/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-05 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Nov 05 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [16:37] * Topic is 'HTML WG meets near BOS Thu-Sat http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 decision to release HTML design principles, HTML 5 spec in progress http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/ (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
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# [17:35] <Hixie> ok, defined fragids
# [17:35] <Hixie> IE is not very compliant at all
# [17:35] <Hixie> but then it was very different to other UAs
# [17:36] * anne checks
# [17:39] <anne> ah, so other browsers only have <a name> as fallback
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# [17:42] <Hixie> my tests for this were at http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/navigation/fragids/
# [17:45] <anne> for http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/navigation/fragids/004.html#test :target doesn't make sense
# [17:45] <anne> this may be the case for some other tests too
# [17:45] <anne> 003 for instance
# [17:45] <Hixie> yeah i just have the same style block for everywhere
# [17:46] <anne> 005, 006 too
# [17:46] <anne> maybe there the block should be green by default
# [17:49] <smedero_> huh, test 013 is an interesting one. Safari 3.0.4 isn't too happy about it... gecko seems cool with it though. must admit I don't have opera handy... haven't installed it since migrating to OS X 10.5
# [17:49] <anne> Hixie, media="" is also "all" apparently
# [17:49] <anne> (media attribute with the empty string value)
# [17:50] <Hixie> isn't that defined by mq?
# [17:52] <anne> the syntax doesn't allow nothing, it requires at least <media_query> which currently requires at least a <media_type> but will prolly change to either require a type or media feature
# [17:53] <Hixie> well i think mq is on the table for this css meeting so i'll raise it then
# [17:53] <Hixie> if i remember
# [17:53] <anne> fair enough, I was planning to bring it up as well
# [17:54] <anne> it's not entirely clear to me namely how media="invalid" maps to the CSSOM stuff
# [17:55] <anne> oh, someone Formally Objects to publishing HDP
# [17:56] <smedero_> :(
# [17:56] <Hixie> ooo
# [17:56] <Hixie> uri?
# [17:56] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
# [17:56] <Hixie> ta
# [17:57] <MikeSmith> Webmaster
# [17:57] <Philip> Not me :-)
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> Philip - maybe if you formally un-object, you will cancel each other out
# [17:58] <smedero_> hahaha.
# [17:58] <smedero_> A formal objection over examples used seems a bit strong.
# [17:58] <Hixie> well that seems like an easy objection to resolve
# [17:59] <anne> remove all examples?
# [17:59] <gsnedders> still none, perhaps more surprisingly, against the actual spec
# [17:59] * smedero_ is now known as smedero
# [18:01] <Hixie> anne: just remove the controversial ones and replace them with something that isn't controversial... though maybe if the examples are controversial, that really means that the principles are being debated by proxy and the formal objection should be treated an objection to the principles
# [18:03] <anne> i think the objection is against the principles document endorsing design decisions in HTML 5 that are based on the principles
# [18:03] <anne> which is a kind of circular problem
# [18:03] <Hixie> yeah in retrospect i don't understand the objection
# [18:04] <Hixie> does he object to the decisions?
# [18:04] * gsnedders is still trying to work out how to get to, and away from, Apple's HQ. Surely once your on Infinite Loop you can never get off it?
# [18:04] <anne> there are actually a few break points :)
# [18:04] * anne was there once
# [18:04] <gsnedders> But yeah, it would make more sense to object to the principles than examples of the principles being used
# [18:05] * gsnedders has never been to north CA, ever
# [18:05] <anne> same for me when I was your age
# [18:06] <gsnedders> what a difference six(?) years makes :)
# [18:06] * anne heads to lunch
# [18:06] <Philip> The principles document is *explicitly* endorsing the design decisions, which makes it harder to argue against those particular decisions since people can just point at the examples instead of thinking about whether the principle should apply in that case
# [18:06] <Philip> and since any changes in those decisions would require extra work, to update the HDP examples as well as updating the spec
# [18:07] <Philip> s/since //
# [18:07] <Hixie> i love the people suggesting that we publish the same version that the whatwg published, btw
# [18:07] <Hixie> given how much it would reinforce the idea of the w3c being slow and bureaucratic...
# [18:08] <gsnedders> what? the W3C is slow and bureaucratic? oh.
# [18:08] <Hixie> also, brad's suggestion that we don't publish any drafts before reaching CR may someone be missing the way w3c process works
# [18:09] <Hixie> oh wait, these are comments about the diff doc
# [18:09] <Hixie> nevermind
# [18:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: can't you run the header relation algorithm in your head? :(
# [18:10] <Philip> By "existing non-W3C version", does he mean the one on the WHATWG wiki?
# [18:10] <Hixie> i was paging down and missed the header algogether
# [18:10] <Hixie> Philip: that was about the spec
# [18:10] <Hixie> i merged the two tables accidentally
# [18:10] <Lachy> wow, not publishing the first draft till it's ready for CR doesn't even make sense?
# [18:11] <Philip> Hixie: He said "existing non-W3C version" about the differences document
# [18:12] <Hixie> Lachy: the comment just meant not to publish the diffs doc till the spec is in cr
# [18:12] <Hixie> Philip: oh. weird.
# [18:13] <Lachy> oh, I didn't realise there was a question about the diffs doc in the same results page
# [18:14] <Lachy> why didn't DanC do a separate survey for each of the HDP, diffs and spec, or combine all 3 into one?
# [18:14] <Philip> It would be nice if the results page could fit on one screen - they could just have a series of happy, sad and angry faces to indicate people's responses, with tooltips for further details
# [18:16] <Lachy> it would be nice if the results could be sorted by response (yes, no, etc) instead of the current order in which people responded
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# [18:22] <Lachy> Hixie, what time/date will the HTMLWG meeting be in Boston?
# [18:22] <Lachy> I should be able to phone in briefly if they have the telcon bridge set up
# [18:24] <MikeSmith> Lachy - I'll check to see if we actually will have a telcon bridge
# [18:26] <Hixie> Lachy: 8:30am to 5pm, i think.
# [18:26] <Lachy> just don't make it as boring as the WAF WG meeting. I phoned in today and listened to Anne Marcos'
# [18:26] <Lachy> Anne's and Marcos' presentations
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# [18:27] <Lachy> well, I'm not gonna be on the phone all day. I could call in in the morning for half an hour or so.
# [18:28] <Lachy> Ping me on IRC when something interesting is being discussed
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# [18:32] <MikeSmith> Lachy - it's looking like we might not have enough people calling in to justify setting up a bridge
# [18:33] <Lachy> ok, but I assume people will have IRC, so I can just participate this way if people are keeping minutes in here
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# [18:38] <Hixie> Lachy: i'm not aware of any way to not make these meetings boring. that's why i've been so against them.
# [18:38] <Hixie> we'll see if the unconference style helps, though i doubt it'll work well with irc or phone
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# [21:42] <Cerbera> evenin' all (at least, it's evening in the UK)
# [21:42] <gsnedders> evenin'
# [21:43] <Cerbera> looking forward to the HTMLWG meetup :)
# [21:44] <Cerbera> jgraham's advice about looking on Flickr for photos of other attendants worked brilliantly
# [21:45] * gsnedders wishes he could be there
# [21:46] <gsnedders> But there again, I get school instead! Yay!
# [21:47] <Cerbera> lucky you! I work part-time for the school I used to attend
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# [21:47] * gsnedders needs to do his homework
# [21:48] <gsnedders> If only I could get away with working on specs for the scientific subjects I'm doing :P
# [21:49] <Cerbera> I *never* did homework. still have some of the detention slips to prove it
# [21:49] * Philip needs to read (and understand) stuff in order to set questions for other people to do, which is unpleasantly time-consuming
# [21:50] <gsnedders> Cerbera: heh. over the past couple of years I've been ill, so I've not had to.
# [21:51] <gsnedders> brb
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# [21:52] <anne> Cerbera, hey!
# [21:53] <anne> Cerbera, you around already or leaving later?
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# [21:57] <gsnedders> (back)
# [21:59] <gsnedders> Cerbera: needless to say, I have reasons for staying on the good side of at least one of my teachers]
# [22:01] <anne> Cerbera, around Boston, and travelling to Boston, that is
# [22:17] <Cerbera> anne: I'm not in Boston yet
# [22:17] <Cerbera> anne: I arrive on the evening of the 7th
# [22:19] <anne> oh, so you'll miss the planery day
# [22:19] <anne> that's too bad
# [22:21] <Cerbera> yeah, you'll still be there after that though?
# [22:23] <anne> that's the plan :)
# [22:23] * anne has to represent this Norwegian browser company
# [22:24] <gsnedders> formal objection for spec. Philip TAYLOR.
# [22:24] <Cerbera> anne: hang on, I'm talking bullshit (as if that were news)
# [22:24] <Cerbera> anne: I need to check my tickets because I've got confused
# [22:26] <Cerbera> anne: no, I was right the first time. arrive on evening of Wednesday 7th. depart on evening of Saturday 10th
# [22:27] * Cerbera is now known as Ben
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# [22:27] <anne> I'm leaving Saturday too
# [22:27] <Ben> I'm having a 2 day vacation in Iceland on the way back
# [22:27] <Ben> never been before
# [22:27] <Ben> it actually made the flight cheaper
# [22:28] * gsnedders has to try and get to the W3CTP next year
# [22:29] <Ben> gsnedders, I thought you were middle-aged from your contributions on public-html!
# [22:29] <gsnedders> Ben: No, 15 :)
# [22:30] <gsnedders> Ben: that said, you're far from the first person to think that
# [22:30] <gsnedders> I'm always amazed at how old I manage to come across.
# [22:30] <Ben> in 2 years time you can own a Vauxhall Nova, give it a tasteless plastic bodykit,then nobody will be in doubt of your age
# [22:32] <gsnedders> ewwww
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# [22:34] <anne> Ben, Iceland, nice
# [22:34] * anne would like to go there some day
# [22:34] <gsnedders> My sister/brother-in-law went one/two years ago and enjoyed it
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# [22:36] <gsnedders> Ben: to ask you my normal question: in what way do I seem middle-aged?
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# [22:37] <Ben> gsnedders, not quite sure...seemed to be speaking from experience, wise to old mistakes, stuff like that
# [22:37] <Philip> gsnedders: I think it's the beard
# [22:38] <gsnedders> Philip: yeah, I do need a shave, that's true.
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# [22:44] <Dashiva> The beard definitely comes through strongly on the internet, yeah :P
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# [22:46] <Ben> http://projectcerbera.com/misc/images/ben(2006-06-23).jpg - that photo of me is well over a year old...I had my hair cut last week (unhelpfully)
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# [22:49] <Ben> anne, Opera thinks that URI ends at ").jpg" in IRC. avoiding that but ending them at "). " might work better?
# [22:52] <anne> For these type of bug reports I'm afraid I can't do better than pointing you to https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/
# [22:52] <Dashiva> (or say it's a well-known bug :)
# [22:52] <anne> Which is probably good in general to use for bug reports because I might forget :)
# [22:52] <anne> Dashiva, fair enough
# [22:52] <Dashiva> Although another dupe might help with popularity, who knows
# [22:52] <anne> I wonder if there's been research into URI detection in plain text strings
# [22:53] <gsnedders> <http://stuff.gsnedders.com/me.jpg> — that photo of me is from July. I look the same, with slightly shorter hair, and with stubble now (which needs to be shaven).
# [23:04] <Ben> anne, it's something I've noticed problems with in comment systems and forum systems for years. I haven't done detailed research, though
# [23:07] <karl> marquee-count
# [23:07] <karl> marquee-counter
# [23:09] <anne> wrong channel karl :)
# [23:09] <Ben> collect the common patterns for the starts and ends of URIs. collect the common ways people dump URIs in text. look for the most robust patterns?
# [23:10] <anne> karl, you want #css
# [23:10] <karl> ahah
# [23:10] <karl> damn
# [23:10] <karl> jetlag
# [23:10] * anne wonders if karl is in the wrong room all together :p
# [23:10] <karl> very hard right now
# [23:12] <Ben> anne, maybe that Norwegian browser company would like to sponsor me to do that research? ;)
# [23:13] <anne> maybe
# [23:13] * anne doesn't go about such stuff
# [23:14] <gsnedders> my thought would be whitespace delimited string starting with one of the major schemes, matching the IRI production in RFC3987
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# [23:16] <Philip> Could any method work if someone wrote http://example.com?
# [23:16] <anne> gsnedders, doesn't work for <http://foobar.com/>
# [23:16] <gsnedders> punctuation or whitespace?
# [23:17] <anne> whitespace
# [23:18] <gsnedders> I mean, as an edit for my above proposal
# [23:18] <gsnedders> so it allows it to be delimited by either
# [23:19] <Philip> Maybe you could determine all plausible-looking URLs, download them all, then pick the one that looks least like an error message
# [23:19] <Ben> Philip, that's kind of using a nuclear warhead to crack a nut, isn't it?
# [23:21] <Philip> Ben: Indeed - that's always great fun
# [23:22] * gsnedders is listening to Problems by Sex Pistols from Never Mind The Bollocks Here's The Sex Pistols
# [23:22] <gsnedders> (
# [23:22] <gsnedders> (perhaps appropriate)
# [23:23] <Ben> I was thinking of calling my presentation "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's Native Access" but it might have ruffled the wrong feathers
# [23:25] <Dashiva> I wonder what the sex pistols would think of that
# [23:25] <Dashiva> Is native access radical?
# [23:25] <Ben> no, it's just a fancy name for the table header auto algorithm which has been talked about and researched a bit
# [23:25] <gsnedders> !&£@ no.
# [23:26] <MikeSmith> never mind the sex pistols, here's HTML5
# [23:26] <Dashiva> Maybe we should reserve it for the really awesome changes
# [23:26] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: HTML 6.2 is more radical
# [23:27] <Ben> well, if we spec other auto algorithms then it can include them as well. I'm not claiming ownership of the words "Native Access" or anything :)
# [23:27] <Dashiva> I'm sure you could sell some shirts with "Never mind the XHTML2, here's the HTML5" or something
# [23:27] <Ben> Dashiva, that's genius!
# [23:27] <gsnedders> Dashiva: 5 > 2
# [23:27] <gsnedders> Dashiva: <http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/Index>
# [23:27] <Dashiva> gsnedders: That one was way too subtle
# [23:27] <Ben> 5 > 2 is lame, imho
# [23:27] <gsnedders> Dashiva: that's the entire point.
# [23:28] <Dashiva> No, being too subtle is just silly
# [23:28] <Ben> Sex Pistols vs. Algebra. hmm...
# [23:28] <gsnedders> Dashiva: neither me or mjs would actually wear it if it were blatant
# [23:28] <Dashiva> Might as well wear an empty shirt and wait for people to ask you why there's nothing on your shirt
# [23:28] <Ben> lol
# [23:30] <mjs> the subtlety is indeed deliberate
# [23:30] <mjs> I'm actually worried it may be so unsubtle as to piss off the xhtml2 folks
# [23:30] <gsnedders> mjs: was it not us against everyone else at the time?
# [23:30] * mjs shrugs
# [23:30] <mjs> don't remember
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# [23:31] <gsnedders> the things I get up to when I should be asleep…
# [23:31] <Ben> I keep wondering who "Ben" is.
# [23:31] <Ben> and how did he make his name blue
# [23:32] * gsnedders giggles (in a really girly way)
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# [23:38] <MikeSmith> news on Google phone
# [23:38] <MikeSmith> http://news.google.com/?ncl=1123174168&hl=en&topic=h
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# [23:42] <MikeSmith> So does this Google software set for mobile devices include a Web engine?
# [23:44] <Philip> http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/android_overview.html - "... a developer can combine information from the web with data on an individual's mobile phone -- such as the user's contacts, calendar, or geographic location ..."
# [23:44] <Lachy> I suspect mobile vendors will be free to choose any web engine they like
# [23:44] <Philip> http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/android_faq.html - "It leverages web and Internet content to provide advanced services such as mobile mashups."
# [23:44] <Philip> Sounds kind of light on technical detail at the moment
# [23:48] <Lachy> at least a few of the alliance members are partners with Opera, and so they would probably continue to ship Opera with their phones if and when they adopt android
# [23:49] <Hixie> Lachy: it's free software, by definition they're free to do anything they want. as will you be. :-)
# [23:50] <Lachy> I realise that
# [23:51] <Philip> But they're members of an Alliance which might impose certain rules on its members
# [23:51] <Philip> (Argh! Auto-playing video :-( )
# [23:52] <Lachy> maybe, but AIUI, android is effectively just an operating system and given that their intention is to be open, it wouldn't seem realistic for them to impose any restrictions on the applications they can include
# [23:55] <mjs> I'd love to see technical specs and/or a demo
# [23:55] <mjs> I guess that will come on the 12th
# [23:55] <Lachy> In this article http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071105-its-official-google-announces-open-source-mobile-phone-os-android.html
# [23:55] <hsivonen> how does it compare to maemo and openmoko? it's a linux for handhelds distro, right?
# [23:55] <Lachy> it says "aspects of the platform will be made available to handset manufacturers for free under the Apache license."
# [23:55] <Lachy> I thought they would have to use GPL, since it's Linux based
# [23:56] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
# [23:56] * Philip wonders who is Sauron to the Alliance
# [23:57] <mjs> Windows Mobile
# [23:57] <mjs> is Sauron
# [23:57] <mjs> as far as I can tell from their positioning
# [23:58] <Philip> Lachy: http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/android_faq.html talks about the licence
# [23:58] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
# [23:59] <Lachy> I saw that. It still doesn't answer my question though.
# Session Close: Tue Nov 06 00:00:00 2007

The end :)