/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-09 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Nov 09 00:00:01 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:00] <MikeSmith> Lachy - thanks. That was Tex Texin asking about that
# [00:00] <MikeSmith> kingryan - yeah
# [00:00] <MikeSmith> make it more fun
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# [00:01] <smedero> for the guys discussing text selection range support: http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/range_intro.html
# [00:01] <kingryan> this might also be of interest: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/testsuitedocumentation.html
# [00:01] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
# [00:01] <anne> maybe e-mail them to www-archive@w3.org
# [00:02] <Lachy> yeah, that would be good
# [00:02] <MikeSmith> anne - yeah
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# [00:06] <ChrisWilson> anne - agree, I'll mail mine.
# [00:08] <ChrisWilson> okay, time to head back to the hotel and make dinner plans.
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# [00:08] <ChrisWilson> see you all tomorrow
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# [00:16] * Philip fails to guess the function arguments for opera-3d
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# [00:18] <Philip> (I'm guessing it's like m=ctx.create3DModel();m.addVertex(0,0,0);m.addVertex(0,0,1);m.addVertex(1,1,1);m.addTriangle(0,1,2);ctx.beginScene();ctx.draw3DModel(m);ctx.endScene() except I can't get anything to draw but maybe that's just because I'm using Wine in Linux)
# [00:19] <janet> forgive me for interrupting your meeting. DanC and I are rehearsing for tomorrow.
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# [00:19] <Philip> (Uh, add another two arguments in addVertex)
# [00:20] <DanC_lap> http://esw.w3.org/topic/InstantGig
# [00:22] <anne> Philip, can't you iterate over the object?
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# [00:22] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/
# [00:23] <Philip> anne: Yes, but that just shows the function names, and I have to try calling with various numbers of arguments until it doesn't throw exceptions, and then I have to guess what each argument means and what order the functions should be called in
# [00:24] <Philip> and then it doesn't work in VMWare, and I can't tell if doesn't work in Wine or it just doesn't work at all, or if I've just got coordinates wrong so everything is drawn off the screen :-)
# [00:25] * Philip always has the latter problem when doing anything 3d...
# [00:26] <anne> I suggest e-mailing timj
# [00:26] <anne> He is probably able to help
# [00:26] <janet> http://cohenchords.com/08vp/hallelujah.htm
# [00:26] <janet> http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/callmeth.htm
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# [00:29] * Philip will try to find a real Windows machine tomorrow to test it
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# [00:30] <anne> I still recommend e-mailing timj to save yourself time
# [00:30] <Hixie> so has anyone been reading the ping="" stuff from today?
# [00:32] <anne> the discussion was about the user not knowing the difference
# [00:32] <anne> mostly
# [00:32] <anne> and "teaching authors"
# [00:33] <anne> and frameworks providing LinkButton and Button classes that map to HTML
# [00:33] <anne> (from my brief reading)
# [00:33] <anne> hah
# [00:34] <Lachy> Hixie, did you update the ping stuff in the spec, or do you mean the mailing list?
# [00:34] <anne> he closed his laptop
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# [03:48] <Hixie> Lachy: i meant the mailing list
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# [03:52] <mjs> howdy gentlemen
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# [04:45] <shawn> howdy all
# [04:45] <anne> good evening
# [04:47] <mjs> hello
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# [07:17] * Lachy changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F'
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# [13:57] <karl> MikeSmith: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1805709102&size=o
# [13:57] <karl> The Web is agreement
# [13:58] <Lachy> karl, is the htmlwg meeting continuing today?
# [13:59] <karl> Lachy: yes
# [13:59] <Lachy> what time does it start?
# [13:59] <karl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
# [14:00] <karl> 9am
# [14:00] <Lachy> ok
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# [14:01] * Lachy is going to have a sleep for an hour or two, recover from headache and bbl for the meeting
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# [14:35] * MikeSmith is headed to breakfast on 2nd floor at the Zephyr ... ping me if there are any problems with the rooms or whatever
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# [15:02] <jgraham_> http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/1933611581/
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# [15:06] <anne> Karl: New technical contact for HTML is Michael Smith
# [15:06] <anne> [the audience goes mad]
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# [15:07] <anne> Karl: [praises Mike some more]
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# [15:07] <anne> s/Michael/Michael(tm)/
# [15:07] * DanC_lap missed it; wonders if that got recorded
# [15:07] * anne recorded it
# [15:07] * anne ... sort of
# [15:08] * anne Oliver is OT right?
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# [15:08] <anne> Topic: story telling + testcases
# [15:08] <anne> On screen: "Testing: hard?"
# [15:09] <MikeSmith> Olivier Theroux talking
# [15:10] <MikeSmith> screen say "your tag sucks"
# [15:10] <anne> also "Ranting: easy!"
# [15:10] <Yves> s/Theroux/Thereaux/
# [15:11] <MikeSmith> followed by "Ranting: easy!"
# [15:11] * MikeSmith notes that ranting is lot of fun also
# [15:11] <anne> OT: People already test, otherwise they couldn't rant about the impl sucking
# [15:12] <MikeSmith> OT: Invite people (ranters) to participate in testing.
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# [15:13] <DanC_lap> link love
# [15:13] * glazou apologizes for spreading germs into this room's athmosphere...
# [15:14] <anne> screen: "Leveraging the lazy Web"
# [15:14] <MikeSmith> Slide: Leveraging the lazy Web
# [15:14] * MikeSmith wonders if OT slides are online
# [15:15] <Hixie> right. well. if anyone wants to help me write the scripts to handle dynamic annotation of the html5 spec, i'm going into the lobby
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# [15:17] <olivier> q?
# [15:17] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
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# [15:17] <hsivonen> q+
# [15:17] * Zakim sees MichaelC, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:17] <anne> q- MichaelC
# [15:17] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:17] <olivier> ack Michael
# [15:17] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:17] <olivier> Michael?
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# [15:17] * anne thinks MichaelC was still there from yesterday
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# [15:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I miss the point of using EARL ... why EARL?
# [15:18] <anne> Zakim, no time limit
# [15:18] <Zakim> I don't understand 'no time limit', anne
# [15:18] <anne> Zakim, no time
# [15:18] <Zakim> I don't understand 'no time', anne
# [15:18] <anne> Zakim, bah
# [15:18] <Zakim> I don't understand 'bah', anne
# [15:18] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to Michael
# [15:18] <mauro> zakim, stop timing
# [15:18] <Zakim> ok, mauro
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# [15:18] <DanC_lap> q+ to answer "why earl?"
# [15:18] * Zakim sees hsivonen, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
# [15:19] <jgraham_> q+ plh
# [15:19] * Zakim sees hsivonen, DanC_lap, plh on the speaker queue
# [15:19] <MikeSmith> OT: EARL is not a panacea, it's just [one] appropriate way
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# [15:20] <karl> q+ to answer hsivonen
# [15:20] * Zakim sees hsivonen, DanC_lap, plh, karl on the speaker queue
# [15:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - worried about the reputation system ... Subversion team says that people should not put their names on the code [for test cases?}
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# [15:21] <DanC_lap> ack hsivonen
# [15:21] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, plh, karl on the speaker queue
# [15:21] <DanC_lap> ack danc
# [15:21] <Zakim> DanC_lap, you wanted to answer "why earl?"
# [15:21] * Zakim sees plh, karl on the speaker queue
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# [15:21] <DanC_lap> for more on why earl and how earl:
# [15:21] <olivier> dom is coming now to showcase the mobile web test harness
# [15:21] <olivier> q?
# [15:21] * Zakim sees plh, karl on the speaker queue
# [15:22] <DanC_lap> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results GRDDL implementation report, built with EARL
# [15:22] <olivier> ack p
# [15:22] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [15:22] * anne wonders if we should be worried about implementation reports at this point
# [15:22] <DanC_lap> never too soon to start testing
# [15:22] * anne thinks we should focus on making tests first
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# [15:23] * anne thinks we should also discuss licensing, hosting location for tests, etc.
# [15:24] <olivier> anne, want to q+ to bring these concerns?
# [15:24] <olivier> q+ dom to showcase test harness
# [15:24] * Zakim sees karl, dom on the speaker queue
# [15:24] <anne> q+ to say that I think we should discuss licensing, hosting, making tests, as opposed to EARL
# [15:24] * Zakim sees karl, dom, anne on the speaker queue
# [15:25] <anne> help, namespaces on screen
# [15:25] <ChrisWilson> i'm melting!
# [15:27] <anne> For the record: HTML is generated using print, not using a DOM
# [15:27] * MikeSmith notes that Dom is patiently waiting ... standing actually, with laptop in hand
# [15:27] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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# [15:27] <anne> (in the python script that goes from EARL to HTML)
# [15:27] <anne> q?
# [15:27] * Zakim sees karl, dom, anne on the speaker queue
# [15:28] <anne> ack dom
# [15:28] <Zakim> dom, you wanted to showcase test harness
# [15:28] * Zakim sees karl, anne on the speaker queue
# [15:28] <MikeSmith> Dom is chair of Mobile Web Initiative Test Suites Working Group
# [15:28] <olivier> q- karl
# [15:28] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
# [15:28] <MikeSmith> Dom describing Mobile Test Harness
# [15:30] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/mth/harness
# [15:30] <olivier> q+ to ask dom how you avoid spam/bogus
# [15:30] * Zakim sees anne, olivier on the speaker queue
# [15:34] <olivier> harness lets users either run full test suite, a single test
# [15:34] <jgraham_> q+ plh
# [15:34] * Zakim sees anne, olivier, plh on the speaker queue
# [15:34] <olivier> ... or come back to the test suite and run only the tests not yet tested
# [15:34] <MikeSmith> q?
# [15:34] * Zakim sees anne, olivier, plh on the speaker queue
# [15:34] <olivier> ack me
# [15:34] <Zakim> olivier, you wanted to ask dom how you avoid spam/bogus
# [15:34] * Zakim sees anne, plh on the speaker queue
# [15:35] <olivier> dom: the results show how many people agree/disagree
# [15:35] <olivier> ... the power of many will/should show the actual result
# [15:36] <olivier> ... if after a while there is still disagreement maybe the test case is not clear or relevant
# [15:36] <olivier> dom: the goal of this was to build a nice report chart automatically
# [15:36] <olivier> ... these generally done by hand until now
# [15:37] <olivier> håkon: like the harness. we seem to have a big community that we could leverage
# [15:37] <olivier> ... but will there be an issue with having too many tests
# [15:37] * Quits: fsasaki (chatzilla@128.30.52.28) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.9/2007102514])
# [15:37] <olivier> karl: you can just answer a few tests
# [15:37] <olivier> håkon: for a tester, completing the suite has a feel-good effect
# [15:38] <hsivonen> q+
# [15:38] * Zakim sees anne, plh, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:38] <olivier> plh: we could have modules
# [15:38] <olivier> plh: can I change my answers?
# [15:38] <olivier> dom: you can use the back button
# [15:38] * Quits: mauro (mauro@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Adios!)
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# [15:39] <olivier> ack plh
# [15:39] * Zakim sees anne, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:39] <olivier> plh: is the system really scalable?
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# [15:39] <olivier> dom: number of tests doesn't affect the running of the test suite
# [15:39] <olivier> ... only the report table
# [15:39] <olivier> q?
# [15:39] * Zakim sees anne, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:39] <DanC_lap> q+ to point out that anybody who wants it to work but worries about W3C servers can wish into the supporters program
# [15:39] * Zakim sees anne, hsivonen, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
# [15:39] <olivier> ack h
# [15:39] * Zakim sees anne, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
# [15:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen mentions the Mechanical Turk
# [15:40] <DanC_lap> yes! just like mechanical turk, hsivonen
# [15:40] <anne> or simply automate a bunch of tests using JavaScript
# [15:40] <DanC_lap> yes, automated tests are great too, anne
# [15:40] <anne> we already did that for html5lib tests
# [15:40] <olivier> dom: we can add these features to the system, it's still fairly young
# [15:41] <olivier> ... still fairly flexible
# [15:41] <olivier> plh: do you need an account?
# [15:41] <anne> q?
# [15:41] * Zakim sees anne, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
# [15:41] * ChrisWilson thinks at the least a W3C account should be required to help prevent spam
# [15:41] <olivier> dom: no. and the system is stateless
# [15:41] * anne wonders why the queue goes backwards
# [15:41] <ChrisWilson> but then, maybe I'm just used to being spammed.
# [15:41] <DanC_lap> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/sup
# [15:42] <olivier> anne, I think I should have made your q+ an agenda+
# [15:42] <jgraham_> automated html5lib tests: http://html5.org/parsing-tests/testrunner.htm
# [15:42] <olivier> ack anne
# [15:42] <Zakim> anne, you wanted to say that I think we should discuss licensing, hosting, making tests, as opposed to EARL
# [15:42] * Zakim sees DanC_lap on the speaker queue
# [15:42] <DanC_lap> RFE: mix in the "I agree to the W3C patent policy" ritual
# [15:43] <olivier> agenda+ we should discuss licensing, hosting, making tests, as opposed to EARL [anne]
# [15:43] * Zakim notes agendum 24 added
# [15:43] <olivier> dom: the harness is open, public, talking about it is welcome
# [15:44] <DanC_lap> hixie is giving a course on testing in another time/space
# [15:44] <DanC_lap> on making tests, that is
# [15:44] * anne will edit the F2F wiki page
# [15:45] <olivier> q?
# [15:45] * Zakim sees DanC_lap on the speaker queue
# [15:45] <DanC_lap> let's look at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
# [15:47] <fantasai> Ishida offers to talk about i18n issues; the i18n group is visiting this morning
# [15:48] <fantasai> Ishida: We haven't started reviewing formally yet.
# [15:48] <fantasai> Anne asks the i18n group for issues.
# [15:48] <fantasai> Henri: There are some requirements in the charmod model that we can't satisfy and meet our existing content compatibility requirements.
# [15:48] <fantasai> Dan wants proof
# [15:49] <fantasai> Henri: THere are some cases where I as a validator must ignore one of the checkpoints or my users will ignore me.
# [15:50] <fantasai> Addison says that this is an opportunity to teach web authors about how to handle char encoding properly.
# [15:50] <fantasai> Howcome asks for a summary of the issue.
# [15:50] <DanC_lap> well, no, I don't want proof; I want it recognized as a tension rather than a black-and-white impossible conflict
# [15:50] <fantasai> Addison: The issue is that there's a section on encoding detection for the page.
# [15:50] <fantasai> Addison: And the sequence has a part where we were concerned about the phrasing
# [15:51] <fantasai> Addison: Not because they're technically wrong, but because they may give people the wrong impression.
# [15:51] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0068.html
# [15:51] <fantasai> Addison: You have a phrase that says that Windows ??? is the encoding for Western documents
# [15:52] <fantasai> Some discussion of the wording
# [15:52] <DanC_lap> q+
# [15:52] * Zakim sees DanC_lap on the speaker queue
# [15:52] <olivier> s/???/1252/
# [15:52] <fantasai> Addison: we could do some work to support you
# [15:53] <fantasai> Addison: This windows-1252 seems to appear from nowhere. People don't know its relation to other encodings. We could provide additional references.
# [15:53] <DanC_lap> q+ to say that when I checked the windows-1252 stuff, it seems to me that hsivonen's code/design is ok as is, but the I18N WG suggested some change of emphasis in the spec
# [15:53] * Zakim sees DanC_lap on the speaker queue
# [15:53] <fantasai> Anne: This is the parsing section for implementors, not for authors.
# [15:53] <fantasai> Addison: Implementors dont' necessarily know more about encodings.
# [15:53] <fantasai> Addison: For example, how do you know if you're parsing from a Western demogrpahic?
# [15:53] <fantasai> Addison: We proposed some changes to the text.
# [15:54] <mauro> s/demogrpahic/demographic/
# [15:54] * anne nominates fantasai for W3C minute taker
# [15:54] <fantasai> Addison: We moved the recommendation to UTF higher and then added a note about the use of windows 12-52
# [15:54] <fantasai> Henri: this is the last fallback.
# [15:54] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
# [15:54] <smedero> I went ahead and opened an issue for this topic...
# [15:54] <DanC_lap> (is there an issue tracking TF member here? where does this live in the issues list?)
# [15:54] <smedero> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/11
# [15:54] <olivier> q?
# [15:54] * Zakim sees DanC_lap on the speaker queue
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# [15:55] <fantasai> Addison: This is the last paragraph after everything, including auto-detect, fails.
# [15:55] <fantasai> Henri: That should be windows1252
# [15:55] <DanC_lap> proposed ACTION: addison and hsivonen to investigate HTML default encoding and windows1252 over beverage of choice
# [15:55] <DanC_lap> ack danc
# [15:55] <Zakim> DanC_lap, you wanted to point out that anybody who wants it to work but worries about W3C servers can wish into the supporters program and to and to say that when I checked the
# [15:55] <Zakim> ... windows-1252 stuff, it seems to me that hsivonen's code/design is ok as is, but the I18N WG suggested some change of emphasis in the spec
# [15:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:56] <fantasai> Addison explains that utf8 and windows 1252 can be differentiated with heuristics.
# [15:56] <fantasai> Henri says that that should be part of an earlier step
# [15:57] <fantasai> decided to move that discussion to after break and invite hixie
# [15:57] * mauro is very impressed with fantasai's minute taking :)
# [15:57] <fantasai> henri and addison will discuss
# [15:57] <fantasai> Anne adds Test licensing to 4pm slot
# [15:58] <karl> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/11
# [15:58] <ChrisWilson> ^^^is the character encoding issue
# [15:58] <fantasai> Anne wants a W3C lawyer to attend to discuss licensing
# [15:58] <fantasai> DanC says that MIT has been approvied
# [15:58] <fantasai> s/ied/ed/
# [15:58] <smedero> (yeah I was *just* opening that issue before DanC asked for it... it is quite brief... but at least it is there.)
# [15:58] <anne> go DanC_lap!
# [15:59] <fantasai> break
# [16:01] <mauro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html mauro
# [16:02] <mauro> RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
# [16:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, mauro
# [16:03] <mauro> zakim, who is here?
# [16:03] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)21:03Z has not yet started, mauro
# [16:03] * Quits: fsasaki (chatzilla@128.30.52.28) (Client exited)
# [16:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see MikeSmith, fsasaki, mauro, fantasai, shepazu, howcome, PIon, r12a, timbl, dsinger, najib, ChrisWilson, olivier, glazou, DanC_lap, smedero, justin, MarcinHanclik, anne,
# [16:03] <Zakim> ... dbaron, arun, Nick, matt, jgraham_, gorm, gavin, karl, Julian, Lachy, paullewis, xover, mjs, ROBOd, tH, jmb, Yves, raman, anthony, Bert, Philip, Zakim, oedipus, Lionheart,
# [16:03] <Zakim> ... Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi, gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent
# [16:03] <mauro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html mauro
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# [16:08] * Joins: KevinLawver (kplawver@64.236.128.27)
# [16:10] <mauro> Meeting: HTML Working Group November f2f Day Two
# [16:10] <mauro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html mauro
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# [16:17] <smedero> \
# [16:18] <dbaron> what room is hsivonen in now?
# [16:19] <anne> we're in the lobby
# [16:19] <anne> close to the exist, on the couch + chairs
# [16:19] <anne> room D was not useful
# [16:20] * Quits: PIon (3f772d8c@128.30.52.23) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
# [16:21] <mauro> anne, what do you mean room D was not useful? can I help?
# [16:22] <jgraham_> No chairs in D
# [16:22] <jgraham_> or tables
# [16:22] <mauro> what?
# [16:22] <smedero> you mean Ballroom B?
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# [16:23] <jgraham_> Yeah B, not D
# [16:23] * mauro walking there...
# [16:23] <karl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
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# [16:26] <karl> GIG session at 11am
# [16:26] <karl> during the break
# [16:26] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [16:28] <anne> well, we're in B now
# [16:28] <anne> it's through a secret door
# [16:28] * mjs is sad he missed "organizing tests" but glad he got some sleep
# [16:29] <jgraham_> mjs, organising tests is at 16:00 now
# [16:29] <anne> it was not about organizing
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# [16:32] * fantasai packs up and goes to see if i18n is doing anything interesting
# [16:33] * mjs thinks someome should update the wiki, then
# [16:33] * Parts: mjs (mjs@68.160.33.79)
# [16:34] * anne did
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# [16:34] <anne> the wiki is updated
# [16:34] <karl> fantasai thanks for minuting
# [16:34] <mjs> I only see "HTML5 for Authors" at 4:30
# [16:35] <jgraham_> that's 14:30
# [16:35] <mjs> oh, that's 2:30
# [16:35] <mjs> There's "Tests: : Licensing, hosting, etc."
# [16:35] <mjs> cool
# [16:35] * Parts: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.30)
# [16:36] <anne> licensing is resolved apparently
# [16:36] <anne> The W3C is now fine with MIT
# [16:36] <jgraham_> :)
# [16:36] * Parts: najib (chatzilla@63.119.45.143)
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> anne - was there any discussion of hosting?
# [16:38] <anthony> ahhh ok
# [16:38] <anne> MikeSmith, 4PM
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> hai
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# [16:42] <ChrisWilson> PLEASE NOTE: Offline support is moved to 11:45, due to scheduling conflict. We can run slightly late and into lunch, or if people would prefer we can move it to 5:00PM
# [16:43] * Quits: KevinLawver (kplawver@64.236.128.27) (Quit: KevinLawver)
# [16:43] <anne> FYI: I can't attend from 2PM to 4PM having to attend the Web API WG meeting
# [16:43] * Quits: timbl (timbl@63.119.45.155) (Quit: timbl)
# [16:43] <anne> (XMLHttpRequest level 1 and level 2 are discussed if anyone is interested.)
# [16:44] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# [16:45] * mjs will likely go as well
# [16:49] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: what was the conflict?
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# [16:55] <mjs> I'm ok with either 5 PM or 11:45 AM
# [16:55] * mjs heads to the Hyatt
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# [16:56] <ChrisWilson> Hixie - the schedule worked, except a bunch of people (including my co-chair) thought the instant gig was set for 11:00, not 10:00, and didn't discover this conflict until too late.
# [16:56] <Hixie> aah
# [16:57] <anne> Hixie, the "i18n people" want to discuss some issues with encoding detection around 11AM, any chance you join? Hopefully it doesn't take too long
# [17:00] <anne> I guess that would be now
# [17:00] <anne> hmm
# [17:01] <ChrisWilson> anne, would you like to have that technical issue discussion with a larger group? we can put it on the agenda, either later today or tomorrow. Or have an informal discussion over lunch?
# [17:01] <anne> it's just a few things, they haven't reviewed HTML 5 yet
# [17:02] <anne> (well, obviously some parts, but not all of it)
# [17:02] <anne> so informal is fine
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# [17:04] <Hixie> anne: sure
# [17:04] <Hixie> anne: wher?
# [17:05] <anne> by the drinks, close to D
# [17:05] <Hixie> i'm looking after mike's laptop but once he gets back i can join you
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# [17:06] <ChrisWilson> ok. It seemed like not only were they familiar with the current spec, but that they didn't have the same thoughts about specifying a definitive default for interop. Or maybe that was just my interpretation.
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# [17:07] * karl wonders if someone is podcasting the session right now
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# [17:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie - sorry bout my laptop - thanks
# [17:10] * oedipus also wonders if there is any pod or camcasting going on -- is marcos there?
# [17:10] <ChrisWilson> I don't see him.
# [17:11] <MikeSmith> oedipus - Marcos not in the room here
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# [17:12] <Hixie> MikeSmith: np
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# [17:13] <karl> guys: you should come here
# [17:14] <ChrisWilson> Yeah, this is the reprise of karaoke from last nite.
# [17:14] <ChrisWilson> :/
# [17:14] <ChrisWilson> Hixie, Janet just dedicated a stanza to you. :)
# [17:14] <smedero> I'm really digging the animated GIF on the tab/lyric page.
# [17:15] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/charmod-checking/
# [17:15] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/charmod-norm-checking/
# [17:16] * ChrisWilson thinks the instantgig is suffering from lack of tab/lyric prep
# [17:16] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: aww
# [17:16] <anne> #i18n covers some of the i18n discussion
# [17:17] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: please convey my thanks
# [17:17] <anne> it's in room B and slightly more formal than I expected
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# [17:20] <ChrisWilson> Ian, you're missing your dedication
# [17:20] * Parts: mjs (mjs@63.119.45.191)
# [17:20] <smedero> Ian may be wrapped up in the il8n discussion...
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# [17:20] <mjs> Hixie: you're lucky to be missing it
# [17:20] <smedero> hahaha
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# [17:31] <ChrisWilson> aww, now come on mjs. This is fine entertainment. :)
# [17:31] <anne> Can someone inform me why we need another ARIA discussion?
# [17:32] <ChrisWilson> The ARIA guys didn't feel the conversation had resolved. I wasn't there, Dan was busy at the time. Were you there, and can you summarize the conversation and conclusion for me?
# [17:32] <ChrisWilson> (brb)
# [17:32] <anne> I wanted to discuss naming, but the rest was more interested in discussing what ARIA is about it seems
# [17:33] <anne> I don't really want to discuss either of those as I think after the five discussions of an hour or longer I've had on this I think we should just bite the bullet and move on
# [17:35] <ChrisWilson> can you describe your bullet? :) (I know what ARIA is, how it works, etc.)
# [17:35] <ChrisWilson> how do you think it should be embedded into HTML (and XHTML, et al)?
# [17:36] <anne> I think we should not reuse role= because overloading that for both a low-level access API and general extensibility seems wrong. Using aria= seems better. And using aria-propertyname for the properties as that causes the least amount of trouble for everyone involved except for schema writers which should really be our last priority
# [17:36] <anne> and Henri said he was willing to make the schema
# [17:37] <ChrisWilson> it seems that perhaps aria-role: would be more descriptive? I personally agree about overloading role
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# [17:39] <anne> so aria= has the advantage that aria-properties= seem like properties for what aria= says
# [17:40] <anne> aria-role= would look like the properties
# [17:40] <aaronlev> anne: i'm against making that change right now, it's not worth the work
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# [17:40] <anne> and also make people think we're forking the XHTML role module, which we don't really want I think
# [17:40] <aaronlev> we're not overloading role, we're using it the same way
# [17:40] <aaronlev> darn i gotta go, be back in 10 minutes
# [17:40] <anne> no we're not
# [17:41] <aaronlev> anne: xhtml2 wg is fine with us using it this way, talk to rich
# [17:41] <aaronlev> they agreed to it today
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# [17:41] <anne> role= doesn't seem at all related to aria-properties which is problematic I think
# [17:41] <aaronlev> bbiab
# [17:41] <anne> I think it makes more sense to have a consistent low-level API
# [17:42] * oedipus asks for expansion of bbiab
# [17:42] <anne> "be back in a bit"
# [17:42] * oedipus thanks anne
# [17:43] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : discussion on offline support is here in the music room at 11:45, right?
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# [17:44] <Hixie> ia gree with anne on this, fwiw
# [17:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie - will you be able to join discussion about offline stuff?
# [17:47] <ChrisWilson> MikeSmith, yes
# [17:48] <ChrisWilson> Anne, I think you've highlighted why the ARIA guys wanted to have further discussion. If one more steel cage session resolves this issue, that would be a good thing.
# [17:48] <mjs> Hixie: wanna talk offline at 5?
# [17:49] <Hixie> we'll be coming shortlly
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# [17:50] <anne> ChrisWilson, well, I need to know what will be discussed first I guess
# [17:50] <anne> ChrisWilson, but yeah, maybe we can do more of this funny discussion
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# [17:54] <aaronlev> i can be around tomorrow, i guess a discussion is scheduled for then
# [17:54] <aaronlev> also rich is around today i believe
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# [17:54] <ChrisWilson> 9am tomorrow in President's D.
# [17:54] <aaronlev> great
# [17:54] <aaronlev> xhtml2 minutes should have what was discussed
# [17:55] <aaronlev> but they anyway xhtml2 group is trying to sensibly accomodate html's needs now
# [17:55] <anne> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-offline.html
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# [17:57] <aaronlev> anne: i can see your arguments are somewhat reasonable but it's a lot of work for everyone to make that change
# [17:57] <aaronlev> so i think it has to be a large enough gain to make it worth it
# [17:57] <aaronlev> plus it is still political
# [17:58] <aaronlev> i would really like to get past all this and do real work
# [17:58] <anne> i'm not sure how it's a lot of work
# [17:58] <anne> was adding support for aria-property a lot of work?
# [17:59] <aaronlev> anne: yes but it was worth it
# [18:00] <aaronlev> anne: i had to go find all the authors and get them to do the change, and not surprisingly many were confused
# [18:00] <aaronlev> their examples broke because they didn't get it, etc.
# [18:00] <aaronlev> and with the role change we'd also have to go change all the specs
# [18:00] <anne> no, we just merge this into HTML 5
# [18:00] <aaronlev> with the aria- change we don't need to change much in the specs, because it's just a different include mechanism
# [18:00] <aaronlev> anne: that's not good
# [18:00] <anne> but changing specs should be the least of our concern
# [18:01] <aaronlev> i'm just pointing out that there's a payoff requirement for the work
# [18:01] <aaronlev> i don't think html-wg is the right place to put it
# [18:01] <aaronlev> because html-wg isn't the right palce to decide what roles there are
# [18:01] <aaronlev> or what properties
# [18:01] <anne> that's already decided by the access APIs
# [18:01] <aaronlev> anne: no, we also drive changes to accessibility apis
# [18:02] <Hixie> aaronlev: we could implement both as a transition path
# [18:02] <Hixie> have role="" and aria="" for a while
# [18:02] <aaronlev> Hixie: we could, i guess
# [18:02] <aaronlev> but i just don't think it's worth it
# [18:02] <aaronlev> i mean if everyone's for it, i guess i have to do it
# [18:02] * Quits: mauro (mauro@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# [18:02] <aaronlev> but i think html should allow another group to control what the attribute values mean
# [18:03] <Hixie> well the problem i see is that we really _don't_ want the aria-related role to be overloaded with all the... features... of "the" role attribute
# [18:03] <aaronlev> specifically pfwg should do that
# [18:03] <anne> ok, sorry, I'm fine with that
# [18:03] <aaronlev> Hixie: which don't you want?
# [18:03] <aaronlev> anne: with what?
# [18:03] <anne> having the actual values etc. defined by the PFWG
# [18:03] <aaronlev> cool
# [18:04] <anne> although I'd like them to define the processing stuff way more carefully
# [18:04] <aaronlev> rich said that xhtml2 said today that other languages could use role and define their own processing, something like that
# [18:04] <aaronlev> we need to read the minutes i guess or talk to them
# [18:04] <aaronlev> so hixie doesn't that resolve your issue?
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# [18:05] <Hixie> aaronlev: sorry in meeting can't really talk in real time now, will be slow
# [18:05] <aaronlev> np
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# [18:07] <aaronlev> ChrisWilson: if that meeting could be at 10 then i can make it
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# [18:08] <Hixie> aaronlev: role="http://this.is.a.long.uri/that/means#something-like-a-microformat" shouldn't have to interact with the low-level accessibility APIs like role="notify region" (or whatever it's called)
# [18:09] <aaronlev> Hixie: Hixie i don't want that either
# [18:09] <aaronlev> Hixie: for role extensibility, if we ever prove that we need it, which we might
# [18:10] <aaronlev> i'd say the author should be able todefine a short name for it
# [18:10] <aaronlev> and describe any new properties it has using a link to a json file, e.g. <link rel="ARIA" href="buddylist.json">
# [18:10] <aaronlev> ... if we get that far, the role would like like
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# [18:10] <aaronlev> role="buddylist listbox"
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# [18:10] <Hixie> aaronlev: i don't understand how the author could extend an MSAA API
# [18:11] <aaronlev> with listbox being the fallback for older software that doesn't know how to process the json or know what buddylist is
# [18:11] <aaronlev> Hixie: we have created IAccessible2 which is a sert of interfaces on top of MSAA
# [18:11] <aaronlev> we have loosly spec'd object attributes now in all accessibility apis, for name value pairs
# [18:11] <aaronlev> and we can invent new interfaces
# [18:11] <Hixie> aaronlev: right but that's UA-level innovation, not author-level
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# [18:12] <aaronlev> Hixie: the UA innovation would not be to create enumerations for the new role
# [18:12] <aaronlev> Hixie: the UA innovation would be to describe what the role inherits from, what it's properties are, the types for those properties, whether changes are relevant for presentatioin, and the localizations required
# [18:12] <hsivonen> I still very sceptical about authors minting new roles
# [18:13] <aaronlev> i've spoken with several screen reader vendors
# [18:13] <aaronlev> this is not really a problem
# [18:13] <aaronlev> it uses inheritance for one thing, so you aren't wrong if you use the fallback mechanism
# [18:13] <Hixie> you'll have to explain to me how this works
# [18:14] <aaronlev> basically the AT can choose to look at the standard role, which is from the known set in MSAA/ATK
# [18:14] <hsivonen> I expect this to require something like microformats.org for AT roles
# [18:15] <aaronlev> or to look directly at the role string, in case a newer version has support for a newer role
# [18:15] <aaronlev> or it can look at the object properties tat describe what to do with the new role
# [18:15] <aaronlev> you can also script the AT to have special functionaility for a custom role
# [18:15] <aaronlev> this is like JAWS scripts for the desktop now
# [18:15] <aaronlev> only in this case the app is a web page
# [18:16] <aaronlev> the object properties describe how to present a text version of the object and its properties and how to present changes to those properties
# [18:16] <ChrisWilson> Do we still need a 4:00PM discussion of Tests, licensing/hosting?
# [18:17] <aaronlev> so there are 3 ways the AT can handle it: 1) just fall back, 2) special code for new role, 3) use role+property description
# [18:17] <aaronlev> and 2 can be either in core AT or in AT scripts
# [18:17] <ChrisWilson> aaronlev - can perhaps you, Hixie anne and I share a table at lunch and discuss this? I'm trying to understand what we can/need to get out tomorrow's discussion
# [18:17] <aaronlev> ChrisWilson: i didn't come in today, unfortunately
# [18:18] <aaronlev> i can be avialble for a conf call after lunch
# [18:18] * Lachy waves to everyone
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# [18:18] <aaronlev> ChrisWilson: or catch rich schwerdtfeger
# [18:18] <ChrisWilson> ok, i'll try to catch Rich
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# [18:18] <oedipus> ChrisW: Rich is in #xhtml
# [18:19] * oedipus thinks he is physically still in with the XHTML2 wg, too...
# [18:19] <ChrisWilson> If you're around on IRC after lunch, I'll let you know scheduling.
# [18:19] <ChrisWilson> thanks oe
# [18:19] <oedipus> np
# [18:19] <ChrisWilson> er, oedipus
# [18:19] <oedipus> you can call me oeddie
# [18:20] * ChrisWilson is still not used to AthenaIRC's autocomplete, and still finds it distracting.
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# [18:20] * oedipus shudders at the thought of IRC autocomplete -- it's hard enough to type and listen to 2 audio sources at the same time
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# [18:21] <MikeSmith> [lunchtime]
# [18:21] <aaronlev> autocomplete would be better with brain input and machine learning
# [18:21] <Lachy> [dinnertime] ;-)
# [18:21] <oedipus> there are some STRANGE autocomplete implementations out their
# [18:21] <aaronlev> :)
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# [18:21] <oedipus> duh, there
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# [18:21] <aaronlev> not serious, in case anyone is worried
# [18:22] <oedipus> i just found out that in the google search box, a dropdown list appears when one begins to type -- same thing at ask.com -- which i discovered through sheer clumsiness (blind luck)
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# [18:23] <oedipus> now that's a case where ARIA would help -- it would at least tell me that a dropdown was there
# [18:23] <ChrisWilson> reconvene at 1:30.
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# [19:23] <MikeSmith> KevinLawver - where you?
# [19:24] <KevinLawver> MikeSmith - right outside the meeting room talking to glazou
# [19:24] <MikeSmith> ah
# [19:24] <KevinLawver> Are we starting?
# [19:24] <MikeSmith> anne and ChrisWilson talking ... the rest of us are still digesting our baklava
# [19:24] * anne lol
# [19:24] <KevinLawver> on my way...
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# [19:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: which session will you be in?
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# [19:28] * Philip gets a totally exciting rotating cube
# [19:29] <hsivonen> Philip: in Opera?
# [19:29] <Philip> hsivonen: Yes
# [19:30] <Philip> Well, it's not really a cube, because it has some triangular holes in the side which shouldn't be there
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# [19:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm in versioning
# [19:36] <MikeSmith> [waiting on Chris to get started]
# [19:36] <justin> http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
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# [19:38] <MikeSmith> [Chris plugs in to projector]
# [19:38] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
# [19:38] * oedipus is chris AC or DC?
# [19:38] * MichaelC MikeSmith, were you looking to me for scribing? I might be able to do so for the next hour
# [19:38] <MikeSmith> CW: So ... versioning.
# [19:39] <MikeSmith> Slide from Chris: Once a web developer has written, tweaked and debugged their page to get it to work across browsers, the definition of "correct behavior" is "my page still works".
# [19:39] <MikeSmith> CW: Quirks mode is no longer that popular ...
# [19:40] <MikeSmith> ... back [sometime in the past] we found only 1 out of 200 sites that were in strict/standards mode ...
# [19:40] <MikeSmith> ... out of top 200 web sites ...
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# [19:40] <MikeSmith> ... but did it recently and found ...
# [19:40] <MikeSmith> ... that 99 out of 200 were in strict/standards mode ...
# [19:41] <MikeSmith> IH: 3 modes in most browsers: Standards, Almost Standards, and Quirks
# [19:41] <fantasai> IH: where Almost Standards is Standards with the images-in-tables quirk
# [19:42] <fantasai> IH: Using the algorithm in HTML5, about 9% trigger Standards mode, ~20% trigger Almost Standards
# [19:42] <hsivonen> Hixie, I see a G4-compatible power cord on this side of the table
# [19:42] <MikeSmith> IH: definitely a trend toward standards mode
# [19:42] <MikeSmith> CW mentions child-selector hack
# [19:43] <myakura> explaining the 3 rendering modes http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Mozilla's_DOCTYPE_sniffing
# [19:43] <MikeSmith> ... which depended on a certain CSS feature being not-supported in IE ...
# [19:44] <MikeSmith> ... but after they fixed IE by adding that support, it broke all pages that rely on that hack ...
# [19:44] <MikeSmith> CW: people use library/frameworks that fix these problems for them ...
# [19:45] <MikeSmith> ... so they don't themselves know what specific problems exist ...
# [19:45] <MikeSmith> fantasai : How many problems are in CSS and how many in HTML?
# [19:46] <MikeSmith> CW: in IE7, vast majority were in CSS
# [19:46] * Parts: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192)
# [19:46] <MikeSmith> fantasai : so why not put a version switch in CSS
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# [19:46] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : right now, we have a switch per-document
# [19:46] <MikeSmith> travis: CSS has this DOM appendage ...
# [19:47] <KevinLawver> The other problem is that the CSSWG has been against any form of versioning in the spec.
# [19:47] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : hard part is figuring out how to interop ...
# [19:48] <jgraham_> http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html
# [19:48] <MikeSmith> mjs : using the term "Super Standards Mode" is misleading here, because what it sounds like what you want is an unbounded series of quirks mode ...
# [19:48] <fantasai> mjs++
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# [19:49] <MikeSmith> mjs : Would it not be better to have an IE-specific switch?
# [19:49] <karl> q+ to ask if a version attribute will create issues
# [19:49] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [19:49] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : yeah, but it would need to be opt-in
# [19:51] <MikeSmith> plinss : I think everybody agrees your (ChrisWilson) logic is sound, withint your realm
# [19:52] <fantasai> ?: What if Firefox was in this situation?
# [19:52] <fantasai> ?: What if they were faced with making a change that would break a large number of pages. Wouldnt' they want a switch?
# [19:52] <fantasai> Hixie: I don't think we're deciding here whether a given browser should have its own set of switches.
# [19:53] <MikeSmith> s/?: What if Firefox/TravisLeithead: What if Firefox/
# [19:53] <fantasai> David: I don't think we'd make a decision that compromised the ability of new browsers to enter the market.
# [19:53] <MikeSmith> s/?:/TravisLeithead:/
# [19:53] * hober imagines replacing opaque DOCTYPE talisman with "when I tested this site, FF was v2.0.9, IE was v7, ..."
# [19:54] <fantasai> Hixie explains that if each version of the dominant browser introduces a new mode that web sites can rely upon never to change, a version of the browser many years from now will have to implement 15 different layout modes
# [19:55] <fantasai> ... each full of undocumented bugs, and this makes it nearly impossible for a new browser to be created that is compatible with existing content.
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# [19:56] * KevinLawver disagrees that "most" developers develop for firefox first. Most "good" web developers do it that way, but they are by far in the minority.
# [19:57] <fantasai> chris and hixie discuss how authors check their sites and develop pages
# [19:58] <fantasai> Chris: we're not expecting other browsers to get content that is written for those 15 compatibility modes
# [19:58] * fantasai forgets what Chris said after that
# [19:59] * gavin_ if you don't expect browsers to get content that it written for those modes, why do they need to be supported?
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# [20:00] <fantasai> ??: I don't think any of these problems you're discussing have anything to do with HTML version numbers.
# [20:00] <Marcos> s/??/KD
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# [20:00] <KevinLawver> +q KevinLawver question about how long this is actually a problem...
# [20:00] * Zakim KevinLawver, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:01] <KevinLawver> Zakim, +q KevinLawver
# [20:01] <Zakim> I see karl, KevinLawver on the speaker queue
# [20:01] <karl> ack karl
# [20:01] <Zakim> karl, you wanted to ask if a version attribute will create issues
# [20:01] * Zakim sees KevinLawver on the speaker queue
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# [20:01] <fantasai> Molly joins
# [20:01] <hober> fantasai: exactly. "author signaling to MSIE to use mode X" has nothing to do with "author signalling which release of the HTML spec she was authoring to"
# [20:02] <fantasai> Hixie: I think we understand your position. What are your goals with this discussion?
# [20:02] <fantasai> Chris: I think I'm missing a lot of the subtleties from other points of view.
# [20:02] <fantasai> Chris doesn't think having the spec reflect reality and reality reflecting the spec is true (?)
# [20:03] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, Authors are not going to want to require a permanent opt-in that needs to be updated every time a new IE ships. We need to develop a solution that let's us phase out the requirement for an explicit, IE-only opt-in over time.
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# [20:04] * KevinLawver wonders how one removes themselves from the queue. ChrisWilson just asked the question I had.
# [20:04] <hsivonen> q+ to ask about the UA string
# [20:04] * Zakim sees KevinLawver, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [20:04] <fantasai> Hixie brings up again David's point about the multiple quirks modes making it inordinately difficult for new browsers to enter the market.
# [20:04] <Dashiva> q- KevinLawver
# [20:04] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [20:04] * MikeSmith & anne & mjs at #webapi to for XHR discussion
# [20:04] <fantasai> Hixie: I don't think you understand the level to which we are scared.
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# [20:04] * oedipus says to KevinLawver use q-
# [20:04] <KevinLawver> Zakim, q- KevinLawver
# [20:04] <Zakim> I see hsivonen on the speaker queue
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# [20:05] <karl> KevinLawver, just do "q-"
# [20:06] <fantasai> Chris explains that he doesn't want the spec to be copying all of IE's problems
# [20:06] <fantasai> Chris: If FF and Opera do something reasonable and interoperable, we want to do that, not copy the insane bugs in IE
# [20:06] <karl> with Javascript, people relies on User Agent strings. Shall we remove them?
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# [20:06] <fantasai> Hixie asks a question I couldn't hear
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# [20:07] <fantasai> Hixie: The model you follow intentionally with IE7 of basically praying that people will fix their pages and finding that about half the people fix their pages
# [20:08] <fantasai> Hixie: is the model that other browsers follow.
# [20:08] <fantasai> Chris: Well, you saw what happened with our market share.
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# [20:08] <fantasai> Hixie: I think the rest of us are ok with that.
# [20:08] <mjs> I don't think IE's market share is falling due to fixing too many bugs
# [20:09] <fantasai> Chris goes back to his argument that HTML version numbers will fix his problem.
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# [20:09] <Dashiva> If so, because they fix workaround bugs before they fix the bugs they work around
# [20:09] <fantasai> Hsivonen: The approach that Apple took with the problem that content is written for certain UAs is that they made the UA string look close enough to the Firefox string that the sites that sniff it think it's Firefox
# [20:10] <fantasai> Hsivonen: and added other stuff so that statistics and later code can pick up on its existance.
# [20:10] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Are you planning a similar approache for IE7?
# [20:10] <hsivonen> q-
# [20:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:10] <fantasai> Chris: Not everyone is using UA sniffing to do that.
# [20:10] <fantasai> Chris: They might be using conditional comments, or CSS hacks.
# [20:11] <fantasai> Chris: The other problem is that UA string parsing is not uniform.
# [20:11] <fantasai> Chris: E.g. we're super-scared when we hit two-digit version numbers.
# [20:11] <fantasai> Chris: A bunch of people will detect us as IE1
# [20:11] <fantasai> Hakon: I think part of the pain you're feeling is due to not updating often.
# [20:12] <fantasai> Hakon: We develop continuously
# [20:12] <fantasai> Hakon: We release often
# [20:12] <fantasai> Hakon: The pain is constant, but it is not a severe pain.
# [20:12] <fantasai> Hixie: Release early and release often should help a lot with this problem.
# [20:12] <fantasai> TL: How many desktops still have Firefox 1.5 on them?
# [20:12] <fantasai> Hixie: Very few. Because the update system is good.
# [20:13] <karl> hmmm strategies of breaking stability for avoiding people developing for bugs
# [20:13] <karl> break the habits
# [20:13] <karl> or more about not creating habits
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# [20:13] <fantasai> TL: We will be continuing to service the old browser with its bad quirks for years, due to its deployment in industry.
# [20:13] * Chris is now known as ChrisWilson
# [20:13] <karl> Rousseau. The only good habit for a child is to not get any.
# [20:13] <fantasai> TL: Forcing someone's corporation to adapt to an ever-changing platform is a tough choice
# [20:14] <ChrisWilson> q?
# [20:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:14] <fantasai> TL: I guess it's why we're in favor of the opt-in
# [20:14] <fantasai> TL: If we guarantee that their old content will work when we redeploy, it's much safer.
# [20:14] <fantasai> Hakon: This was tried when quirks mode was introduced.
# [20:15] <fantasai> Hakon: Those who went into standards mode, opted for standards.
# [20:15] <fantasai> Molly: Most of the doctypes out there are not chosen by people. They're generated by authoring tools. The authors don't know that they opted in.
# [20:15] <fantasai> Chris: Whether or not they opted in on purpose, they were opting in to something that meant the same for all browsers: give me the right behavior.
# [20:16] <fantasai> Chris: I think the thing that concerns me is that we'll have to end up do ing an opt-in that is IE-specific.
# [20:16] * KevinLawver wonders how much of this is an education problem instead of a technical/specification one.
# [20:16] <fantasai> Chris gives an example of author choosing IE9, or something, I couldn't tell
# [20:17] <fantasai> Hakon: So you're asking for a continuous series of opt-ins
# [20:17] * Quits: timbl (timbl@63.119.45.155) (Quit: timbl)
# [20:17] <fantasai> Chris says something convoluted
# [20:17] <PIon> How many desktops have FF1.3? Maybe, Boeing, say, is reluctant to change--we were told that.
# [20:17] <fantasai> Chris: I don't know that we'll be done with only one more switch.
# [20:18] * gavin_ who is TL?
# [20:18] <hsivonen> Chris asked for a way to date your understanding of standards
# [20:18] <fantasai> Chris: If a year from now, people start writing HTML5 .......
# [20:18] <fantasai> Hixie: That's a reason not to have a version switch in HTML. The cycle of HTML is much much greater than that of a browser.
# [20:18] <hsivonen> gavin, Travis from MS
# [20:19] <fantasai> Hixie: I honestly think it will take at least 10 years to standardize HTML.
# [20:19] <MikeSmith> gavin_ : TL is Travis Leithead from MS
# [20:19] * gavin_ thanks
# [20:19] <fantasai> Hixie: HTML4 which was 9 years ago still isn't done.
# [20:19] <fantasai> Hixie: Even if it's 5 years, it's still longer than browser releases.
# [20:19] <fantasai> Hixie: That's the longest you've gone, and by your own admission it's too long.
# [20:19] <fantasai> Hixie: I don't think an HTML version switch will solve your use case.
# [20:20] <fantasai> Chris: Here's the case I'm worried about.
# [20:20] <fantasai> Chris: We have to do opt-ins to make sure we don't break content today.
# [20:20] <fantasai> Chris: Simultaneously HTML5 is under development, and eventually will get stamped as a standard.
# [20:20] <fantasai> Chris: And at that point content will be written that is stamped as HTMl5.
# [20:20] <fantasai> Chris: At some point that content will reach a threshold, say 20%.
# [20:21] <fantasai> Chris: After that point, we can't make content break. So we
# [20:21] <fantasai> 'll need an opt-in switch for the next version of IE
# [20:22] <mauro> q?
# [20:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:22] <fantasai> Elika brings up again that HTML version switch isn't what Chris is looking for.
# [20:23] <fantasai> Chris repeats his arguments
# [20:23] <fantasai> Hixie: the problem is this.
# [20:24] <fantasai> Hixie: The idea of the spec is that you implement it once, and it will work for the overwhelming majority of content.
# [20:24] * karl wonders if there is a *detailed* list of things which break because of different modes
# [20:24] <fantasai> Hixie: it is impossible for all content to work, because some of that content will be written for a specific version of a specific browser.
# [20:24] <fantasai> Hixie: But we can get the overwhelming majority.
# [20:24] <fantasai> Hixie: My goal for the spec is to write a definition that if you match the spec, you'll have a browser that will handle the overwhelming majority of content.
# [20:25] <fantasai> Hixie: You won't handle content that is deeply IE-specific, but you'll handle the overwhelming majority of content.
# [20:25] <fantasai> Hixie: All browsers can have their own private extensions, that's independent of this;
# [20:25] <karl> q?
# [20:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:26] <molly> --q
# [20:26] <molly> q- molly
# [20:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:27] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
# [20:27] <karl> q+ molly
# [20:27] * Zakim sees molly on the speaker queue
# [20:27] <molly> thanks Karl
# [20:28] <ChrisWilson> Elika: why can't you do opt-out to IE-version-specific behavior instead?
# [20:28] <mauro> ack molly
# [20:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:28] <fantasai> Molly: This is a difficult core issue that I'm experiencing as someone who works between vendors, specs, and workers of the wild web.
# [20:28] <fantasai> Molly: We cannot, whatever solution we come up with, we cannot expect that authors will be able to take on the responsibility for adding the switch.
# [20:29] <fantasai> Molly: Let me give a case scenario. You're company X and you hire web design company B to do your stuff. THey're done, they ship it to you.
# [20:29] <fantasai> Molly: Then suddenly it breaks.
# [20:29] <fantasai> Molly: The masses are not where we are. That's just a fact.
# [20:30] <fantasai> Molly: This is not opt-in.
# [20:30] <fantasai> Molly: They don't get it.
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# [20:30] <fantasai> Hakon: Shouldn't we expect that much?
# [20:30] <ChrisWilson> q+ to talk about tools
# [20:30] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
# [20:31] <fantasai> Hakon: I would expect that when you put a declaration at the top, either there is some thinking either on the part of the author or on the part of the tool vendor.
# [20:31] <fantasai> Molly: You can't trust that.
# [20:31] <KevinLawver> Wouldn't that then put the onus on the tool vendors? Where's Steve Zilles?
# [20:31] <fantasai> Hakon: So how do you trust versioning?
# [20:31] <fantasai> Hakon: How does that solve your problem?
# [20:31] <fantasai> Molly: I don't know.
# [20:32] <fantasai> Karl: We're getting mails from people trying to sue W3C because of the doctype
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# [20:32] <fantasai> Molly: we can't trust authors to do the right thing.
# [20:32] <fantasai> Molly: There are huge gaps in their education.
# [20:32] <ChrisWilson> q+ Henri
# [20:32] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Henri on the speaker queue
# [20:33] <fantasai> Hakon: I think we understand. But since versioning doesn't solve that problem, it's not relevant to this discussion.
# [20:33] <ChrisWilson> ack henri
# [20:33] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
# [20:33] <oedipus> q+
# [20:33] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, oedipus on the speaker queue
# [20:33] <mauro> s/trying to sue/threatening to sue/
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# [20:34] <dbaron> Molly says she's objecting to requiring authors to opt in
# [20:34] <fantasai> Chris: I'm not sure you understand what the tool has to generate.
# [20:35] <fantasai> Chris: If our tools don't generate work in IE, we have a problem.
# [20:35] <fantasai> Chris: So we could have a tool that generates a switch that locks us in to the current version of IE.
# [20:36] <fantasai> Chris: The problem is that we're proliferating that switch.
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# [20:38] <fantasai> Elika: So you want to generate an HTML version number that will match and trigger an IE layout mode.
# [20:38] <fantasai> Chris: yeah
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# [20:39] <fantasai> Hsivonen: So wouldn't it make just as much sense to use an IE version number or a datestamp?
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# [20:40] <karl> http://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=meta++creationdate+content+name&spell=1
# [20:40] <karl> <meta name="creation date" content="January 2003">
# [20:40] <fantasai> Peter explains scenario that an HTML5 document is written for IE8
# [20:40] <karl> <meta name="creationdate" content="Fri Aug 31 14:25:26 2001">
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# [20:40] <fantasai> IE8 has bugs, so author makes some hacks.
# [20:41] <karl> <meta name="creation date" content="June2003">
# [20:41] <fantasai> Then IE9 comes out with fixes for those bugs in HTML 5
# [20:41] <karl> already 3 ways
# [20:41] * olivier finds a disturbing resemblance between some ideas here, and the "best viewed with netscape" of old
# [20:41] * Quits: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [20:41] <fantasai> It's the same standard, different behavior in IE
# [20:41] <karl> <meta http=equip="creation-date" content="03-Oct-97">
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# [20:41] <KevinLawver> <head profile="http://microsoft.com/ie/8">
# [20:42] <fantasai> Peter: You'll need to add addition atriggers to get the right behavior for HTML5 in IE9
# [20:42] <fantasai> etc.
# [20:42] <karl> <META NAME="DC.Date.created" CONTENT="YYYYMMDD">
# [20:42] <fantasai> Peter: What you want is the author to say "I made this page for HTML5 and IE8".
# [20:42] * Quits: timbl_ (timbl@63.119.45.155) (Quit: timbl_)
# [20:42] <fantasai> Chris: If we could get authors to say that, that would be great.
# [20:43] <fantasai> David Baron: Hacks like the child-selector hack are bad when targetting the current version of a UA. They're fine for old UAs.
# [20:44] * ChrisWilson agrees with David Baron
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# [20:44] <fantasai> Peter: There is no perfect solution.
# [20:44] <karl> rm -rf web.*
# [20:44] * KevinLawver agrees with ChrisWilson agreeing with David Baron
# [20:45] <karl> let's start fresh
# [20:45] <Dashiva> karl: Isn't that xhtml2?
# [20:45] <oedipus> zakim?
# [20:45] <fantasai> Peter: Putting a version in the HTML doesn't necessarily line up with putting version sin browsers
# [20:45] * ChrisWilson agrees. Burn it all!
# [20:45] <kazuhito> FYI: http://www.webstandards.org/2005/11/27/pandoras-box-model-of-css-hacks-and-other-good-intentions/
# [20:46] * oedipus has his arm still in the air to make a comment before it becomes moot
# [20:46] <KevinLawver> The problem is that the hacks became ingrained because we were stuck with IE6 for so long. Doesn't this problem go away when IE6 does?
# [20:46] <fantasai> David: So, I think trying to solve this in anyway is potentially more dangerous, potentially creates a bigger problem than what we're trying to fix.
# [20:46] <ChrisWilson> q+ oe
# [20:46] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, oedipus, oe on the speaker queue
# [20:46] <fantasai> Peter: But ignoring the problem isn't making it go away.
# [20:46] <ChrisWilson> ack Chris
# [20:46] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to talk about tools
# [20:46] * Zakim sees oedipus, oe on the speaker queue
# [20:46] <hsivonen> dbaron++
# [20:46] <ChrisWilson> (done)
# [20:46] <fantasai> Peter: There has to be a solution.
# [20:46] <hober> KevinLawver: assuming IEN release cycles are shorter than the 6-to-7 one, sure
# [20:46] <ChrisWilson> ack oe
# [20:46] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [20:46] <oedipus> implementors are constantly asking for users to justify their concerns and use cases -- where is the "proof" that what crude tools we have at our disposal are the products of user-driven demand, rather than the product of convenience and perceived market-advantage on the part of implementors?
# [20:46] <oedipus> there are three layers of users being addressed by HTML5: developers, implementors/authors and end-users, and end-user concerns must be accorded the bang important in this cascade -- not the artificial marketplace created by individual developers which limits the choices available to implementors/authors, and hence compromises the user's ability to utilize the native mechanisms of a markup language, due to the restraints imposed upon the user by developers
# [20:46] <ChrisWilson> ack oedipus
# [20:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:47] <ChrisWilson> oedipus?
# [20:47] <fantasai> David: But there doesn't have to be a solution that creates a bigger problem than it fixes.
# [20:47] <KevinLawver> hober, I think we have that commitment from Mr. Wilson and crew.
# [20:47] * oedipus dumped his comments into IRC
# [20:47] <ChrisWilson> thx, just a sec
# [20:47] <fantasai> Peter: We all want to get to the point where everyone implements the same standard interoperably.
# [20:47] <fantasai> Hakon: I don't see how extending the matrix will make it smaller.
# [20:47] * Quits: timbl (timbl@63.119.45.155) (Ping timeout)
# [20:48] <fantasai> Chris: I'm going to have to extend the matrix anyway. I want to make the default over time the stuff that we really want, and the stuff that's IE8-specific, IE9-specific goes away
# [20:48] <fantasai> Hakon: Every other switch that we've introduced in the past, we haven't been able to get rid of.
# [20:49] <fantasai> Hakon: If we had N switches, and we add another one, we have N+1
# [20:49] <PIon> How about considering (thinking about) how natural language handles the same problem of changing languages and vocabularies, changing readers and their educations, and changing dictionaries, contexts and uttterance types?
# [20:49] <KevinLawver> oedipus++
# [20:49] <fantasai> Hakon: We had ua strings, and then we added quirks mode.
# [20:49] <fantasai> Hakon: But quirks mode didn't make ua strings go away.
# [20:49] <fantasai> Hakon: I don't see versioning making either of them go away.
# [20:50] <fantasai> Chris reads oedipus' quote
# [20:50] * oedipus thanks ChrisW
# [20:50] <ChrisWilson> oedipus, what did you mean by "and hence compromises the user's ability to utilize the native mechanisms of a markup language, due to the restraints imposed upon the user by developers "?
# [20:51] <ChrisWilson> I think you're saying "users have to win"?
# [20:51] <oedipus> there are many things in HTML 4.01 that were added for very specific reasons, but weren't supported
# [20:51] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@80.143.138.250) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.9/2007102514])
# [20:51] <ChrisWilson> is user == web developer or == end user?
# [20:51] <oedipus> end users have to win -- that is ultimately ALL our target audience --
# [20:52] <molly> oedipus +++
# [20:52] <ChrisWilson> ok. Thx.
# [20:52] <oedipus> tools are made for peoples' use, not the other way around, is what i'm trying to say
# [20:52] <hsivonen> oedipus, added for reason X doesn't mean that it solves problem X
# [20:52] <ChrisWilson> Any further points on this discussion? or can we move on?
# [20:53] <fantasai> Topic: HTML5 for authors
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# [20:53] <oedipus> hsivonen, but when you have 2 groups (UA devs and assisstive tech devs) waiting for the other to implement feature X, and one can't until the other does, that doesn't mean reason X DIDN'T solve problem X
# [20:55] <fantasai> Karl: In the beginning the spec was only for implementors. Slowly people accepted that parts of the spec were for authors, explaining requirements of HTML5 for authors.
# [20:55] <fantasai> Karl: But that part of the text is incomprehensible to normal human beings.
# [20:56] <fantasai> Karl: Putting something understandable in the document will confuse the impelementors, or will be hard to understand for authors
# [20:56] <fantasai> Karl: So we need a separate document for authors.
# [20:56] <fantasai> Karl: How will we do this?
# [20:57] <fantasai> Ben: I support that we need to help authors with this.
# [20:57] <dbaron> (Ben == Ben Millard)
# [20:57] <fantasai> TL: We're seeing the same problem, authors need to search the web to see e.g. what element can be contained in what.
# [20:58] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer
# [20:58] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-irc#T19-57-18
# [20:58] <fantasai> Tl: We need to write this.
# [20:58] <fantasai> TL: We also need to get this information to the authors.
# [20:58] * Quits: peterl (peter.lins@15.243.169.69) (Quit: peterl)
# [20:58] <fantasai> Molly: I think we can do that. It's very important that we make very clear documentation. Once we have quality stuff, I think getting the word out is less of a problem.
# [20:59] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.45.72)
# [20:59] <fantasai> Scott: Going back to the versioning discussion for a bit -- we're having problems getting authors to write these things, but when did we ever tell them to do it?
# [20:59] * dbaron wonders if somebody with access to tracker could add a pointer to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-irc#T18-37-49 in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4 ?
# [20:59] <smedero> done
# [20:59] <smedero> (or in progress :) )
# [20:59] <fantasai> Karl: First we need to extract the requirements
# [20:59] <fantasai> Karl: extract the content models
# [20:59] <PIon> q+ is an ancillary Primer being asked for?
# [20:59] * Zakim PIon, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:59] <fantasai> Karl: Then write scenarios explaining these.
# [21:00] <PIon> q+ Primer?
# [21:00] * Zakim sees Primer? on the speaker queue
# [21:00] <fantasai> Karl: One person can't do everything for this kind of document
# [21:00] <fantasai> Karl: So I would suggest we define a kind of template
# [21:00] <PIon> q- Primer?
# [21:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:00] <fantasai> Karl: For each element, you have to give this information, this is content model, here are two examples, here is reference material.
# [21:01] <PIon> q+ Pion, Is it a primer you want?
# [21:01] * Zakim PIon, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [21:01] <fantasai> Karl: It would be good if those who can reach out to authors put this information where authors will find them
# [21:01] <Dashiva> PIon: do q+ to ask bla bla bla
# [21:01] <oedipus> scott, what about http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG10 and http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20 in conjunction with http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/
# [21:01] <PIon> q+
# [21:01] * Zakim sees PIon on the speaker queue
# [21:01] <fantasai> Molly: I think if we create a bullet list of things the author needs to do, that would be great
# [21:02] <fantasai> Molly: Like you said, before we didn't communicate what we wanted authors to write
# [21:02] <fantasai> Molly: Many people aren't at a good level of understanding of standards. it's improving over time.
# [21:03] <fantasai> Molly: HTMl5 is a great opportunity to improve that.
# [21:03] <fantasai> Karl: We should also consider the question of style. Authors can't read and understand the w3c documents
# [21:03] <fantasai> Patrick: We should write a Primer
# [21:04] <Dashiva> (Most w3c primers aren't exactly easy reading either)
# [21:04] <fantasai> Patrick: other working groups have a similar set of parallel documents: a very dry spec and a primer
# [21:04] * fantasai agrees with Dashiva
# [21:04] <fantasai> Molly: I think the issue is that we need to understand our audience.
# [21:04] <fantasai> Molly: Implementors need one language.
# [21:04] <fantasai> Molly: Authors need a completely different language.
# [21:05] <fantasai> Molly: and sometimes vendors need yet another language
# [21:05] <fantasai> Molly: If there's anything I can do to bridge into author-land, that's what I'm here for.
# [21:05] * Joins: plinss (peter.lins@15.243.169.70)
# [21:06] <fantasai> Molly: vendors = tools authors, system technology vendors
# [21:06] <fantasai> Karl: validators
# [21:06] <fantasai> Molly: CMS developers
# [21:06] * Joins: arun_ (arunranga@64.236.139.249)
# [21:06] <fantasai> TL: A third tier is the garage programmer, very very simplistic view with lots and lots of examples.
# [21:07] <fantasai> TL describes a recipe book, almost. I want to make a chat program, I want to make a forum.
# [21:07] * Quits: drry (drry@222.225.140.32) (Quit: drry)
# [21:07] <fantasai> Kevin: This is why we have people like Molly and Eric Meyer
# [21:07] * Quits: arun (arunranga@63.119.45.84) (Ping timeout)
# [21:07] * arun_ is now known as arun
# [21:07] <fantasai> Kevin: W3C doesn't need to provide every single application and best practice.
# [21:07] <PIon> Is it not expected that the literature around the spec will evolve as it has for earlier HTML specs?
# [21:07] <fantasai> Kevin: The primer should be short, sweet, from what you know now to what you need to know
# [21:08] <fantasai> Karl: How do we organize the main primer and how do we link to best practices, e.g. on the wiki
# [21:08] <fantasai> Elika: I think you should put the whole thing on the wiki
# [21:08] <fantasai> examples: Mozilla wiki, php wiki
# [21:08] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.45.72) (Connection reset by peer)
# [21:08] <fantasai> Yahoo and BBC publishing best practices
# [21:09] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.45.72)
# [21:09] <fantasai> Molly: A lot of large organizations will be helpful in bringing good communication
# [21:09] * Quits: tantek (tantek@70.13.63.235) (Quit: tantek)
# [21:09] <fantasai> Molly: We need to facilitate that effort. It's almost like a liaison role
# [21:10] <PIon> A wiki is a fine example of a new style of channel that might be used in the new situation here. It should be as much as possible actually using the technology being explained.
# [21:11] <MikeSmith> [MikeSmith stops by the HTML Authoring session and notes there are 20+ people in attendance]
# [21:11] <fantasai> Elika: A lot of large corporations need to develop good documentation on best practices, etc for their own web developers. If they collaborated, they'd each get more out of it.
# [21:12] <fantasai> Elika: This is similar to Mozilla: HP, IBM, Sun each had their own OS and needed a web browser. Instead of building a new one, they contributed to the mozilla project and ported it to their OS.
# [21:12] <fantasai> Elika: Our role, like the Mozilla Organization, would be to facilitate that coordination
# [21:13] <fantasai> Molly, Karl: We should form a liaison group to do that.
# [21:13] <fantasai> Karl: What does AOL use?
# [21:14] <fantasai> Kevin: Drupal. Or a wiki.
# [21:14] <PIon> You could perhaps start an XG of people interested in writing about the new HTML situation.
# [21:14] <fantasai> Kevin: I had a conversation with Kai from Mobile Web Best practice about dropping the M and making it just Web Best Practice.
# [21:15] <molly> Kevin +++
# [21:15] <fantasai> Kevin: people in my world don't understand the difference between the spec, the impl, and the best practices around that.
# [21:16] <smedero> I'm having trouble finding the messages from public-html but it was said that the JAWS and other companies/group implementing AT technology have been invited to the W3C process over and over... and yet they aren't participating. It would be nice to at least understand why they aren't... I mean maybe they feel there are serious legal concerns or ??? but I think to the common working group member - their silence on AT issues in the HTML5 spec defies logic.
# [21:16] <fantasai> Kevin: Best practices bubble up. And they change.
# [21:16] * olivier [15:15] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-34 - Write blog entry on difference between spec, implementation and best practices [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2007-11-16].
# [21:16] <molly> smedero I've experienced that as well, and do not quite understand it
# [21:16] <fantasai> Kevin: The best practices when the Zen Garden came out are not the same as they are today.
# [21:17] <ChrisWilson> 1 hr
# [21:17] <oedipus> smedero, they have a shortage of bodies -- they are relying on stadards harmonization or else they are busy writing custom scripts for individual applications
# [21:17] <oedipus> make that "standards harmonization"
# [21:17] <fantasai> Molly: What I'm thinking is finding those people that are interested in sitting and listening and working with the HTMLWG
# [21:17] <fantasai> Molly: and have a conversation, working on a document, and put it out in the wild
# [21:18] <fantasai> Molly: and then the best practices bubble up
# [21:18] * fantasai couldn't find a consistent sentence in there...
# [21:18] <fantasai> grammatically-speaking
# [21:18] <oedipus> molly, there is the open source a11y project: http://www.oatsoaft.org/ - and the NVDA project (received mozilla grant)
# [21:18] <fantasai> Kevin: I love the ideal, but I'm not convinced...
# [21:19] <fantasai> Kevin: People have more good intentions than they have time.
# [21:19] <fantasai> Ben: The i18n team has been writing faqs etc on character encoding
# [21:19] <oedipus> smedero & molly, another challange for small AT companies is supporting multiple versions of a particular operating system
# [21:20] <fantasai> Molly: the i18n group's documents are considerably more clear than the rest of w3c stuff, for a topic that is much more obscure than other w3c technologies
# [21:21] <KevinLawver> primers and best practices are non-normative.
# [21:22] <oedipus> smedero & molly, not that i don't personally think that they have an excuse -- if they helped push for harmonization, things might be a good deal easier
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# [21:23] <KevinLawver> hsivonen, that's why there will be tech editing for the primers.
# [21:23] <fantasai> Hsivonen: there's a risk that the best practices will include recommendations that don't really make a difference
# [21:23] <fantasai> Hsivonen: and the author has no way to know if fixing that is a waste of their time.
# [21:23] <fantasai> Karl: It's not about forcing, it's about suggesting.
# [21:24] <mauro> -> http://alistapart.com/articles/readspec/ A List Apart's article on How to Read W3C Specs
# [21:24] <KevinLawver> Zaxim, +q kevinlawver to ask about w3c's "purpose"
# [21:25] <olivier> it's q+
# [21:25] <ChrisWilson> q+ kevinLawver to ask about w3c's purpose
# [21:25] * Zakim sees PIon, kevinLawver on the speaker queue
# [21:25] * KevinLawver apologizes... too excited to spell correctly.
# [21:25] <ChrisWilson> :_
# [21:25] * mauro :)
# [21:25] <ChrisWilson> :)
# [21:25] <molly> why does kevin remind me of arnold horschak at the moment?
# [21:26] <olivier> q+ to mention semantics
# [21:26] * Zakim sees PIon, kevinLawver, olivier on the speaker queue
# [21:26] <KevinLawver> ooh ooh ooh, Mr. Kotter!!
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# [21:27] <fantasai> Hsivonen explains that one group gets their practices enshrined in W3C document, and another group that does differently but doesn't break anything doesn't
# [21:27] <mauro> ack kev
# [21:27] <Zakim> kevinLawver, you wanted to ask about w3c's purpose
# [21:27] * Zakim sees PIon, olivier on the speaker queue
# [21:27] <dbaron> I think there's a difference between best practice and convention.
# [21:28] <dbaron> Documenting convention is fine, but you shouldn't call it best practice.
# [21:28] <fantasai> and now they're against the W3C best practices, and have to waste their time to fi their stuff
# [21:29] <MichaelC> q+ to say W3C specs usually are more successful when somebody markets them, Best Practices is one good way to do that
# [21:29] * Zakim sees PIon, olivier, MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [21:29] <olivier> q- later
# [21:29] * Zakim sees PIon, MichaelC, olivier on the speaker queue
# [21:29] <fantasai> Kevin: Is this the W3C's role? We can't as the HTMLWG answer this question. this goes to the tag or ab or ac to say we are going to get into documenting best practices and stand behind them and say this is what it means to be professional
# [21:29] * fantasai dbaron, you should speak up that's important
# [21:29] <dbaron> q+
# [21:29] * Zakim sees PIon, MichaelC, olivier, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [21:30] <olivier> q- olivier
# [21:30] * Zakim sees PIon, MichaelC, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [21:30] <fantasai> Molly: The issue here is critical. As former group lead of WaSP, I know that it is impossible for volunteer organization to play the role of "we are best practices".
# [21:31] <fantasai> Molly: Jeffrey Zeldman, who is looked upon as being next to God wrt standards, said "what problem are we facing in web standards, I see no problem, as long as we have xhtml and css2 we have no problem"
# [21:31] <fantasai> Molly: And that's just dumb
# [21:31] <fantasai> Molly: We need some quality assurance. We need to shift [to where??]
# [21:32] <fantasai> Molly: making best practices happen
# [21:32] <fantasai> Molly: simplified, clarified information that is separate from the specs that is not only published by W3C but also extended into the community
# [21:32] <fantasai> Molly: Say this is what we have studied as a problem.
# [21:32] <ChrisWilson> ack pion
# [21:32] * Zakim sees MichaelC, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [21:32] <fantasai> Molly: This is a critically missing piece
# [21:33] <KevinLawver> (i'll do this in IRC so we can get to the queue) I'm not saying it shouldn't happen at all. Just that this needs to be an effort in the W3C as a whole to provide the bounds.
# [21:33] <fantasai> Patrick: I'm all in favor of educational documentation, but people have to figure out for themselves how to do it.
# [21:33] <ChrisWilson> ack MichaelC
# [21:33] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say W3C specs usually are more successful when somebody markets them, Best Practices is one good way to do that
# [21:33] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [21:33] <PIon> q-
# [21:33] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [21:33] <KevinLawver> @pion The best practices come out of people "figuring this out for themselves"
# [21:33] <fantasai> MichaelC: I agree with Molly, W3C Specifications are more successful when someone markets them. I think a lot of W3C specs have suffered from lack of marketing.
# [21:34] <fantasai> MichaelC: In the case of HTML this is really important. If the developer community understands the spec, they will demand implementations.
# [21:34] <fantasai> MichaelC: I'm not going to advocate for a mechanism: best practices is one of them.
# [21:34] <ChrisWilson> ack db
# [21:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:34] <fantasai> MichaelC: I don't care if W3C does the marketing or someone else, it must get done.
# [21:34] <ChrisWilson> ack dbaron
# [21:34] <molly> MichaelC +++
# [21:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:35] <fantasai> David Baron: I think there's a difference between best practice and convention, and it's fine to document each one, but you shouldn't label convention as best practice.
# [21:35] <fantasai> Molly: I agree, that's why we want liaison with the working group.
# [21:35] <KevinLawver> zakim, q+ kevinlawver to ask about personality cults
# [21:35] <Zakim> I see kevinlawver on the speaker queue
# [21:36] <fantasai> Molly, Justin: Yeah, we need an alternative to Jeffrey Zeldman declaring his conventions as THE way to do things.
# [21:36] <mauro> ack kev
# [21:36] <Zakim> kevinlawver, you wanted to ask about personality cults
# [21:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:36] <fantasai> Kevin: If it's just part of one working group, especially this one, there's still a danger of this becoming a personality cult.
# [21:36] <PIon> @KevinLawver quite so; I would worry that a spec has to be written here, and indeed a language is still to be finally developed; not all 300+ persons in the WG can or will be able to contriute to that.
# [21:36] <fantasai> Kevin: We do have these cults, and there's sometimes there's a lack of critical thinking. We can't let this become a personality cult.
# [21:37] * Quits: arun (arunranga@64.236.139.249) (Ping timeout)
# [21:37] <fantasai> Molly: I suggest we take this off the HTMLWG, and talk with the Architecture group and see if a liaison/QA group is something we need to revisit in this time and age.
# [21:38] <mauro> s/contriute/contribute/
# [21:38] <fantasai> Olivier: One thing, if you want to avoid the cult of personality, then maybe having it under the umbrella of W3C
# [21:38] <fantasai> Olivier: Second thing, the TAG won't care. That's not a problem.
# [21:38] <fantasai> Molly: They were interested enough to come to me.
# [21:38] <fantasai> Olivier: It would take awhile for this to go through the whole process. I think the HTMLWG has a chance of making it happen.
# [21:39] <fantasai> Olivier: If you're waiting for Members to submit, vote, charter, it will take years.
# [21:39] <KevinLawver> zakim, +q kevinlawver to suggest a guerilla + "proper" approach
# [21:39] <Zakim> I see kevinlawver on the speaker queue
# [21:39] <MichaelC> q+ to say "task force
# [21:39] * Zakim sees kevinlawver, MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [21:39] <MichaelC> q-
# [21:39] * Zakim sees kevinlawver on the speaker queue
# [21:39] <fantasai> Molly: So should we create a new group with this..
# [21:39] <fantasai> Elika: Task force. Make a task force.
# [21:40] <olivier> s/not a problem/not their problem/
# [21:40] <fantasai> Elika: I would sign up for HTMLWG to join that task force.
# [21:40] * MichaelC note that "task force" is a formal thing within W3C
# [21:40] <fantasai> Molly and Kevin raise their hands.
# [21:40] <mauro> ack kev
# [21:40] <Zakim> kevinlawver, you wanted to suggest a guerilla + "proper" approach
# [21:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:40] <fantasai> Kevin: The spec will take until 2010 at least.
# [21:40] <fantasai> Kevin: So we have two(?) choices:
# [21:41] <fantasai> Kevin: We can go guerilla, and do this partly on our own.
# [21:41] * ChrisWilson makes gorilla noises.
# [21:41] <fantasai> Kevin: And slowly start to approach the TAG etc and later fold it into the official group
# [21:41] * shepazu ook ook
# [21:41] <fantasai> strike "choices" line
# [21:41] <fantasai> Karl: I will take an action item to make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force
# [21:42] <PIon> q+ PIon to say you need a real spec as a basis
# [21:42] * Zakim sees PIon on the speaker queue
# [21:42] <PIon> q+ PIon to say you need a real spec as a basis
# [21:42] <fantasai> Karl: Around HTML5 for Authors
# [21:42] * Zakim sees PIon on the speaker queue
# [21:42] <PIon> q-
# [21:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:42] * olivier so long as the meetings don't go all bonobo-style... we can be gorillas
# [21:42] <ChrisWilson> [break declared]
# [21:42] * MichaelC olivier, you'd be missing out ;)
# [21:43] * Quits: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [21:43] <fantasai> breaktime
# [21:43] <mauro> ACTION: Karl to make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach
# [21:43] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [21:43] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Karl
# [21:43] * RRSAgent records action 20
# [21:43] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
# [21:43] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 12 users: Anne, Chris, Shawn, Dan, David, Michael(tm), Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
# [21:45] * MikeSmith notes that karl needs to be added to the html-tracker group using DBWG
# [21:45] * Quits: scottv (chatzilla@63.119.44.66) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518])
# [21:45] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.9/2007102514])
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# [21:48] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
# [21:48] <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
# [21:48] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
# [21:48] * trackbot-ng found 13 users
# [21:48] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
# [21:48] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
# [21:48] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 13 users: Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, David, Michael(tm), Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
# [21:48] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Karl to make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach
# [21:48] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [21:48] * RRSAgent records action 21
# [21:48] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-5 - Make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach [on Karl Dubost - due 2007-11-16].
# [21:50] * myakura wonders what types of form that the primer/bp/whatever document(s) would take
# [21:51] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [21:52] <myakura> if we do that in a wiki, it's great because it can be updated anytime by anybody
# [21:53] <myakura> however it's not that great because it'll be so hard catching up translating them...
# [21:53] <mauro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [21:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html mauro
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# [22:09] <myakura> Topic: TESTS: Licensing, hosting, etc.
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# [22:10] <jgraham_> anne, hacking html5lib at 17:00 or tomorrow?
# [22:10] <anne> 17:00 wfm, depending on what else gets proposed
# [22:12] <anne> HS: asks about CSS test licensing
# [22:12] <anne> EE: differs
# [22:13] <anne> EE: tests are on dev.w3.org, pulled nightly and build, then put on www.w3.org
# [22:14] <jgraham_> hacking html5lib added at 17:00
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# [22:17] <jgraham_> http://html5.org/parsing-tests/testrunner.htm
# [22:18] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/test/css2.1
# [22:18] <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/test/css2.1/review might be particularly interesting
# [22:19] <smedero> when where is the html5lib hacking happening?
# [22:19] <anne> [discussion about hosting tests and organizing]
# [22:19] <smedero> (I see 17:00... unclear on date and location)
# [22:20] <anne> html5lib hacking will be in B and about integrating support for SVG and MathML and such in text/html
# [22:20] <smedero> Ok... not quite where I'm using it right now but I'm still interested.
# [22:20] <MikeSmith> q+ to say I would prefer it were handled separately
# [22:20] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [22:20] <MikeSmith> q-
# [22:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:21] <fantasai> Anne suggests using a manifest file saying which files are valid and which invalid
# [22:21] <fantasai> Hixie suggests using just a list of invalid tests and assuming the rest are valid
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# [22:25] <fantasai> discuss whether we need both HTML and XHTML versions of tests
# [22:26] <fantasai> Anne explains that dev.w3.org has an automatic checkout directory
# [22:26] <fantasai> so that tests are browseable once they're checked in
# [22:26] <karl> http://twitter.com/kplawver/statuses/401920792
# [22:26] * shawn is now known as shanw-brb
# [22:27] * shanw-brb is now known as shawn-brb
# [22:28] <fantasai> e.g. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/CSS/CSS2.1-test-suite/cooked-tests/bz/t0402-syntax-02-f.xht vs http://dev.w3.org/CSS/CSS2.1-test-suite/cooked-tests/bz/t0402-syntax-02-f.xht
# [22:28] <fantasai> Hsivonen notes that the CSS2.1TS naming convention of using a test-topic string is useful
# [22:28] <fantasai> See http://csswg.inkedblade.net/test/css2.1/format#filename-format
# [22:29] <fantasai> dbaron wants the test format to have few requirements so that it is easy to write and contribute them
# [22:30] <fantasai> ppl want to have tests on their own sites rather than only centralized
# [22:31] <fantasai> dbaron lists some problems: knowing how to correlate between the two copies, having one defined as authoritative
# [22:31] <fantasai> dbaron: also someetimes there are problems with the owner being unresponsive
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# [22:33] * fantasai wants someone else to minute :( :(
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# [22:35] * Bert is in two minds about that: nobody minutes as well as fantasai, but she should also keep some energy for the CSS WG :-)
# [22:37] * ChrisWilson appreciates the loan of fantasai's skills, and will try to capture any interesting points for the rest of this discussion.
# [22:37] <karl> Hixie: it is academic discussion until someone decides to actually do it
# [22:38] <karl> fantasai: if there are many people with their own repository. Nobody should be writing on dev.w3.org
# [22:38] <karl> ... there should be only a mechanism to pull the tests from official repositories to the w3c server.
# [22:39] <karl> ... having two repositories for each person (personal + w3c) would not be convenient
# [22:39] <karl> ... the final authoritative repository should be w3.org
# [22:40] * ChrisWilson thinks the dim lighting in room has soporofic effect.
# [22:40] * fantasai notes that that is completely contractory
# [22:40] <fantasai> What I'm saying is, there has to be a clear authoritative version for each set of tests
# [22:40] * karl says ooops
# [22:40] <fantasai> either dev.w3.org is the authoritative version, or some group's personal repository is the authoritative version
# [22:41] * karl missed anne
# [22:41] <karl> anne: we should update the wiki with pointers to places with tests
# [22:41] <fantasai> personal websites should NOT be authoritative versions: in that case dev.w3.org should be authoritative and the person must make their personal copy a checkout of dev.w3.org and push their changes to dev.w3.org
# [22:41] <dbaron> (with DVCS, you don't have the authoritative version problem)
# [22:41] <oedipus> +1 to dev.w3.org for authoritative versions
# [22:41] <karl> ... it seems there are not yet a will to move everything to w3c servers
# [22:41] <fantasai> This is because if the person stops being active, it is no longer to change their files
# [22:42] <karl> hixie: but the reason would be to have all tests in one place
# [22:42] <fantasai> You can have two directories on w3: one that pulls from other groups' repositories and one that is authoritative for individuals to check into
# [22:42] <fantasai> but don't mix them
# [22:43] <karl> dbaron: the argument seems to be more around distributed version control more than testing repositories
# [22:43] <dbaron> hrm, I don't think that's what I said
# [22:43] <dbaron> I just said that people seem to be making an argument for distributed version control
# [22:43] <karl> which is what i have typed
# [22:44] <fantasai> not really
# [22:44] <karl> :)))
# [22:44] <karl> funny
# [22:45] <ChrisWilson> do I need to pull the sock puppet out again?
# [22:45] <karl> we need puppets
# [22:46] * ChrisWilson thinks real sock puppets would quickly devolve into Punch & Judy.
# [22:46] <karl> fantasai: which tests are not in the repository?
# [22:46] <karl> anne is going through the list
# [22:46] * karl would appreciate that anne puts the list on irc if it's relevant
# [22:46] * oedipus thinks the rest of the day's procedings should be conducted in mime or interpretive dance...
# [22:47] <MikeSmith> Philip - you around? where you keeping the source for your tests?
# [22:47] * shawn-brb is now known as shawn
# [22:47] <molly> oedipus I think this entire week has been surreal enough without adding sock puppetry, mime and interpretive dance
# [22:47] * Joins: scottv (chatzilla@63.119.44.66)
# [22:47] <molly> and would mime require a MIME type?
# [22:48] <oedipus> mime-type="silent+reflection/serenity"
# [22:48] * smedero groans
# [22:48] <molly> sorry :P
# [22:48] * karl hears process process process process.
# [22:48] <Philip> MikeSmith, the official source for my canvas tests is on my local disk, which occasionally gets uploaded to http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/source.tar.bz2
# [22:48] * ChrisWilson is really sorry he started something.
# [22:49] <smedero> oh no, Chris.... go crazy. Let's see some sock puppet action.
# [22:49] <karl> fantasai: you don't want contributions on your own tests
# [22:49] <karl> hixie: it is more than I don't want to open the access to my web site.
# [22:49] <MikeSmith> Philip - thanks. we talking here about possibility of consolidating some tests into central repository
# [22:49] <jgraham_> Not necessarily a central repository
# [22:49] <karl> ... I accept contributions through emails
# [22:50] <karl> ... and I fix the test myself
# [22:50] <jgraham_> But ways of organising testcases; the question of version control has come up
# [22:50] * ChrisWilson sees some value in not having global write access directly into test suite.
# [22:51] * fantasai wants to know what happens to hixie's tests when he decides html5 is less important than some other project
# [22:51] <anne> http://philip.html5.org/
# [22:51] <anne> http://simon.html5.org/test/
# [22:51] <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/
# [22:51] <anne> http://hixie.ch/tests/
# [22:51] <anne> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
# [22:51] * karl doesn't have the soundtrack of Priscillia on his laptop unfortunately to have people playing drama queens in the room.
# [22:51] * olivier does
# [22:52] * karl is not surprised
# [22:53] * mauro smiles at http://xkcd.com/277/
# [22:53] <Philip> MikeSmith, I think I prefer doing things locally for active development (since it's just easier and less hassle), but when things are mostly complete and stable (like the canvas tests) I'd be happy to move them elsewhere
# [22:53] * anne wonders if he missed any
# [22:53] <ChrisWilson> fantasai: if the tests are licensed appropriately (and I think they are), then we just take a snapshot and move them to W3C. Would be my vote, anyway.
# [22:53] <MikeSmith> Philip - understood
# [22:53] * anne ... yes, those from hsivonen
# [22:53] <Hixie> what ChrisWilson said
# [22:53] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/wa10/
# [22:54] <fantasai> and then what happens when you fix something? Are you going to tell people to fix the W3C copy?
# [22:54] <Hixie> (in fact i said that earlier -- when a test project dies, you just call the w3 backup the main source)
# [22:54] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/
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# [22:54] <ChrisWilson> if there's active development, the baton passes back to Hixie's version.
# [22:54] * karl notices that the very low voice of participants in this huge room makes it difficult to scribe
# [22:55] <ChrisWilson> hi ta
# [22:55] <fantasai> ChrisWilson: the baton can pass back to hixie's version only if someone else isn't simultaneously using the baton
# [22:55] * ChrisWilson agrees with karl
# [22:55] <hsivonen> (mine are more like demos in anne's and zcorpan's vocabulary)
# [22:55] * ChrisWilson agrees with fantasai. It should be a conscious (and conscientous) baton pass.
# [22:56] <ChrisWilson> I think we can be clear. If tests are languishing, we'll ask the author if we can move the "master" to W3C. If they want them back, we will hand them back.
# [22:56] <anne> ok, so I guess we'll sync with DanC_lap and do a dump somewhere
# [22:56] <fantasai> ok, but make sure you're very very obvious about where the master is
# [22:56] <fantasai> and dont' split it per-test
# [22:56] <fantasai> split it per-directory
# [22:57] * karl thinks this is just surrealistic
# [22:57] <ChrisWilson> sure
# [22:57] <ChrisWilson> karl - how so?
# [22:57] <anne> w3.org/html/tests/hixie/ ... or something
# [22:57] <ChrisWilson> the large room of silent people?
# [22:57] <karl> a bit of that
# [22:57] <smedero> I guess this satisfies the low voice problem.
# [22:57] * anne thought this might work better for the scribe
# [22:57] <olivier> /mode #html-wg +m
# [22:57] * mauro is fascinated that people are more comfortable typing than speaking :)
# [22:57] <karl> someone can put music
# [22:57] * fantasai blames it on the room
# [22:58] * ChrisWilson thinks he hears the theme to Jaws... or is that Psycho?
# [22:58] <karl> but I fear there will be debate on the style or conventions of music
# [22:58] <myakura> gigs again!
# [22:58] <karl> the floor is not good for hip-hop and breakdance
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# [22:59] <mauro> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
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# [23:01] <ChrisWilson> [adjourned this session - hacking html5lib is on now]
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# [23:04] <anne> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
# [23:04] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to create script for building PDF version of HTML5 spec using Prince
# [23:04] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [23:04] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-6 - Create script for building PDF version of HTML5 spec using Prince [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-16].
# [23:04] * RRSAgent records action 22
# [23:04] <anne> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source
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# [23:06] <DanC_> sync with me on what?
# [23:06] <anne> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source
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# [23:06] <anne> DanC_, hosting location for tests on w3.org
# [23:06] * Joins: PIon (3f772d8c@128.30.52.23)
# [23:07] <DanC_> how did the discussion of mercurial/hg go?
# [23:07] <MikeSmith> DanC_ - nowhere
# [23:07] <MikeSmith> yet
# [23:07] * Joins: smedero (smedero@63.119.45.128)
# [23:07] <DanC_> decentralized version control relaxes a lot of hosting constraints
# [23:08] <MikeSmith> yep. Nobody disagreeing with that
# [23:08] <DanC_> I use hgsvn sometimes, but I think it only goes one way, svn->hg; the options for getting the toothpaste back in the tube are not so good
# [23:09] * DanC_ sees the list of a dozen or so test project pointers above.
# [23:09] <DanC_> maybe wget is our friend.
# [23:10] <gsnedders> are there any distributed SCMs that allow you to pull just a single folder?
# [23:10] <DanC_> I think hg is growing that feature; I'm not sure how mature it is
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# [23:15] <gsnedders> git has something similar, IIRC
# [23:16] * Quits: mauro (mauro@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [23:16] <DanC_> wiki suggests it's not mature; http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/PartialClone
# [23:17] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith$ sleep 3600
# [23:17] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
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# [23:27] <hsivonen> anne: where's the html5lib stuff happening?
# [23:28] <hsivonen> moreover, what's happening with dinner?
# [23:29] <jgraham_> hsivonen, In room B
# [23:29] <jgraham_> and I don't know, respectively
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# [23:56] <smedero> mjs: are you looking for chris wilson, hsivonen, etc?
# [23:56] <smedero> mjs: that group just left for dinner a minute or so ago.
# [23:57] <mjs> smedero: I'm waiting around for Hixie and whoever else can be rustled up at this point
# [23:57] <mjs> smedero: do not expect to be able to find them now
# [23:57] <smedero> ahh, ok. just double checking :)
# [23:57] <smedero> hixie was just here
# [23:57] <smedero> i don't think he left with that group
# [23:57] <mjs> Hixie went up to his room, I'm waiting for him in the lobby
# [23:57] <smedero> ahh, ok
# [23:57] <smedero> heh
# [23:58] <smedero> mike smith mentioned to me a group was meeting up in the lobby to head out to dinner, so I though i'd tag along if there is space.
# [23:58] <smedero> but it is a little unclear which 'group' that is. :/
# [23:59] <mjs> smedero: might be the same one I am in, which I think is kind of vague at this point
# Session Close: Sat Nov 10 00:00:00 2007

The end :)