/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 06 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] * mjs suspects it will contain other non-Apache-license-compatible software
  4. # [00:01] <mjs> assuming it includes a browser, there's only two open source engine choices
  5. # [00:01] <mjs> and it would be un-Google-like to not have a browser
  6. # [00:02] <Philip> Maybe they're writing their own open source browser engine! That would be totally sensible
  7. # [00:02] <Lachy> Google will probably want to include Firefox
  8. # [00:03] <Lachy> Philip, I thought rumors of the gBrowser died a long time ago
  9. # [00:06] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)
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  11. # [00:10] <mjs> http://powazek.com/posts/758
  12. # [00:11] <Hixie> can't argue with that
  13. # [00:11] <Hixie> it's almost as bad as announcing a phone 6 months before it ships
  14. # [00:11] <Hixie> oh wait :-P
  15. # [00:11] * Joins: sbuluf (eqvp@200.49.132.126)
  16. # [00:14] <Lachy> lots of companies announce software months before release. MS announced IE 18 months before release, Vista about 6 years before; Apple announced Leopard 2 or 3 years ago
  17. # [00:15] <Hixie> indeed
  18. # [00:15] <Philip> HTML5 won't be done for decades
  19. # [00:15] <Hixie> i don't really approve of it
  20. # [00:15] <Hixie> Philip: there's a difference between "not done" and "not there"
  21. # [00:15] <Hixie> html5 is very much there
  22. # [00:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: you around? do you have food plans?
  23. # [00:16] <Hixie> anne: same question
  24. # [00:16] <Lachy> although, when Apple announce products, doesn't Steve Jobs show off some actual features of the device/software, so we know there's something really there, even if we can't get at it yet?
  25. # [00:16] <Hixie> and what do people think about <a validate="">?
  26. # [00:17] * Lachy hasn't seen validate="" yet
  27. # [00:17] <anne> Hixie, I'm happy to join food plans
  28. # [00:17] <Hixie> search for "validate attribute in <A>"
  29. # [00:17] <anne> Hixie, I'm sitting relatively close to you :)
  30. # [00:17] <Hixie> anne: i know :-)
  31. # [00:18] <Philip> Validate tries to protect against an attacker changing the link target, if I remember corrcetly; but an attacker could keep the content and change the HTTP headers to do something nasty (like redirect or whatever), which sounds like a problem
  32. # [00:18] <Philip> s/ce/ec/
  33. # [00:19] <Hixie> good point
  34. # [00:19] <Philip> (and you can't validate the headers too, because they're always going to change)
  35. # [00:19] <Lachy> Hixie, I can't find it. Have you checked it in yet?
  36. # [00:21] <Hixie> Lachy: no i mean what do people think about the proposal that was sent to the list about it
  37. # [00:21] <Hixie> (whatwg list)
  38. # [00:21] <Lachy> oh. Since when do you start proposing things on the list before you put them in the spec???
  39. # [00:22] <anne> other people proposed it
  40. # [00:22] <Hixie> i didn't propose it :-)
  41. # [00:23] <Philip> It sounds like validate would also break incremental loading (since you'd have to get the whole thing in order to hash it in order to decide whether it's safe to load), which is irritating for iframes and images and Flash
  42. # [00:23] <Hixie> true
  43. # [00:23] <Hixie> (the processing model for it wasn't proposed)
  44. # [00:23] <Lachy> aargh! for some reason, I never received the inital mail on that thread, and the rest got marked as read with 300 others I didn't bother reading
  45. # [00:24] <Lachy> oh, wait. Yes I did. It just started with Re: in the subject line
  46. # [00:25] <Ben> Hixie, you said to come here about meeting up with people? I arrive in Boston on Wednesday the 7th, in the evening. (Ben 'Cerbera' Millard)
  47. # [00:26] <Hixie> cool!
  48. # [00:26] <Hixie> yes indeed!
  49. # [00:26] <Hixie> just come in here and give a yell :-)
  50. # [00:26] <Hixie> as i did earlier with anne and dinner :-)
  51. # [00:27] <Ben> I see...that would work if I was bringing a computer
  52. # [00:28] <anne> you can try to find people in the hotel lobby
  53. # [00:28] <anne> depending on the time of your arrival this is either trivial or non-trivial
  54. # [00:29] <Hixie> Ben: ah yes if you don't have a computer that'll be a problem
  55. # [00:29] <Hixie> Ben: if you arrive in the evening of hte 7th you'll probably get to the hotel while we're all out for dinner
  56. # [00:30] <Hixie> Ben: but there'll be clumps of people around, and we'll mostly be wearing name tags
  57. # [00:30] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.12.177) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  58. # [00:30] <Ben> hixie, are name tags provided or must you supply your own?
  59. # [00:31] <Hixie> when you register you get a t-shirt, name tag, and a folder of names of attendees
  60. # [00:31] <Hixie> i'm off now, dinner
  61. # [00:31] <Ben> k, thanks for your help
  62. # [00:32] <Hixie> anyone who wants to join, feel free to track me down, i'm in the css room / lobby
  63. # [00:35] <Ben> I'm off to eat as well now. bye all!
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  69. # [01:53] * Philip sees that Keio University is "the oldest university in Japan and in Asia", founded in 1858
  70. # [01:53] <Philip> which sounds really weird to me, coming from somewhere five times older
  71. # [01:54] <Philip> I guess I just take history for granted now, which is probably not a good thing
  72. # [02:05] * kingryan wonders where Philip is from
  73. # [02:07] <Philip> Currently Cambridge
  74. # [02:08] <kingryan> Philip: ah
  75. # [02:13] <Philip> (...The UK one, in particular)
  76. # [02:14] <kingryan> I guessed as much, given that cambridge, ma usa is relatively young
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  149. # [14:16] <DanC_lap> RRSAgent, tap tap tap... is this thing on?
  150. # [14:16] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'tap tap tap... is this thing on'
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  152. # [14:17] <DanC_lap> there is, unsurprisingly, some opposition to publishing. It seems pretty important to hear from the W3C member organizations when considering those objections...
  153. # [14:18] <DanC_lap> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results shows no response from IBM, France Telecom, Microsoft, Nokia, Boeing, and so on. I suppose people are waiting for the ftf meeting or something.
  154. # [14:29] <Lachy_> Marghanita's respsone indicates that (s)he doesn't understand the difference between degrade gracefully and supporting existing content
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  157. # [14:32] <Lachy_> oh, I'm surprised we got agreement from Laura Carlson to publish HDP.
  158. # [14:37] <smedero> Having never been to Boston would someone tell me if walking from the BU West station and across the BU Bridge down to Memorial (over to the Hyatt) is a reasonably sane thing to do?
  159. # [14:37] <smedero> google maps is a little unclear if there's a pedestrian path over the BU Bridge..
  160. # [14:45] <DanC_lap> hi smedero ; I should probably know, but I don't
  161. # [14:45] <DanC_lap> I wonder if there's a TPAC channel or some such...
  162. # [14:45] <smedero> no big deal
  163. # [14:48] * DanC_lap realizes he's late for breakfast if he wants to make a 9am meeting...
  164. # [14:55] <hsivonen> DanC_lap: there's supposed to be #tp, but it says I don't have the channel key
  165. # [14:55] * Parts: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  166. # [14:58] <Hixie> smedero: yes, that's what i did on sunday
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  168. # [14:59] <hsivonen> am I the only HTML WG participant in the PF join session room?
  169. # [14:59] <hsivonen> joint
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  173. # [15:05] <smedero> Hixie, ahh great - thank you! It looked doable.. but there are lot of highways and such in that area so I thought I should double check. There are some deadzones in spots of NYC, DC, and Philly where you just can't walk safely.
  174. # [15:06] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  175. # [15:08] * DanC_lap waves from the ARIA session with WAI PF
  176. # [15:08] <karl> there is something I don't like in the HDP :) but I think I will not fight
  177. # [15:09] <karl> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/principles/#solve-real-problems
  178. # [15:09] <karl> I had said it in my previous review
  179. # [15:09] <karl> everyone person has real™ problem.
  180. # [15:10] <karl> s/person//
  181. # [15:10] <karl> 3.1. Solve Real Problems
  182. # [15:10] <karl> Changes to the spec should solve actual real-world problems. Abstract architectures that don't address an existing need are less favored than pragmatic solutions to problems that web content faces today. And existing widespread problems should be solved, when possible.
  183. # [15:11] <karl> I don't know what is abstract architecture.
  184. # [15:11] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.119.44.89)
  185. # [15:11] <Lachy_> karl, lots of people think they're solving real problems, but aren't really. It happens quite a lot, particularly from beginners
  186. # [15:12] <karl> Lachy: this is exactly a problem of community.
  187. # [15:12] <karl> You think you are right, they think they are right.
  188. # [15:12] <Lachy_> which is why there needs to be a way to determine who is right
  189. # [15:12] <karl> there is no absolute truth, except if people are ready to make fool of themselves
  190. # [15:12] <Lachy_> and that is done by describing and analysing the problem they think they're solving
  191. # [15:13] <karl> between your last two sentences, there is a big stretch
  192. # [15:13] <karl> the notion of right and the notion of formulating a problem to solve
  193. # [15:14] <karl> finding an issue, solving it is cool
  194. # [15:14] <karl> it has nothing to do with truth
  195. # [15:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: should i be there?
  196. # [15:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: nothing's happening here in css
  197. # [15:15] <karl> Lachy: by creating a notion of "we are solving the real problems" you create more fractures and bulding more walls than putting them down.
  198. # [15:15] <Lachy_> an common, generic, example of not solving a real problem is when someone comes up with some new metadata feature claiming that it will help search engines do X...
  199. # [15:16] <Lachy_> but often the reality is that search engines aren't trying to do X or or the proposed solution wouldn't work anyway for a variety of other reasons
  200. # [15:16] <karl> Lachy: I said it a few times, if we take this example of meta keywords. meta keywords are implemented in spotlight and search engines like ht://dig, etc.
  201. # [15:16] <karl> it is useful in this context
  202. # [15:16] <karl> and it solves real™ problems of some organizations
  203. # [15:16] <Hixie> ht://dig is one of the most useless search engines ever
  204. # [15:17] <karl> Hixie, for you :)
  205. # [15:17] <Lachy_> I don't know what ht://dig is
  206. # [15:17] <Hixie> i have never, as far as i can ever recall, ever found anything with ht://dig
  207. # [15:17] <Hixie> though not for lack of trying
  208. # [15:17] <karl> Hixie: found?
  209. # [15:18] <Hixie> that's the point of ht://dig, right? finding things?
  210. # [15:18] <karl> we are talking about a piece of code that you can install on your own site, not a web service
  211. # [15:18] <Hixie> yes, i am aware
  212. # [15:18] <Hixie> i have used it on many sites
  213. # [15:18] <karl> I have used it
  214. # [15:18] <Lachy_> so it's like an intranet search engine?
  215. # [15:18] <karl> it has been useful to me
  216. # [15:19] <karl> who's right, who's wrong
  217. # [15:19] <Hixie> karl: you are far luckier than i then :-)
  218. # [15:19] <Hixie> anyway
  219. # [15:19] <karl> yes I guess it's part of life.
  220. # [15:19] <smedero> it is just a general search engine aimed at site-wide searching...
  221. # [15:19] <karl> Some people will always be unlucky ;) too bad
  222. # [15:19] <smedero> like lucene was in its earlier days.
  223. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie, methinks there would be some value in you being at the WAI/ARIA session if you're not there already
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  225. # [15:19] <karl> Lachy: http://www.htdig.org/
  226. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> 'specially if not much going on in CSS f2f this morning
  227. # [15:19] <anne> Hixie, makes sense if you go here then
  228. # [15:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: would there be more value in me being at wai aria or at css2.1?
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  230. # [15:21] <smedero> I think the last release of ht://dig was like... three years ago though.
  231. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I have no idea what CSS is covering this morning, but definitely would be useful for you to be at the WAI/ARIA thing
  232. # [15:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: k
  233. # [15:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: which room?
  234. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> anne - which room?
  235. # [15:21] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/TPAC/Schedule.html
  236. # [15:21] <DanC_lap> umm... I looked it up but now I forgot...
  237. # [15:21] <DanC_lap> something B
  238. # [15:21] <karl> William Dawes B
  239. # [15:21] <anne> done the hall
  240. # [15:21] <DanC_lap> don't think so, karl
  241. # [15:21] <karl> it is in the schedule
  242. # [15:21] <anne> from CSS
  243. # [15:22] <anne> s/done/down/
  244. # [15:22] <anne> duh
  245. # [15:22] <karl> E&O has changed room?
  246. # [15:22] <Hixie> k
  247. # [15:22] <Hixie> omw
  248. # [15:23] <DanC_lap> I'm in the ARIA session in Thomas Paine B
  249. # [15:24] <karl> Authoring Tools Accessibility Guidelines WG (AUWG)
  250. # [15:24] <karl> Jutta Treviranus
  251. # [15:25] <Hixie> is there an irc channel for the pf stuff?
  252. # [15:25] <Hixie> nevermind!
  253. # [15:27] <Hixie> DanC_lap: <marquee> is presentational and rel=nofollow has semantic use :-)
  254. # [15:27] <DanC_lap> hmm... I suppose.
  255. # [15:28] <karl> http://www.searchenginejournal.com/13-reasons-why-nofollow-tags-suck/4410/
  256. # [15:28] <DanC_lap> I was speaking to the community process around them, but perhaps they're more intertwingled than I thought
  257. # [15:28] <Hixie> (though yeah, as karl suggested, it's not like everyone celebrated rel=nofollow)
  258. # [15:29] <anne> maybe we can market <marquee> as newsticker :)
  259. # [15:29] <karl> I remember an article on the style nofollow 1 year later
  260. # [15:29] * DanC_lap wonders how Hixie heard me; doesn't see him in the room... via #aria, maybe?
  261. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> namazu2 + kakasi is a great open-source search engine that's also Japanese-aware
  262. # [15:29] <Hixie> DanC_lap: i'm next to cchen
  263. # [15:29] <Hixie> on the floor
  264. # [15:29] <Hixie> looking at you
  265. # [15:30] <DanC_lap> :)
  266. # [15:30] <karl> http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2005/05/23/nofollow-revisited/
  267. # [15:30] <karl> "Why nofollow doesn’t stop spam"
  268. # [15:30] <DanC_lap> karl, pls mail these pointers to www-tag with ISSUE-51 in the subject?
  269. # [15:31] <karl> ok
  270. # [15:35] <DanC_lap> the ARIA discussion is into versioning; it would be nice to give that an HTML WG issue in tracker just now... I'm not sure I should divide my attention that way
  271. # [15:35] <DanC_lap> help, smedero ?
  272. # [15:35] <smedero> sure.
  273. # [15:36] <DanC_lap> things to point to: Hyatt's summary, Karl's blog article, Wilson's essay
  274. # [15:36] <DanC_lap> open it on the requirements product
  275. # [15:36] <karl> http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/05/html_and_version_mechanisms.html
  276. # [15:37] <smedero> thanks, I was just pulling that out of Google Reader. :)
  277. # [15:40] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0612.html
  278. # [15:40] <karl> Versioning by Chris Wilson
  279. # [15:41] <smedero> thanks! i'm also working from this: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DocTypes02
  280. # [15:41] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/1408.html
  281. # [15:41] <karl> Versioning by Dave Hyatt
  282. # [15:42] <karl> smedero: my pleasure
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  285. # [15:49] <smedero> in the spirit of don't worry be crappy... http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4
  286. # [15:50] <DanC_lap> thanks much, smedero !
  287. # [15:51] <smedero> man, let me tell how you much I love the resizable textarea feature in Safari 3 (I know others did this in Firefox, etc... but... whatever)
  288. # [15:54] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  289. # [15:59] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  290. # [16:04] <DanC_lap> the PoorMansHypertext aspect of tracker bugs me; I hope to send an RFE for richtext/hypertext
  291. # [16:04] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  292. # [16:06] <karl> markdown format could give the simple feature we need, and there are plenty of libraries available already.
  293. # [16:08] <karl> example - http://www.attacklab.net/showdown-gui.html
  294. # [16:08] <karl> javascript library for Markdown
  295. # [16:10] * MikeSmith is trying to figure out why I can't connect reach nightly.webkit.org from here at the TPAC
  296. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> no connect to nightly.webkit.org, no can try out HTML Editing Toolbar stuff that webkit-changes@lists.webkit.org tells me was added on Sunday...
  297. # [16:16] <Philip> Would it work if the file was mirrored elsewhere?
  298. # [16:17] <Philip> like http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pjt47/misc/WebKit-SVN-r27464.dmg or something?
  299. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> Philip - yeah
  300. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> I'm usually just Nightshift to automatically download nightlies
  301. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> but can just go back to manually downloading
  302. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> Not like Nightshift is doing all the much anyway
  303. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> just convenient
  304. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> btw, I see they added support for the poster attribute on video
  305. # [16:22] <Philip> You should use Firefox instead, since that does automatic updates ;-)
  306. # [16:26] * MikeSmith googles for "Firefox"
  307. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> Philip - so this Firefox browser you speak of is also based on Webkit?
  308. # [16:27] <karl> mwahaha
  309. # [16:27] <karl> :D
  310. # [16:29] <DanC_lap> hsivonen is kinda amazing in this ftf meeting; he keeps a calm, understandable voice when making arguments that he's clearly had to make over and over.
  311. # [16:29] <DanC_lap> in the face of interruptions, objections, etc.
  312. # [16:29] <DanC_lap> "this ftf meeting" = ARIA session
  313. # [16:30] <Hixie> henri's awesome
  314. # [16:30] <Hixie> i'm a big fan
  315. # [16:30] <Hixie> :-)
  316. # [16:30] * Joins: timbl (timbl@63.119.44.189)
  317. # [16:30] * anne too
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  320. # [16:35] * MikeSmith has a hard time imagining a not-calm Henri
  321. # [16:35] <anne> that's not it
  322. # [16:36] <karl> MikeSmith: you haven't seen yet henri with his pink underwears on top of a bus in the desert of Australia singing songs.
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  326. # [16:40] * olivier thinks karl has seen priscilla too many times
  327. # [16:40] <karl> :) but I do not have an angry inch ;)
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  337. # [17:17] <smedero> karl, DanC_lap - yeah I've already been formatting my entires in the tracker as Markdown...
  338. # [17:18] <smedero> I've been writing in Markdown-like syntax for years anyway...
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  354. # [19:03] * anne is happy to solve versioning after understanding the question to which the answer is 42
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  356. # [19:12] <Lachy> crap. why has the versioning issue been re-raised?
  357. # [19:13] <billmason> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0092.html (apparently)
  358. # [19:14] <anne> because it's an issue
  359. # [19:14] <Lachy> yeah, I saw that. That's what I was asking about
  360. # [19:14] <anne> it's also not re-raised
  361. # [19:15] <anne> it's just added to the issue tracker
  362. # [19:15] <smedero> right. it was on the ESW issue wiki
  363. # [19:15] <anne> (which is not side-effect free obviously)
  364. # [19:16] <smedero> and yes, I hate adding issues that pick at old wounds... but they are much better off in the tracker than shoe-horning tracking into the wiki.
  365. # [19:16] <Hixie> the editors already replied to the versioning issue
  366. # [19:16] <Hixie> many months ago
  367. # [19:16] <Hixie> so if it isn't resolved yet, that's not the editors' problem :-)
  368. # [19:16] <anne> I don't think any edits have been made to the effect of Hyatt's comments though
  369. # [19:16] <smedero> Hixie, I'll look for that email and add it to the tracker.
  370. # [19:17] <anne> And I'm not sure I agree with all of his points, for instance, I think we should retain <!doctype html>
  371. # [19:17] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  372. # [19:18] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0555.html
  373. # [19:18] <Lachy> apparently Hyatt was in favour of versioning a while ago. Is that still the case now, especially since he's a co-editor?
  374. # [19:18] <Hixie> smedero: ^ that one and the e-mail it links to and the e-mails that that one link to
  375. # [19:18] <smedero> oh, ok. thanks. I also noted this one was of interest: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Jun/0024.html
  376. # [19:18] <Hixie> Lachy: he was never in favour. his opinion was much more subtle.
  377. # [19:19] <smedero> indeed, it does. thank you!
  378. # [19:19] <Hixie> np
  379. # [19:20] <Lachy> really? I remember reading his mail about it when he posted it a few months ago, and remember been shocked at his support for versioning. Did I misinterpret it back then?
  380. # [19:20] <Hixie> Lachy: it's linked to from the issue, i believe
  381. # [19:20] <anne> yes
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  385. # [19:28] <smedero> Lachy, the nature of the public-html list then (april-july) compared to now should help somewhat when re-raising old issues on the tracker.
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  404. # [21:25] <mjs> so is it remotely possible to get on the lightening talk schedule still?
  405. # [21:26] <MikeSmith> mjs - yeah
  406. # [21:26] <mjs> MikeSmith: I'd like to do a presentation about Apple's CSS Animation proposal, with demo
  407. # [21:26] <mjs> basically it would be all demo plus showing people what the markup and CSS looks like
  408. # [21:26] <mjs> is there anything I can do to sign up?
  409. # [21:27] <MikeSmith> mjs - e-mail DanC and Chris and cc the list
  410. # [21:27] <mjs> it's not really an HTML presentation
  411. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> oh
  412. # [21:28] <mjs> I meant lightening talks for the plenary session
  413. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> ah, sorry, dinnet realize that
  414. # [21:28] <Ben> I think Rotan Hanrahan was organising those
  415. # [21:28] <mjs> no worries, I was unclear
  416. # [21:28] <Ben> (spelling might be wrong)
  417. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> mjs - I will check and see and let you know
  418. # [21:29] <mjs> MikeSmith: thanks - I'll be hopping on a plane relatively soon, so mjs@apple.com is the best way to let me know
  419. # [21:29] * mjs <3s having an email-capable phone
  420. # [21:30] <MikeSmith> mjs - OK, will e-mail as soon as I find out
  421. # [21:30] <mjs> MikeSmith, thanks!
  422. # [21:32] <MikeSmith> mjs - sorry, looking like there is probably no chance unless they have somebody cancel
  423. # [21:32] <mjs> all right, no worries
  424. # [21:32] <MikeSmith> schedule is full up
  425. # [21:32] <mjs> would have signed up sooner if hyatt typed faster :-)
  426. # [21:33] <MikeSmith> heh
  427. # [21:33] <mjs> I will just demo to people individually as opportunity allows
  428. # [21:33] <mjs> it's an "I can't believe it's not Flash" sort of demo
  429. # [21:34] <MikeSmith> cool
  430. # [21:35] <MikeSmith> I showed some people the stuff on http://webkit.org/blog/138/css-animation/ already
  431. # [21:39] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  432. # [21:41] <Ben> how come the WebKit blog avoids using good markup?
  433. # [21:41] <Ben> it has <i> for <code>, <br> for the ends of list items, etc
  434. # [21:43] <Ben> <dl> would make sense in a couple of places of the CSS Animation entry
  435. # [21:43] <DanC_lap> If anybody sees Chris Wilson, let him know I'm in the lobby and available if he wants to talk
  436. # [21:45] <Ben> there's a couple of <h3>-like things which are currently <p><b>, too
  437. # [21:48] <DanC_lap> I found Chris W.; he's doing CSS stuff
  438. # [21:48] <DanC_lap> Ben, my guess is they used some blog software that does that by default...
  439. # [21:48] <DanC_lap> ... so the trick is to figure out which one and file a bug
  440. # [21:49] <Ben> DanC_lap, "Surfin’ Safari site is powered by WordPress"
  441. # [21:50] <DanC_lap> that narrows it down; then it's a question of the theme
  442. # [21:50] <DanC_lap> though the <i> for <code> might be due to the authors of the individual items... or maybe the WordPress authoring UI
  443. # [21:51] <Ben> there are WordPress blogs with pretty good markup. for example: http://www.webstandards.org/2007/06/11/review-wcag2-may2007-working-draft/
  444. # [21:51] <Hixie> danc: message sent
  445. # [21:51] <Hixie> oh you already found him
  446. # [21:51] <Hixie> ok nevermind!
  447. # [21:52] <DanC_lap> thanks anyway
  448. # [21:53] <Ben> DanC, I've been crunching some numbers for my presentation (I'm Ben 'Cerbera' Millard, btw)
  449. # [21:56] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  450. # [21:57] <anne> awesome
  451. # [21:57] <anne> Dean Jackson is doing web standards again :)
  452. # [21:57] <anne> CSS Transforms, Authors: Dean Jackson (dean.jackson@apple.com), Apple
  453. # [21:57] * anne assumes it's hiim
  454. # [22:01] <mjs> yes, it's the same Dean
  455. # [22:01] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
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  458. # [22:14] <hsivonen> hmm. Any idea which meeting room Steven Pemberton might be in?
  459. # [22:14] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Quit: .)
  460. # [22:15] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  461. # [22:15] <anne> I last saw him coming out the room next to the entrance to WAF
  462. # [22:15] <anne> to the left
  463. # [22:16] <hsivonen> anne: thanks
  464. # [22:16] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  465. # [22:17] <hsivonen> is there another break before 18:00?
  466. # [22:19] <anne> don't think so
  467. # [22:19] <hsivonen> hmm. he doesn't appear to be reading IRC right now
  468. # [22:21] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  469. # [22:23] <Philip> Is about:blank defined anywhere?
  470. # [22:23] <Philip> (HTML5 refers to it, but I can't see anything saying what it means)
  471. # [22:24] <anne> i think it will be
  472. # [22:25] <anne> providing tests would prolly help
  473. # [22:26] <Hixie> Philip: about:blank = ''
  474. # [22:27] <Hixie> with a text/html mime type
  475. # [22:27] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  476. # [22:27] <Hixie> it's basically "data:text/html,"
  477. # [22:29] <anne> except that it has weird rules with respect to origin, quirks mode?, etc. right?
  478. # [22:29] <Hixie> not really, same as data:, i think
  479. # [22:29] <Hixie> doesn't it default to strict mode
  480. # [22:30] <Hixie> er
  481. # [22:30] <Hixie> quirks mode
  482. # [22:30] <Hixie> ?
  483. # [22:30] <gavin_> gecko's about:blank is "<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html><head><title></title></head><body></body></html>"
  484. # [22:30] <gavin_> I wonder if people depend on that somehow?
  485. # [22:30] <anne> that's limited quirks mode
  486. # [22:30] <anne> iirc
  487. # [22:30] <gavin_> (I don't know how that differs from the DOM produced by "")
  488. # [22:32] <anne> that wouldn't have a DOCTYPE
  489. # [22:32] <gavin_> and no title, apparently
  490. # [22:32] <gavin_> <title>
  491. # [22:32] <anne> yeah
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  496. # [22:39] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess I should go looking for Steven Pemberton
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  502. # [23:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm in the hotel bar
  503. # [23:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK
  504. # [23:50] <MikeSmith> anybody know if jgraham has arrived yet?
  505. # [23:50] <MikeSmith> not arriving til tomorrow maybe?
  506. # [23:50] <hsivonen> talking with Doug and ChrisL
  507. # [23:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - hotel bar is 2nd floor?
  508. # [23:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie, anne - dinner plans?
  509. # [23:51] <anne> with the CSS guys again
  510. # [23:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
  511. # [23:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'm planning on eating with jason at 6:45, meeting near the css room
  512. # [23:53] <Hixie> i encourage everyone here to join us
  513. # [23:54] <Hixie> we're going to some supposedly awesome mexican place
  514. # [23:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: you should come too :-)
  515. # [23:54] <anne> (nothing bad about the CSS guys btw, except when they're talking fonts)
  516. # [23:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie - will plan to meet you guys at 6:45 in the lobby then, I reckon hsivonen too
  517. # [23:56] <MikeSmith> cause we had talked earlier about dinner
  518. # [23:56] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: jgraham arrives tomorrow evening
  519. # [23:56] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - OK, thanks
  520. # [23:56] <gsnedders> why do I know that? I'm not even going.
  521. # [23:57] <MikeSmith> heh
  522. # [23:58] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@198.86.248.1) (Connection reset by peer)
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  524. # Session Close: Wed Nov 07 00:00:00 2007

The end :)