/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 16 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:07] <anne> Philip, feel free to comment there suggesting that
  4. # [00:07] * anne has this feeling we'll end up implementing ECMAScript bindings for OpenGL in the end
  5. # [00:11] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.175)
  6. # [00:11] <Philip> anne: I'm first trying to work out what the use cases are, so then I can say something more useful than "I don't really like how that API looks" and be less subjective :-)
  7. # [00:21] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  8. # [00:24] * Hixie wonders why anne isn't in #webapi
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  12. # [00:30] <anne> Hixie, I'm not on freenode #webapi, I'm on W3C #webapi
  13. # [00:31] <Hixie> ah, oops
  14. # [00:31] <anne> http://www.google.com/search?q=wanadoo+and+freenode
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  16. # [00:32] <Hixie> i love that the first hit is me talking
  17. # [00:51] <Hixie> i guess we find out when html5 is publishing the fpwd tomorrow
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  19. # [00:57] <anne> s/when/if/ ...
  20. # [00:59] <Hixie> oh it'll be published...
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  39. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> Marcos__ - buenos días
  40. # [01:48] <Marcos__> heya mikesmith :)
  41. # [01:49] * Marcos__ is rearranging his computers... got a mac mini yesterday to do testing on... I now have four monitors on my desk :(
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  43. # [01:53] * MikeSmith and andreas are at MMI workshop at Keio U.
  44. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> Marcos__ - andreas works for Opera here in Tokyo
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  46. # [01:54] <Marcos__> mikesmith, how's the workshop going? what are you discussing?
  47. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> Marcos__ - discussing something bout modalities
  48. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> multiple ones
  49. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> that's about as much as I know
  50. # [01:56] <Marcos__> hehe
  51. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> only 2.5 hours of sleep last night
  52. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> so I'm a little slow on the uptake at this point
  53. # [01:57] <Marcos__> fair enough
  54. # [01:57] <Marcos__> at least you didnt show up drunk :)
  55. # [01:57] <Marcos__> ...or did you? :D
  56. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> not drunk -- just slightly buzzed
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  142. # [14:26] <aaronlev> DanC: i can make the html wg meeting today but will miss the first part
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  145. # [14:45] <DanC> ok; when do you think you can join?
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  148. # [15:09] <DanC> hmm... where's mikesmith? I'd like 2 more topic anchors before the aria thing in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes-other.html
  149. # [15:09] <Lachy> Yay! HDP is being published :-)
  150. # [15:10] <Lachy> DanC, any idea when the spec will be published?
  151. # [15:11] <anne> I made the specification ready for publication yesterday
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  154. # [15:21] * myakura regrets that he hasn't finished the translation (ja) yet.
  155. # [15:23] <anne> DanC, any updates on the other drafts, which had pretty much the same feedback through the survey?
  156. # [15:26] <DanC> working on it
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  169. # [16:43] <aaronlev> DanC: can you delay the aria discussion until 15-20 minutes after the hour?
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  171. # [16:45] <DanC> I think so; actually, I forgot to put aria on the agenda.
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  173. # [16:46] <DanC> is Hixie around to eyeball this canvas question? http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/
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  176. # [16:55] <DanC> can anybody else eyeball it? anne? mjs?
  177. # [17:00] <Philip> Is it relevant that canvas specification is mostly about documenting existing practice, since it's already implemented in most major browsers, and is not about developing a new feature?
  178. # [17:14] <DanC> I thought I captured a sense of that
  179. # [17:15] <DanC> "Do use cases such as games, shared whiteboards, and yahoo pipes and others in the ESW wiki motivate a requirement that HTML 5 provide an immediate mode graphics API and canvas element?"
  180. # [17:15] <DanC> oh... I could cite the relevant design principle.
  181. # [17:15] <DanC> I'm inclined to leave it up to wiki-elves to do that. I think the WBS question is clear enough.
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  184. # [17:26] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
  185. # [17:26] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
  186. # [17:27] <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z
  187. # [17:27] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  188. # [17:28] <DanC> HTML WG teleconference 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
  189. # [17:28] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG teleconference 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
  190. # [17:28] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-18 html-design-principles HTML Design Principles
  191. # [17:28] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  192. # [17:28] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-19 html5-spec HTML 5 specification release(s)
  193. # [17:28] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  194. # [17:28] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-15 immediate-mode-graphics requirement for Immediate Mode Graphics and canvas element
  195. # [17:28] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  196. # [17:28] <DanC> agenda + # ISSUE-14 aria-role Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5
  197. # [17:28] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  198. # [17:28] <DanC> agenda 5 = ISSUE-14 aria-role Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5
  199. # [17:28] * Zakim notes agendum 5 replaced
  200. # [17:29] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-16 offline-applications-sql offline applications and data synchronization
  201. # [17:29] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  202. # [17:29] <DanC> agenda + face-to-face meeting 8-10 November, review
  203. # [17:29] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  204. # [17:36] <gsnedders> DanC: it looks fine to me, but I'd make it explicit that it is just defining current behaviour, and being compat with current content
  205. # [17:39] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99)
  206. # [17:39] * gsnedders notices that DanC has already announced it
  207. # [17:40] <DanC> this question is not a judgement on the details of the design; just the requirement
  208. # [17:40] <DanC> thanks for the quick feedback, in any case
  209. # [17:41] <DanC> yes, I announced it when it was clear that you understood the question
  210. # [17:43] <DanC> er... where's MikeSmith?
  211. # [17:45] * myakura yawns,,, (telecon at 2am...)
  212. # [17:54] * DanC takes a short break...
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  214. # [18:00] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  215. # [18:00] <Zakim> +JulianR
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  217. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  218. # [18:01] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  219. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  220. # [18:01] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
  221. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-irc#T17-01-18
  222. # [18:01] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  223. # [18:01] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
  224. # [18:02] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  225. # [18:02] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  226. # [18:02] <Zakim> +DanC
  227. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P9
  228. # [18:02] * DanC Zakim, ??P9 is hsivonen
  229. # [18:02] * Zakim +hsivonen; got it
  230. # [18:02] * oedipus says to DanC - i have a really bad cluster headache, so it might be best if i scribed and didn't have to think ;)
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  232. # [18:03] <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  233. # [18:03] <oedipus> scribenick: oedipus
  234. # [18:03] <DanC> Meeting: HTML WG Weekly
  235. # [18:04] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
  236. # [18:04] <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
  237. # [18:04] <Zakim> 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-11-16T17:00:00Z [from DanC]
  238. # [18:04] <Zakim> 2. ISSUE-18 html-design-principles HTML Design Principles [from DanC]
  239. # [18:04] <Zakim> 3. ISSUE-19 html5-spec HTML 5 specification release(s) [from DanC]
  240. # [18:04] <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-15 immediate-mode-graphics requirement for Immediate Mode Graphics and canvas element [from DanC]
  241. # [18:04] <Zakim> 5. ISSUE-14 aria-role Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5
  242. # [18:04] <Zakim> 6. ISSUE-16 offline-applications-sql offline applications and data synchronization [from DanC]
  243. # [18:04] <Zakim> 7. face-to-face meeting 8-10 November, review [from DanC]
  244. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Sam
  245. # [18:05] * DanC wonders if ChrisWilson is dialing...
  246. # [18:05] * ChrisWilson is trying to find the call info.
  247. # [18:05] <DanC> Zakim, passcode?
  248. # [18:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
  249. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  250. # [18:06] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  251. # [18:06] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
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  254. # [18:07] <oedipus> GJR: to coordinate some IRC time to discuss HTML5 stylesheet issues with the editors/interested parties -- a limited color pallatte using named colors needs some negotiation (and some eyeballs) and i'm still testing actual support for CSS generated text using :before and :after
  255. # [18:08] <DanC> 22 Nov telcon cancelled
  256. # [18:08] <oedipus> CW: skip next week's meeting -- next meeting 29 November 2007 at 1700z
  257. # [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  258. # [18:08] <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-18 html-design-principles HTML Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
  259. # [18:08] <anne> Zakim, who is here?
  260. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see JulianR, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen, DanC, Sam, ChrisWilson
  261. # [18:08] <oedipus> TOPIC: HTML Design Principles
  262. # [18:08] <Zakim> On IRC I see anne, aaronlev, rubys, Lachy, ChrisWilson, oedipus, Zakim, gavin, Sander, billmason, smedero, Julian, timbl, shepazu, marcospod, myakura, zcorpan, tH, xover, Thezilch,
  263. # [18:08] <Zakim> ... gavin_, mjs, JanC, marcos, jmb, heycam, gsnedders, paullewis, DanC, Shunsuke, Hixie, Dashiva, Philip, drry, Bert, laplink, bogi, jane, krijnh, deltab, beowulf, hsivonen,
  264. # [18:08] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  265. # [18:08] <Zakim> ... trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent
  266. # [18:08] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  267. # [18:09] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/18 HTML Design Principles
  268. # [18:09] <oedipus> DanC: migrated issues to issue tracker -- issue 18
  269. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P13
  270. # [18:09] <oedipus> DanC: completed action to email negative responders
  271. # [18:09] <Zakim> +anne
  272. # [18:09] <DanC> Zakim, ??P13 is aaronlev
  273. # [18:09] <Zakim> +aaronlev; got it
  274. # [18:09] <oedipus> DanC: Mike(tm)Smith still needs to compile minutes from saturday's HTML f2f session
  275. # [18:10] <oedipus> DanC: mjs Action 20 completed
  276. # [18:10] <oedipus> DanC: explores for a "comments" mailing list
  277. # [18:10] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/
  278. # [18:11] <oedipus> DanC: feedback on HDP should be sent to public-html-comments@w3.org
  279. # [18:11] <oedipus> s/feedback/outside feedback/
  280. # [18:11] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  281. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see JulianR, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen, DanC, Sam, ChrisWilson, aaronlev, anne
  282. # [18:11] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  283. # [18:11] <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-19 html5-spec HTML 5 specification release(s)" taken up [from DanC]
  284. # [18:11] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/19
  285. # [18:11] <oedipus> TOPIC: HTML5 Specification Draft Release
  286. # [18:12] <oedipus> DanC: had conversation with PTaylor about formal objection - action done
  287. # [18:12] <oedipus> DanC: completed action to email negative and non-responders - done
  288. # [18:13] <oedipus> Chairs have said the question does not carry -- WG will keep working on spec
  289. # [18:13] <DanC> DanC found out non-responders are not ok to publish
  290. # [18:13] <oedipus> Anne: graphics API a problem?
  291. # [18:14] <oedipus> DanC: publication starts the clock on W3C process
  292. # [18:14] <oedipus> Anne?/Henri?: deadline? make something available?
  293. # [18:14] * hsivonen that was Anne
  294. # [18:15] * DanC q?
  295. # [18:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  296. # [18:15] <hsivonen> s/Anne\?\/Henri\?/Anne/
  297. # [18:15] <oedipus> DanC: like those who responded no to releasing draft to explain comments on questions; question may need to be refined
  298. # [18:15] * oedipus thanks henri
  299. # [18:15] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  300. # [18:15] <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-15 immediate-mode-graphics requirement for Immediate Mode Graphics and canvas element" taken up [from DanC]
  301. # [18:15] <oedipus> TOPIC: ISSUE 15 Immediate Mode Graphics
  302. # [18:16] <oedipus> DanC: ChrisW get info from MS (10 december deadline); DanC put question to WG http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/
  303. # [18:16] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  304. # [18:16] <Zakim> On the phone I see JulianR, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen, DanC, Sam, ChrisWilson, aaronlev, anne
  305. # [18:16] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.175)
  306. # [18:17] <oedipus> Anne: how does modification of activity affect charter? results clear -- if say "yes" then might be changed
  307. # [18:17] <oedipus> DanC: question is "who is everyone" -- question to HTML WG and question to W3C; feedback at TPAC was that this issue is in scope; not critical path for denying discussions
  308. # [18:17] <oedipus> Anne: membership ok with it, can we carry on as usual?
  309. # [18:18] <oedipus> DanC: presuming all goes well, continue on in parallell
  310. # [18:19] <oedipus> JulianR: can answer in week
  311. # [18:19] * Lachy says hi
  312. # [18:19] <oedipus> Henri: can answer in week; question posed isn't what i want answered -- 3 of top 4 already implementing
  313. # [18:19] <oedipus> ChrisW: questions 3 out of 4
  314. # [18:19] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  315. # [18:20] <oedipus> DanC: a lot of people have made up their mind, but the question still has to be fielded
  316. # [18:20] <DanC> q+ to suggest a survey with some options in parallel
  317. # [18:20] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  318. # [18:20] <oedipus> ChrisW: in scope of WebAPI or not? 3 of 4 implemented shouldn't make issue one for HTML WG -- question whether covered by charter or patent policy; some implementors don't believe charter needs to be implemented, but that is my gut feeling
  319. # [18:21] <oedipus> DanC: considering doing an informal survey in parallel with formal survey; CANVAS tag in HTML WG and CANVAS tag in HTML WG or other WG? if formal question doesn't carry, still gaining info
  320. # [18:21] <ChrisWilson> My point is that 3 out of 4 implementers implementing means this IS in scope of "the platform"; the question, to my mind, is whether this is covered by our charter and therefore covered by the patent policy.
  321. # [18:22] <oedipus> DanC: been suggested that html5 spec should have CANVAS in it and cite document with graphics API -- question of whether HTML WG develops document or another WG develops document
  322. # [18:22] <ChrisWilson> The goal in creating a W3C WG with a patent policy is to explicitly lay out what that WG is going to do, so companies getting involved in the WG know what IP they may be offering up.
  323. # [18:22] <oedipus> Anne: rather keep it in HTML WG; willing to answer survey
  324. # [18:22] <ChrisWilson> Charters cannot be open-ended.
  325. # [18:22] <Lachy> isn't everything in the spec covered by the patent policy, regardless of whether it's explicitly in the charter?
  326. # [18:23] <oedipus> JulianR: spec already too complex -- need to seriously discuss way to take things out and harmonize with existing specs
  327. # [18:23] <DanC> agenda + outcome of HTML for authors session
  328. # [18:23] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
  329. # [18:24] <oedipus> GJR: spec too complex, but can answer any survey
  330. # [18:24] <ChrisWilson> Lachy, everything in the spec IS covered by the patent policy. Joining a working group cannot be opening a company's entire patent portfolio in a free-for-all, or those with large patent portfolios would be foolish to participate at all - weakening the point of having a patent policy.
  331. # [18:25] <oedipus> Henri: formal survey first, then consider steps to separate API portions of spec; question of whether anything should be taken out of spec dependent upon who is going to edit that portion of spec -- do we have expertise?
  332. # [18:25] <oedipus> SamR: can't answer within week; support informal survey; do have charter concerns
  333. # [18:25] <Lachy> so the real question is, does Microsoft have patents that they do not want to give up, but which they would be forced to if canvas were included?
  334. # [18:25] <oedipus> ChrisW: yes, can answer question
  335. # [18:25] <oedipus> AaronL: not likely to have opinion now
  336. # [18:25] <rubys> oedipus: I said I CAN answer within a week
  337. # [18:25] <DanC> trackbot-ng,
  338. # [18:26] <DanC> trackbot-ng, status
  339. # [18:26] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
  340. # [18:26] <ChrisWilson> Lachy, without having a charter that scopes the WG's specifications, I can't know the answer to that question.
  341. # [18:26] <DanC> ACTION: Dan consider informal survey on canvas tactics
  342. # [18:26] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  343. # [18:26] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-21 - Consider informal survey on canvas tactics [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-23].
  344. # [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 43
  345. # [18:26] <oedipus> SCRIBE'S NOTE: Sam Ruby CAN answer within a week
  346. # [18:26] * oedipus sorry samR
  347. # [18:26] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  348. # [18:26] <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC
  349. # [18:26] * DanC q?
  350. # [18:26] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  351. # [18:26] <DanC> ack danc
  352. # [18:26] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to suggest a survey with some options in parallel
  353. # [18:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  354. # [18:26] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  355. # [18:26] <Zakim> agendum 5. "ISSUE-14 aria-role Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5" taken up
  356. # [18:26] <ChrisWilson> With the charter we have now, our legal staff did not investigate our graphics patents.
  357. # [18:26] <oedipus> TOPIC: ISSUE 14 ARIA Role Integration
  358. # [18:27] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
  359. # [18:27] * rubys saw it
  360. # [18:27] <oedipus> DanC: action on URI extensibility -
  361. # [18:27] <DanC> some progress: http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/11/a_story_about_namespaces_mime.html
  362. # [18:27] <oedipus> AaronL: hard time figuring out what was being proposed
  363. # [18:27] <oedipus> DanC: specific questions?
  364. # [18:27] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, didn't the legal department look at the existing whatwg spec, so that they would have a better idea of what to look for, rather than relying on the vague charter?
  365. # [18:28] <DanC> http://norman.walsh.name/2007/11/12/implNamespaces
  366. # [18:28] <oedipus> AaronL: page to other links, couldn't ascertain what was DanC's contribution
  367. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> Lachy, the WHATWG spec is not our charter.
  368. # [18:28] <hsivonen> q+ to talk about Norm Walsh's blog post
  369. # [18:28] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  370. # [18:28] * Joins: aroben (aroben@17.203.12.72)
  371. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> Nor has the WHATWG spec been stable in that time frame.
  372. # [18:28] <rubys> concrete charters tend to trump draft specs
  373. # [18:28] <oedipus> AaronL: summary, please?
  374. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> (i.e. not added features)
  375. # [18:28] * DanC q?
  376. # [18:28] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  377. # [18:29] <oedipus> DanC: let WG members read at leisure; may do more work on page to make clearer
  378. # [18:29] <DanC> ack hsivonen
  379. # [18:29] <Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to talk about Norm Walsh's blog post
  380. # [18:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  381. # [18:29] * Joins: ArneJ (Snak@87.186.111.230)
  382. # [18:29] <oedipus> Henri: NormW's post suggests implicit namespaces in parser; considering constraints of aria- proposal don't think what NormW wrote satisfies requirements; can't do something to make DOM APIs act differently
  383. # [18:29] <oedipus> DanC: can if want to
  384. # [18:30] <oedipus> Henri: then introduce discrepancy in DOM scripting; changes way XML is parsed to infer namespaces from content-type deeper change than previously proposed; want not to afftect DOM API scripting -- examine RDF
  385. # [18:30] <oedipus> DanC: couple of steps ahead of me -- good feedback
  386. # [18:31] <oedipus> AaronL: will speak with Henri offline
  387. # [18:31] <oedipus> DanC: cost to changing APIs -- still thinking through
  388. # [18:31] * DanC q?
  389. # [18:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  390. # [18:32] <oedipus> scribe's note: DanC and MichaelC's actions continued
  391. # [18:32] <oedipus> DanC: next telecon not until 2 weeks
  392. # [18:33] <oedipus> AaronL: clarity always welcome; asked Doug Schepers and Bill for date by which they will decide aria- ; told me tied to other issues and gave no date
  393. # [18:33] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.175) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  394. # [18:33] <DanC> q+ to ask for a test pointer
  395. # [18:33] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  396. # [18:33] <hsivonen> s/examine RDF/could define a URI mapping for apps that need it for GRDDL to RDF mapping without affecting the DOM/
  397. # [18:33] <oedipus> GJR: PF yesterday discussed what next steps can take to further discussion
  398. # [18:34] <DanC> good tests? http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/
  399. # [18:34] <DanC> <div aria="something">
  400. # [18:35] <DanC> http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/role/
  401. # [18:35] <anne> s/something/checkbox/
  402. # [18:35] <oedipus> AaronL: SVG does not want to change "role" to "aria"
  403. # [18:35] <aaronlev> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/new/checkbox
  404. # [18:35] <anne> http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/states/001.htm
  405. # [18:36] <oedipus> http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests
  406. # [18:36] <hsivonen> DanC, it is about <div role='checkbox'> or <div aria='checkbox'>
  407. # [18:36] <aaronlev> s/SVG does/I do
  408. # [18:36] <oedipus> GJR: comparative tests needed?
  409. # [18:36] <oedipus> DanC: yes
  410. # [18:36] * Joins: hober (ted@68.107.112.172)
  411. # [18:36] <oedipus> GJR: will communicate back to PF
  412. # [18:37] <oedipus> AaronL: like tests with role="checkbox"
  413. # [18:37] <DanC> DanC: thanks; I'll study http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/states/001.htm and http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/new/checkbox
  414. # [18:37] <oedipus> UIUC ARIA Tests: http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/
  415. # [18:38] <DanC> s/SVG does not want/I do not want/
  416. # [18:38] <oedipus> AaronL: clarifies -- not SVG WG, but my impression of what SVG is saying
  417. # [18:38] <DanC> aaronlev: I don't recommend the UIUC tests
  418. # [18:38] <hsivonen> DanC, did you mean test cases or proposed syntax examples?
  419. # [18:39] <oedipus> GJR: need comparative tests of single concept using diff markup proposals
  420. # [18:39] <DanC> I tend to call them tests; sorry if that's confusing
  421. # [18:39] <oedipus> AaronL: don't think there is controversy save for attribute name "role" and "aria"
  422. # [18:39] <oedipus> DanC: would like comparative tests
  423. # [18:40] <Hixie> DanC: i can't answer the canvas question. I strongly feel that a canvas API is already in scope, and I strongly object to reopening the charter rathole. But the question asks whether I think it is in scope and says that a "yes" answer reopens the rathole.
  424. # [18:40] <oedipus> ACTION GJR: coordinate comparative tests using competing ARIA proposals
  425. # [18:40] * RRSAgent records action 44
  426. # [18:41] * DanC q?
  427. # [18:41] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  428. # [18:41] <DanC> ack danc
  429. # [18:41] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask for a test pointer
  430. # [18:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  431. # [18:41] * Quits: marcospod (root@124.171.166.8) (Ping timeout)
  432. # [18:41] <oedipus> DanC: AlG promised that test materials used at HTML f2f would be given stable URIs
  433. # [18:41] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  434. # [18:41] <Zakim> agendum 6. "ISSUE-16 offline-applications-sql offline applications and data synchronization" taken up [from DanC]
  435. # [18:41] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/16
  436. # [18:41] <oedipus> GJR: will follow up with PF test suite builders/maintainers
  437. # [18:42] <DanC> http://dev.w3.org/html5/offline-webapps/ Editor's Draft 11 November 2007
  438. # [18:42] <oedipus> Anne action completed with editor's draft of 11 november
  439. # [18:42] <oedipus> ChrisW: not seen yet
  440. # [18:42] <oedipus> DanC: good to have the document ready; like a few more keywords in abstract: caching, SQL
  441. # [18:42] <oedipus> Anne: can add -- pretty clear, i think
  442. # [18:43] <oedipus> DanC: suggests using ToC to populate abstract
  443. # [18:43] <oedipus> SamR: plan to review
  444. # [18:44] <oedipus> DanC: page and a half
  445. # [18:44] <oedipus> SamR: will review this weekend
  446. # [18:45] <oedipus> ACTION: SamRuby review oflline-webapps by monday, 19 november 2007
  447. # [18:45] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  448. # [18:45] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - SamRuby
  449. # [18:45] * RRSAgent records action 45
  450. # [18:45] <DanC> trackbot-ng, status
  451. # [18:45] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
  452. # [18:45] <oedipus> ACTION: Julian review offline-webapps by monday, 19 november 2007
  453. # [18:45] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  454. # [18:45] * RRSAgent records action 46
  455. # [18:45] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-22 - Review offline-webapps by monday, 19 november 2007 [on Julian Reschke - due 2007-11-23].
  456. # [18:46] <oedipus> ChrisW: don't have an opinion; from another perspective, offline and SQL not in charter
  457. # [18:46] <oedipus> DanC: publication a natural way to start conversation; Anne, thinking of note or working draft?
  458. # [18:46] <oedipus> Anne: note
  459. # [18:46] <oedipus> DanC: inclined to publish in a few weeks
  460. # [18:47] <oedipus> Anne: reasonable
  461. # [18:47] * DanC q?
  462. # [18:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  463. # [18:47] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  464. # [18:47] <Zakim> agendum 7. "face-to-face meeting 8-10 November, review" taken up [from DanC]
  465. # [18:47] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 8
  466. # [18:47] <Zakim> agendum 8. "outcome of HTML for authors session" taken up [from DanC]
  467. # [18:47] <oedipus> TOPIC: Outcome of HTML for Authors' Session
  468. # [18:47] <oedipus> DanC: record of session?
  469. # [18:48] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html
  470. # [18:48] * Parts: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  471. # [18:48] * oedipus thanks henri
  472. # [18:48] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  473. # [18:48] <mjs> our charter does in fact contain "Data storage APIs"
  474. # [18:48] <oedipus> DanC: is it an accurate/reasonable catch of what transpired?
  475. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> ..."if the WebAPI WG fails to deliver."
  476. # [18:49] <oedipus> DanC: 2 actions noted in minutes
  477. # [18:49] <DanC> 1 is a dup
  478. # [18:50] <DanC> ah... it's ACTION-5 by tracker
  479. # [18:50] <Hixie> the webapi wg has failed to deliver their own deliverables, let alone ours
  480. # [18:50] <oedipus> Henri: not sure if reached some kind of agreement; no consensus on best practices --
  481. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> Have they stated that to the W3C staff?
  482. # [18:50] <oedipus> DanC: read not a call to create task force, but a proposal via email from KarlD
  483. # [18:50] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: yes
  484. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> Can you send a pointer?
  485. # [18:51] <oedipus> DanC: moves to adjourn
  486. # [18:51] <oedipus> scribe's note: NO dissent
  487. # [18:51] <oedipus> Henri: plan on staying around to check records
  488. # [18:51] <oedipus> ChrisW: seconds motion to adjourn
  489. # [18:51] <DanC> ADJOURN.
  490. # [18:51] <hsivonen> not to stay around
  491. # [18:51] <Zakim> -JulianR
  492. # [18:51] <Zakim> -hsivonen
  493. # [18:52] <Zakim> -aaronlev
  494. # [18:52] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.102.228) (Quit: Leaving...)
  495. # [18:52] <oedipus> s/staying around/not staying around
  496. # [18:52] <Zakim> -Sam
  497. # [18:52] <oedipus> SamR: please don't add to issue tracking just yet -- shortly
  498. # [18:52] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  499. # [18:52] <Hixie> ChrisWilson, look at any status e-mail in hcg
  500. # [18:53] * oedipus asks chairs if he should push the minutes
  501. # [18:53] * oedipus also asks chairs if he should dismiss Zakim
  502. # [18:53] <anne> Yeah, it's pretty clear that the Web API WG has not enough volunteers to edit
  503. # [18:53] <ChrisWilson> oedipus, yes and yes.
  504. # [18:53] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  505. # [18:53] <oedipus> thanks ChrisW -- anne, i am joining WebAPI
  506. # [18:53] <oedipus> zakim, please part
  507. # [18:53] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were JulianR, Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, hsivonen, Sam, ChrisWilson, anne, aaronlev
  508. # [18:53] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  509. # [18:53] <ChrisWilson> It's pretty clear we suffer from the same problem.
  510. # [18:54] <anne> it seems that Hixie is doing just fine
  511. # [18:54] <anne> to me, anyway
  512. # [18:54] <oedipus> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
  513. # [18:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, oedipus
  514. # [18:54] <oedipus> rrsagent, create minutes
  515. # [18:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  516. # [18:54] <oedipus> rrsagent, format minutes
  517. # [18:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  518. # [18:54] * Quits: ArneJ (Snak@87.186.111.230) (Quit: ArneJ)
  519. # [18:54] <anne> ChrisWilson, could you perhaps e-mail the list with what you consider to be out of scope?
  520. # [18:55] <ChrisWilson> ? Anything not captured in the charter?
  521. # [18:55] * anne thought it was just <canvas> until a few minutes ago
  522. # [18:55] <oedipus> chair: Dan_Connolly
  523. # [18:55] <oedipus> rrsagent, create minutes
  524. # [18:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  525. # [18:55] <oedipus> rrsagent, format minutes
  526. # [18:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  527. # [18:55] <anne> ChrisWilson, basically, yeah
  528. # [18:55] <oedipus> chair+ Dan_Connolly
  529. # [18:55] <oedipus> rrsagent, create minutes
  530. # [18:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  531. # [18:55] <oedipus> rrsagent, format minutes
  532. # [18:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  533. # [18:56] <DanC> chair: DanC
  534. # [18:56] * oedipus already there, DanC
  535. # [18:56] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  536. # [18:56] <oedipus> any regrets received?
  537. # [18:56] <DanC> Regrets+ mikko
  538. # [18:56] <DanC> (I think)
  539. # [18:56] * oedipus thanks DanC
  540. # [18:56] <oedipus> rrsagent, create minutes
  541. # [18:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  542. # [18:56] * Parts: anne (annevk@86.90.70.28)
  543. # [18:56] <oedipus> rrsagent, format minutes
  544. # [18:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  545. # [18:57] <oedipus> regrets+ mikko
  546. # [18:57] <oedipus> rrsagent, create minutes
  547. # [18:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  548. # [18:57] <Hixie> ChrisWilson, as far as i am aware, everything in the spec if well covered by our charter.
  549. # [18:57] <Hixie> ChrisWilson, after all, the charter was written mostly after teh spec, and with the spec in mind.
  550. # [18:57] <DanC> oedipus, there's bunch of irrelevant stuff at the top, but you don't have write access to /2007/11 ... perhaps you could (a) take a copy of 16-html-wg-minutes.html , edit it manually, and mail it to me and www-archive ?
  551. # [18:58] <oedipus> yes, i can do that
  552. # [18:58] <DanC> thanks
  553. # [18:58] <Hixie> ChrisWilson, also, if you think hyatt and i aren't editing fast enough, it would be helpful to know what you think should be being edited faster
  554. # [18:58] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.106.25) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  555. # [18:58] <oedipus> will get it to you and www-archive asap
  556. # [18:58] <DanC> Hixie, please consider the charter from the perspective of someone wholly unfamiliar with HTML 5. e.g. a patent laywer at VendorCo
  557. # [18:59] <Hixie> DanC, first, we do, and second, the only person complaining is microsoft, and they aren't "someone wholly unfamiliar with HTML 5"
  558. # [18:59] <Hixie> DanC, they are in fact intimiately aware that html5 exists and is why this group was created.
  559. # [18:59] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  560. # [18:59] <DanC> no, microsoft is not the only person complaining; they're the only one nice enough to do it on the public record
  561. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> Hixie, from a quick glance through the ToC, canvas and offline; session history and navigation; client-side storage (both types) unless the WebAPI WG fails to deliver; server-sent DOM events; and the connection interface are not in our charter.
  562. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> s/nice/foolish
  563. # [19:00] <oedipus> danC, how far down do you want me to snip - to "convene meeting"?
  564. # [19:00] <DanC> yes, down to convene
  565. # [19:00] <oedipus> ok
  566. # [19:00] <DanC> and fix the duplicate items in the TOC, if you would
  567. # [19:00] <oedipus> have done
  568. # [19:01] <DanC> good
  569. # [19:01] * oedipus not used to proper use of agenda tracking by chairs!
  570. # [19:01] <Hixie> ChrisWilson, wow, i didn't realise how desparate you were to try and slow down the group.
  571. # [19:01] * oedipus that's why i used TOPIC:
  572. # [19:01] <DanC> Hixie, cut it out
  573. # [19:01] <mjs> ChrisWilson, you have a unique way of reading the charter
  574. # [19:01] <ChrisWilson> I'll try not to take the comment literally or personally.
  575. # [19:01] <Hixie> oh please
  576. # [19:01] <Hixie> it's blatently obvious what chris is doing
  577. # [19:01] <Hixie> no-one in their right mind would claim session history wasn't under HTML5's purview
  578. # [19:01] <DanC> no, it's not, and it's rude of you to presume
  579. # [19:02] <ChrisWilson> Hixie, why should it matter? You will continue to create your HTML 5 standard in the WHATWG; and it will continue to ignore patents and IPR.
  580. # [19:02] <ChrisWilson> s/should it matter/should it matter to you/
  581. # [19:02] * DanC goes afk
  582. # [19:03] <Hixie> ChrisWilson, we specifically came here to w3c to allow the spec to be covered by the patent policy for you
  583. # [19:03] <Hixie> ChrisWilson, and now you're claiming you don't think the spec is covered by the charter.
  584. # [19:04] <Hixie> ChrisWilson, what can we do going forward to make sure the spec isn't pared down, is published soon, and is published with your participation?
  585. # [19:04] <ChrisWilson> One moment.
  586. # [19:04] <oedipus> danC, should i trim the "diagnostics" section?
  587. # [19:05] <oedipus> the question of whether the spec should be pared down is a decision for the WG to make, not a unilateral decision by the editors
  588. # [19:05] <ChrisWilson> Hixie: in a company with a large patent portfolio, getting approval to allow RF licensing of IP requires knowing what you're signing up to.
  589. # [19:06] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189) (Ping timeout)
  590. # [19:06] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: sure, that's why when we originally proposed the scope we made it explicit. the w3c staff cut it down saying that it was being redundant.
  591. # [19:06] <ChrisWilson> That means the charter has to cover exactly what areas are going to be in the spec, because comparing a 500-page specification against [large company]'s entire patent portfolio is not an easy thing to do.
  592. # [19:06] <oedipus> hixie, isn't the point of editing to make things as clear as possible? that entails clarifications and such that may lead to "paring" in one place and "growth" in another...
  593. # [19:07] <ChrisWilson> Then let
  594. # [19:07] <ChrisWilson> erk
  595. # [19:07] <Hixie> oedipus: (i just meant removing entire sections, i agree that editing work includes making things clearer.)
  596. # [19:08] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189)
  597. # [19:09] <ChrisWilson> Then let's scope out what the charter SHOULD be, and get the charter changed to reflect that. More to the point, I think there should be separate groups handling some of these items; I agree, fwiw, that session history and navigation might belong here, but I don't honestly think connections do. I believe they belong in the webapi group.
  598. # [19:10] <ChrisWilson> At any rate, it's irresponsible of me to agree to a spec that I don't think our IP reviewers were covering.
  599. # [19:10] <ChrisWilson> I understand, for example, (because at least you and Maciej have repeatedly said) that the Canvas API is a fairly stable bit of the WHAT WG HTML5 spec.
  600. # [19:12] <ChrisWilson> I understand anyone's ability to get you to change that API is basically zero at this point (aside from the one or two minor points you mentioned as being in flux). That doesn't mean that I can blithely say "I'm sure we wouldn't mind giving up IP in that area" without what IP we have there being reviewed.
  601. # [19:12] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: what can we do to publish _soon_, though? rechartering takes easily 6 months which is simply not an option for us.
  602. # [19:12] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: i'd like to know what we can to publish the current spec soon, with your participation
  603. # [19:13] <ChrisWilson> Publish all of the current HTML5 spec, with Microsoft's participation? I don't know. I'm not sure it will be possible; it will depend on the patent review I'm kicking off right now with our legal team to look at the areas I mentioned above that I don't think are in the spec.
  604. # [19:13] <ChrisWilson> s/spec/charter
  605. # [19:14] <ChrisWilson> If that review is taking more than 90 days, or if it turns up areas of concern to the IP owners, then I would have to depart the WG, because that's the only option left. That's one of the reasons why RF WGs are best off not trying to bite off the entire world.
  606. # [19:15] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: wow, so there is the chance that microsoft would rather leave the group than license patents?
  607. # [19:15] <ChrisWilson> I understand you all think this is me being obstructionist, and that's unfortunate. I have to work within the system of a corporation with a large patent portfolio, and that means being responsible with their IP.
  608. # [19:15] <ChrisWilson> No, that's not it.
  609. # [19:16] <smedero> I'm a little confused as common-man involved in this process. The <canvas> element is about three years old... though I don't know the exact date it made it into the WHATWG HTML5 sepc.
  610. # [19:16] <Hixie> smedero: i'm pretty confused myself :-)
  611. # [19:16] <ChrisWilson> It's not "license patents". It's that what you are asking for is a open-ended "whatever patents might cover technology we think is handy to shove into the HTML5 spec."
  612. # [19:16] <oedipus> DanC and ChrisW: cleaned minutes attached to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0053.html
  613. # [19:16] <smedero> It seems clear that the patent issues were going to be a problem... that's completely reasonable.
  614. # [19:16] <oedipus> cleaned minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/att-0053/2007-11-16-html-wg-minutes-cleaned.html
  615. # [19:16] <smedero> It just feels like this issue should have been reviewed much sooner in this process.
  616. # [19:17] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: the html5 spec at this point is past feature freeze, so there won't be any new things that can be covered by patents.
  617. # [19:17] <ChrisWilson> Indeed. My apologies. I have a couple of day jobs too.
  618. # [19:17] <ChrisWilson> Really? Do you believe that every area that is going in to HTML5 from the WHATWG side is already there, and if we capture everything that's in there today into our charter to my satisfaction, that's not going to change?
  619. # [19:17] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: so anyway you are saying there is no way to publish the current spec soon with your participation? that it's either publish later, publish without you, or publish something smaller?
  620. # [19:18] <ChrisWilson> (That's a serious question)
  621. # [19:18] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: yes, as far as i'm concerned we're in feature freeze, i don't expect any new features to be added before CR.
  622. # [19:18] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: (there's no "whatwg side" to this, btw)
  623. # [19:18] <oedipus> ChrisW and DanC: just found another regret notification: Marcin Hanclik's regrets: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0052.html
  624. # [19:19] <ChrisWilson> The best possible case is that I take the current spec, categorize the areas, pass it back to legal for review, and the owners of the patents they turn up are all okay with RF-licensing that IP to the W3C for HTML5.
  625. # [19:19] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: obviously if microsoft has anything they'd like added they would be considered, since that would presumably sidestep the patent problem, and we want to make microsoft happy with the spec.
  626. # [19:19] <ChrisWilson> So, to echo one of my ultimate bosses' most unfortunate statements, that depends on your definition of soon.
  627. # [19:19] <ChrisWilson> I don't think we have anything that we've been holding on to, no.
  628. # [19:20] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: by "soon" i meant this week
  629. # [19:20] <Hixie> well, next week i guess
  630. # [19:20] <Hixie> what with it being friday
  631. # [19:21] <oedipus> ChrisW: for what it is worth, i don't think you're being obstructionist -- your being realistic and practical, something that most of us in spec writing don't necessarily need be...
  632. # [19:21] <ChrisWilson> Then that's possible - I told Dan last week I am explicitly removing myself from any decision-making around this - but that is running the risk I listed above, that the expanded patent review won't finish and Microsoft would have to depart prior to the 90-day countdown.
  633. # [19:22] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: aah, interesting.
  634. # [19:22] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: well that makes sense
  635. # [19:22] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: that's the same risk google would take too
  636. # [19:23] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: seems like that's the best course then
  637. # [19:23] <Hixie> it sidesteps the whole charter can of worms
  638. # [19:23] <ChrisWilson> What's the same risk Google would take?
  639. # [19:24] <Hixie> that our patent review wouldn't be complete in 90 days
  640. # [19:26] <ChrisWilson> The part that is frustrating is that ideally, if you create a clear enough charter, then you don't need to do a patent review every time a new document is issued by the WG; you do a review before joining the group, and then you know what is at stake.
  641. # [19:26] <Hixie> i agree
  642. # [19:26] <Hixie> like i said, the original scope list that i and others proposed for html5 was very detailed
  643. # [19:26] <ChrisWilson> If I have to go through a whole legal review every time there is a new document in a WG, I'm going to have to quit so I don't slit my wrists.
  644. # [19:26] <Hixie> and explicitly covered all these things
  645. # [19:26] <Hixie> w3c staff said that the list had too much redundancy and made it smaller, as i recall
  646. # [19:27] <Hixie> not sure why
  647. # [19:27] <ChrisWilson> Hmm. Nor am I; I was not involved in developing the charter at all, actually.
  648. # [19:27] <ChrisWilson> (other than the voting at the AC level, where I advised)
  649. # [19:27] <Hixie> yeah they didn't even contact me until someone pointed out to them that maybe they should at least consult the guy who'd edited the html5 spec for the past few years
  650. # [19:28] <Hixie> and even then they only unofficially asked for my advice
  651. # [19:28] <mjs> Apple's legal review may be hard to complete in 90 days as well, but I would still prefer to just publish and start the clock
  652. # [19:28] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/author.html#msg56 is where i sent the feedback i had
  653. # [19:29] <Hixie> look in particular at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/0045.html
  654. # [19:30] <Hixie> afk, bbiab
  655. # [19:31] <mjs> I'm not sure it's possible to predict all applicable patents short of an actual draft anyway
  656. # [19:31] <mjs> that's why FPWD and LC are what starts the review clock
  657. # [19:31] * Joins: anne (annevk@86.90.70.28)
  658. # [19:32] <ChrisWilson> That may be true - but we should at least know what areas are going to be covered. And I disagree with the scope of the charter Ian pointed to (0045) for this group.
  659. # [19:32] <ChrisWilson> I don't understand, btw, why the presumption that WebAPI has failed/is failing.
  660. # [19:33] <mjs> I don't think they have failed at everything, but they (we) certainly haven't delivered all their original charter deliverables
  661. # [19:34] <ChrisWilson> why not?
  662. # [19:34] <anne> no dedicated editors
  663. # [19:35] <anne> editing specs these days is much harder than it was before (if you look at the amount of detail of HTML 5 versus HTML 4 for instance)
  664. # [19:35] <mjs> nor have they even started on any kind of data storage API, nor does that seem likely to happen any time soon
  665. # [19:35] <anne> it's like writing an implementation in English
  666. # [19:36] <ChrisWilson> See, I don't get that. There's one in current HTML5; you guys are on that group too; why do you not just take that spec, move it into that group, get buyoff, stamp it and move on?
  667. # [19:36] <ChrisWilson> anne: ?
  668. # [19:37] <mjs> splitting specs is not easy
  669. # [19:37] <ChrisWilson> It seems like it's useful outside the context of HTML, and moving it into a group like that would make it quicker, not slower.
  670. # [19:37] <mjs> so far XMLHttpRequest has semi-succeeded
  671. # [19:37] <anne> i'm already editing cross-site requests, xhr 1 and 2, and several drafts for the HTML WG, besides QA work I do for Opera and trying to keep up with everything relevant
  672. # [19:37] <mjs> (though Microsoft's rep still objects to the remaining HTML dependencies)
  673. # [19:37] <mjs> and Window kind of failed
  674. # [19:37] <ChrisWilson> I understand breaking up HTML5 into, say, separate "tabular data" and "media elements" specs would be hard.
  675. # [19:37] <mjs> (due to lack of my time)
  676. # [19:37] <anne> i think i'm one of the few in the Web API WG who actually manages to produce stuff
  677. # [19:38] <mjs> I think lots of stuff would be better if split off in principle but I don't want to let the perfect be the enemy of the good
  678. # [19:38] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  679. # [19:39] <ChrisWilson> But it seems like taking the two client-side storage sections and making them a separate spec would make it easier to focus on. Not to mention use them outside of HTML.
  680. # [19:40] <mjs> in theory, yes
  681. # [19:40] <mjs> in practice, I'm not aware of a qualified and available editor
  682. # [19:40] <ChrisWilson> For what? Client-side storage?
  683. # [19:41] <ChrisWilson> afk
  684. # [19:43] <Philip> DanC: You said "There aren't any votes yet" 12 minutes ago, but I currently see 16 votes
  685. # [19:44] <hober> As one of those 16 voters, I'm all for withdrawing & rewording the question to take into account the feedback on it
  686. # [19:47] <anne> unless someone can point out volunteers this is really a theoretical question imo
  687. # [19:48] <gsnedders> DanC: <http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/> claims it isn't open yet for me
  688. # [19:49] <anne> i guess it will be rephrased
  689. # [19:50] <gsnedders> maybe I didn't go all the way back to where I left, then
  690. # [19:52] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  691. # [20:07] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: there are a number of sections (setTimeout, Window, XHR, alt stylesheets OM) that have been taken out of HTML5. Only one of them (XHR) has so far managed to get any real traction.
  692. # [20:07] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: so much so that i had to pull window back into HTML5 because I had dependencies that were falling by the wayside because of the issue
  693. # [20:08] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: setTimeout and the alt stylesheets OM are tiny bits that wouldn't even take much editing time -- if we could find someone to edit those, then we could consider taking out the much bigger and more important bits out
  694. # [20:09] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: but if we can't even find competent editors with enough time to edit those tiny bits, i would consider it irresponsible of us to take out the other bits and just throw them over the wall and hope for an editor, especially considering that the sections in question are amongst those sections that browser vendors have indicated are the most critical to html5's success
  695. # [20:11] <Hixie> bbiab, going to work
  696. # [20:14] <DanC> mjs, 20 minutes turned out to take longer... could you pick a time later this afternoon?
  697. # [20:14] <DanC> 16 votes? hmm...
  698. # [20:14] <DanC> "No answer has been received." -- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/results
  699. # [20:15] <Philip> "16 answers have been received."
  700. # [20:15] <Philip> Cached?
  701. # [20:15] <hober> I see "3 answers have been received." must be cache
  702. # [20:16] <hober> shift-reload: 16
  703. # [20:16] <DanC> ah. shift-reload
  704. # [20:17] <DanC> "Future questions should avoid conflating distinct issues." indeed. this one should too
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  714. # [21:26] <kingryan> is http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/ closed for editing?
  715. # [21:28] <gsnedders> yeah
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  721. # [21:49] <DanC> yes, closed for editing... I'm getting back to that now...
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  723. # [21:50] <mjs> DanC: I'll be around this afternoon some
  724. # [21:54] <DanC> ok... do you have a sense of how many questions yet?
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  727. # [22:05] <mjs> how many questions for what?
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  734. # [22:37] <DanC> oops; hi mjs. can you see http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tactics-gapi-canvas/ ? prolly not
  735. # [22:39] <DanC> ok... I moved the charter stuff from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/ to the tactics survey
  736. # [22:39] <DanC> mjs? kingryan ? Hixie ? anybody around to take a look?
  737. # [22:39] * kingryan can see it
  738. # [22:40] * oedipus can hear it
  739. # [22:43] <DanC> any opinions?
  740. # [22:43] <DanC> i.e. is it coherent?
  741. # [22:43] * gsnedders looks
  742. # [22:43] <DanC> rather: are the 2 surveys coherent?
  743. # [22:43] <hober> It's not clear what question 2 in the tactics survey implies re: HTML 5 spec
  744. # [22:44] <gsnedders> hober: agreed
  745. # [22:44] <kingryan> concur
  746. # [22:44] * Philip guesses that it's best to keep 3D canvas discussion well away from public-html for now :-)
  747. # [22:44] <kingryan> DanC: is it implying that canvas be extracted into a separate document?
  748. # [22:44] <gsnedders> DanC: for question five can we just use Yes/No?
  749. # [22:45] <DanC> this one is unclear? "2. Canvas and immediate mode graphics API introductory/tutorial note"
  750. # [22:45] <gsnedders> DanC: yeah
  751. # [22:45] <oedipus> DanC: Should CANVAS and immediate mode graphics be spun off into a note, similar to Offline Web Applications? That is: a sort of extended abstract that might grow into a tutorial.
  752. # [22:45] * DanC is confused
  753. # [22:45] <hober> For instance, I'd like to answer: "keep <canvas> in the html5 spec, don't recharter. additional documents (tutorials, etc.) are fine if someone wants to work on them."
  754. # [22:45] <gsnedders> DanC: also, regarding "charter a new W3C working group for the 2d graphics API" — Opera has experimental 3D support now
  755. # [22:45] <DanC> spun off? no; the design would stay where it is
  756. # [22:46] <Philip> (Mozilla has more advanced experiemental 3D support too)
  757. # [22:46] <Philip> s/e//
  758. # [22:46] <oedipus> DanC: Should CANVAS and immediate mode graphics be released first in the form of a note, similar to Offline Web Applications? That is: a sort of extended abstract that might grow into a tutorial.
  759. # [22:47] <DanC> reload; I changed it to: "How about a note to supplement the detailed specification, similar to ..."
  760. # [22:47] <oedipus> sounds fine to me
  761. # [22:48] <DanC> what would yes and no mean for question 5? I want information on preferences as well as what people find acceptable
  762. # [22:48] <hober> I'd like a "no opinion" option on 2, although I suppose simply not answering conveys that...
  763. # [22:48] <DanC> right; you can just not click any of the options...
  764. # [22:48] <DanC> ... though once you click one of them, you're kinda stuck
  765. # [22:49] <oedipus> that sounds like reason enough to add "no opinion" as an option
  766. # [22:49] * jgraham is happy the first questionnaire is in line with his original misreading of the implications
  767. # [22:50] <jgraham> Q2. on the second one is a bit brief
  768. # [22:50] <jgraham> s/second/tactics/
  769. # [22:51] <jgraham> Maybe s/How about/Should the Working Group produce/
  770. # [22:51] <Lachy> 3d canvas could probably be done in webapi
  771. # [22:51] * DanC finds "q2" references hard to follow; pls use a keyword or two when referring to questions; call it the tutorial question rather than q2
  772. # [22:52] <DanC> yes, "How about" is overly colloquial; fixed
  773. # [22:55] * DanC tweaks "5. Where should work ..." question text
  774. # [22:55] <DanC> I'm pretty happy with it now
  775. # [22:57] <Philip> s/XMLHTTPRequest/XMLHttpRequest/
  776. # [22:58] * DanC isn't inclined to bother with that
  777. # [22:58] * DanC tries mjs by cell; loses. hmm.
  778. # [23:02] * Joins: hasather (hasather@90.231.107.133)
  779. # [23:03] <DanC> ok, I announced both of them, subject to change for a day
  780. # [23:04] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  781. # [23:05] <DanC> hmm... the requirement formal question doesn't have separate "no" and "formally object" options.
  782. # [23:11] <hober> which is the 'requirement formal question'?
  783. # [23:13] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/
  784. # [23:13] <DanC> anybody know where Hixie and/or mjs went?
  785. # [23:15] <hober> [11:10] <Hixie> bbiab, going to work
  786. # [23:16] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.220)
  787. # [23:18] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.220) (Quit: mjs)
  788. # [23:18] <DanC> ah. thanks, hober.
  789. # [23:21] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.220)
  790. # [23:21] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.220) (Quit: mjs)
  791. # [23:22] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.220)
  792. # [23:22] <Philip> DanC: Is it intentional that req-gapi-canvas/results shows 32 non-responders, while tactics- shows 489?
  793. # [23:23] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.220) (Quit: mjs)
  794. # [23:24] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.220)
  795. # [23:24] <Philip> Ah, looks like the difference between a response-represents-organisation and response-is-just-personal survey
  796. # [23:24] <DanC> yes
  797. # [23:25] <DanC> though the 32 is low due to a bug; it should could public invited experts, I think
  798. # [23:27] * Joins: timbl (timbl@209.6.134.246)
  799. # [23:29] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.220) (Connection reset by peer)
  800. # [23:34] * Quits: timbl (timbl@209.6.134.246) (Quit: timbl)
  801. # [23:34] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.106.25) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  802. # [23:35] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.106.25)
  803. # [23:40] * Joins: jgraham_ (james@81.86.209.13)
  804. # [23:43] <Philip> jgraham_: By "a highly-inoperable mechanism", did you mean "highly-interoperable"?
  805. # [23:44] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  806. # [23:47] * Joins: timbl (timbl@209.6.134.246)
  807. # [23:49] <jgraham_> Philip: Yeah, that would b a typo ;)
  808. # [23:49] * jgraham_ goes to change it
  809. # [23:49] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  810. # Session Close: Sat Nov 17 00:00:00 2007

The end :)