/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-14 / end

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  63. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - thanks for your message about minutes from the TPAC face-to-face meetings
  64. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> I will be attempting this week to get a meeting report written up
  65. # [10:09] <hsivonen> ok
  66. # [10:12] <zcorpan> wow, smil 3 will use only one namespace
  67. # [10:12] * zcorpan didn't expect that
  68. # [10:19] <hsivonen> so are SMIL 1, 2 and 3 all incompatible with each other?
  69. # [10:23] <zcorpan> yes
  70. # [10:23] <zcorpan> smil 2 is incompatible with smil 2
  71. # [10:29] <hsivonen> I wonder what that means but on the face of it, I don't doubt the statement :-)
  72. # [10:35] <zcorpan> smil 2 has lots of profiles, each of which has its own namespace
  73. # [10:35] <zcorpan> or modules
  74. # [10:36] <zcorpan> s/or/and/
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  79. # [10:58] <anne> zcorpan, already back?
  80. # [10:59] <zcorpan> yep
  81. # [10:59] <anne> wb
  82. # [10:59] <zcorpan> thanks
  83. # [10:59] * anne thought it would be another week
  84. # [10:59] <zcorpan> that would have been nice
  85. # [11:00] <anne> :)
  86. # [11:00] <anne> I believe everyone now agrees on aria-'property'="" btw
  87. # [11:01] <zcorpan> i heard
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  89. # [11:02] <anne> open issues: 1) aria= / role=; 2) who defines ARIA / 1; 3) how is 1 processed
  90. # [11:02] <anne> 4) 3 for authors
  91. # [11:09] <hsivonen> zcorpan: have you considered joining the PF group?
  92. # [11:11] <zcorpan> i haven't really, but it might help
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  102. # [12:11] * anne changes topic to 'HTML WG (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
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  110. # [12:56] <hsivonen> are there known Java impls of CSS media query parsing except in the CSS Validator
  111. # [12:57] <hsivonen> (the CSS Validator code seems to be part of larger JavaCC grammar and, as such, not quite reusable on as standalone)
  112. # [12:57] <hsivonen> ?
  113. # [13:02] <hsivonen> in http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/#syntax , do I read media_query correctly that it is
  114. # [13:02] <hsivonen> [[only | not]? <media_type> [ and <expression> ]*]
  115. # [13:02] <hsivonen> OR
  116. # [13:02] <hsivonen> <expression> [ and <expression> ]*
  117. # [13:02] * hsivonen isn't 100% sure of | precedence
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  121. # [13:23] <hsivonen> hmm. is the example in http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/#parse out of sync with the rest of the spec?
  122. # [13:23] <hsivonen> the example uses > instead of min- prefix
  123. # [13:24] <hsivonen> oh. it is a quote from HTML4
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  125. # [13:38] <anne> media queries will be slightly redone
  126. # [13:39] <hsivonen> anne: how much is slightly? should I halt implementation?
  127. # [13:40] <anne> I think <media_query> will become something like: [[only | not]? [<media type> [and <expression> ]* | <expression>*]
  128. # [13:40] <anne> though maybe you can't write "only (min-width:200px)" ... that wouldn't make much sense
  129. # [13:41] <anne> the general idea is to make "<media_type> and" optional
  130. # [13:41] <hsivonen> anne: per my reading, it is already
  131. # [13:42] <anne> oh
  132. # [13:42] <hsivonen> anne: however, what you wrote would allow consecutive expressions without "and" in between
  133. # [13:43] <anne> what I wrote is wrong
  134. # [13:44] <anne> another new rule is that if a media query fails to parse it is not "false" but it is dropped
  135. # [13:45] <anne> this makes it non-conforming to write such a thing too, as a result
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  137. # [13:48] <anne> [[only | not]? <media type> [and <expression> ]* | [not]? <expression> [and <expression>]*]
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  139. # [13:48] <hsivonen> anne: ok, so the spec draft is missing the second not?
  140. # [13:48] <hsivonen> and that's it?
  141. # [13:49] <anne> well, I'm going to suggest that change
  142. # [13:49] <anne> i think in general the syntax there is prolly what it's going to be, yes
  143. # [13:49] <anne> no major changes
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  147. # [13:56] <anne> actually, never mind my not? suggestion
  148. # [13:56] <anne> it doesn't make much sense given the min-/max- prefixes everywhere
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  155. # [14:31] <anne2> zcorpan, <div><b>x</div> invokes the end tag formatting algorithm
  156. # [14:31] * anne2 is now known as anne
  157. # [14:31] <anne> 'An end tag whose tag name is one of: "a", "b", "big", "em", "font", "i", "nobr", "s", "small", "strike", "strong", "tt", "u"'
  158. # [14:31] <anne> is what you want
  159. # [14:31] <zcorpan> aha
  160. # [14:32] <anne> i think that's what happens, anyway
  161. # [14:32] <zcorpan> but </div> doesn't say "imply </b>", it says "pop elements", no?
  162. # [14:34] <anne> it's different
  163. # [14:34] <anne> <b> affects the active formatting elements
  164. # [14:34] <anne> character data after </div> triggers that again
  165. # [14:36] <anne> parsing HTML is not for the weak...
  166. # [14:38] <anne> hsivonen, the idea is that comma's take precedence
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  168. # [15:06] <hsivonen> anne: do you mean that the parser should revert its state no matter what state it is in and scan for a comma?
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  170. # [15:07] <hsivonen> doesn't matter for validation, though
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  172. # [15:13] <anne> hsivonen, split on comma, then parse each query
  173. # [15:13] <anne> that's the model
  174. # [15:13] <hsivonen> anne: ok
  175. # [15:14] <anne> i suppose this may not be sufficiently clear from the spec
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  190. # [16:48] <hsivonen> anne: are escapes generally allowed in CSS identifiers?
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  192. # [16:51] <anne> yes
  193. # [16:51] <anne> CSS syntax is quite poorly designed in that aspect imo
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  196. # [17:06] <hsivonen> anne: no fun writing a state machine with escape support by hand
  197. # [17:06] <hsivonen> I figured media queries would be simple enough to parse manually...
  198. # [17:06] <hsivonen> without a parser generator, that is
  199. # [17:08] <anne> i don't think escape support will be in
  200. # [17:08] <anne> i would be opposed to that
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  209. # [17:48] <anne> hsivonen, how is CSS whitespace different from XML 1.0 whitespace?
  210. # [17:59] <anne> HTML: U+0020 SPACE, U+0009 CHARACTER TABULATION (tab), U+000A LINE FEED (LF), U+000B LINE TABULATION, U+000C FORM FEED (FF), and U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN (CR)
  211. # [17:59] <anne> CSS: "space" (U+0020), "tab" (U+0009), "line feed" (U+000A), "carriage return" (U+000D), and "form feed" (U+000C)
  212. # [17:59] <anne> XML: #x20 | #x9 | #xD | #xA
  213. # [18:00] <anne> So CSS has U+000C over XML and HTML has U+000B over CSS
  214. # [18:02] <anne> I wonder which implementations do U+000B
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  220. # [18:33] <anne> hsivonen, I made http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/mediaqueries
  221. # [18:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: is this for checking conformance of the media= attribute?
  222. # [18:37] <anne> yes
  223. # [18:37] <anne> though I'm not Henri
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  229. # [19:05] <Hixie> anne: is "Access-Control: <hello-world.invalid>" a valid header?
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  235. # [19:27] <anne> Hixie, yes
  236. # [19:27] <anne> no
  237. # [19:27] <anne> it's not
  238. # [19:27] <anne> oops
  239. # [19:27] * anne fixes
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  242. # [19:35] <anne> Hixie, in general I think the sections other than the processing model need some sort of revamp
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  248. # [20:02] <hsivonen> anne: It would be good to record Dave Singer's points about using media queries to query user capabilities (prefs) as an issue somewhere. HTML WG issue or CSS WG issue or both?
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  251. # [20:14] <Hixie> anne: sent comments
  252. # [20:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: did you see the whitespace discrepancy point I mentioned on www-style?
  253. # [20:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: If you've told me why vertical tab is space in HTML5, I have forgotten
  254. # [20:17] <Hixie> whitespace means several things just within HTML5
  255. # [20:17] <Hixie> let alone when compared to other specs like Unicode, XML, JS, or CSS, each of which has their own definition
  256. # [20:17] <Hixie> iirc VT is included because implementations include it
  257. # [20:19] <hsivonen> OK. In that case, I suggest media queries should inherit the set of white space characters from the host language
  258. # [20:19] <hsivonen> as a conformance requirement, it would be highly silly that VT in HTML5 were ok between class name tokens but not between media query tokens
  259. # [20:19] <Hixie> or i could define a preprocessing step in HTML5 to normalise the whitespace first
  260. # [20:20] <Hixie> (for media queries(
  261. # [20:20] <Hixie> ))
  262. # [20:20] <hsivonen> that would work too
  263. # [20:20] <hsivonen> In fact, that's what I already do. :-)
  264. # [20:20] <Hixie> gotta go to work. will be back online in either 20 minutes or 3 hours depending on how boring my meetings are.
  265. # [20:20] <Hixie> feel free to send mail.
  266. # [20:20] <Hixie> bbbl
  267. # [20:20] <hsivonen> ok
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  271. # [20:24] <hsivonen> email sent
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  283. # [21:50] <anne> hsivonen, not sure, should probably be something separate
  284. # [21:56] * anne deals with Hixie's comments by not working access-control tonight
  285. # [22:03] <Hixie> hah
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  288. # [22:09] <Hixie> hsivonen: note that html5 doesn't have that disclaimer :-)
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  296. # [22:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: which disclaimer?
  297. # [22:59] <Hixie> the one about the spec not being stable, etc
  298. # [23:00] <hsivonen> ah
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  305. # [23:40] <anne> re #whatwg
  306. # [23:40] <anne> the trigger is 'use namespace intrinsic' as I understand it
  307. # [23:40] <anne> not necessarily ;version=4
  308. # [23:42] <Hixie> that's not what i've heard
  309. # [23:43] <anne> my latest update was a few weeks back
  310. # [23:43] <Hixie> mine was today :-)
  311. # [23:43] <anne> interesting
  312. # [23:43] <mjs> anne: I don't believe that is true
  313. # [23:43] <anne> I did hear conflicting things back then too, though
  314. # [23:43] <mjs> anne: "use namespace intrinsic" is to allow early binding
  315. # [23:44] <mjs> it does not affect keywords
  316. # [23:44] <mjs> or any other syntax
  317. # [23:44] <mjs> but in any case just saying "use namespace intrinsic" would break an ES3 browser
  318. # [23:44] <anne> if you really need ;version=4 that's a problem
  319. # [23:44] <Hixie> i'm not so concerned about ES4 script actually running in an ES3 interpreter
  320. # [23:45] <Hixie> though that would be ideal
  321. # [23:45] <Hixie> i'm more concerned with requiring out-of-band signalling for version selection
  322. # [23:45] <Hixie> though i agree that it would be nice if the script itself could run in an ES3 interpreter and self-degrade to ES3-compatible code
  323. # [23:46] <mjs> well if you don't have the potential to self-degrade then you need the out-of-band signalling to make ES3 browsers ignore the script
  324. # [23:46] <mjs> so the two issues are not unrelated
  325. # [23:47] <Hixie> you could implement self-degrading by having an ES3 script that embeds ES4 or ES3 script based on environment detection, without out-of-band signalling
  326. # [23:47] <mjs> the problem is that ES has a nontrivial surface syntax
  327. # [23:48] <mjs> so you can't really do that
  328. # [23:48] <mjs> unless you mean document.writing a <script> tag
  329. # [23:48] <Hixie> for instance
  330. # [23:49] <mjs> which I think is doable with the current model
  331. # [23:49] <mjs> but that is the moral equivalent of alternately serving text/html or application/xhtml+xml
  332. # [23:49] <mjs> which has well-known issues
  333. # [23:51] * mjs can't believe the number of channels in which he is now simultaneously discussing ES4
  334. # [23:52] <gavin_> heh
  335. # [23:52] <Dashiva> mjs: Well, I can't say I didn't see it coming after checking the scrollbar length on that email
  336. # [23:52] <Hixie> oh right, what was the one you wanted me to join called again?
  337. # [23:53] <gavin_> #jslang on irc.m.o?
  338. # [23:53] <Hixie> jslang, ok
  339. # [23:53] <mjs> what gavin_ said
  340. # [23:54] <anne> #jslang wfm
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  343. # Session Close: Thu Nov 15 00:00:01 2007

The end :)