/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-20 / end

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  63. # [12:13] <anne> Julian, i'm confused by your latest e-mail
  64. # [12:14] <Julian> Hm. With what in particular?
  65. # [12:14] <anne> the first bullet point
  66. # [12:14] <anne> and the second as i already mentioned that this applies to Location too, for instance
  67. # [12:15] <Julian> 1) When my UA works around bugs in a malformed HTTP response, I'd like to know. Error console, Icon, whatever. Yes, optionally.
  68. # [12:16] <Julian> 2) Understood; but I think it's easier to discuss one concrete example. Of course there are similar problems with other headers. In particular, Content-Length is important.
  69. # [12:18] <anne> oh, you already mentioned 1) before
  70. # [12:18] <anne> ok
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  72. # [12:24] <anne> if you want to do more testing it's pretty trivial
  73. # [12:25] <anne> just create your own 80 line Python server and have it pass files through unchanged
  74. # [12:39] <Philip> anne: 80 lines is a bit excessive
  75. # [12:40] <Philip> while true; do expect -c 'set timeout -1; spawn netcat -l -p 8000; expect "GET"; sleep 1; send [read [open "test.html" r]]; sleep 1'; done
  76. # [12:40] <Philip> seems to work about as well
  77. # [12:47] <anne> nifty
  78. # [12:47] <anne> mine did have some more features though :)
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  88. # [15:29] <anne> euhm, http://blog.whatwg.org/microsyntax-descriptions is broken
  89. # [15:31] <hsivonen> hmm. fallout from the WP update I guess
  90. # [15:31] <hsivonen> Lachy: see above
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  93. # [16:01] <Lachy> anne, fixed it
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  106. # [17:08] * myakura wonders why the principles draft hasn't published yet
  107. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> myakura - because it's waiting on me to complete the publication request
  108. # [17:10] <myakura> ah
  109. # [17:11] <anne> MikeSmith, I can do that for you, if needed...
  110. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> anne - I think we also need to do a transition request for it
  111. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> meaning it needs to go to TimBL and chairs list
  112. # [17:16] <anne> ah, yes, FPWD is more tricky
  113. # [17:16] * anne forgot
  114. # [17:18] * MikeSmith is looking at the status section of the document now
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  120. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> anne - any suggestions on text we can add to the Status of This Document section to preemptively respond to questions of the type that Philip Taylor (Webmaster) sent?
  121. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> [[
  122. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0216.html> May I respectfully ask on what basis you (Dan C) have
  123. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> > therefore decided that 51 votes in favour represents
  124. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> > the consensus that is required before publication may
  125. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> > proceed ?
  126. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> ]]
  127. # [17:25] <zcorpan> DanC: you know some xslt, right?
  128. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> which response to above was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0216.html
  129. # [17:26] <zcorpan> (or someone else here?)
  130. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - DanC is in a meeting right nwo
  131. # [17:26] <zcorpan> k
  132. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> I know a little xslt
  133. # [17:26] <zcorpan> do you know how http://simon.html5.org/test/xml/xml-stylesheet/support/transform.xml can be modified such that the <title> survives the transformation?
  134. # [17:26] * MikeSmith looking now
  135. # [17:27] <myakura> MikeSmith: I've finished the translation btw. If the draft's gonna be published before friday, I can upload it and can blog about that.
  136. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> myakura - I plan to get it published before Friday
  137. # [17:28] <myakura> :)
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  139. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - where do you want the title contents displayed? in the <p>The XSLT was applied.</p> output?
  140. # [17:30] <anne> MikeSmith, why does that need to be included?
  141. # [17:31] <anne> He didn't really back up his arguments as far as I could tell
  142. # [17:32] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: in <head><title>
  143. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> anne - He incorrectly thought in order to publish we needed consensus and no formal objections on record
  144. # [17:32] <anne> he also claimed that 34 did not agree to publish
  145. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> I can imagine that others may think the same and might ask
  146. # [17:32] <anne> 34 people
  147. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know
  148. # [17:33] <Philip> 34 wasn't counting the hundreds of public invited experts
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  150. # [17:34] <anne> "There was no complete consensus within the HTML WG for publishing this document."
  151. # [17:34] <anne> Philip, what was it counting? the other number was 31 or so (number of people who did not reply, not who disagreed)
  152. # [17:34] <anne> MikeSmith: ^^
  153. # [17:36] <anne> i wonder how publishing this doc and not publishing the html 5 doc will reflect on the HTML WG
  154. # [17:36] <smedero> At the face to face meeting DanC said he was going to reach out to those who hadn't voted at all to make sure there were no serious objections...
  155. # [17:36] <Philip> anne: Hmm, I see 33 names on the survey's non-responders list
  156. # [17:37] <anne> k
  157. # [17:37] <anne> maybe that's it then
  158. # [17:38] <DanC> it's not just "no serious objections"; I needed to check for explicit support; I didn't get enough. So on Friday, Chris and I announced that the HTML 5 spec publication question didn't carry
  159. # [17:38] <DanC> oops; the minutes for that meeting are now overdue. :-/
  160. # [17:38] <DanC> GR did his part; I just need to announce them
  161. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - http://pastebin.com/mc91bcad
  162. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> lemme know if that is what you need
  163. # [17:40] <DanC> meanwhile, I made yet another chairing error in the canvas/immediate-mode-graphics requirement survey: I didn't give separate options for "no" and "formally object"
  164. # [17:40] <DanC> and I didn't specify a quorum
  165. # [17:40] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: thanks!
  166. # [17:40] <anne> someone told me that "formallly object" in a survey doesn't make sense
  167. # [17:40] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: hmm, doesn't seem to work though
  168. # [17:41] <anne> because you formally object to a resolution, not to a proposed resolution
  169. # [17:41] <DanC> no, you formally object to a proposed resolution. a formal objection is not an appeal mechanism
  170. # [17:41] <DanC> (this might be a bug in the process document)
  171. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - if you can send/paste a test document plus what your expected output is, I will try to make something that works
  172. # [17:43] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: test document: http://simon.html5.org/test/xml/xml-stylesheet/xslt/001.xml
  173. # [17:43] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the expected output is basically s/not//
  174. # [17:43] <zcorpan> and perhaps remove any script blocks in head
  175. # [17:43] <DanC> these process details are perhaps worth some discussion, but the main point is: we really need the W3C member organizations participating in the WG to put their position on canvas on record this week
  176. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - ah, in XHTML namespace
  177. # [17:44] <anne> it would be nice if they simply participated in the WG from the start
  178. # [17:44] <DanC> "simply"?
  179. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - will paste a tweaked version in a second
  180. # [17:44] <anne> instead of stalling the WG 6 months into the game
  181. # [17:44] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: thanks
  182. # [17:44] <DanC> what's simple about connecting a huge organization like IBM with a huge organization like the W3C HTML WG?
  183. # [17:44] <DanC> or nokia, etc.
  184. # [17:45] <DanC> another chairing error: the survey deadline is during a holiday. :-/
  185. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - http://pastebin.com/m1b5b7684
  186. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> that one should work even if your source HTML is not in XHTML namespace
  187. # [17:47] <anne> DanC, seems that Nokia and Boeing are ok
  188. # [17:47] <anne> and Google and Apple too
  189. # [17:48] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: thanks, that worked (at least in opera)
  190. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - cool. I feel now like I've actually accomplished something useful today :)
  191. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> so time for me to get some sleep
  192. # [17:49] <zcorpan> :)
  193. # [17:49] <anne> DanC, it's also not like HTML 5 is suddenly something new
  194. # [17:52] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  195. # [17:57] <DanC> yes, it is, to a lot of people, actually.
  196. # [17:57] <DanC> Nokia responded? cool.
  197. # [17:57] <DanC> I saw Boeing
  198. # [17:58] <DanC> I see Nokia among the non-responders in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/results ; am I missing something, Anne?
  199. # [17:58] * DanC has an appointment in 2 minutes, fyi...
  200. # [17:58] <Philip> DanC: Shift+reload :-)
  201. # [17:59] <DanC> I did shift-reload... I guess I'll do it again...
  202. # [17:59] <DanC> ah. cool.
  203. # [17:59] <anne> also, just doing this question for <canvas> doesn't help if Microsoft feels this applies to like 10 other features from HTML 5 too
  204. # [17:59] <DanC> excellent... consideration of performance on mobile platforms is now part of the decision record.
  205. # [18:00] <anne> unless we want to take a couple of weeks for each of those
  206. # [18:00] <anne> ...
  207. # [18:00] * anne notes that <canvas> works on Opera Mini :)
  208. # [18:00] <DanC> I think a couple weeks for each major new requirement is worthwhile; we can parallelize some of it.
  209. # [18:00] <Philip> anne: Not exactly with much animation or interactivity :-p
  210. # [18:00] <DanC> you have tested performance of canvas-based games in opera mini?
  211. # [18:01] <anne> Opera Mini doesn't do <canvas> games
  212. # [18:01] <Philip> Opera Mini didn't even support setInterval when I last tested it
  213. # [18:01] <anne> that would make sense
  214. # [18:01] <Philip> (setTimeout works as long as you do it quickly enough)
  215. # [18:01] * DanC wishes for tests that show "Opera Mini doesn't do <canvas> games" and "<canvas> works on Opera Mini"
  216. # [18:02] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189) (Ping timeout)
  217. # [18:02] <Philip> Opera Mini runs the normal Opera browser engine on a server somewhere, then sends a snapshot of the page to the client, so it's never going to do anything animated :-(
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  220. # [18:06] <anne> <canvas> sort of works on my iPod touch, but interactivity is difficult
  221. # [18:07] <anne> I guess it would help if you had something like EventTargetArea = context.createInteractityArea(x,y,w,h)
  222. # [18:08] <anne> so the device knew what would be interactive and all
  223. # [18:08] <anne> might also help with keyboard access
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  225. # [18:10] <Philip> DanC: http://www.operamini.com/demo/?url=http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.gradient.interpolate.multiple.html shows that static canvas works
  226. # [18:11] <Philip> (assuming it loads without timing out or having an error or anything like it normally does)
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  229. # [18:24] <Philip> DanC: http://www.operamini.com/demo/?url=http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/physics.html shows that interactive games don't work
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  232. # [18:51] <anne> Philip, you're going to make a <canvas> intro?
  233. # [18:51] * anne looks at the other survey results
  234. # [18:56] <Philip> anne: I only said I was interested, which doesn't imply being non-busy/non-lazy enough to necessarily do it
  235. # [19:18] * Philip wonders why My Opera links to RSS and Atom feeds for blogs, but only RSS for comment feeds
  236. # [19:20] <Philip> ... particularly since Opera's feed reader doesn't even parse My Opera's RSS feeds correctly (it gets confused by escaped HTML)
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  238. # [19:46] <gsnedders> <http://www.justsayhi.com/bb/html_quiz> — how many HTML elements can you name in 5 minutes?
  239. # [19:47] * gsnedders forgot a lot of obvious ones
  240. # [19:54] <Philip> 59 :-(
  241. # [19:56] <gsnedders> I got 52
  242. # [19:56] <gsnedders> spent too much time trying to name presentational elements, and forgot about obvious semantic ones because of it
  243. # [19:57] <zcorpan> 40 elements remain
  244. # [19:57] <beowulf> 43, i forgot the forms :(
  245. # [19:58] <zcorpan> when there were 10 seconds left i realised what i had forgotten
  246. # [19:58] <zcorpan> yeah, me too
  247. # [19:58] <smedero> 4 left and i can't think of what i'm missing. :(
  248. # [19:58] <beowulf> curse those html forms
  249. # [19:58] <gsnedders> smedero: forms? frames?
  250. # [19:58] <smedero> ran out of time.
  251. # [19:59] <smedero> heh: center, isindex, dfn, var
  252. # [19:59] <smedero> sigh
  253. # [19:59] <gsnedders> zcorpan: yeah, I realised what was forgotten too
  254. # [19:59] <zcorpan> good score though
  255. # [19:59] <zcorpan> smedero: but i got those ;)
  256. # [19:59] <gsnedders> ADDRESS, APPLET, AREA, BASE, BASEFONT, BDO, CAPTION, CITE, COL, COLGROUP, DEL, DFN, DIR, EM, FIELDSET, IFRAME, INS, ISINDEX, LEGEND, MAP, MENU, NOFRAMES, OPTGROUP, OPTION, PARAM, SELECT, STRIKE, STRONG, STYLE, TABLE, TBODY, TD, TEXTAREA, TFOOT, TH, THEAD, TR, TT, VAR is the "short" list of what I forgot
  257. # [19:59] <smedero> center!... how i missed that.
  258. # [19:59] * smedero shakes head
  259. # [19:59] <beowulf> if you score more than 45, you can joing the html-wg
  260. # [19:59] * beowulf submits resignation
  261. # [19:59] * gsnedders submits resignation
  262. # [20:00] <smedero> tehehe
  263. # [20:00] * zcorpan should do an html5 elements quiz
  264. # [20:00] <smedero> I had to look up isindex... i've honestly never come across that before.
  265. # [20:00] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.9/2007102514])
  266. # [20:01] <zcorpan> smedero: search for "isindex" (with quotes) in html5
  267. # [20:01] <Philip> Do an "element supported by browsers but not in HTML4" quiz
  268. # [20:01] <Philip> *elements
  269. # [20:01] <zcorpan> Philip: any browser ever?
  270. # [20:01] <gsnedders> <image>?
  271. # [20:01] <zcorpan> only html elements?
  272. # [20:02] <zcorpan> yeah, define "element"
  273. # [20:02] * gsnedders looks up quote of exam paper
  274. # [20:02] <Philip> When the question is ill-defined, people can't complain if the desired answers are wrong
  275. # [20:03] * Quits: jgraham_ (james@81.86.210.2) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  276. # [20:03] <zcorpan> any html tag/element that has been implemented by at least one browser or has been in at least one html draft
  277. # [20:04] * zcorpan should stop wasting time and go home to grab some food
  278. # [20:04] <gsnedders> http://www.sqa.org.uk/files_ccc/Computing_Higher_SQP.pdf — look at page 53 of the PDF
  279. # [20:07] <Philip> Do people still use WML?
  280. # [20:11] <gsnedders> I just did it again, and getting bored at the end I typed in the list of things I forgot before. Still missing 30 that I remembered last time :P
  281. # [20:11] <gsnedders> LOL@what I forgot this time
  282. # [20:11] <zcorpan> <html>? :)
  283. # [20:11] <gsnedders> abbr, acronym, body, h[1-6], script
  284. # [20:12] <gsnedders> zcorpan: sadly close!
  285. # [20:12] <gsnedders> ABBR, ACRONYM, BIG, BODY, BR, CENTER, CODE, DD, DIR, DIV, DL, DT, FONT, H1, H2, H3, H4, H5, H6, HR, INS, LABEL, LINK, META, NOSCRIPT, OBJECT, PRE, SCRIPT, SMALL, SPAN,
  286. # [20:12] <gsnedders> have to do it again after I've forgotten it all
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  298. # [22:08] * anne tries to register new HTTP headers
  299. # [22:09] * gsnedders watches anne fail
  300. # [22:11] <anne> we'll see how it goes
  301. # [22:11] <anne> i did the two week review period though I renamed a header and added one during that time
  302. # [22:13] * anne is amazed by the amount of discussion about the CSS homepage
  303. # [22:18] * Joins: jgraham_ (james@81.86.210.2)
  304. # [22:34] * Bert too. And worried, because afterwards it will be me who has to maintain the page...
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  309. # [22:57] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/0223.html is sad :(
  310. # [23:05] <Hixie> yeah i commented on that in #whatwg
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  319. # [23:18] <Hixie> someone should probably point out to the http group that the browsers need browser-specific error handling defined to help interop
  320. # [23:18] <Hixie> maybe they have a suggestion as to where we should define it
  321. # [23:19] <hober> in http5... :/
  322. # [23:19] <gsnedders> draft-sneddon-http-parsing? :P
  323. # [23:21] <Hixie> yeah
  324. # [23:22] <mjs> I'm sure http wg's rough consensus is movable w/ enough effort
  325. # [23:22] <gsnedders> I need more time to properly write it :(
  326. # [23:22] <mjs> right now I am more worried about ECMAScript, otherwise I would help out
  327. # [23:23] <Hixie> yeah, ecmascript seems more important
  328. # [23:23] <Hixie> http is less of an issue since they have decided not to add new features
  329. # [23:24] <Hixie> anything i can do to help with js?
  330. # [23:24] <mjs> I need to write up a proposal for compatibility
  331. # [23:24] <mjs> tentatively planning to do that today
  332. # [23:25] <mjs> would appreciate help fleshing out the details of the fancier block-oriented compatibility switch
  333. # [23:25] <Hixie> sure thing
  334. # [23:25] <Hixie> ping me when you start looking at it
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  341. # Session Close: Wed Nov 21 00:00:00 2007

The end :)