/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Nov 10 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:01] * mjs 's caffeine level is a bit low
  4. # [00:04] * smedero has not enjoyed the overheated, stale coffee at the hotel
  5. # [00:05] <mjs> but... but... they said they proudly brew it!
  6. # [00:05] * smedero can't _really_ complain given the price though
  7. # [00:06] <mjs> it says so right on the cup
  8. # [00:06] <smedero> heh
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  16. # [00:15] <mjs> Hixie, Mike Smith and I are gonna go to donner, anyone else who would like to tag along is welcome
  17. # [00:15] <mjs> we are in the lobby
  18. # [00:15] <mjs> you have approx 5 minutes to decide to join us before we get bored
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  70. # [07:08] <mjs> hello everyone
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  99. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to move Planet HTML5 off of people.w3.org and onto www.w3.org
  100. # [14:50] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  101. # [14:50] * RRSAgent records action 23
  102. # [14:50] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-7 - Move Planet HTML5 off of people.w3.org and onto www.w3.org [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-17].
  103. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> Present: Travis, ChrisWilson, DanC, KazuhitoKidachi, MasatakaYakura, Joshue, SeanMedero, JamesGraham
  104. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
  105. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  106. # [14:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  107. # [14:52] * oedipus says good morning all
  108. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> oedipus - mornin'
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  111. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> Chair: ChrisWilson, DanC
  112. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> Meeting: November 2007 HTML WG meeting, final day
  113. # [14:54] <mjs> morning, folks
  114. # [14:54] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@66.252.19.122)
  115. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
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  117. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> mjs - ohayou gozaimasu
  118. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> Present+ fantasai
  119. # [14:55] <mjs> hey MikeSmith
  120. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> mjs - you be down here for Aria discussion or coming later?
  121. # [14:56] * oedipus is here for aria discussion...
  122. # [14:56] <mjs> MikeSmith: I will be heading over shortly, but I'll miss at least the start of ARIA
  123. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> k
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  127. # [14:58] * Chris is now known as ChrisWilson
  128. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> Present+ RichSchwerdtfeger
  129. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> Present+ PatrickIon
  130. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> Zakim, status?
  131. # [14:59] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
  132. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> [waiting for a few more people to role in]
  133. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> s/role in/rooooollll in/
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  136. # [15:02] <DanC_lap> Zakim, agenda?
  137. # [15:02] <Zakim> I see 15 items remaining on the agenda:
  138. # [15:02] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  139. # [15:02] <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
  140. # [15:02] <Zakim> 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
  141. # [15:02] <Zakim> 9. data tables [ben]
  142. # [15:02] <Zakim> 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
  143. # [15:02] <Zakim> 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
  144. # [15:02] <Zakim> 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
  145. # [15:02] <Zakim> 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
  146. # [15:02] <Zakim> 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
  147. # [15:02] <Zakim> 19. offline support [from mjs via Hixie]
  148. # [15:02] <Zakim> 20. media elements [from mjs via Hixie]
  149. # [15:02] <Zakim> 21. HTML 5 for authors [from karl via Hixie]
  150. # [15:02] <Zakim> 22. aria session [from no lead yet via Hixie]
  151. # [15:02] <Zakim> 23. why are there IMG, VIDEO, EMBED and AUDIO but no TEXT? (Text is one of the most often asked extension for CSS, but it really belongs in HTML, not CSS.) [from Bert]
  152. # [15:02] <Zakim> 24. we should discuss licensing, hosting, making tests, as opposed to EARL [from anne via olivier]
  153. # [15:02] <DanC_lap> Zakim, clear agenda
  154. # [15:02] <Zakim> agenda cleared
  155. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> Present+ MichaelCooper
  156. # [15:02] <DanC_lap> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  157. # [15:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html DanC_lap
  158. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> Present+ SteveFaulkner
  159. # [15:02] * mjs wonders what 23 was supposed to be about
  160. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> mjs - ask Bert ;)
  161. # [15:03] <DanC_lap> I suppose TEXT is called <iframe />
  162. # [15:03] <mjs> from his description it's hard to tell
  163. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> yep
  164. # [15:04] <oedipus> well, for one it follows the logic of the other media-specific elements ad absurdam
  165. # [15:05] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192)
  166. # [15:06] * Lachy waves
  167. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> [we hoping to get ChrisL and schepers in ... Michael Cooper going to look for Chris]
  168. # [15:06] * MikeSmith waves to Lachy
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  170. # [15:07] <anne> Hixie, yt?
  171. # [15:07] <DanC_lap> Topic: ARIA in HTML5
  172. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> [with begin with intro from Rich on ARIA]
  173. # [15:07] * Joins: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.44.128)
  174. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> Hi Nick
  175. # [15:08] <DanC_lap> Zakim, remind us in 45 minutes that we planned to finish talking about ARIA after an hour
  176. # [15:08] <Zakim> ok, DanC_lap
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  180. # [15:08] * Lachy thought ARIA was discussed 2 days ago. why again?
  181. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikkoHonkala
  182. # [15:08] * oedipus because other WGs have been working on the issue...
  183. # [15:08] * oedipus says, as well, the more we discuss, the closer we come to consensus, no?
  184. # [15:08] * Lachy will be back later when there's a more interesting topic
  185. # [15:09] <anne> <div aria=checkbox aria-checked=true>
  186. # [15:09] <anne> (would be my proposal)
  187. # [15:09] <Rich> <div role="wairole:checkbox" aria-checked="true">
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  189. # [15:10] <Rich> <div role="wairole:checkbox" aria:checked="true">
  190. # [15:10] <anne> wairole: needs to be declared somewhere for Rich example to work (in theory)
  191. # [15:10] <anne> same for aria:
  192. # [15:10] * DanC_lap wishes for an image of the corresponding user experience; a screenshot or web page pointer
  193. # [15:10] <smedero> Issue Tracker URL: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
  194. # [15:10] * anne notes that aria doesn't affect rendering
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  197. # [15:12] <anne> http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal has a proposal
  198. # [15:12] * MikeSmith encourages those on IRC to feel free to minute/scribe/note interesting bits on this channel
  199. # [15:12] <anne> it's not up to date with s/role/aria though...
  200. # [15:12] <anne> but that should be easy if we decide to do that
  201. # [15:13] <ChrisWilson> I think that is an intersting discussion for today, imho, anne.
  202. # [15:14] * MikeSmith apologizes to those on IRC only who are wanting to follow the session; we don't have any volunteer to scribe this session...
  203. # [15:14] * oedipus asks DanC if he is looking for something like: http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/Research/ARIA/TestTests or http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/QA/Reference2Results1 (results with screenshot)
  204. # [15:14] * oedipus thanks MikeSmith and will follow along and try not to get in the way...
  205. # [15:15] * anne thought it said checbox too
  206. # [15:15] * anne is clearly awake
  207. # [15:15] * krijnh does /me too
  208. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> Present+ JonathanWatt
  209. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> q?
  210. # [15:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  211. # [15:17] <DanC_lap> ACTION ChrisW: follow up on aria-hidden="true" support
  212. # [15:17] * RRSAgent records action 24
  213. # [15:17] <fantasai> Anne: Opera has an editor for the aria stuff, Simon Pieters
  214. # [15:17] * MikeSmith reminds PIon and others on IRC that they can use q+ to get on queue
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  217. # [15:20] <DanC_lap> ACTION Patrick_Ion: follow up on the idea that aria fits in mathml too (test cases/examples would be an ideal outcome)
  218. # [15:20] * RRSAgent records action 25
  219. # [15:20] <MichaelC> q+ to say we may want to communicate cross-W3C to review implications on other host languages
  220. # [15:20] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
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  222. # [15:20] * DanC_lap wonders why trackbot-ng isn't complaining about action owner names. oh well.
  223. # [15:21] <DanC_lap> ack mi
  224. # [15:21] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say we may want to communicate cross-W3C to review implications on other host languages
  225. # [15:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  226. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> Present+ ScottVesey
  227. # [15:23] * oedipus notes that an SVG example or 2 are in the works for ARIA
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  229. # [15:24] <anne> <div aria=checkbox aria-checked=true>
  230. # [15:24] <DanC_lap> tx
  231. # [15:24] <DanC_lap> ACTION DanC: make sure the emacs buffer with ARIA choices gets into the record
  232. # [15:24] * RRSAgent records action 26
  233. # [15:24] <Rich> <div role="wairole:checkbox">
  234. # [15:24] <myakura> the latest xhtml role module draft http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xhtml-role-20071004/
  235. # [15:25] <anne> <div role=checkbox> was also proposed btw
  236. # [15:25] * ChrisWilson notes that the consensus of those present is that the aria-* pattern for states and patterns is acceptable.
  237. # [15:25] * anne isn't sure why wairole: is needed here
  238. # [15:26] <oedipus> myakura, the latest XHTML2 discussions on role are archived at: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html#item01
  239. # [15:26] <ChrisWilson> anne - it's an extensibility marker, Rich is getting to that.
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  241. # [15:26] <Rich> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role
  242. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> Present+ Molly
  243. # [15:27] <DanC_lap> W3C Working Draft 19 October 2007
  244. # [15:27] * Parts: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.144)
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  246. # [15:27] <mjs> morning, folks
  247. # [15:27] <ChrisWilson> g'morning maciej
  248. # [15:27] <mjs> hey ChrisWilson
  249. # [15:28] <MichaelC> action: cooper to discuss UML tools with DanC
  250. # [15:28] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  251. # [15:28] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - cooper
  252. # [15:28] * RRSAgent records action 27
  253. # [15:28] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  254. # [15:29] <ChrisWilson> is it freezing cold in this room, or is it just me?
  255. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson - freezing
  256. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> Present+ KevinLawver
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  258. # [15:31] * myakura noticed that the current draft dropped some roles like wairole:breadcrums which i wondered why it exists
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  260. # [15:31] * DanC_lap q?
  261. # [15:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  262. # [15:31] <DanC_lap> RS: 1. do we bring xhtml role attribute into HTML 5?
  263. # [15:32] <DanC_lap> ... 2. have an aria attribute, e.g. ...
  264. # [15:32] <Rich> <div aria="checkbox">
  265. # [15:32] * MikeSmith goes to ask hotel people to turn up the heat in here a few dozen degrees
  266. # [15:32] <myakura> @aria for roles, @aria-props for states/properties?
  267. # [15:33] <MichaelC> myakura, yes
  268. # [15:33] * Quits: Dennis (forty4@63.119.44.226) (Ping timeout)
  269. # [15:33] * DanC_lap is trying to keep track of who's following, but isn't really following the technical stuff himself
  270. # [15:34] <DanC_lap> ACTION Mike: integrate the offline notes into the record
  271. # [15:34] * RRSAgent records action 28
  272. # [15:34] <ChrisWilson> PF group wants XHTML Role module
  273. # [15:34] <anne> The reason for using aria= is that it's consistent with the properties and that role= is already overloaded as general accessibility mechanism
  274. # [15:34] <ChrisWilson> Rich: role is widely used.
  275. # [15:34] <anne> A transition path from role= to aria= is pretty trivial
  276. # [15:34] * MikeSmith returns with hot tea after alerting hotel staff to freeziness situation
  277. # [15:35] <oedipus> XHTML Role module makes ARIA possible -- it is an extension built in accordance with the Role Module's extensibility mechanism
  278. # [15:35] <ChrisWilson> Rich: we don't think role is just for accessibility - we think it's a general semantic declaration
  279. # [15:35] <MichaelC> q+
  280. # [15:35] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  281. # [15:35] <oedipus> rich++
  282. # [15:36] <ChrisWilson> thanks, Mike
  283. # [15:36] <ChrisWilson> er, MikeSmith
  284. # [15:36] <ChrisWilson> Danc_lap: who's maintaining the test suite
  285. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> [Joshue O'Connor is taking good notes and will e-mail them to me after the session]
  286. # [15:36] * Quits: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.144) (Quit: mjs)
  287. # [15:37] <anne> http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/ has tests for the http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal proposal
  288. # [15:38] <DanC_lap> (ah... this is familiar)-
  289. # [15:38] <MichaelC> ack me
  290. # [15:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  291. # [15:38] <DanC_lap> role/ 14-Oct-2007 08:16 -
  292. # [15:39] <MichaelC> action: MichaelC to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute
  293. # [15:39] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  294. # [15:39] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - MichaelC
  295. # [15:39] * RRSAgent records action 29
  296. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> Present+ Maciej
  297. # [15:40] <ChrisWilson> anne: I would think aria (vs role) would restrict the types to just widgets (or things that make sense for accessibility)
  298. # [15:40] * DanC_lap checks the clock... 40 min into a 60 min session
  299. # [15:41] * MikeSmith will add MichaelC to HTMLWG tracker right now so that we can assign actions to him ...
  300. # [15:41] * MichaelC :)
  301. # [15:41] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.144)
  302. # [15:41] <DanC_lap> I gather Aaron Leventhal and Jon Gunderson do most of the test maintenance
  303. # [15:41] <ChrisWilson> Rich: middleware is using the role attrib for device adaptation
  304. # [15:41] <anne> 1. Consistency with aria-. 2. No clashing with XHTML2
  305. # [15:42] <anne> are my arguments for aria=
  306. # [15:42] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.153)
  307. # [15:42] <ChrisWilson> rich: if I have to deal with an aria attribute now, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
  308. # [15:42] <oedipus> danC, there is a table of supported roles at http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications#Landmark_Roles_from_XHTML_role_attribute_module
  309. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
  310. # [15:42] <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
  311. # [15:42] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
  312. # [15:42] * trackbot-ng found 14 users
  313. # [15:42] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  314. # [15:42] <ChrisWilson> anne, what's the clash? I think if we point to the XHTML Role attribute, it's defined the same?
  315. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
  316. # [15:42] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 14 users: Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Michael(tm), Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
  317. # [15:42] <DanC_lap> "Some but not all of this demonstration will be showing content
  318. # [15:42] <DanC_lap> from our draft test suite." -- Al G. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0265.html
  319. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> ACTION: MichaelC to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute
  320. # [15:43] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  321. # [15:43] * RRSAgent records action 30
  322. # [15:43] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-8 - Discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute [on Michael Cooper - due 2007-11-17].
  323. # [15:43] <oedipus> danC: there is also the Best Practices QA at: http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests (maintained at that location so could be collaboratively maintained, moinmoin doesn't allow hyperlinks in DT
  324. # [15:43] <DanC_lap> values of what, oedipus ? you might pick somebody else to be your proxy; my attention is mostly used up
  325. # [15:44] <oedipus> danC, just trying to point you to testing materials and data
  326. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> Present+ Schepers
  327. # [15:44] <DanC_lap> so I can look at it later? ok. thanks.
  328. # [15:44] <oedipus> precisely, np
  329. # [15:44] * oedipus just wanted to get as much reference material into the notes for follow-up
  330. # [15:45] * DanC_lap waves to molly
  331. # [15:45] <molly> waves back at DanC and wonders where TBL's guitar is...
  332. # [15:45] <MichaelC> action: MichaelC to discuss UML tools with DanC
  333. # [15:45] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  334. # [15:45] * RRSAgent records action 31
  335. # [15:45] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-9 - Discuss UML tools with DanC [on Michael Cooper - due 2007-11-17].
  336. # [15:45] * DanC_lap senses this could usefully go for more than 15 more minutes; wonders which way to steer
  337. # [15:46] <DanC_lap> tbl took his guitar home after the gig
  338. # [15:46] * Joins: kenny (kenny.joha@203.28.85.50)
  339. # [15:46] * DanC_lap hunts for the relevant issue in the issues list...
  340. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> Present+ HenriSivonen
  341. # [15:47] * Joins: Dennis (forty4@63.119.44.226)
  342. # [15:47] * DanC_lap reminds everyone to breathe before talking
  343. # [15:48] * Parts: kenny (kenny.joha@203.28.85.50)
  344. # [15:50] <DanC_lap> Zakim, people are starting to talk over each other. stand by to moderate, please.
  345. # [15:50] <Zakim> I don't understand you, DanC_lap
  346. # [15:50] * Quits: KevinLawver (kplawver@63.119.44.146) (Quit: KevinLawver)
  347. # [15:50] <hsivonen> q+
  348. # [15:50] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  349. # [15:50] * DanC_lap thanks hsivonen
  350. # [15:51] * Joins: KevinLawver (kplawver@64.236.128.27)
  351. # [15:51] <DanC_lap> q+ doug
  352. # [15:51] * Zakim sees hsivonen, doug on the speaker queue
  353. # [15:52] <DanC_lap> ack doug
  354. # [15:52] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  355. # [15:52] <ChrisWilson> Present+ Hixie
  356. # [15:52] <hsivonen> Present+ Hixie
  357. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> Present+ Hixie
  358. # [15:52] <ChrisWilson> heheh. I win!
  359. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> :)
  360. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  361. # [15:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  362. # [15:53] <Zakim> DanC_lap, you asked to be reminded at this time that we planned to finish talking about ARIA after an hour
  363. # [15:53] <MichaelC> q+ Travis
  364. # [15:53] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Travis on the speaker queue
  365. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> ack Travis
  366. # [15:53] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  367. # [15:53] <DanC_lap> ack trackbot-ng
  368. # [15:53] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  369. # [15:53] <DanC_lap> ack trackbot-ng
  370. # [15:53] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  371. # [15:53] <DanC_lap> phspadhf
  372. # [15:53] * smedero wonders what would happen if a room had three hixies in it
  373. # [15:53] <ChrisWilson> smedero, don't cross the streams
  374. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> Chair: DanC, ChrisWilson
  375. # [15:54] * DanC_lap finds the XSD joke kinda cute, but not all that helpful
  376. # [15:54] * Quits: Steven (Steven_@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  377. # [15:55] <DanC_lap> q+ to ask for an example
  378. # [15:55] * Zakim sees hsivonen, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  379. # [15:55] <DanC_lap> ack hsivonen
  380. # [15:55] * Zakim sees DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  381. # [15:55] <Rich> q+
  382. # [15:55] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, Rich on the speaker queue
  383. # [15:55] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.44.105) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  384. # [15:55] <ChrisWilson> q+ to describe how a taxonomy helps turn content into spoken words
  385. # [15:55] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, Rich, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  386. # [15:55] * anne hopes we're not going to seriously discuss XML Schema
  387. # [15:55] * ChrisWilson hopes so too.
  388. # [15:55] * DanC_lap is happy to aim toward an example instead
  389. # [15:56] * DanC_lap wishes for a URL of a relevant example
  390. # [15:56] <fantasai> Hsivonen points out that XML Schema doesn't provide semantics, it provides a pattern to validate against
  391. # [15:56] * DanC_lap is trying to get hsivonen to help us find the relevant part of the demo
  392. # [15:56] * oedipus asks DanC what kind of example is he looking for? i may be able to provide a pointer for later reference
  393. # [15:57] <Rich> q?
  394. # [15:57] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, Rich, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  395. # [15:57] * DanC_lap yields
  396. # [15:57] <DanC_lap> q-
  397. # [15:57] * Zakim sees Rich, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  398. # [15:57] <Rich> q+ Doug
  399. # [15:57] * Zakim sees Rich, ChrisWilson, Doug on the speaker queue
  400. # [15:57] <fantasai> Hsivonen explains that presenting these things requires UI strings, which the schema isn't providing
  401. # [15:57] <Rich> q?
  402. # [15:57] * Zakim sees Rich, ChrisWilson, Doug on the speaker queue
  403. # [15:57] <fantasai> hsivonen: URIs on their own don't give you UI. You have to get the UI from somewhere.
  404. # [15:58] <fantasai> hsivonen: Either the client embodies the UI visually or orally, or it has to build one up somehow.
  405. # [15:58] * anne is reminded of http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/04/html-red-pill
  406. # [15:58] <fantasai> hsivonen: and URIs don't provide the information necessary to build the UI
  407. # [15:58] * oedipus thanks fantasai and joshue for minuting
  408. # [15:58] <fantasai> hsivonen: They don't provide e.g. localized auditory data
  409. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to integrate into the Nov. 2007 meeting record the notes that Joshue took during the 2007-11-10 ARIA discussion
  410. # [15:58] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  411. # [15:58] * RRSAgent records action 32
  412. # [15:58] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-10 - Integrate into the Nov. 2007 meeting record the notes that Joshue took during the 2007-11-10 ARIA discussion [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-17].
  413. # [15:58] * DanC_lap thanks fantasai for helping me grok
  414. # [15:59] <fantasai> hsivonen: Dereferencing the UI won't be giving all the localizations. Instead it is more reasonable to expect localized screen readers to give a localized UI for the widget
  415. # [15:59] <hsivonen> Dereferencing the URI...
  416. # [16:00] <fantasai> Rich asserts that we are limiting ourselves and roles will be valuable in the future.
  417. # [16:00] <oedipus> rich+++
  418. # [16:00] <DanC_lap> (what's the group he meets with?)
  419. # [16:00] <fantasai> Rich: I've had monthly meetings with vendors, and we work with X, Y, and Linux software
  420. # [16:00] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.44.105)
  421. # [16:00] <ChrisWilson> Rich has regular meetings with Freedom Scientific, who own ~80% of the AT market, and others.
  422. # [16:00] * DanC_lap wants the vendor name for the public record, unless Rich says otherwise
  423. # [16:00] <anne> Freedom Scientific would be X
  424. # [16:01] <DanC_lap> tx, cW
  425. # [16:01] * oedipus notes that GW-Micro (Window-Eyes) would be another, as would AISquared (ZoomText screen magnifier)
  426. # [16:01] <fantasai> Rich: The vehicle that is currently provided in the role attribute allows you to separate out .. taxonomies.
  427. # [16:01] <ChrisWilson> q?
  428. # [16:01] * Zakim sees Rich, ChrisWilson, Doug on the speaker queue
  429. # [16:01] * DanC_lap notes mjs cut him off
  430. # [16:01] <MichaelC> note that 80% of the market is of the North American market; we should reach out to AT vendors internationally as well
  431. # [16:02] * DanC_lap q?
  432. # [16:02] * Zakim sees Rich, ChrisWilson, Doug on the speaker queue
  433. # [16:02] * DanC_lap notes Rich has the floor
  434. # [16:02] <fantasai> Maciej: I'm not willing to take on faith that role attributes and taxonomies will result in a usable UI
  435. # [16:02] <hsivonen> q+
  436. # [16:02] * Zakim sees Rich, ChrisWilson, Doug, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  437. # [16:02] <Rich> q?
  438. # [16:02] * Zakim sees Rich, ChrisWilson, Doug, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  439. # [16:02] <fantasai> Maciej: I want to see a concrete example.
  440. # [16:02] <Rich> ack Rich
  441. # [16:02] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Doug, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  442. # [16:02] <DanC_lap> ack Rich
  443. # [16:02] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Doug, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  444. # [16:02] <DanC_lap> ack ChrisWilson
  445. # [16:02] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to describe how a taxonomy helps turn content into spoken words
  446. # [16:02] * Zakim sees Doug, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  447. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> some comments from Chris Lilley:
  448. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> [[
  449. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> In terms of the SVG position, SVG can use the aria attributes as currently specified (ie, namespaced) with no problem and with no change to the specification at all. The SVG spec already covers what to do with unknown qualified attributes on SVG elements.
  450. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> It could also, as a second-best option, use them un-namespaced if they were added to the svg specification.
  451. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> We do have a problem with the xhtml modularisation requirements (need to use their dtd structure etc which seems unnecessary and largely orthogonal to what content or viewers/browsers do) but I have an action to talk to Steven about that and report back to WAI PF.
  452. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> ]]
  453. # [16:03] <jgraham_> We're being asked to accept a lot of complexity now on the assertion that there may be a problem to solve in the future
  454. # [16:03] <PIon> Use case descriptions, or pointers to them, would be rather helpful.
  455. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> Present+ Bert
  456. # [16:03] * DanC_lap puzzles over jgraham's point... note to self to noodle later
  457. # [16:03] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.119.44.78)
  458. # [16:04] * oedipus wonders whether or not jgraham acknowledges that there are problems to be solved today, tommorrow, and the future...
  459. # [16:04] <Rich> q+ Rich
  460. # [16:04] * Zakim sees Doug, hsivonen, Rich on the speaker queue
  461. # [16:04] <mjs> q+
  462. # [16:04] * Zakim sees Doug, hsivonen, Rich, mjs on the speaker queue
  463. # [16:04] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.218.218) (Ping timeout)
  464. # [16:04] <DanC_lap> (I note the scheduled time is up, and I'm hearing a requirements discussion, which is the next thing... break, anyone, or just carry on ?)
  465. # [16:04] <DanC_lap> (... with a new Topic: for the record?)
  466. # [16:04] <mjs> I would like a break at some point
  467. # [16:04] <Rich> q?
  468. # [16:04] * Zakim sees Doug, hsivonen, Rich, mjs on the speaker queue
  469. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> Present+ DavidBaron
  470. # [16:04] <fantasai> Anne: The role attribute is overloaded. We'd be using it for ARIA accessibility, but other groups will want to use it for other things, e.g. microformats.
  471. # [16:04] <mjs> but I am not sure this topic is usefully over
  472. # [16:04] <DanC_lap> ack doug
  473. # [16:04] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Rich, mjs on the speaker queue
  474. # [16:05] <DanC_lap> Zakim, close the queue
  475. # [16:05] <Zakim> ok, DanC_lap, the speaker queue is closed
  476. # [16:05] <fantasai> Anne: How do we know when to use the low-level accessibility APIs and when to just leave the strings in the document?
  477. # [16:05] <DanC_lap> (continue for 30 more minutes on this topic? 15? 20?)
  478. # [16:05] <ChrisWilson> DanC_lap, I think we should continue for no more than 15, and take a break.
  479. # [16:06] <DanC_lap> ack hsivonen
  480. # [16:06] * Zakim sees Rich, mjs on the speaker queue
  481. # [16:06] <DanC_lap> oops
  482. # [16:06] <Rich> q?
  483. # [16:06] * Zakim sees Rich, mjs on the speaker queue
  484. # [16:06] <mjs> q-
  485. # [16:06] * Zakim sees Rich on the speaker queue
  486. # [16:06] <ChrisWilson> Our other option is to break right now and come back for 20+ minutes.
  487. # [16:06] <DanC_lap> Zakim, remind us in 15 minutes to take a break
  488. # [16:06] <Zakim> ok, DanC_lap
  489. # [16:06] <anne> So I don't want to implement technology X and Y based on the same attribute
  490. # [16:06] <Rich> q?
  491. # [16:06] * Zakim sees Rich on the speaker queue
  492. # [16:07] <anne> We tried that for a single element and it failed horribly already
  493. # [16:07] * MikeSmith would suggest that we try to wrap this up in 15 minutes because we have a published agenda that said we would start the charter discussion at 10am and there are people who have arrived specifically for that discussion
  494. # [16:07] * oedipus notes that implementor buy-in is documented at: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ#Who_supports_ARIA.3F
  495. # [16:07] <anne> <object>
  496. # [16:07] <anne> <i> <object>
  497. # [16:07] * fantasai wants Doug to minute a summary of his points, because I couldn't follow well enough to do so
  498. # [16:07] <ChrisWilson> zakim, open the q
  499. # [16:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'open the q', ChrisWilson
  500. # [16:07] <Rich> q?
  501. # [16:07] * Zakim sees Rich on the speaker queue
  502. # [16:07] <ChrisWilson> zakim, open q
  503. # [16:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'open q', ChrisWilson
  504. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, open the queue
  505. # [16:07] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith, the speaker queue is open
  506. # [16:08] <ChrisWilson> oh sure, make me spell. :)
  507. # [16:08] <fantasai> Hsivonen: An example of ... taxonomy ... is the type attribute on <input>
  508. # [16:08] * Quits: tantek (tantek@70.13.216.94) (Quit: tantek)
  509. # [16:08] <fantasai> Hsivonen: The way the UA generates UI isn't by generating anything, but instead it has code that knows already about these types
  510. # [16:09] <fantasai> DanC: Did you hear the point that the accessibility UIs was created by picking the brains of 80% of the accessibility vendors?
  511. # [16:09] * oedipus or role could add semantic info to OBJECT -- <object role="audio" type="application/x-shockwave-flash">
  512. # [16:10] <Rich> DS: considering that authors will use this in unexpected ways, is it realistic to limit the possible values? it might be better to design it to be more flexible anticipating that use?
  513. # [16:10] <fantasai> DanC: The way you dereference the URIs is that you write code, like the code hsivonen was saying. You don't dereference it and build something on the fly.
  514. # [16:10] <fantasai> Anne: So why not just use a simple string?
  515. # [16:10] <mjs> q+
  516. # [16:10] * Zakim sees Rich, mjs on the speaker queue
  517. # [16:10] <fantasai> Anne: The role attribute has a URI-based syntax
  518. # [16:11] <anne> <div xmlns:wairole="..." role="wairole:something">
  519. # [16:11] <anne> versus <div aria="something">
  520. # [16:12] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I don't see how URI-based syntax helps in that case: the UA still has to recognize the token and have already built UI to use it
  521. # [16:13] * Quits: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.153) (Ping timeout)
  522. # [16:13] <fantasai> DanC points to Anne's examples.
  523. # [16:13] <mjs> q-
  524. # [16:13] * Zakim sees Rich on the speaker queue
  525. # [16:13] <fantasai> DanC: So here we have another example of ugly namespaces getting in the way.
  526. # [16:13] * mjs notes that so far every time he's tried to use the speaker queue he has forgotten his point before the queue advanced
  527. # [16:13] <Rich> ACTION: DanC to show how <div aria="something"> works with URI based extensibility
  528. # [16:13] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  529. # [16:13] * RRSAgent records action 33
  530. # [16:13] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-11 - Show how <div aria=\"something\"> works with URI based extensibility [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-17].
  531. # [16:13] <fantasai> DanC: If we map aria="something" to the wiarole stuff, we have the same information
  532. # [16:13] <Hixie> mjs: you can tell zakim your point, as in "q+ to say something"
  533. # [16:13] <ChrisWilson> ack rich
  534. # [16:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  535. # [16:14] * oedipus mjs, that's called an "occupational hazard"
  536. # [16:14] <mjs> q+
  537. # [16:14] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  538. # [16:14] <mjs> q-
  539. # [16:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  540. # [16:15] <fantasai> break
  541. # [16:15] * oedipus thanks fantasai and joshue
  542. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> Present+ JustinThorp
  543. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  544. # [16:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  545. # [16:19] <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
  546. # [16:19] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)21:03Z has not yet started, matt
  547. # [16:19] <Zakim> On IRC I see dbaron, justin, KevinLawver, Dennis, mjs, molly, shepazu, jwatt, matt, mikko_honkala, MichaelC, PIon, anne, DanC_lap, ChrisWilson, Rich, smedero, fantasai, jgraham_,
  548. # [16:19] <Zakim> ... myakura, gavin, kazuhito, MikeSmith, tH, drry, ROBOd, Shunsuke, Lachy__, jmb, paullewis, hasather, gorm, Lachy, xover, anthony, Bert, Philip, Zakim, oedipus, Hixie, heycam,
  549. # [16:19] <Zakim> ... laplink, bogi, gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent
  550. # [16:19] * Quits: jwatt (roslea@12.6.206.9) (Ping timeout)
  551. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> Present+ BenMillard
  552. # [16:20] * matt sorry, thought asking about the phone would not result in the dump of IRC folks as well... /me pictures a sea of bouncing docks now...
  553. # [16:21] * Quits: Rich (schwer@63.119.44.95) (Quit: Rich)
  554. # [16:21] <Zakim> DanC_lap, you asked to be reminded at this time to take a break
  555. # [16:27] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  556. # [16:27] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  557. # [16:30] * Quits: tH (Rob@83.100.132.119) (Ping timeout)
  558. # [16:31] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.44.105) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  559. # [16:32] * oedipus thanks smedero for adding to ISSUE 14 of HTML WG Issue Tracker live from the meeting
  560. # [16:32] <anne> <ping />
  561. # [16:32] <anne> interesting
  562. # [16:33] <ChrisWilson> ...I think Dan means <a href="..." ping="...">.
  563. # [16:33] <ChrisWilson> and pingref? Haven't re-read that section thoroughly lately
  564. # [16:34] * Joins: ed_ (ed@63.119.45.165)
  565. # [16:34] <smedero> oedipus: no problem.
  566. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest we need a scribe
  567. # [16:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  568. # [16:37] * Joins: plinss (peter.lins@15.243.169.69)
  569. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> Present+ PeterLinss
  570. # [16:38] <anne> http://www.whatwg.org/html5
  571. # [16:38] <jgraham_> full version: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
  572. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> ACTION: DanC to make sure the alternate URL for the spec is in the Nov. 2007 meeting record
  573. # [16:39] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  574. # [16:39] * RRSAgent records action 34
  575. # [16:39] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-12 - Make sure the alternate URL for the spec is in the Nov. 2007 meeting record [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-17].
  576. # [16:39] <jgraham_> other multipage link: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/
  577. # [16:40] * Joins: glazou (daniel@63.119.45.76)
  578. # [16:40] <glazou> Hixie: ping
  579. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> Present+ Chaals
  580. # [16:40] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.153)
  581. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: chaals
  582. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> Scribe: Chaals
  583. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  584. # [16:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  585. # [16:41] <chaals> Topic: huh?
  586. # [16:41] <chaals> s/huh?/scope and schedule/
  587. # [16:41] <Hixie> glazou: pong
  588. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> Present+ DanielGlazman
  589. # [16:41] <anne> Topic: rel= ownership
  590. # [16:41] <chaals> Present+ chaals
  591. # [16:42] * Joins: jwatt_ (roslea@12.6.206.9)
  592. # [16:42] * jwatt_ is now known as jwatt
  593. # [16:42] <chaals> DC: We had Extensibility discussion...
  594. # [16:42] <Lachy> Present+ LachlanHunt_IRC_only
  595. # [16:42] <chaals> IH: HTML5 currently has wiki link to define new rel values, plus some from HTML4
  596. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> q?
  597. # [16:43] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  598. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> q-
  599. # [16:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  600. # [16:43] <chaals> DC: Seems the community is happy with this. Question is which wiki...
  601. # [16:43] <chaals> ... if rel value wiki was microformats.org I could write an official liaison
  602. # [16:43] <chaals> AvK: We would like something that validators could query etc - some API
  603. # [16:43] <chaals> DC: agree
  604. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> Present+ EricDahlström
  605. # [16:44] * ChrisWilson thinks anne just said he wants something better than just a special little place in the microformats wiki
  606. # [16:44] <chaals> s/Eric/Erik/
  607. # [16:44] * ChrisWilson agrees
  608. # [16:44] * KevinLawver still isn't clear why we need a defined set of rel values.
  609. # [16:44] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  610. # [16:44] * MikeSmith notes to fantasai that chaals is scribing but hope you might be able to handle part of scribing depending on how long this discussion lasts
  611. # [16:45] <ChrisWilson> kevinLawver, to test/validate/know what we need to support.
  612. # [16:45] <anne> Basically a Web service where you can easily add new values, revise existing values (from proposal to approved, etc., updating spec pointers), and also a way to get all values in some easy parsable format
  613. # [16:45] <chaals> ... dealing with microformats.org is easier than eg IANA
  614. # [16:45] <KevinLawver> Are we then going to set a defined set of allowed classes and id's as well?
  615. # [16:45] <chaals> CW: Think we need something better than just a wiki
  616. # [16:45] <fantasai> Maciej: I think microformats.org hosting the registry is fine, don't mind either way
  617. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> Present+ MarcosCaceres
  618. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  619. # [16:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  620. # [16:45] <chaals> MH: You want soething to bring µformats committee closer to W3C
  621. # [16:46] <anne> KevinLawver, classes and IDs are not "global" I think
  622. # [16:46] <chaals> DC: Right now they are peers, so bringing them closer would be good.
  623. # [16:46] <fantasai> DanC: We can say that microformats.org's process is reasonable and have the W3C officially endorse microformats.org
  624. # [16:46] <ChrisWilson> classes and ids are knowingly unbounded.
  625. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> present- Chaals
  626. # [16:46] <ChrisWilson> rel is bounded by interoperability.
  627. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  628. # [16:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  629. # [16:46] <MichaelC> q+ to say a subset of microformat approaches creates accessibility problems; W3C endorsement would need resolution of those issues
  630. # [16:46] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  631. # [16:46] <ChrisWilson> (today, that is)
  632. # [16:46] <fantasai> Molly: If you're saying they have to come in as members, that's a problem.
  633. # [16:46] <chaals> MH: If they had to come in as members that would be a problem...
  634. # [16:46] <fantasai> DanC: That's not what I meant.
  635. # [16:46] <gsnedders> Present+ GeoffreySneddon_IRC_Only
  636. # [16:47] <chaals> scribe: fantasai
  637. # [16:47] <ChrisWilson> q?
  638. # [16:47] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  639. # [16:47] <fantasai> DanC: They have their own process
  640. # [16:47] <chaals> scribeNick: fantasai
  641. # [16:47] * Quits: jwatt (roslea@12.6.206.9) (Ping timeout)
  642. # [16:47] <fantasai> DanC: We can write it up and explain it to the W3C hand set up an official liaison etc
  643. # [16:47] <fantasai> Molly: What does Tantek think?
  644. # [16:47] <fantasai> DanC: Haven't asked him.
  645. # [16:47] * Joins: jwatt_ (roslea@12.6.206.9)
  646. # [16:47] * jwatt_ is now known as jwatt
  647. # [16:47] <fantasai> Molly: My experience is that there's a lot of twisting of semantics going on there, it's distressing.
  648. # [16:48] <gsnedders> The issue with moving µformats closer to the W3C is that a lot of the process there is all based around moving quickly — something that is not done here due to burorcarsy
  649. # [16:48] <fantasai> Molly: So one of the things we're doing for best practices is to encourage people not to touch the document too much, to keep the markup pristine.
  650. # [16:48] <gsnedders> s/The issue/Another issue/
  651. # [16:48] <fantasai> Molly: We don't want to go back and touch those documents, especially on large sites.
  652. # [16:48] <fantasai> Molly: With Microformats you're adding a lot of stuff that has to be tracked and formatted.
  653. # [16:48] <fantasai> Molly: And there's not a lot of consistency in their use.
  654. # [16:48] <KevinLawver> zakim, +q kevinlawver, to refute molly's assertion about microformats
  655. # [16:48] <Zakim> I see MichaelC, kevinlawver on the speaker queue
  656. # [16:49] * anne tries to figure out the relationship between class= overloading and the HTML charter
  657. # [16:49] * anne will ponder on that while going to the restroom
  658. # [16:50] <fantasai> Molly lists criticisms: overuse of class attribute, misappropriation of other attributes like 'title',
  659. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> q?
  660. # [16:50] * Zakim sees MichaelC, kevinlawver on the speaker queue
  661. # [16:50] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  662. # [16:51] <gsnedders> Some of the design choices for µf were done because of bugs in UAs like Safari 1.0, which now have very little use. Could those be changed, I wonder
  663. # [16:52] <ChrisWilson> ack MichaelC
  664. # [16:52] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say a subset of microformat approaches creates accessibility problems; W3C endorsement would need resolution of those issues
  665. # [16:52] * Zakim sees kevinlawver on the speaker queue
  666. # [16:52] <dbaron> People shouldn't touch the document for style (perhaps), but microformats are about content, which should be in the document.
  667. # [16:52] <ChrisWilson> MichaelC specifically mentions the title attrib creating accessibility problems
  668. # [16:52] <fantasai> MichaelC: Molly's basically covered me. Microformat's use of the title attribute creates problems for accessibility.
  669. # [16:52] <ChrisWilson> ack kevinLawver
  670. # [16:52] <Zakim> kevinlawver, you wanted to refute molly's assertion about microformats
  671. # [16:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  672. # [16:53] <fantasai> Kevin: As a member of the micoformats community and someone who's created one, I can see the problem with the title attribute but I think the use of the class attribute is in line
  673. # [16:53] * myakura wonders how this mf discussion is related to the html5 reqs.
  674. # [16:53] <ChrisWilson> "It's not an argument, it's a discussion. We only have a few minutes." cause and effect?
  675. # [16:53] <fantasai> Kevin: Microformats are a guerilla movement to add semantics in places where the HTML spec doesn't have.
  676. # [16:54] <fantasai> Kevin: ...
  677. # [16:54] * Joins: tH (Rob@83.100.132.119)
  678. # [16:54] <fantasai> Kevin: I think microformats can evolve.
  679. # [16:54] <oedipus> GJR notes that PF WG has requested that "title" be added to XHTML Role Module's pre-difined roles:
  680. # [16:54] <oedipus> consult: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0123.html
  681. # [16:54] <fantasai> DanC: Suppose I'm an HTML author and I'm making a shopping list. I chose shopinglist to name my list.
  682. # [16:55] <fantasai> DanC: Life goes on and hShopping goes out and it's all the rage
  683. # [16:55] <fantasai> DanC: Then I realize I've mispelt shoppinglist, fix it, and all of a sudden my list goes green and starts jumping around.
  684. # [16:56] <chaals> [that is my concern...]
  685. # [16:56] <ChrisWilson> KevinLawver: "Then it's your own damn fault for not being on the open web."
  686. # [16:56] <Lachy> DanC, that's absurd. The default presentation of any new microformat isn't going to be that detrimental
  687. # [16:56] <fantasai> Kevin explains microformats methodology and how existing use is examined and e.g. names like vevent are chosen over event.
  688. # [16:56] <fantasai> Move to table argument.
  689. # [16:57] <fantasai> Molly: What's the goal?
  690. # [16:57] <ChrisWilson> Lachy, I'm not sure I agree with that; I do agree that it's not a major problem (yet).
  691. # [16:57] <fantasai> DanC: You mentioned concerns about class, I have to understand that to write it up.
  692. # [16:57] * KevinLawver expressed a complete lack of concern about "class" in contrast to Molly's concerns. 8)
  693. # [16:57] * glazou gives an I-remain-quiet-and-smiling Award to Dan
  694. # [16:57] <Lachy> I wonder, with any existing uf, has the default presentation in any UA caused any such problems?
  695. # [16:57] <chaals> fantasai: Some stuff on µformats is better than other stuff...
  696. # [16:58] <fantasai> fantasai: W3C shouldn't be vetting everything that gets put up
  697. # [16:58] <molly> my concern is not in the use of class, but in the overuse of class within large document management situations. Who maintains the documentation? How do you manage organic growth with so many classes in a document, etc.
  698. # [16:58] <Lachy> I suspect the answer is no and that Dan is just making up a problem that doesn't actually exist
  699. # [16:58] <KevinLawver> I think we table this until we can get tantek or some other microformats "luminary" explain the process.
  700. # [16:59] <Hixie> q+ to ask what we're pointing at
  701. # [16:59] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  702. # [16:59] <fantasai> DanC: This pointer has to be scoped, not generally recommending everything.
  703. # [16:59] <fantasai> Anne explains the whatwg relextension
  704. # [16:59] <Hixie> ack Hixie
  705. # [16:59] <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to ask what we're pointing at
  706. # [16:59] <fantasai> page
  707. # [16:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  708. # [16:59] <anne> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
  709. # [17:00] <fantasai> Anne: There are proposals and approved extensions. Approved basically means it has gone through the microformats process.
  710. # [17:00] <fantasai> fantasai thinks that system is fine
  711. # [17:01] <hsivonen> q+
  712. # [17:01] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  713. # [17:01] * Bert wonders if somebody from this group with a bit of time and some English writing skills could turn these discussions into an HTML5 FAQ: what is the accessibility pb with µF? what is quirksmode? what are "magic namespaces"? why is ARIA not a µF? why doesn't video recommend MPEG? etc.
  714. # [17:01] <hsivonen> q-
  715. # [17:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  716. # [17:01] <PIon> DanC; gave example of the author who does class='shoping-list' in pages and in the CSS; then, say, use of 'shoping-list' becomes popular, but the author realizes the mispelling, corrects it on all the written site pages --- and everyone deplores that the popular 'shoping-list' sites elsewhere are broken and confusion with another, perhaps more official, 'shopping-list' value and its uses abounds.
  717. # [17:02] * gsnedders could add that to his to-do list
  718. # [17:02] <Hixie> i asked them here: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2007-11-10#T154438
  719. # [17:02] <fantasai> Hixie points to spec that points to whatwg registry
  720. # [17:02] <fantasai> Topic: Canvas
  721. # [17:03] <fantasai> DanC: I contacted SVG group and explained what this was and asked if there were any objections, and I heard none.
  722. # [17:03] * Quits: Dennis (forty4@63.119.44.226) (Ping timeout)
  723. # [17:03] <fantasai> DanC: Chris Lilley wrote that there are vector graphics and immediate mode graphics and the world needs both and they can co-exist
  724. # [17:03] <Hixie> "Forms and common UI widgets such as progress bars, datagrids, menus, and other controls."
  725. # [17:03] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html
  726. # [17:03] <glazou> I really wonder if a wiki page for rel extensions is considered a reliable registry...
  727. # [17:04] <fantasai> if it's only one page, each entry is simple enough that there's almost no editorial editing, and it's being watched, it should be ok
  728. # [17:04] <fantasai> Hixie suggests that <canvas> falls under widgets
  729. # [17:05] <fantasai> s/if it's/<fantasai> if it's/
  730. # [17:06] <fantasai> Maciej: Is it possible to edit the charter without going through the whole charter approval process?
  731. # [17:06] <ChrisWilson> q+
  732. # [17:06] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  733. # [17:06] <fantasai> Maciej: That will rathole the whole group.
  734. # [17:06] <fantasai> DanC: No, we can't do that.
  735. # [17:06] <fantasai> Maciej: Then I suggest we don't go there.
  736. # [17:06] <chaals> q+
  737. # [17:06] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, chaals on the speaker queue
  738. # [17:06] <anne> [a-z]* would cover that
  739. # [17:06] <chaals> ach chr
  740. # [17:07] <Hixie> q+ calendar
  741. # [17:07] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, chaals, calendar on the speaker queue
  742. # [17:07] <Hixie> er
  743. # [17:07] <Hixie> q- calendar
  744. # [17:07] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, chaals on the speaker queue
  745. # [17:07] <anne> sorry [a-z-]*
  746. # [17:07] <Hixie> q+ hixie for calendar
  747. # [17:07] * Zakim Hixie, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  748. # [17:07] <chaals> ack cal
  749. # [17:07] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, chaals on the speaker queue
  750. # [17:07] <Hixie> q+ hixie to talk about calendar
  751. # [17:07] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, chaals, hixie on the speaker queue
  752. # [17:07] <fantasai> argument about whether <canvas> is covered in the HTMLWG charter.
  753. # [17:07] <chaals> ack Chr
  754. # [17:07] * Zakim sees chaals, hixie on the speaker queue
  755. # [17:07] <fantasai> ChrisW: I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, I'm saying it's not in our charter.
  756. # [17:07] <fantasai> ChrisW: Our lawyers when reviewing this document wouldn't have checked for graphics patents
  757. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> Present+ MauroNunez
  758. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> Present+ PhilippHoschka
  759. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> Present+ TonyGrasso
  760. # [17:08] <Hixie> q- Hixie
  761. # [17:08] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  762. # [17:09] <fantasai> DanC: tells Maciej to add Immediate Mode Graphics to the Principles/Requirements issue tracker
  763. # [17:09] <ChrisWilson> q+ to raise David Baron's point about the patent clock starting when a public draft is released.
  764. # [17:09] * Zakim sees chaals, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  765. # [17:09] <chaals> ACTION: Chaals make a proposal to explain how immediate mode graphics is part of HTML
  766. # [17:09] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  767. # [17:09] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Chaals
  768. # [17:09] * RRSAgent records action 35
  769. # [17:09] <chaals> ACTION: charles make a proposal to explain how immediate mode graphics is part of HTML
  770. # [17:09] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  771. # [17:09] * RRSAgent records action 36
  772. # [17:09] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - charles
  773. # [17:09] <smedero> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/15
  774. # [17:10] <chaals> q-
  775. # [17:10] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  776. # [17:10] * Joins: tantek (tantek@70.13.177.183)
  777. # [17:10] <fantasai> Hixie: <canvas> is an HTML element, is in three browsers, and is one of the most interoperable parts of the HTML5 spec. Why dont' we just put it in? It's in the charter already.
  778. # [17:10] <Lachy> Since <canvas> is so widely used and implemnted by 3 major browsers already, it really needs to be defined somewhere. And since it's an HTML element, it should be defined in HTML5
  779. # [17:10] <fantasai> DanC tries to mediate between MS and Hixie
  780. # [17:11] <fantasai> Hixie feels that this will be wasting time
  781. # [17:12] <oedipus> Lachy, re canvas remarks, what about SVG in text/html -- is that unrealistic from your perspective? is canvas sufficient, in competition with, or render redundant SVG in text/html?
  782. # [17:12] <fantasai> Anne: why wasn't this raised when the document was submitted?
  783. # [17:12] * Joins: mauro (mauro@128.30.52.30)
  784. # [17:12] <fantasai> DanC: It was
  785. # [17:12] <fantasai> Chaals wants a chance to write things up
  786. # [17:12] <fantasai> seems to be some misunderstanding of what was and was not in the charter.
  787. # [17:13] <Lachy> oedipus, I'm ok with eventually developing SVG for use in HTML. As Dan said earlier, vector graphics and immediate mode graphics can co-exist
  788. # [17:13] <fantasai> Maciej: I believe it was in earlier drafts of the charter, but was edited out later.
  789. # [17:13] <fantasai> DanC: Hixie made a strong point that we should essentially agree that it's in. So we put the question, and 7 days later that would be it. Chris are you ok with that?
  790. # [17:13] <anne> CW: I thought it was in the charter, Chris Lilley thought it was in the charter too
  791. # [17:14] <fantasai> ChrisW: What do you mean
  792. # [17:14] <fantasai> DanC: We agree that it's included in bullet ?
  793. # [17:14] * chaals thinks proposed question is "does the charter including widgets etc imply immediate mode graphics?"
  794. # [17:14] <fantasai> ChrisW: There's no mention of graphics
  795. # [17:15] <fantasai> discussion of patent policy stuff and 150 days from first public working draft or 90 days or something
  796. # [17:15] <fantasai> DanC: The proposal for issue-15, which is more or less a thumbs-up,
  797. # [17:15] <dbaron> Patent policy is at http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Exclusion
  798. # [17:15] <fantasai> DanC: how long will it take for your lawyers to get back to us?
  799. # [17:15] <dbaron> "Specific Essential Claims may be excluded from the W3C RF licensing requirements by a participant who seeks to remain in the Working Group only if that participant indicates its refusal to license specific claims no later than 150 days after the publication of the first public Working Draft [PROCESS, section 7.4.1] by specifically disclosing Essential Claims that will not be licensed on W3C RF terms."
  800. # [17:16] <glazou> KevinLawver: ?
  801. # [17:17] <glazou> KevinLawver: YGM
  802. # [17:17] <Lachy> Canvas was in the WHATWG draft well before the HTMLWG charter was written. I think it's just a mistake that it wasn't mentioned more explicitly than it is, but that it does fall under widgets
  803. # [17:17] <fantasai> ACTION ChrisW: come back in a month with more information on MS patent review with <canvas>
  804. # [17:17] * RRSAgent records action 37
  805. # [17:17] <dbaron> "A participant may resign from the Working Group within 90 days after the publication of the first public Working Draft and be excused from all licensing commitments arising out of Working Group participation."
  806. # [17:17] <dbaron> So there are actually both 90 day and 150 day clocks that start at FPWD.
  807. # [17:18] <fantasai> thanks dbaron
  808. # [17:18] <fantasai> 10 min break
  809. # [17:18] * ed_ thinks Lachy has a point there
  810. # [17:19] <Lachy> it could also fall under editing apis, since it allows for editing of graphics
  811. # [17:19] * Quits: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.153) (Client exited)
  812. # [17:19] <molly> Kevin and I have created a new microformat to define robber barons versus fanatics
  813. # [17:20] <molly> we are overusing class
  814. # [17:20] <molly> and I'm thinking about a way to misappropriate the title attribute
  815. # [17:20] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.153)
  816. # [17:20] <molly> just for fun :D
  817. # [17:22] <dbaron> can I object to the terminology in your new microformat? :-P
  818. # [17:23] <KevinLawver> You can, dbaron, but that will probably put you firmly in one of the two buckets.
  819. # [17:23] <anne> I suggest you use <abbr> in weird ways too
  820. # [17:24] <mjs> dbaron: I see, so you have a 90-day clock to quit with no obligation, and a 150-day clock to claim specific exclusion if you didn't quit
  821. # [17:26] * Joins: arun_ (arunranga@63.119.44.172)
  822. # [17:26] * arun_ is now known as arun
  823. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> Present+ Arun
  824. # [17:28] <mauro> Present+ MauroNunez
  825. # [17:33] <KevinLawver> Seriously, the only really ugly hack in microformats land that i'll admit to is using title with non-human readable dates. It's ugly, and i think we understand it's ugly - but it's not something that can't be fixed by adding a "value" attribute to HTML5.
  826. # [17:33] <KevinLawver> (or something like it)
  827. # [17:33] <mjs> it's not?
  828. # [17:33] <anne> <i> <object>
  829. # [17:33] <anne> <i> <br> <u>
  830. # [17:33] <mjs> oh
  831. # [17:33] <anne> any other sentences?
  832. # [17:33] <KevinLawver> Sorry, if it is, I haven't gotten to it yet.
  833. # [17:33] <mjs> "not something that can't"
  834. # [17:34] * mjs was confused by the double negative
  835. # [17:34] <KevinLawver> I'm new here - I'm still catching up on the mountain o' spec.
  836. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  837. # [17:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  838. # [17:35] <Hixie> KevinLawver: we've already fixed that one with <time datetime=>
  839. # [17:35] <Hixie> in html5
  840. # [17:35] <Hixie> and i agree that's the only major issue
  841. # [17:36] <KevinLawver> Sweet, then my work here is done. Up, up and away!
  842. # [17:36] <smedero> Results of Questionnaire Release "HTML Design Principles" as a W3C Working Draft? - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
  843. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> Present- PhilippHoschka
  844. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> Present- Bert
  845. # [17:38] <fantasai> DanC points the non-responders: This is the problem right here.
  846. # [17:38] <fantasai> ACTION DanC: make sure non-responders are ok with proposal to publish the principles
  847. # [17:38] * RRSAgent records action 38
  848. # [17:38] <anne> DanC: and likewise the spec
  849. # [17:39] * MichaelC notes this is the third survey about whether we should publish, didn't answer third time, my answers from previous surveys stand
  850. # [17:40] * anne gets confused with all the surveys
  851. # [17:40] <fantasai> ACTION DanC: make sure non-responders are ok with proposal to publish the spec
  852. # [17:40] * RRSAgent records action 39
  853. # [17:40] <tantek> datetime is only one example of a data type which requires different human vs. machine readable information, thus <time datetime=> only solves some cases
  854. # [17:40] <tantek> other examples:
  855. # [17:41] <fantasai> ACTION DanC: put question in issue-15: does the working group want to do <canvas>
  856. # [17:41] * RRSAgent records action 40
  857. # [17:41] <tantek> * geo: e.g. longitude as a decimal (for machines) vs. ° ' " (deg min sec)
  858. # [17:41] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  859. # [17:41] * Philip wonders why machines can't read degrees/minutes/seconds trivially
  860. # [17:41] <fantasai> Topic: offline applications
  861. # [17:41] * Quits: glazou (daniel@63.119.45.76) (Ping timeout)
  862. # [17:42] <fantasai> DanC: charter doesn't mention SQL
  863. # [17:42] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  864. # [17:42] <fantasai> DanC: We can add an issue
  865. # [17:42] <tantek> * localized labels vs. enumerated set, e.g. tel type of "work" (enumerated value) vs. "Arbeit:" (label in German)
  866. # [17:42] <fantasai> DanC: It would be more straightforward to publish this as a separate draft. People would sit up and pay attention, since offline app stuff would be its own psec with that in the title.
  867. # [17:43] <chaals> [/me thinks that the relationship to WebAPI is a relevant issue to this topic]
  868. # [17:43] <fantasai> Hixie, Anne: it's pretty tied into everything else.
  869. # [17:43] * ChrisWilson agrees very much with chaals.
  870. # [17:44] <fantasai> Hixie suggests having a summary, which can later be used as a tutorial for the spec
  871. # [17:44] * oedipus chaals' comment on WebAPI gets a +2 from me...
  872. # [17:45] * anne thinks Web API needs editors first
  873. # [17:45] <fantasai> Hixie: We need more feedback on this spec anyway
  874. # [17:45] <tantek> got to run - but just wanted to summarize that microformats use of <abbr> is not just for datetimes, but for all situations where there must be a different value presented to computers vs. humans, without making the computer value totally invisible (title attribute permits tooltip inspection at least)
  875. # [17:45] <fantasai> trying to find an editor
  876. # [17:45] * chaals wonders if CW/GR are interested in putting their comments on the permanent record by putting it outside /me
  877. # [17:46] <oedipus> GRJ gives a STRONG +1 to chaals' comment on WebAPI
  878. # [17:46] * oedipus it would be nice if i knew my own initials!
  879. # [17:46] <chaals> s/GRJ/GJR/
  880. # [17:46] * Quits: tantek (tantek@70.13.177.183) (Quit: tantek)
  881. # [17:46] * chaals knows them :P
  882. # [17:47] * oedipus you beat me to it, thanks, chaals
  883. # [17:47] <ChrisWilson> [/me I agree with Chaals very much that the relationship with WebAPI is very relevant; vis, I'm not sure why these features are in HTML5 and not within the WebAPI charter.
  884. # [17:47] * oedipus :-S (new one i learnt from StevenP
  885. # [17:47] <fantasai> ACTION Anne and Hixie: draft offline apps intro/tutorial/overview/thing by end of year
  886. # [17:48] <ChrisWilson> q?
  887. # [17:48] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  888. # [17:48] <ChrisWilson> ack
  889. # [17:48] <ChrisWilson> ack ChrisWilson
  890. # [17:48] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to raise David Baron's point about the patent clock starting when a public draft is released.
  891. # [17:48] <mjs> q>
  892. # [17:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  893. # [17:48] <chaals> ACTION: Chaals to talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion
  894. # [17:48] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  895. # [17:48] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Chaals
  896. # [17:48] * RRSAgent records action 41
  897. # [17:48] <ChrisWilson> yeah, that was a while ago. :^/
  898. # [17:48] * chaals wonders who he needs to bribe to get recognised in this group.
  899. # [17:48] * MikeSmith will add Chaals to tracker now
  900. # [17:48] * oedipus says chaals, i don't know, but i'll be the bagman
  901. # [17:49] <ChrisWilson> I recognize you, Chaals - you're hard to miss
  902. # [17:49] <fantasai> Topic: Thanks to organizers and participants
  903. # [17:49] <fantasai> RESOLVED
  904. # [17:49] * oedipus lol, ChrisW -- even a blind man can spot him at 100 paces!
  905. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
  906. # [17:49] <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
  907. # [17:49] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
  908. # [17:49] * trackbot-ng found 15 users
  909. # [17:49] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  910. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> chaals, please try that action again
  911. # [17:50] <Hixie> anne: when are you leaving town, btw?
  912. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status?
  913. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
  914. # [17:51] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
  915. # [17:51] * arun wonders if anyone wants to split a cab at 12.15 or so to go to the airport
  916. # [17:51] <fantasai> meeting closed
  917. # [17:51] <anne> Hixie, my plane leaves at 10PM
  918. # [17:51] <oedipus> GJR thanks all for allowing/permitting/putting-up-with remote participators
  919. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Charles to talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion
  920. # [17:52] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  921. # [17:52] * RRSAgent records action 42
  922. # [17:52] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-13 - Talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2007-11-17].
  923. # [17:53] * Quits: KevinLawver (kplawver@64.236.128.27) (Quit: KevinLawver)
  924. # [17:53] <Hixie> anne: k, wanna work on the the note today?
  925. # [17:53] * chaals wonders if trackbot-ng knows that I am more often chaals than charles, like the old one did
  926. # [17:53] * oedipus wishes happy trails to everyone...
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  931. # [17:55] <ChrisWilson> </cwilso>
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  934. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> chaals - dunno.
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  938. # [17:56] <myakura> thanks everyone.
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  943. # [18:00] <Hixie> hixie.ch/www/advocacy/offline-webapps/notes
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  947. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  948. # [18:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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  1022. # Session Close: Sun Nov 11 00:00:00 2007

The end :)