hixie, really? oh...
  123. # [00:33] <mjs> I also like Microsoft's compat document
  124. # [00:33] <anne> I missed that then. I thought he just made interaction with HTML <script> "better"
  125. # [00:33] <ChrisWilson> mjs: the more people say "we are doing a technical review of es4, we will form our own opinions" (provided they make them know) the happier I am.
  126. # [00:34] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  127. # [00:34] <ChrisWilson> er, s/know/known
  128. # [00:34] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  129. # [00:34] <anne> ChrisWilson, thanks for the clarifications btw, revolution vs evolution makes sense now; read it too fast :(
  130. # [00:34] <ChrisWilson> np
  131. # [00:35] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.45.182) (Ping timeout)
  132. # [00:35] <mjs> I think fixing de facto compatibility issues is in general good and that Microsoft's document is helpful on this front, however, I don't think compat fixes and features are an either-or proposition
  133. # [00:35] <mjs> just as with HTML5
  134. # [00:36] <ChrisWilson> Now, if the blog commenters would just understand the delimination between script language and DOM, I'd be set.
  135. # [00:36] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: good luck with that one!
  136. # [00:36] <anne> ChrisWilson, also, the interop doc from the jscript guys is pretty neat
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  138. # [00:36] * tH_ is now known as tH
  139. # [00:37] <ChrisWilson> mjs: that's true. Neither I nor the MS guys on the ECMAScript TG1 committee have implied "no new features" - just that the deployment and interop effects on the market should lend to evolution.
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  145. # [02:15] <Philip> RegExp['$`'] -- hmm, that doesn't seem the very best piece of Perl syntax to adopt into JS
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  151. # [03:10] <Lachy_> for some reason, I've started receiving emails from www-xml-blueberry-comments, but I'm not even subscribed to that list. I wonder why?
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  154. # [03:20] <Hixie> Lachy_: check the headers, see where the mail is really coming from
  155. # [03:21] <Lachy_> I did, it's coming from the mailing list
  156. # [03:21] <Lachy_> it has the List-Id header, and all the others
  157. # [03:21] <Hixie> weird
  158. # [03:21] <Lachy_> I mailed sysreq
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  161. # [03:43] <DanC> hgimportsvn is my friend. having local access to the history of the HTML5 draft makes life much nicer. e.g. hg grep --all RelExtensions
  162. # [03:45] <DanC> is http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker computed from the svn commit logs somehow? or is the "Affects:" data somewhere else?
  163. # [03:45] <Hixie> it's computed from the two bits in brackets at the start of each commit
  164. # [03:45] <DanC> ok. good.
  165. # [03:47] <DanC> I don't see a way to navigate to older stuff in the http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker ; is that an exercise left to the reader?
  166. # [03:47] <Hixie> i think so. anne's your man for that, though.
  167. # [03:48] <Hixie> i think it'll give you diffs for any two revs, but the list is just the recent changes
  168. # [03:48] * Parts: Lachy_ (Lachlan@88.91.111.68) (Leaving)
  169. # [03:48] <DanC> I don't see the brackets in r348, 2006-11-22; I guess the brackets don't go back that far?
  170. # [03:48] <Hixie> if you want to patch it, the code is at html5.googlecode.com, iirc
  171. # [03:48] <Hixie> yeah, the brackets are relatively new
  172. # [03:48] <Hixie> sometime this year iirc
  173. # [03:49] <DanC> aha... that's the magic "view source" link I needed. "This project is a catch-all for various pieces of code that support the HTML5 specification's development in various ways." http://code.google.com/p/html5/
  174. # [03:49] <Hixie> i added them because dbaron was complaining he had no way of tracking which changes affected him
  175. # [03:50] <DanC> whew... http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/web-apps-tracker/web-apps-tracker is python; some nearby stuff is php.
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  177. # [03:50] <DanC> SOTD
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  180. # [03:53] <DanC> whee... javascript in HTML in python, no less. http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/web-apps-tracker/web-apps-tracker
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  191. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> anne - any chance you are around right now?
  192. # [06:01] * Joins: smedero (smedero@207.245.69.186)
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  195. # [06:09] <smedero> Hi anne, I was wondering what the status was of your email inquiry regarding publishing the HTML 5 draft... do you know if thats a topic for Nov.1 telcon?
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  198. # [06:15] <smedero> Going by the results of the "publish first" survey I don't see a consensus... http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd7/results
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  200. # [06:24] <DanC> smedero, anne's request was discussed in an earlier telcon; did you see http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-html-wg-minutes#item04 ?
  201. # [06:26] <smedero> Ahh, very sorry... I searched through the mailing list and wiki but forgot to look at the past telcon minutes - I wrongly assumed it came after the last scheduled telcon. (I thought there was a conflict with ChrisW's schedule..)
  202. # [06:27] <DanC> no problem; it's pretty easy to get lost
  203. # [06:27] <smedero> Alright, waiting until after the ftf meeting seems sound. Thanks for digging that up.
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  211. # [07:27] <karl> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ref/ref.html
  212. # [07:27] <karl> It would be cool to have the date on top of the document
  213. # [07:27] <karl> to see when was the last time it has been generated
  214. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> so, I'm trying to figure out a good short description to explain the difference between a genuine "pointing device" and the "directional pad" or "5-way" found on most mobile phones
  215. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> directional pad or D-pad/5-way is basically just the equivalent of arrow keys on a keyboard
  216. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> whereas a genuine pointing device is a mouse, joystick, touchpad, touchscreen, trackball, trackpoint
  217. # [07:43] * DanC wonders if MikeSmith is interested to help with http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  218. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> DanC - yeah, definitely
  219. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> though limited time today due to the need to get BPWG mobileOK issues resolved
  220. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> "A pointing device is any device that allows continuous controlled movement of cursor in two dimensions."
  221. # [07:45] <DanC> wierd... http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/edit-group.php3?search=smith&group=41863 lists you as having a "Public Account"
  222. # [07:46] <DanC> looks like an irrelevant detail
  223. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> yeah, that seems to show I have two public accounts and two team accounts..
  224. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> although ID is the same for all of them
  225. # [07:47] <DanC> voila . you're on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ now
  226. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> sweet
  227. # [07:48] <DanC> are you likely to attend the telcon this week (see /topic)
  228. # [07:48] <DanC> ?
  229. # [07:49] <DanC> I just went over the agenda; I'm reasonably happy with it. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16
  230. # [07:49] <DanC> issue tracking is #4 this week
  231. # [07:49] <DanC> I wish I'd made more progress on test suite organization.
  232. # [07:51] <MikeSmith> DanC - yeah, I'll be on. It's 1am for me, but anyway, I have a weekly BPWG telcon just before that, from 11pm to 00:30am my time
  233. # [07:52] <DanC> oh jooy
  234. # [07:54] * MikeSmith makes note to contact Christian Sejersen and ask him to rejoin the HTMLWG as a Mozilla rep, now that he's moved from Openwave to Mozilla
  235. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> Mark Cataldo has left Openwave also, should be removed from DBWG record for HTMLWG
  236. # [07:57] * MikeSmith wonders what rumors anybody may have heard about what browser if any will be part of the Google Phone package
  237. # [07:57] <DanC> I think the AC reps have to make those updates; feel free to prompt them
  238. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> DanC - Mark Cataldo was the the Openwave AC rep :) I've contacted some other Openwave people and asked them if they can identify another AC rep, but not heard back from them yet.
  239. # [08:00] <karl> DanC: I sent an email already to the AC Rep of Openwave…
  240. # [08:00] <karl> but as Mike said
  241. # [08:00] <karl> the AC Rep left too
  242. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> karl - I e-mailed their CTO but have not gotten any reply and probably won't
  243. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> but I think he will be visiting Tokyo again soon
  244. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> So I can bug him if/when I see him
  245. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> while he's here next
  246. # [08:03] <karl> that could be good
  247. # [08:03] <DanC> mike, any thoughts on ftf attendance (http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/registrants#html ) and the mobile market?
  248. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> DanC - saw Daniel Zucker's name there
  249. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> Dan's company Wake3 announced a couple weeks ago they had ported Webkit to Windows Mobile
  250. # [08:05] <DanC> I see Mitsue-Links, Nokia, Canon, ERICSSON, though I don't know the individuals well
  251. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> I see Marcin Hanclik from ACCESS will be there
  252. # [08:05] <anne> MikeSmith, pong
  253. # [08:05] <DanC> SK Telecom ... I wonder what that is
  254. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> Guido Grassel from Nokia
  255. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> SK Telecom is the number 2 carrier in Korea
  256. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> anne - I need to ask you about some open objections you might have to the BPWG mobileOK Basic Tests 1.0 document
  257. # [08:06] * DanC thinks having MikeSmith around is pretty handy ;-)
  258. # [08:07] <mjs> wow, crazy hour for DanC to be up
  259. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> Tony Grasso from Canon is an SVG guy
  260. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> Mitsue-Links guys I know well. They do website development for many clients here in Japan, but not so much mobile stuff yet.
  261. # [08:08] <karl> :))) mjs for once normal time in Japan :p
  262. # [08:08] <DanC> yeah... 10pm to 2am has been a creative time for me since college, but being up past midnight doesn't mix well with putting the kids on the bus in the morning. and I have a 7am telcon tomorrow. :-/
  263. # [08:09] <mjs> hah
  264. # [08:09] <anne> MikeSmith, lots prolly, but I forgot
  265. # [08:09] * anne leaves it to other people
  266. # [08:09] <MikeSmith> mjs - I don't know what magic happened to convince you and dhyatt to travel to the f2f, but I'm personally really looking forward to meeting you guys
  267. # [08:10] <mjs> MikeSmith: I don't know either :-)
  268. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> anne - unfortunately, we dropped the ball on keeping an accurate record of objections the LC comments tracker for the mobileOK doc
  269. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> ... and I am now in the position of needing to go back and try to reconstruct it so we can move forward to transitioning it to CR
  270. # [08:11] <MikeSmith> by November 13
  271. # [08:12] * karl doesn't want to even think about HTML 5 Last call
  272. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> mjs - I was visiting a member company here in Japan last week and showed them the demo of the client-side DB implementation in Webkit
  273. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> they liked it
  274. # [08:13] <mjs> MikeSmith: cool :-)
  275. # [08:17] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.145.103) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  276. # [08:26] * Quits: laplink (link@62.92.248.70) (Ping timeout)
  277. # [08:38] <anne> MikeSmith, btw, you're violating several SHOULD-level requirements by doing so
  278. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> anne - by doing what, exactly?
  279. # [08:40] <anne> not replying to LC comments
  280. # [08:40] <anne> this is not uncommon for WGs though
  281. # [08:42] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  282. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> well, I've avoided trying to interfere with the decisions of the editors and deferred to the group on disposition of the comments
  283. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> I can see now I should have probably personally tracked some of the comments a lot more closely
  284. # [08:45] <anne> oh sorry, with "you" above I meant the WG
  285. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> yeah
  286. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm playing catch-up on it at this point. The MWI and the WG would like to get it ready for publication in time to announce it at the Mobile Internet World event that starts in Boston on November 13
  287. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> anne - can you take a minute to look at the resolution for LC-1723 and let me know if you still object to that resolution?
  288. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-mobileOK-basic10-tests-20070525/1723?cid=1723
  289. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> I suspect you do, but need to confirm so I can update the comments DB to make it accurate
  290. # [08:51] <anne> the resolution seems silly, but I don't care
  291. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> anne - I'll take that as not objecting.
  292. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> And FWIW, I think the group is planning to do a 1.1 version of the document
  293. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> to refine/correct some issues
  294. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> part of the problem with this mobileOK doc is that it is constrained by requirements in the Best Practices document
  295. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> It seems there are some places in the Best Practices document that will need to be updated before the mobileOk one can be fixed.
  296. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> I think
  297. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> Anyway, thanks
  298. # [09:00] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
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  301. # [09:27] <Hixie> DanC: hyatt and i wrote a joint response, i just sent it
  302. # [09:28] <Hixie> hopefully we won't have to write more of these
  303. # [09:28] <Hixie> non-technical things are boring
  304. # [09:29] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@87.102.45.182)
  305. # [09:29] <mjs> joint response to what?
  306. # [09:29] * tH_ is now known as tH
  307. # [09:29] <Hixie> the whole xhtml5 naming debate nonsense
  308. # [09:29] <Hixie> danc asked the editors to take a position
  309. # [09:29] <Hixie> so we did
  310. # [09:29] <mjs> oh no, is that flaring up again
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  321. # [12:23] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Oct/0065.html
  322. # [12:24] <anne> (charmod, html5, i18n, etc.)
  323. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> me notes:
  324. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> [[
  325. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> "When a user agent would otherwise use the ISO-8859-1 encoding, it must instead use the Windows-1252 encoding."
  326. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> from HTML5 is clearly not conforming to CharMod.
  327. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> ]]
  328. # [12:27] <anne> conclusion: update CharMod
  329. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> heh
  330. # [12:27] <Lachy> my conclusion was ignore CharMod, but that works too :-)
  331. # [12:28] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  332. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> about his final comment, I'm wondering more and more how realistic it is to expect that the group can produce a spec both of implementors and creators of content
  333. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> Perhaps content creators don't need specs
  334. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> they need authoring guidelines
  335. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> which are not the same thing as specs at all
  336. # [12:30] <anne> the people writing the authoring guidelines need a spec though
  337. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> right, which they will have
  338. # [12:30] <anne> and for people who are anal retentive this is important to have too
  339. # [12:34] <Lachy> I don't get Martin's point about 8.2.2.1 being innappropriate for content authors. That's irrelevant, since that section is aimed at impelemented. The authoring section is elsewhere in the spec
  340. # [12:34] <Lachy> namely, 3.7.5.4
  341. # [12:35] * Joins: smedero (smedero@158.130.16.191)
  342. # [12:36] <jmb> Lachy: perhaps that's not clear to him
  343. # [12:36] <anne> smedero, do I still need to answer some question?
  344. # [12:36] * anne recalls seeing a ping in his log
  345. # [12:37] <smedero> hi anne, no. DanC brought me up to speed.
  346. # [12:37] <smedero> thanks for checking though.
  347. # [12:37] <anne> Lachy, I don't recall, does that section point back to the authoring section?
  348. # [12:38] <Lachy> I don't think so
  349. # [12:39] <anne> I think it makes sense to link to authoring sections from implementor sections where it's not obvious
  350. # [12:40] <Lachy> anne, are you intending to come to Oslo any time soon for any reason?
  351. # [12:41] <anne> December maybe
  352. # [12:41] <anne> that's not soon though
  353. # [12:41] <Lachy> ok, never mind
  354. # [12:41] <anne> hmm, anything interesting coming up?
  355. # [12:42] <Lachy> no, I'm just looking for someone who can pick up a laptop for me in the USA and bring it back to Oslo for me
  356. # [12:42] <anne> chaals, lars erik, yngve
  357. # [12:43] <anne> there might be more options, don't recall
  358. # [12:43] <Lachy> I already asked Chaals. he said yes, but won't be back in Oslo for another 2 weeks after Boston
  359. # [12:43] <Lachy> Lars hasn't responded to me yet
  360. # [12:44] <anne> ah, https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es4-discuss/ is public now
  361. # [12:44] <anne> or has it always been public?
  362. # [12:46] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  363. # [12:46] <Dashiva> No
  364. # [12:46] <Dashiva> I remember I signed up for the list to view it
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  367. # [12:51] * MikeSmith wonders whether any other organization has objected to a spec being too detailed/granular
  368. # [13:06] <anne> hmm, that people name the XHTML2 WG the XHTML WG, including members of said WG, makes things utterly confusing
  369. # [13:08] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  370. # [13:10] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  371. # [13:19] <anne> Julian, if it's you, it's the XHTML2 WG
  372. # [13:20] <Julian> Yes, it's me.
  373. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> Lachy, Håkon and Erik Dahlström both going to be at TPAC also
  374. # [13:23] <Julian> You are right that XHTML2 is the correct name, and I'll try to remember that. That being said, I don't see how that's relevant for the discussion.
  375. # [13:23] <anne> ed is in Sweden
  376. # [13:23] <anne> Julian, it's confusing
  377. # [13:23] <anne> (ed being Erik Dahlström)
  378. # [13:24] <Lachy> ah, ok. I'll ask Håkon
  379. # [13:26] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  380. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> anne, hsivonen, jgraham - any specific plans yet to meet for dinner next week?
  381. # [13:36] <anne> not yet
  382. # [13:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have already scheduled another dinner for Monday, but for the rest of the week my dinners are unscheduled
  383. # [13:37] <beowulf> scheduled dinners, mmmm
  384. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> k, we should try to find a night that works for everybody
  385. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> and go somewhere cheap
  386. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> like, pizza
  387. # [13:39] * Quits: anne (annevk@86.90.70.28) (Ping timeout)
  388. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - you seem to have you head down working on something lately. The jing stuff still?
  389. # [13:42] * Joins: anne (annevk@86.90.70.28)
  390. # [13:42] * anne needs dinner next Saturday, Sunday, etc.
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  394. # [13:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've worked on extracting UI text from the spec and on making Jing expose RELAX NG errors in a way that allows identification and rich reformatting of the messages outside Jing
  395. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I see. Did you have a chance to correspond with George Bina yet about the Jing stuff?
  396. # [13:47] * anne notices https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es4-discuss/2007-October/001271.html
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  400. # [13:47] <anne> no follow-up unfortunately
  401. # [13:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes, he has some cool stuff in the pipeline
  402. # [13:49] <hsivonen> the ARIA telecon is in 12 minutes, right?
  403. # [13:52] <anne> Oh, I thought it was cancelled, oops
  404. # [13:52] <anne> I can make it though
  405. # [13:53] <anne> yeah: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0290.html
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  411. # [14:47] <Philip> Is <html><svg><g id="x"/></svg><svg><g id="x"/></svg></html> invalid because of duplicated IDs, or is there some kind of subdocument scoping there?
  412. # [14:48] <anne> invalid
  413. # [14:53] <Philip> Okay
  414. # [14:54] * Philip doesn't bother fixing his code, since it works fine in practice
  415. # [14:54] <anne> :)
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  419. # [15:07] <anne> bah, I don't like playCount versus playcount but it seems HTML is full of that
  420. # [15:07] <anne> it's not intiutive at all what the DOM attribute name is
  421. # [15:14] <anne> The Forms TF now has #forms-tf as IRC channel (on this server). I suppose we'll use it for telcons. Not sure about other things.
  422. # [15:16] <anne> for instance contenteditable - conentEditable, accept-charset - acceptCharset, http-equiv, httpEquiv, accesskey - accessKey, etc.
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  426. # [16:30] * anne is confused by shepazu
  427. # [16:33] * shepazu is confused that anne would be confused by requests for technical details, rather than handwaving
  428. # [16:35] <anne> well, I'm sorry, it's like suggesting that <img> should from now on be written as <img>foobar</img> which is confusing to me
  429. # [16:36] <anne> context: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-cdf/2007Oct/thread.html#msg53
  430. # [16:37] <anne> (Member-only)
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  432. # [16:47] * DanC looks over http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 one more time before annoucing it as tomorrow's agenda... wonders if Chris Wilson has any input to this week's agenda
  433. # [16:48] <DanC> ChrisWilson, we sorta said we should refine the ftf agenda, but I haven't found much inspiration. have you?
  434. # [16:49] <Lachy> is there a telcon on tomorrow? What time?
  435. # [16:49] * DanC refers Lachy to the /topic
  436. # [16:51] <anne> Lachy, 17:00
  437. # [16:51] <Lachy> ok, that's a reasonable time for me
  438. # [16:51] <DanC> 17:00 for what, anne?
  439. # [16:51] <anne> DanC, for Lachy and myself
  440. # [16:51] <Lachy> DanC, I'm UTC+1 now
  441. # [16:51] <DanC> oh frap; did I get the timezone wrong again?
  442. # [16:51] <Lachy> I'm living in Oslo, working at Opera
  443. # [16:52] <anne> DanC, no, I think it was 18:00 here before so given the timechange from last weekend this makes a decent amount of sense :)
  444. # [16:52] <DanC> ah... 1700 in some timezone other than UTC.
  445. # [16:52] <DanC> ah. welcome to this side of the planet, Lachy. ;-)
  446. # [16:53] <Lachy> thanks! I've been here a month already
  447. # [17:01] <anne> krijnh, feel like monitoring #forms-tf too?
  448. # [17:06] <DanC> you make a forms tf homepage, didn't you, anne? I don't see a link from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/
  449. # [17:07] * Joins: hober (ted@68.107.112.172)
  450. # [17:07] <DanC> found it... http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/ ... now how do I add the link so I can find it next time?
  451. # [17:09] <DanC> re "charter review period? (what do we submit to whom and when)", the TF should just keep the 2 WGs informed of progress, such as agreeing to a charter
  452. # [17:10] <DanC> "The Forms Task Force expects to be done by July 2008." is the main thing I need from a TF charter, so I'm happy with http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal
  453. # [17:11] <ChrisWilson> DanC: yes, we need to refine the FTF agenda. Can we do so between 12-2 PST today (not the whole two hours, but during that time)?
  454. # [17:11] <DanC> that's somewhat inconsistent with taking HTML5 to last call in Q2 2008, but that milestone needs updating anyway
  455. # [17:11] <DanC> 12 PST is 2p Chicago... yeah, I'll be here
  456. # [17:12] <anne> DanC, I've no idea how to update public-forms-tf archive pages
  457. # [17:13] <anne> I suppose I should update the home page at some point to mention the IRC channel
  458. # [17:17] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  459. # [17:18] * DanC has asked the systems team to put a link at the bottom of archive pages to the form for editing umpteen times, with no joy. :-/
  460. # [17:19] * DanC finds http://www.w3.org/2001/11/list-customize ... suspects it's team-only ...
  461. # [17:19] * anne can access the page
  462. # [17:19] * anne can't select a mailing list though
  463. # [17:19] <DanC> ah... perhaps Lachy can?
  464. # [17:20] <anne> yeah, just thinking that might be possible
  465. # [17:21] <Lachy> yeah, I can access it and get the public-forms-tf
  466. # [17:21] <Lachy> what would you like me to do?
  467. # [17:21] <anne> add a link to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/
  468. # [17:21] <anne> plus maybe a small description that this is the Forms TF and all
  469. # [17:22] * anne missed the bit about starting Thursday afternoon during the W3CTP; sleep! :)
  470. # [17:22] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Connection reset by peer)
  471. # [17:22] * DanC would like Lachy to put his name in the footer, too
  472. # [17:23] <Lachy> ok
  473. # [17:23] <DanC> thanks again for doing that list maintenance, Lachy.
  474. # [17:23] <Lachy> no worries
  475. # [17:24] <DanC> when you submit that list-customize form, I think it doesn't actually take effect until the list archive update is triggered by (1) a new message or (2) a daily cron job
  476. # [17:25] <Lachy> yeah, it says that in the instructions at the top
  477. # [17:26] <DanC> hmm... did you guys /invite RRSAgent to the forms TF call? I don't see anything at http://www.w3.org/2007/10/31-forms-tf*,access*
  478. # [17:26] <Lachy> In the footer, should I say something like: List maintainer: _Lachlan Hunt_, with a link to my site or email address or something?
  479. # [17:26] <DanC> ah... hasn't happened yet
  480. # [17:26] <DanC> yes, just like that, Lachy
  481. # [17:27] <DanC> both your email address and site, please
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  484. # [17:28] <anne> DanC, there's no call yet
  485. # [17:28] <DanC> right
  486. # [17:28] <anne> I asked krijnh to join for permanent minutes, but I don't think he's listening in
  487. # [17:29] <Lachy> ah, I see. There's a special field for that information, separate from the footer
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  490. # [17:30] <Lachy> The header now says: The _Forms Task Force_ per March 2007 _HTML WG charter_ and _Forms WG charter_. (with appropriate links)
  491. # [17:31] <DanC> good
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  510. # [19:36] <jmb> 6
  511. # [19:37] <jmb> er. oops ;)
  512. # [19:37] <billmason> I'll see and raise you 5.
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  517. # [20:11] * DanC returns from lunch, looks around for ChrisWilson re http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
  518. # [20:11] * Quits: smedero_ (smedero@158.130.16.191) (Quit: smedero_)
  519. # [20:14] <ChrisWilson> Danc: let me run get some lunch and bring it back to my desk, 10 minutes or so...
  520. # [20:14] <DanC> no rush
  521. # [20:15] <Philip> DanC: <abbr class="dtend" title="2007-09-11">10 Nov 2007</abbr> looks confusing
  522. # [20:16] <kingryan> that looks like a typo
  523. # [20:16] <kingryan> should be 2007-11-10
  524. # [20:17] <DanC> no, it's not a typo...
  525. # [20:17] <billmason> Well, the abbr for the "8" must be. <abbr class="dtstart" title="2007-09-08">8</abbr>
  526. # [20:17] <kingryan> the title value says "11 September 2007", while the text says otherwise
  527. # [20:19] <DanC> I can't find a particularly good quote from http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/rfc2445#sec4.8.2.2
  528. # [20:20] <Philip> It's confusing even if it's not actually wrong :-)
  529. # [20:20] <DanC> but this is the way iCalendar works. if a meeting goes from 8 to to 11am it's dtstart 0800 , dtend 1100. likewise, if it starts on the 8th and goes thru the 10th, the dtend is -11
  530. # [20:20] <Philip> particularly since the title text is presented to users with no context about how to interpret it
  531. # [20:21] <DanC> 11 September? where is that?
  532. # [20:21] <Philip> Oh, I hadn't noticed that
  533. # [20:22] <Philip> DanC: It says 2007-09 but should be 2007-11
  534. # [20:22] * Philip was originally thinking of the -11 vs '10' difference, though
  535. # [20:22] <DanC> oh. phpht. wrong month. fixed in 1.10
  536. # [20:24] * ChrisWilson wanders back in with rotisserie chicken
  537. # [20:24] <kingryan> DanC: yeah, I was commenting on the wrong month
  538. # [20:26] <DanC> took a while to penetrate my tiny brain
  539. # [20:27] <DanC> so how goes the reboot on day 2?
  540. # [20:27] <DanC> er... day 5? http://theryanking.com/entries/2007/10/26/what-i-did-yesterday/
  541. # [20:29] * DanC hopes kingryan won't get completely swallowed up in new work, and continues to frequent these parts
  542. # [20:29] <kingryan> DanC: I'm still shutting things down :)
  543. # [20:30] <kingryan> DanC: believe it or not, I may actually have more time to spend around here
  544. # [20:30] <kingryan> or, rather, more productive input
  545. # [20:31] <DanC> here's hoping
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  552. # [21:08] <anne> mjs, should we discuss HDP now or so?
  553. # [21:08] <anne> you suggested something like that yesterday
  554. # [21:08] <mjs> anne: gimme 5 min, gotta go from a conference room to my office
  555. # [21:08] <anne> sure
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  559. # [21:41] <DanC> ChrisWilson, any thoughts on the agenda? I'm starting to feel like I need a nap
  560. # [21:48] <ChrisWilson> whoops
  561. # [21:48] <ChrisWilson> sorry
  562. # [21:49] <ChrisWilson> Where were our notes from our last discussion?
  563. # [21:54] <DanC> other than http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 ? I dunno
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  575. # [23:08] <Hixie> DanC: please encourage martin to send his detailed and useful feedback to the html wg so i can easily add it to my pile
  576. # [23:10] <DanC> he said "forward as appropriate", so I will. you're welcome to beat me to it
  577. # [23:12] * Quits: timbl (timbl@208.54.94.100) (Quit: timbl)
  578. # [23:13] <Hixie> thanks
  579. # [23:13] <Hixie> (i'd do it myself but all i have is the www-archive page)
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  587. # Session Close: Thu Nov 01 00:00:00 2007

The end :)