/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 28 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  11. # [01:26] <Philip> Looks like it's now up to three bug reports in the past day since Firefox broke <canvas> drawImage
  12. # [01:26] <anne> I can't find the e-mail that formally announced that the survey result for HTML 5 was not conclusive enough
  13. # [01:26] <anne> for publishing HTML 5*
  14. # [01:26] <Philip> I'm slightly surprised people rely on it (and notice when it breaks) so much
  15. # [01:27] <anne> i like it, it means we're actually doing something that has a chance of impacting the Web
  16. # [01:28] <Philip> It also means we get legacy compatibility problems already, which isn't quite so good :-)
  17. # [01:29] <mjs> Philip: broke it how?
  18. # [01:29] <Philip> (e.g. someone filed a bug because FF3 no longer resets the path when calling clearRect and it broke their code)
  19. # [01:29] <anne> Hmm, Chris Wilson primary reason for moving <canvas> to a separate group is that it's easier to get the right people there... euhm...
  20. # [01:30] <Philip> mjs: Broke it so that it throws an exception whenever you call it
  21. # [01:31] <gavin> we're going to be quickly releasing 2.0.0.11 to fix it
  22. # [01:32] <Philip> gavin: Okay, sounds good
  23. # [01:32] <Philip> (Well, not so good for the people who have to organise the release, I guess)
  24. # [01:32] <anne> IBM objects too because they think it's out of scope
  25. # [01:32] <anne> but they'd agree if the charter was changed
  26. # [01:32] <Hixie> yeah i was surprised to see sam say that
  27. # [01:33] <Hixie> that seems... out of character
  28. # [01:33] * anne has seen that before with IBM
  29. # [01:33] <mjs> Is he anti-canvas personally?
  30. # [01:33] <Hixie> yeah, but i expected better of sam
  31. # [01:34] <mjs> I would expect Official IBM Directives to come from one of their other reps
  32. # [01:34] <mjs> I think he might think that explicit detail of the charter is important in principle
  33. # [01:34] <Hixie> (may i never be forced to work for a company like that)
  34. # [01:34] <mjs> though I am not sure why
  35. # [01:34] <mjs> clearly it has never been important for any other WG before
  36. # [01:36] <anne> indeed
  37. # [01:36] <anne> access control comes to mind
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  39. # [01:41] <anne> i think it's a bit sad that after nine months all Microsoft has done is stalling stuff without actually contributing to HTML 5
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  43. # [01:48] <anne> as for that the survey didn't carry
  44. # [01:48] <anne> all I could find was this: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes#item04
  45. # [01:48] <anne> no announcement on public-html-wg-announce afaict
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  47. # [01:55] <Dashiva> Reading survey results, I wonder if not some people would lead much happier lives in the xhtml2 wg...
  48. # [01:58] <Hixie> i look forward to seeing what conclusions are drawn from these surveys
  49. # [01:59] <anne> the funny part is that we'll likely get another five of these if I understood DanC correctly
  50. # [01:59] <anne> for offline, sql, history, etc.
  51. # [02:00] <Hixie> well if anyone in the group is trying to slow the group down, they're sure succeeding well
  52. # [02:00] <Hixie> kinda sad to see the w3c be played like this, though
  53. # [02:00] <Dashiva> I thought this was business as usual?
  54. # [02:01] <Hixie> i don't think i've ever seen quite so blatent process abuse for the purpose of implementing delay tactics
  55. # [02:01] * Dashiva is a w3c newbie
  56. # [02:01] <Hixie> i've certainly seen lots of process abuse before, but not like this
  57. # [02:02] <Hixie> usually the process abuse is in the other direction -- making things progress without taking feedback into account, for instance
  58. # [02:05] <anne> XMLHttpRequest is also being delayed
  59. # [02:05] <mjs> it is sad
  60. # [02:06] <anne> although there's a deadline there somewhere
  61. # [02:06] <mjs> there was one formal object and five disagrees
  62. # [02:06] <mjs> the chairs have said motions carried with more opposition than that before
  63. # [02:06] <anne> not sure about XMLHttpRequest Level 2
  64. # [02:06] <mjs> does the "consensus" rule basically give them discretion to decide whatever they want regardless of the survey?
  65. # [02:07] <anne> that certainly seems to be the case
  66. # [02:07] <Dashiva> consensus is pretty subjective, so might be
  67. # [02:07] <Dashiva> By the way, can someone enlighten me what's the thing about r\^ole?
  68. # [02:07] <anne> because not everyone replied some of the larger organizations that didn't have been called and asked for their opinion as I understood it
  69. # [02:07] <mjs> Philip Taylor
  70. # [02:07] <Philip> Dashiva: It's LaTeX
  71. # [02:07] <mjs> 's formal objection seems pretty ill formed anyway
  72. # [02:07] <Philip> (for writing accented characters)
  73. # [02:07] <Philip> (I think)
  74. # [02:07] <Dashiva> But why would there be a ^ on the o in role?
  75. # [02:07] <mjs> (the capital TAYLOR)
  76. # [02:08] <anne> I don't think TAYLOR was the issue
  77. # [02:08] <Hixie> well the survey isn't closed yet
  78. # [02:08] <Hixie> assuming you mean the canvas one
  79. # [02:08] <anne> I was talking about the HTML 5 one
  80. # [02:08] <Hixie> if you mean the html5 publishing one, i don't know what happened with that
  81. # [02:08] <Hixie> that was weird
  82. # [02:08] <Philip> Dashiva: Because that's one way to spell it
  83. # [02:08] <mjs> Hixie: I mean the html5 publishing one
  84. # [02:08] <mjs> Chris Wilson did actually vote on that one
  85. # [02:08] <mjs> that may be a first
  86. # [02:09] <anne> DanC only said something during the telcon about it as far as I can tell
  87. # [02:09] <anne> I thought he also e-mailed about it but he didn't
  88. # [02:09] <mjs> did the chairs agree to publish the diffs?
  89. # [02:09] <anne> nothing on public-html-wg-announce
  90. # [02:09] <mjs> (w/ about the same level of objection)
  91. # [02:09] <Dashiva> Philip: Seems like a lot of work for no difference to me :)
  92. # [02:09] <anne> html4-differences is tied to publishing html5 as far as I can tell
  93. # [02:09] <mjs> they are separate questions on the survey
  94. # [02:10] <Philip> (I think \^o comes from abbreviating 'os' in something like French)
  95. # [02:10] * MikeSmith^away is now known as MikeSmith
  96. # [02:10] <anne> mjs, well, they decided not to publish for now anyway
  97. # [02:10] <mjs> anne: both of them?
  98. # [02:10] <anne> although I haven't explicitly asked because I made the aforementioned assumption
  99. # [02:11] <mjs> seems silly to make you and Hixie write speical documents to raise awareness of parts of the spec, but refuse to publish the spec itself or existing documents that would help raise awareness like the diffs
  100. # [02:11] <anne> I think offline-webapps might be a different case
  101. # [02:11] <anne> DanC did talk about publishing that, but it didn't become very concrete
  102. # [02:12] <anne> I guess we'll get more surveys
  103. # [02:12] <Dashiva> I'm sure DanC or Chris will post the full story about the decision soonish, we are supposed to be the poster child for an open and transparent process, after all :)
  104. # [02:13] * anne thinks Dashiva forgot </sarcasm> :p
  105. # [02:14] <Dashiva> Maybe, or maybe I want to believe
  106. # [02:14] <Dashiva> Or maybe I'm scared of chaals' cricket bat
  107. # [02:14] <Hixie> no, i'm sure we'll see a descision after the survey is closed
  108. # [02:14] <marcos> hehe
  109. # [02:14] <anne> oh, the html5 survey is not closed?
  110. # [02:14] <Hixie> but if we do get yet more surveys, i'm going to start being more proactive in stopping this nonsense
  111. # [02:14] <Hixie> anne: the <canvas> one
  112. # [02:15] <mjs> I'm not sure what the decision actually is on the html5 question
  113. # [02:15] <anne> we're still talking about the html5 + html4-differences survey Hixie
  114. # [02:15] <Hixie> anne: ah, ok
  115. # [02:15] <Hixie> well
  116. # [02:15] <Hixie> i think DanC thinks the conclusion was conveyed
  117. # [02:15] <Hixie> so if you don't think so, i recommend e-mailing him and www-archive, asking for him to clarify
  118. # [02:16] <mjs> is there an email publishing the relevant minutes?
  119. # [02:16] <Hixie> (i wouldn't phrase such an e-mail in a leading way, e.g. i wouldn't recommend saying "so this vote was overwhelmingly in favour of publishing, when are we publishing", as that will likely make him defensive)
  120. # [02:17] <anne> mjs, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2007OctDec/0021.html
  121. # [02:21] <anne> yeah, prolly a good idea, done
  122. # [02:21] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0095.html
  123. # [02:21] * anne goes to bed now
  124. # [02:21] <Hixie> nn
  125. # [02:23] <mjs> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0096.html
  126. # [02:46] <mjs> this www-archive message is awesome: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0068.html
  127. # [02:47] <Dashiva> wow
  128. # [02:47] <Dashiva> Mr. Turin has competition
  129. # [02:51] * MikeSmith looks at URL and finds a familar message..
  130. # [02:53] <Lachy> That's completely incoherent
  131. # [02:53] <Lachy> MikeSmith, why did you forward it to the archive?
  132. # [02:54] <MikeSmith> because I wanted to preserve it for posterity
  133. # [02:55] <Lachy> it's not the first time I've seen someone believe XHTML is a security issue
  134. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, but this dude appears to believe a few other things that most don't
  135. # [02:57] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0052.html
  136. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> ...invisible and unrecognized ports that security can't protect
  137. # [02:59] <MikeSmith> Lachy - we should put the two of them in contact with either other
  138. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> er, either "either other" or the more mundane "each other" (as most people seem to like to phrase it)
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  145. # [03:39] <mjs> Lachy: Facepage installed xhml 4
  146. # [03:40] <mjs> what's there not to get?
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  201. # [12:26] <hsivonen> anne: I don't understand the header registration system. why are RFC 4229 "provisional"?
  202. # [12:28] <anne> not all RFCs are standards
  203. # [12:30] <anne> oh, that document registered a bunch of headers previously not registered
  204. # [12:30] <hsivonen> one would think that any RFC would taint the strings so that they cannot be reused
  205. # [12:30] <anne> and some of the headers it registered were not part of a standard but just some proposal
  206. # [12:30] <hsivonen> ok
  207. # [12:30] <anne> 4229 is the header registration doc
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  210. # [12:31] <hsivonen> http issues remind me that I should document the HTTP response codes used by the Validator.nu API
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  227. # [15:02] <anne> I have referrers from ptth://moc.elgoog.www
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  229. # [15:08] <Philip> Someone mirrored Google?
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  231. # [16:00] <Lachy> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=3 - info about how screen readers handle fieldsets and legends
  232. # [16:02] <hsivonen> Lachy: It would be interesting to have Orca, NVDA and VoiceOver results as well
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  237. # [17:23] * DanC finishes a little fun with html5lib and hCalendar ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2007Nov/0001.html
  238. # [17:24] * DanC tunes in to see if the agenda is out yet...
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  240. # [17:27] * DanC doesn't see an agenda from Chris Wilson yet... hopes it comes out soon
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  243. # [17:42] * Philip has usually used the minidom treebuilder in html5lib, because it's close enough to JS DOM that he doesn't have to learn anything new
  244. # [17:42] <Philip> but I'm wondering if ElementTree is a much better way to do things
  245. # [17:51] <DanC> cool... an elf updated http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
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  248. # [18:00] <anne-mac> nice
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  250. # [18:02] <anne-mac> so where's page down on my MacBook?
  251. # [18:02] <Philip> Fn + arrow-key?
  252. # [18:03] <anne-mac> "Michael(tm) Smith, HTML Working Group roustabout" :)
  253. # [18:03] <Philip> (Don't ask me where the Insert key is)
  254. # [18:03] * anne-mac learns about cmd+c and cmd+v
  255. # [18:03] <anne-mac> ah thanks, Fn works
  256. # [18:04] * Philip really doesn't like that keyboard layout
  257. # [18:04] <anne-mac> the latest beta for Opera looks quite reasonable on the Mac compared to earlier editions
  258. # [18:05] <anne-mac> at least in terms of amount of UI, design could probably be nicer
  259. # [18:06] <anne-mac> I haven't missed insert yet, though I'm missing delete
  260. # [18:06] <Philip> Fn + backspace
  261. # [18:07] <anne-mac> is that supposed to work outside normal keyboard input?
  262. # [18:11] <Philip> Not sure what you mean
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  292. # [22:25] <Hixie> DanC: yt? i have a question about the unrecorded objections in light of our charter requirements to record objections
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  303. # [23:59] <jgraham> Philip: re: ElementTree from a few hours ago; lxml is the way forward. All the goodness of ElementTree + a much richer api
  304. # Session Close: Thu Nov 29 00:00:00 2007

The end :)