/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 23 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  13. # [02:32] <Lachy> I just checked in my initial proposal for HTML5 authoring guildelines http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
  14. # [02:32] <Lachy> I will mail the list shortly
  15. # [02:57] <Lachy> done
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  68. # [12:15] <anne> zcorpan, for <?access-control?> I need "the rules for parsing PIs with pseudo-attributes without parse errors" or something like that
  69. # [12:15] <anne> which either returns "error" or a list of pseudo-attributes
  70. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: are you sure you want to write authoring *guidelines* instead of a tutorial/reference for authors?
  71. # [12:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: if html4all is any indication, "guidelines" is a rathole keyword...
  72. # [12:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: since it puts you in competition with WGAC, mobile stuff, etc.
  73. # [12:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-November/000560.html
  74. # [12:33] <Lachy> hsivonen, I can call it whatever.
  75. # [12:33] <Lachy> the original name I had for it was HTML5 for Authors
  76. # [12:33] <Lachy> or maybe I could call it HTML5 Primer
  77. # [12:34] <hsivonen> Lachy: in my opinion, either of those is better than something that includes the word "guidelines"
  78. # [12:34] <hsivonen> Lachy: Primer would be consistent with the W3C nomenclature
  79. # [12:34] <Lachy> ok
  80. # [12:34] <anne> yeah
  81. # [12:35] <Philip> That makes me think of the Illustrated Primer
  82. # [12:35] <hsivonen> though HTML5 for Authors might be better if the aim is to be a broad reference work instead of an intro
  83. # [12:36] <Lachy> yeah
  84. # [12:38] * hsivonen notes that since W3C now tries to consider English as Second Language concerns, the word "primer" is not a great choice for anything
  85. # [12:38] <Lachy> why would english be considered second language?
  86. # [12:38] <hsivonen> I meant considering the issues people who read English as Second Language have
  87. # [12:39] <hsivonen> that is, people who don't have English as their native language
  88. # [12:39] <Lachy> fair enough
  89. # [12:39] <hsivonen> one of the things I learned at TPAC was the pronunciation of Primer
  90. # [12:40] * Lachy goes to subscribe to html4all just to keep track of their feedback
  91. # [12:40] <hsivonen> and I speak better English than many customer service people in the US...
  92. # [12:41] * Lachy wonders how it could be pronounced wrongly
  93. # [12:42] <hsivonen> Lachy: I would have pronounced ˈpraɪmər
  94. # [12:43] <hsivonen> Lachy: I didn't know it was ˈprimər
  95. # [12:43] * Philip wonders how those square box characters are pronounced
  96. # [12:44] <Philip> Oh, irc-logs has proper Unicode
  97. # [12:44] <Lachy> Philip, they're wild card characters. pronounce them however you like :-)
  98. # [12:45] <Philip> I'd pronounce it to rhyme with "rhymer", but have no idea what that is in IPA
  99. # [12:46] <Lachy> weird. My IRC client didn't even display placeholder characters. I just saw pramr and primr.
  100. # [12:47] <Philip> (I guess some people might say it like "reamer" but I don't think I've ever heard that)
  101. # [12:47] <Lachy> answers.com has audio pronuciations for it. Apparently it's pronounced differently depending on the meaning
  102. # [12:50] <Philip> The OED says: primer, n.1: Brit. Brit. /{sm}pr{revv}{shti}m{schwa}/, /{sm}pr{shti}m{schwa}/, U.S. /{sm}pr{shti}m{schwa}r/, /{sm}pra{shti}m{schwa}r/; in sense 2dBrit. /{sm}pr{shti}m{schwa}/, U.S. /{sm}pr{shti}m{schwa}r/, N.Z. /{sm}pr{shti}m{schwa}/ primer, n.2: Brit. /{sm}pr{revv}{shti}m{schwa}/, U.S. /{sm}pra{shti}m{schwa}r/
  103. # [12:50] <Philip> (The OED doesn't do Unicode...)
  104. # [12:51] <Philip> Oops - s/Brit. Brit./Brit./
  105. # [12:55] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like I have pronunciations set to US English IPA and it is a radio button pref so getting both US and UK at the same time is not supported
  106. # [12:56] <hsivonen> (Leopard New Oxford American Dictionary)
  107. # [12:58] * Philip is just using the oed.com web interface, which has a single button to toggle the pronunciation display
  108. # [12:59] <Lachy> the dictionary widget in dashboard only shows the first of the 2 definitions given in Dictionary.app
  109. # [13:00] <hsivonen> Dictionary.app also has a weird non-IPA US pronunciation option. I guess that's what they use in US print dictionaries
  110. # [13:00] <hsivonen> which is why I use UK print editions of print dictionaries
  111. # [13:01] <Lachy> I'll have to check my Australian dictionary when I get home, but I'm fairly sure we follow the UK english, cause US english is usually wrong with lots of spellings and pronunciations
  112. # [13:02] <hsivonen> anyway, my point is that Primer is not part of the vocabulary a non-native speaker tends to learn
  113. # [13:03] <Lachy> agreed. So HTML 5 for Authors it is, unless someone comes up with a better name between now and the time I get home to update it
  114. # [13:04] <Philip> Do authors know that "authors" means them, and doesn't mean e.g. people writing books?
  115. # [13:04] <hsivonen> good question. (I don't have an answer)
  116. # [13:05] <Philip> Maybe "Writing HTML 5" would be more obvious
  117. # [13:05] <Philip> though it doesn't sound a nice name to me
  118. # [13:05] <Lachy> maybe I should write the whole document using pictures and icons that everyone can understand regardless of language :-)
  119. # [13:06] <Philip> Copy the format of Why's (Poignant) Guide to Ruby
  120. # [13:06] <Lachy> Philip, URI?
  121. # [13:06] <Philip> http://poignantguide.net/
  122. # [13:12] <hsivonen> hrm. library code for dealing with percent escaping is too lenient for validation :-(
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  125. # [13:46] * Mike^dinner is now known as Mike
  126. # [13:47] <zcorpan> HTML5 for Web Developers
  127. # [13:49] <Mike> Lachy - for now can you please link the authors doc to http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-ED.css instead of http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-WD.css ?
  128. # [13:51] <Mike> anne or somebody - do you have a link to the URL for the CSS spec generator?
  129. # [13:51] * Mike has never actually used it
  130. # [13:51] <Mike> Is that something that Bert Bos created?
  131. # [13:51] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/bin/postprocess
  132. # [13:52] <Mike> zcorpan - thanks
  133. # [13:52] <zcorpan> np
  134. # [13:52] <Lachy> Mike, sure
  135. # [13:53] <Mike> Lachy - thanks
  136. # [13:53] <Mike> is there a command-line version of the spec generator?
  137. # [13:53] <Lachy> Mike, just use wget
  138. # [13:53] <Lachy> or curl
  139. # [13:54] <Mike> aye
  140. # [13:54] <Lachy> that's what I do. I just wrote a script to automatically send the right parameters and upload the file to the cgi script and save the result
  141. # [13:55] <Mike> yep, easy enough to do
  142. # [13:56] <Mike> maybe I'll write a general Makefile and put it in dev.w3.org somewhere
  143. # [13:59] <Bert> See http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/css3-background/ for an example Makefile
  144. # [14:04] <Mike> Bert - thanks. I wonder if the tool should be linked to on the pub tools page (URL for which I can't find right now)
  145. # [14:04] <Mike> anyway, bbl
  146. # [14:04] * Mike is now known as Mike^away
  147. # [14:07] <Bert> That's probably http://www.w3.org/2003/Editors/
  148. # [14:07] <Bert> Maintained by comm team... will send them an e-mail.
  149. # [14:08] <Lachy> Bert, could you link to a copy of that makefile from http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/bin/postprocess as well?
  150. # [14:09] <Bert> Good idea.
  151. # [14:10] <Bert> I'll also link the documentation from there.
  152. # [14:11] <Lachy> is there more documentation for it beyond the template already provided there?
  153. # [14:12] <Bert> There are two documents: http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/bin/README.html and http://www.w3.org/Style/spec-mark-up
  154. # [14:13] <Bert> The former is probably more complete, but focused on the CSS WG, the other is more an essay than a manual, but maybe eaiser to read.
  155. # [14:15] <Lachy> nice. Would have been good to know about those earlier
  156. # [14:21] <Bert> Sorry. But so far, all users that I know of have been members of the CSS WG and the doc was therefore linked only from the list of CSS deliverables...
  157. # [14:24] * Joins: timbl (timbl@209.6.134.246)
  158. # [14:25] * Lachy waves to timbl
  159. # [14:25] <anne> curl -u w3c-username:w3c-password -F file=@Overview.src.html -F group=none -F output=html -F method=file http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/process.cgi -o Overview.html
  160. # [14:25] <anne> takes Overview.src.html as input and writes to Overview.html as output
  161. # [14:25] <anne> works pretty well for me
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  165. # [15:12] <Philip> Lachy: Do you know what browsers need scripts hidden in comments?
  166. # [15:12] <zcorpan> isn't it Mosaic, NN1 and IE2?
  167. # [15:13] <Philip> Oh, Julian already pointed out that it's a fairly archaic practice nowadays
  168. # [15:13] <hendry> y
  169. # [15:14] <Philip> zcorpan: I'm pretty sure it was NN1, but I have no idea about other browsers
  170. # [15:15] <zcorpan> for <style> it also includes NN2, IIRC
  171. # [15:15] <Philip> (That's what I remember from testing too)
  172. # [15:16] <hsivonen> hmm. I'm unable to elicit parse errors from Rhino script compilation
  173. # [15:16] <hsivonen> why is that? do errors fire only when an erroneous part is run?
  174. # [15:17] <Philip> SpiderMonkey has separate compile/execute functions and compile fails if there's syntax errors
  175. # [15:17] <hsivonen> Philip: I'm running Rhino's compile only method
  176. # [15:18] <hsivonen> tried with the interpreter back end and the Java bytecode compiler back end
  177. # [15:18] <Philip> hsivonen: I've no idea how much Rhino is like SpiderMonkey
  178. # [15:18] <Philip> but it would seem weird if syntax errors didn't cause errors during compilation
  179. # [15:19] <hsivonen> hmm. I is possible that my intermediate IO filters are broken
  180. # [15:21] <Lachy> Philip, anything released prior to the introduction of the script element in HTML3 and also a really crappy mobile phone with a poor quality default browser on it. (though the phone is irrelevant anyway, since it's very much desigend for walled-garden content and wouldn't have much success in the real web)
  181. # [15:26] <Philip> It's just another case of cargo cult programming now
  182. # [15:27] <hsivonen> I'm puzzled. If I use a simple StringReader to feed a Reader to Rhino, I get expected errors
  183. # [15:27] <hsivonen> if I use a more complex Reader setup I don't
  184. # [15:27] <hsivonen> clearly, the reader setup is b0rked, but stepping through it in a debugger looks right...
  185. # [15:30] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think you shouldn't show how to use comments to "hide" style and script
  186. # [15:34] <Philip> I think you shouldn't suggest to not use them either - it doesn't actually hurt anything when people do, and trying to explain it will be unproductive and just cause some people to get a bit more confused
  187. # [15:35] <hsivonen> I agree
  188. # [15:44] * hsivonen locates one missing i++; in an IO loop...
  189. # [15:47] <hsivonen> Lachy: re: Authoring doc. The abstract contains a typo. It would, in my opinion, be best fixed by rewriting the abstract to position the document as a tutorial and reference for authors.
  190. # [15:48] <hsivonen> Something like: "This document describes and annotates the HTML5 document conformance criteria and providing a tutorial and a reference for Web developers."
  191. # [15:49] <hsivonen> Or better yet: "This document annotates the HTML5 document conformance criteria and providing a tutorial and a reference for Web developers."
  192. # [15:49] <hsivonen> doh
  193. # [15:49] <hsivonen> Or better yet: "This document annotates the HTML5 document conformance criteria providing a tutorial and a reference for Web developers."
  194. # [15:52] <hsivonen> I'm finally reaching data: URIs on my todo list
  195. # [15:56] <hsivonen> is percent escaping allowed in data URIs or should data URIs get special percentless treatment?
  196. # [15:56] <hsivonen> oops.
  197. # [15:57] <hsivonen> percents are allowed but have IRI-incompatible semantics
  198. # [15:57] <hsivonen> oh joy
  199. # [15:57] <Lachy> hsivonen, can you mail me or the list with that suggestion
  200. # [15:58] <hsivonen> Lachy: sure
  201. # [16:00] * Joins: anne (annevk@131.211.212.186)
  202. # [16:00] <anne> hsivonen, someone is working on an IRI update of data: iirc
  203. # [16:02] <Julian> what is that incompatibility?
  204. # [16:04] <hsivonen> Lachy: hmm. I think the Abstact could be made even better and simpler: This document explains to Web developers how to write HTML5 documents.
  205. # [16:05] <hsivonen> or illustrates
  206. # [16:06] <hsivonen> Julian: using percent encoding to communicate raw bytes that do not necessarily decode to UTF-8
  207. # [16:07] <hsivonen> Julian: so it is semantically a byte string instead of a Unicode string
  208. # [16:07] <Julian> I'm still not sure what the issue is.
  209. # [16:08] <Julian> You can have percent-encoded byte sequences that do not UTF-8 decode. This applies both to URIs and IRIs.
  210. # [16:08] <hsivonen> Julian: oh. I thought that was bogus in an IRI
  211. # [16:10] <Julian> no, any URI is a legal IRI
  212. # [16:10] <hsivonen> ok
  213. # [16:11] <hsivonen> Julian: so what should happen if a data IRI contains an non-ASCII character that is not percent-encoded?
  214. # [16:12] <hsivonen> Julian: *that* should at least be an incompatibility
  215. # [16:12] <Julian> that depends on the media type specified after data:, right?
  216. # [16:12] <hsivonen> does it?
  217. # [16:13] <hsivonen> where's the interoperable spec for it?
  218. # [16:13] <hsivonen> one might argue that it does *not* depend on the media type but instead you should encode the characters as UTF-8 bytes
  219. # [16:13] <hsivonen> always
  220. # [16:14] <hsivonen> s/interoperable/interoperably implemented/
  221. # [16:14] <Julian> ok, if the data IRI contains a non-URI character, the conversion needs to percent-escape it.
  222. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Julian: using UTF-8?
  223. # [16:14] <Julian> This may result in an invalid data URI. Is that what you're concerned with?
  224. # [16:15] <Julian> I would think so, but AFAIR RFC3987 allows special cases.
  225. # [16:15] <hsivonen> Julian: I'm concerned with not having a spec that covers this
  226. # [16:15] <Julian> yes, that may indicate that data IRIs need additional spec
  227. # [16:19] * Quits: anne (annevk@131.211.212.186) (Ping timeout)
  228. # [16:20] <hsivonen> it would help a great deal if tools.ietf.org linked to drafts expected to update/obsolete a given RFC
  229. # [16:21] <Julian> so I'm still not sure what the problem is :-)
  230. # [16:21] <Julian> Can you give an example?
  231. # [16:22] <hsivonen> Julian: is this an error: data:,ä
  232. # [16:22] <Lachy> what do you think of the name "The Web Developer's Guide to HTML 5"?
  233. # [16:22] <hsivonen> Julian: regardless, when should the decoded byte stream be?
  234. # [16:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: works for me
  235. # [16:24] <Julian> this is an error if and only if "data:,%xx%yy" (with the right bytes) is an error
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  237. # [16:25] <zcorpan> Lachy: don't tell people what they shouldn't do, that will be all they remember :). oops, i meant, only tell people what they should do.
  238. # [16:25] <hsivonen> Julian: Jena IRI says to ASCII is data:,%C3%A4 without throwing
  239. # [16:26] <hsivonen> Julian: do you agree that the "right" bytes are always the character encoded as UTF-8?
  240. # [16:26] <Lachy> zcorpan, I think it would be useful to point out common errors that authors make and explain why they shouldn't do them
  241. # [16:26] <hsivonen> Lachy: only if they are conformance errors per spec proper
  242. # [16:27] <Lachy> hsivonen, yes, of course
  243. # [16:27] <zcorpan> Lachy: yeah, perhaps for things that are very simple to understand (like misnested tags)
  244. # [16:28] <Julian> hsivonen: Why do you expect an exception for that case?
  245. # [16:28] <hsivonen> yay. Firefox agrees with Jena IRI
  246. # [16:29] <Julian> hsivonen: I think that's correct-
  247. # [16:29] <hsivonen> Julian: I don't expect an exception, I just want to see spec text that covers it. Should I take the generic IRI spec covering it?
  248. # [16:29] <Julian> hsivonen: Let's phrase it this way: unless there's a specific IRI variant for a URI scheme, RFC3987's rules should apply.
  249. # [16:30] <hsivonen> Julian: ok
  250. # [16:30] <Julian> I think there was a possibility to overrule the default, but right now I can't remember exactly where I saw that.
  251. # [16:30] <Julian> In general I would hope that IRI->URI mapping stays independant of the URI scheme, but maybe I'm missing something.
  252. # [16:31] <hsivonen> Julian: you are missing scheme-specific rules that are IDN host name-aware
  253. # [16:31] <Julian> right, that's one example.
  254. # [16:32] <Julian> hsivonen: so maybe rcf2616bis needs to update the "http" URI scheme definition with that information.
  255. # [16:35] <hsivonen> Julian: yeah, but RFC 3987 section 3.1. already discusses it
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  265. # [19:27] <Lachy> Does this sound like a good abstract...
  266. # [19:27] <Lachy> This document illustrates how to write HTML 5 documents, focussing on simplicity and practical applications for beginners while also providing in depth information for more advanced web developers.
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  269. # [19:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: works for me
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The end :)