/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 30 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  8. # [00:52] <anne> could people from the html5lib team please read the first "I" in the e-mail I just sent as "We"
  9. # [00:53] <anne> (plus other appropriate fixup :) )
  10. # [00:55] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2007Nov/0048.html seems relevant to us
  11. # [00:55] * anne hasn't read the references yet
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  20. # [01:23] * jgraham_ is sceptical that the supposed large group of people that would benefit from a markup-language-only spec without DOM, error-handling, etc. actually exists.
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  22. # [01:30] <mjs> jgraham_: haven't you seen that the current trend on the web is to have pure markup only and completely ignore scripting, behavior and rendering?
  23. # [01:30] <mjs> I think the kids call it "web 2.0" or "ajax" or something
  24. # [01:30] <mjs> or did I get that backwards?
  25. # [01:31] <jgraham_> :)
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  43. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Lachlan to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some was, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference
  44. # [04:14] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  45. # [04:14] * RRSAgent records action 8
  46. # [04:14] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-34 - Prepare \"Web Developer's Guide to HTML5\" for publication in some was, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference [on Lachlan Hunt - due 2007-12-07].
  47. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> Lachy - that was the action DanC meant to assign to you on the telcon but couldn't because you weren't in the tracker DB yet
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  61. # [08:44] * heycam changes topic to 'HTML WG meets Thu 29 Nov at 17:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
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  78. # [13:42] <anne> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/11/29/HTML5-needs-a-CarterPhone
  79. # [13:42] * anne just replied
  80. # [13:50] * anne wonders if his replies to Roy were sufficient or if Roy's taking a break from replying
  81. # [13:50] <mjs> interesting that Sam effectively portrays Microsoft and IBM as downtrodden innocents being steamrolled by insider interests
  82. # [13:51] <mjs> when in fact they are the minority objectors trying to override most of the rest of the group
  83. # [13:53] <mjs> I also wonder why he picked that URL for "rules"
  84. # [13:53] <anne> if they actually helped instead of playing armchair general I might have more sympathy for their position
  85. # [13:54] <Dashiva> So a "radically open standards process", does that mean he's opposed to non-public vetos of publication?
  86. # [13:54] <anne> mjs, because you extended HTML in a way that you later had to revert
  87. # [13:54] <anne> I think
  88. # [13:55] <mjs> we did?
  89. # [13:55] <Lachy> I'm totallyy confused about his statment that the HTMLWG needs a "CaterPhone". I have no idea what that is or what he means by it
  90. # [13:55] <mjs> Lachy: he means extensibility outside the authorized system
  91. # [13:55] <Lachy> oh
  92. # [13:55] <anne> mjs, Apple made <canvas> a void element and later it became a container element
  93. # [13:56] <anne> I guess this suggests that there are no clear rules for inventing new elements
  94. # [13:56] <mjs> anne: we certainly learned our lesson from that
  95. # [13:56] <mjs> which is to try to go to standards bodies as early as possible
  96. # [13:56] <mjs> and get testing and peer review on new features before shipping them in a final product
  97. # [13:56] <anne> yeah, that seems to be me like the solution as well
  98. # [13:57] <mjs> you may have noticed we spent a lot of time working on <video> in the context of the HTML5 spec before publishing even an experimental implementation
  99. # [13:58] <anne> yup
  100. # [14:10] <mjs> I replied too
  101. # [14:14] <anne> cool
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  103. # [14:30] <shepazu> hey, in SVG, you can include a raster image inline by using base64 encoding... can you do that in HTML's <img>?
  104. # [14:31] <mjs> with data: URLs you can
  105. # [14:31] <mjs> (not in IE)
  106. # [14:31] <shepazu> ok, cool
  107. # [14:31] <mjs> does svg have a way besides data: URLs?
  108. # [14:31] <shepazu> no no
  109. # [14:31] <shepazu> that's what I meant
  110. # [14:32] <zcorpan> i think you can put data urls anywhere URIs are accepted
  111. # [14:32] <mjs> well, in browsers that support them you can
  112. # [14:32] <shepazu> I need to read up on that
  113. # [14:32] <mjs> which is basically not-IE
  114. # [14:32] <zcorpan> yeah
  115. # [14:32] <shepazu> thanks, guys
  116. # [15:11] <anne> ah, the video SHOULD clause has been mentioned
  117. # [15:14] <anne> http://htmlpurifier.org/ is laso implementing HTML5 parsing
  118. # [15:15] <zcorpan> anne: don't they use ph5p?
  119. # [15:17] <mjs> this is entertaining (though something off-topic): http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/11/30/internet-explorer-doesnt-just-suck-it-also-blows/
  120. # [15:17] <mjs> *somewhat
  121. # [15:19] <anne> zcorpan, dunno
  122. # [15:19] <anne> the title is funny
  123. # [15:19] <anne> URI title I mean
  124. # [15:20] * Philip wonders if Opera is going to fix its non-support of canvas fallback content
  125. # [15:21] <Philip> (...unless that was already fixed in a recent beta or something)
  126. # [15:22] <anne> I think that if you disable JavaScript we show <canvas> fallback but I don't think that parsing of <canvas> has been fixed at all
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  129. # [15:49] <smedero> Lachy: anne mentions you might be working on a HTML 5 for authors article for a web publication. I've been working on something similar for the A List Apart folks - I'm only in the outlining stage though.
  130. # [15:49] <smedero> just don't want to duplicate efforts.
  131. # [15:52] <Lachy> smedero, mine will be published on monday
  132. # [15:52] <Lachy> on ALA
  133. # [15:52] <smedero> ha
  134. # [15:52] <smedero> I asked them if they had something in the pipeline
  135. # [15:52] <smedero> and they said no
  136. # [15:52] <smedero> heh
  137. # [15:52] <smedero> alright
  138. # [15:52] <anne> they want more :)
  139. # [15:52] <Lachy> when did you ask?
  140. # [15:52] <smedero> like a week ago
  141. # [15:52] <Lachy> lol
  142. # [15:53] <smedero> I've always worked with Krista Stevens...
  143. # [15:53] <smedero> (well later others... but for topic selection, Krista has been my point person.)
  144. # [15:53] <smedero> That's cool, I'll take a different angle than yours
  145. # [15:53] <smedero> or just select another topic all together.
  146. # [15:53] <Lachy> if you were hanging out in IRC a few days ago, you would have seen some discussion of it and got a sneak peek
  147. # [15:53] <smedero> Yeah, I've had a crazy week and couldn't be here as often... I'll dig up the logs though.
  148. # [15:53] <smedero> Thanks!
  149. # [15:54] <Lachy> remember, the spec is huge and my article only covers a small fraction of it. So there's plenty of stuff that needs writing about
  150. # [15:56] <smedero> Yep.
  151. # [15:56] <smedero> It is totally cool... I just wanted to make sure I'm not writing the *same* thing.
  152. # [15:57] <smedero> I've written for ALA in the past and thought I should take advantage of their offer to write again to do a little PR for the spec.
  153. # [15:57] <smedero> the more the better.
  154. # [16:09] * crackbot-og is now known as MikeSmith
  155. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> the more the better indeed
  156. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> more choices, not less
  157. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> mo
  158. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> as in もっと
  159. # [16:13] <Dashiva> As in Judy & Mary
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  161. # [16:26] <anne> Hixie created http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications
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  163. # [16:50] <anne> can anybody tell me what karl is trying to say?
  164. # [16:51] <anne> i mean, I knew he was working on that document, I heard that elsewhere
  165. # [16:51] <anne> but what exactly was his initial point if he's ok with what Lachlan is doing?!
  166. # [16:56] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2007Nov/0054.html "The only exception to this rule is of course if you're for instance the CDF WG or the TAG, in which case you should regularly threaten to solve other people's issues so that, in awed fear that you might actually do it, they get to work."
  167. # [16:57] <anne> :)
  168. # [17:05] <anne> http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=815
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  171. # [17:28] <anne> Julian, yes, it's hard to see
  172. # [17:37] <anne> zcorpan, nice find, I looked for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0096.html yesterday but couldn't find it
  173. # [17:38] <zcorpan> anne: http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alists.w3.org+circle+depends+parsing+scripting+navigation+hickson :)
  174. # [17:39] * anne just did a similar trick to locate http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0003/offset-mess.htm
  175. # [17:39] <Dashiva> Why didn't you use the Semantic Web to magically answer your question?
  176. # [17:40] <anne> my brain failed to connect
  177. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> mock on, mock on, Voltaire, Rousseau
  178. # [17:49] <Dashiva> Poetic
  179. # [17:57] <anne> fun
  180. # [17:58] <anne> we really do get to rehash each and every thingie again and again and again
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  182. # [17:58] <anne> besides spec splitting we now have the question why <canvas> can't be called <span>
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  184. # [18:00] <zcorpan> at least it's a good thing we have archives
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  186. # [18:04] <Philip> <canvas> has to be called <canvas> for 'support existing content'
  187. # [18:04] <Philip> though there's not much stopping the canvas API being implemented on other elements too
  188. # [18:04] <Philip> (except for it being redundant functionality, and implementors presumably not liking it)
  189. # [18:05] <anne> implementors will stop that :)
  190. # [18:05] <anne> overloading elements is not good practice
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  193. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson - you there?
  194. # [18:32] * Philip sees http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/30/1415235
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  204. # [19:40] * anne doens't get http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0109.html
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  215. # [21:38] <anne> Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parser-appcache has an error in that it talks about an "application" attribute on "html" instead of a "manifest" attribute on "html"
  216. # [21:39] <Hixie> anne: the comp spec page was cos i keep forgetting what specs we need editors for. feel free to add to it.
  217. # [21:39] <Hixie> yeah, i think someone reported that already
  218. # [21:40] <anne> ok
  219. # [21:41] <anne> i'm still working on some parts of the CSSOM btw
  220. # [21:42] <anne> such as getClientRects(), offsetHeight, etc.
  221. # [21:43] <Hixie> yeah, the bottom few on the list are ones with part-time editors
  222. # [21:45] <anne> I know not everyone favors the approach but I splitted out the DOM Level 0 stuff out of CSSOM and am working on making that a ready draft called CSSOM View Module
  223. # [21:46] <anne> I'm not really interested in working on .style.width.px and friends and given that CSS gains animation support it seems less necessary anyway
  224. # [21:46] <Hixie> valid
  225. # [21:48] <anne> Having said that, we do still get numerous serialization bugs (for .style and such) and getComputedStyle issues but I hadn't figured thosee out yet anyway
  226. # [21:49] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0111.html
  227. # [21:50] <Hixie> wish my mail was still working
  228. # [21:51] <Hixie> getting mail in dribs and drabs is annoying
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  230. # [21:52] <anne> guess IBM and MS will both object to numerous features for whatever reason
  231. # [21:54] <anne> I think we can still try Web DOM4 Events or something like that btw that doesn't have NS methods
  232. # [21:55] <anne> as far as I can tell nobody implements them
  233. # [21:55] <anne> apart from some specifications
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  235. # [22:25] <anne> I created http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/OpenIssues to track the large remaining items
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  237. # [22:36] <Philip> What would happen if someone had a protocol named "MUST", and wanted to write an RFC for it?
  238. # [22:40] <Dashiva> Make a lawyer alias
  239. # [22:42] <anne> What if your protocol is named "RFC 2119"?
  240. # [22:51] <Philip> Naming a protcol "RFC 2119" would just be silly :-p
  241. # [22:52] <Philip> s//o/
  242. # [22:53] <anne> It's a request for comments protocol that will be finished in 2119. What's the story with "MUST"?
  243. # [22:53] <Philip> It's a MUlticast Streaming Transport, perhaps
  244. # [22:54] <Philip> I wonder if that RFC 2119 protocol will be deployed before IPv6
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  246. # [22:55] <anne> someone suggested to me that we should work on ipv5 and tcp5
  247. # [22:57] <Philip> BGP5 too
  248. # [22:58] <Philip> (That's actually sort of the area I'm working in now)
  249. # [22:59] <anne> Wikipedia claims version 4 is already much closer to industry practices
  250. # [23:02] <Philip> As far as I'm aware (which isn't very far) that's probably true, so it doesn't need something equivalent to HTML5
  251. # [23:05] <Philip> (Apparently the problem is that it's simply broken - e.g. it chooses bad routes between two addresses when a better route exists, which is kind of defeating the whole purpose of a routing algorithm - and it's too complex for anyone to analyse the correctness of a network)
  252. # [23:05] <Philip> (or something like that, anyway)
  253. # [23:26] <Philip> http://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/index.php/2007/11/30/firefox-20011-stability-update-now-available-for-download/ - now with happier canvas
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  258. # [23:50] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.145.188.131) (Quit: gsnedders)
  259. # [23:58] <anne> Philip, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/SVG_and_canvas
  260. # [23:59] <anne> I also made http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._SMIL_video and I quoted mjs in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/SVG_and_(X)HTML
  261. # [23:59] * anne hopes he loses wiki pages less than pointers to e-mails
  262. # [23:59] * Hixie sighs at public-html
  263. # Session Close: Sat Dec 01 00:00:00 2007

The end :)