/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-12-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 01 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:02] <anne> yeah, I'm trying to figure out what exactly the issue is
  4. # [00:03] <anne> but maybe it's what markp said: "There’s something about the W3C that makes people go all crazy.
  5. # [00:03] <anne> -- http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=815
  6. # [00:05] <Dashiva> The ghost of patents pending
  7. # [00:05] <anne> some of the threads are not about that, they're just about people repeatedly asking the same question
  8. # [00:06] <anne> maybe getting the wrong answers or so, dunno
  9. # [00:07] <Hixie> there seem to be three or four different "issues"
  10. # [00:07] <Hixie> there's the group trying to delay at all costs, and the group trying to publish at all costs
  11. # [00:08] <Hixie> there's the group that thinks the spec is too big, and the group that thinks the spec needs to be big
  12. # [00:09] <Hixie> there's the group that thinks the spec doesn't cater to their pet target audience, and the groups that are (a) trying to fix this, (b) saying the spec _does_ cover that group's needs, and (c) say the problem will be fixed in due course
  13. # [00:10] <Hixie> and then there's the group of people who have a pet issue that they think needs resolving sooner than any other issue
  14. # [00:10] <Hixie> and who get upset when their issue is treated with the same level of priority as all the other issues
  15. # [00:11] <Hixie> part of the overall problem seems to be that these groups overlap greatly, and that people from groups in different pairs argue against each other (and thus argue at cross-purposes)
  16. # [00:12] * Joins: sbuluf (arxlaw@200.49.132.107)
  17. # [00:13] * jgraham_ always wonders if he would have been better off not bothering after posting to public-html
  18. # [00:13] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.111.198)
  19. # [00:14] <Hixie> well right now i have a surprising advantage -- i'm not getting my public-html mail, so i can't reply :-)
  20. # [00:14] <hober> heh
  21. # [00:17] <Dashiva> I'm in the "waiting for my issue to come up, in the silent hope that nobody will start arguing about it, causing it to be trautmatized" camp
  22. # [00:21] <anne> hmm, Sam Ruby would be surprised if nobody stepped forward to work on a 3D <canvas> spec
  23. # [00:22] <Hixie> i've been hoping someone would work on that for about 2 years now
  24. # [00:22] <anne> a decent specification for offsetHeight has also been lacking since IE5 and the rest reverse engineered it
  25. # [00:23] * anne tries to fix that with http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ although it's not perfect (doesn't stall script execution yet to do layout first and crap like that)
  26. # [00:25] <anne> there are so many examples that show that proper specifications are not being made that I wonder what he's basing that statement on
  27. # [00:27] <Hixie> hope?
  28. # [00:41] <Dashiva> Maybe it's different inside IBM
  29. # [00:42] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@69.140.40.140)
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  35. # [01:30] <anne> heh, the WebKit guys hit exactly the same bug the Mozilla guys hit for getElementsByClassName()
  36. # [01:30] <anne> http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14955
  37. # [01:31] * anne is glad his tests ensured that <html class=foo> works in initial releases
  38. # [01:38] <mjs> anne: right now that test case is stopping us from landing the implementation
  39. # [01:38] <mjs> anne: but all told it's probably a good requirement
  40. # [01:38] <mjs> oh, I see
  41. # [01:38] <mjs> found other bugs too
  42. # [01:39] <Dashiva> Although, is there an easy way to do the gEBCN test on a single element?
  43. # [01:39] <mjs> element.classList.contains(whateverClass)
  44. # [01:39] <Dashiva> If you wanted "this element -and- descendants" semantics
  45. # [01:39] <Dashiva> But you'd have to split the string and loop, etc?
  46. # [01:39] <mjs> if you wanted to test for mulltiple classes, yes
  47. # [01:42] <anne> I'm not sure about the case-sensitive issue in quirks mode yet. It depends on how the code is designed whether or not it makes sense, imo. That is, we want fewer if/else/parameters in implementations, not more. Depending on how you implement this, case-sensitive quirks mode either requires more or less of those.
  48. # [01:43] <anne> Having said that, doing case-sensitive until we figure that out might be safer :)
  49. # [01:43] * Quits: sbuluf (arxlaw@200.49.132.107) (Quit: sbuluf)
  50. # [01:44] <anne> (Hmm, ok, that's not totally true. It depends on whether authors are using "foo" and "FOO" or are just using "foo" consistently and use "FOO" to refer to it...)
  51. # [01:46] <MikeSmith> hmm, I'm wondering what I might could do (if anything) to help with the current public-html discussion about what could/should be split out of the spec
  52. # [01:46] <Dashiva> You could actively seek out people who promise to edit <section that possibly is going to be split out>
  53. # [01:47] <Dashiva> And if you don't find any, you could bring that up so people can take the lack of editors into account
  54. # [01:48] * anne has been thinking about creating some high-level wiki pages documenting his pov
  55. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> anne - I think that would be a good thing to do if you can make time
  56. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> though if it's in a wiki it seems like it might better be a place for trying to record the range of POVs
  57. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> since anybody will be able to come in and edit it
  58. # [01:52] <anne> yeah, maybe
  59. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> Dashiva - yeah, I guess I (we) should try harder to identify and recruit some qualified editors
  60. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> We had discussion here about this the other day
  61. # [01:53] <Dashiva> Well, saying it like that sounds kinda like splitting out is already decided
  62. # [01:53] <anne> hixie defined some groups before, documenting the pov of the groups i fit be doing copy and paste from the mailing list and some editing would be my start
  63. # [01:53] <Dashiva> I meant it more in the ense of making sure splitting out is even a feasible solution
  64. # [01:53] <Dashiva> *sense
  65. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> Dashiva - no, I didn't mean to imply that it's already decided
  66. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> anne - yeah
  67. # [01:54] <anne> (fortunately you could follow it despite the obvious grammar issues!)
  68. # [01:56] * MikeSmith is probably in the front of the pack here as far as obvious grammar issues and spelling mistakes
  69. # [01:57] <Dashiva> This sentence no verb
  70. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> Anyway, it seems to me that publishing the spec as-is as a FPWD (and so getting much wider public review of it) would only help as far as the discussion about what could/should potentially be split out
  71. # [01:58] <anne> rather than talking about splitting i'd rather have people talk about how we can fix the remaining issues we have with the Web's platform
  72. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> anne - that doesn't seem like a terrifically well-bounded topic to try to discuss
  73. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> or maybe you mean have specific discussions about the issues that have already been identified
  74. # [02:01] <anne> well, there are issues with the DOM, CSS, etc. that need solving. I'd rather people focused on that than working on splitting items from HTML5
  75. # [02:02] * Joins: sbuluf (cem@200.49.132.76)
  76. # [02:03] <anne> oh well, bed seems a better idea at this point :)
  77. # [02:03] <anne> g'night
  78. # [02:03] <MikeSmith> 'night
  79. # [02:06] <Dashiva> Sounds like a plan
  80. # [02:14] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.21.203) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  81. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> Half glad when it is night, and sleep,
  82. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> If, haply, thro' a dream, to peep
  83. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> In parlors, shut by day.
  84. # [02:15] <mjs> hey MikeSmith
  85. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> mjs - hei
  86. # [02:15] <mjs> MikeSmith: your email about <canvas> was well composed
  87. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> thanks
  88. # [02:16] <mjs> anne: for us, case sensitive in quirks mode will require some extra work
  89. # [02:36] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to track resolution of Nokia request to delete "should support Ogg" clause before publishing FPWD
  90. # [02:36] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  91. # [02:36] * RRSAgent records action 9
  92. # [02:36] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-35 - Track resolution of Nokia request to delete \"should support Ogg\" clause before publishing FPWD [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-12-08].
  93. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to track resolution of Nokia request for the WG to "asses and draw attention to performance issues with JavaScript and graphics operations on embedded devices"
  94. # [02:40] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  95. # [02:40] * RRSAgent records action 10
  96. # [02:40] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-36 - Track resolution of Nokia request for the WG to \"asses and draw attention to performance issues with JavaScript and graphics operations on embedded devices\" [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-12-08].
  97. # [02:45] <mjs> oh, I misunderstood tehir patent concern
  98. # [02:45] <mjs> about the SHOULD
  99. # [02:45] <mjs> I was going to point out that a SHOULD clause can't implicate any patent claims as "essential claims" under the patent policy
  100. # [02:45] <mjs> since a SHOULD is by definition not essential
  101. # [02:46] <mjs> but they didn't really reference the policy
  102. # [02:46] <jgraham_> http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/outliner/outliner.html work in progress; will have bugs and crash, might eat the cake out of your cupboard at night
  103. # [02:46] <mjs> fwiw I'd be in favor of removing the SHOULD, as would Apple as an organization
  104. # [02:46] <mjs> but I don't think it is an obstacle to publishing
  105. # [02:48] * Joins: Thezilch (fuz007@68.54.228.249)
  106. # [02:50] * jgraham_ is in favour of the SHOULD and the idea behind it but recognizes that those who won't implement Ogg without the should won't implement it with the should either so it makes little practical difference
  107. # [02:51] <mjs> I'm in favor of a baseline codec in principle
  108. # [02:52] <mjs> but I don't think Ogg Theora has been shown to be a suitable choice, and I'm not 100% sure there is one
  109. # [02:53] <jgraham_> mjs: with the proviso that I know vry litle about this area, I'm very skeptical that there exists a video format that everyone can agree is a "suitable choice"
  110. # [02:55] <mjs> jgraham_: there are video formats with poor compression ratios that are clearly unencumbered
  111. # [02:56] <jgraham_> A format that has much worse performance than available in existing Flash players is useless; I can't see it being used enough to be worth anyone shipping
  112. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> jgraham_ - if we are unlikely to get agreement about a suitable choice, does that not argue for removing that particular clause from the spec?
  113. # [02:57] <MikeSmith> jgraham_ - just tried http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ in the outliner and I get "Error processing outline" and no output
  114. # [02:58] <mjs> jgraham_: question is how close can you get to state-of-the-art compression with something that has suitable IP characteristics
  115. # [02:59] <jgraham_> MikeSmith: Maybe. It depends on whether it has a positive impact on interoperability amongst players who don't have vorbis patent fears/other business reasons for pushing alternative formats
  116. # [03:01] <jgraham_> mjs: Indeed. If we can't get close we have to hope that HTML video offers enough benefits over flash that encoding the video in N different formats (with N ~= #UAs) is worth the hassle. Otherwise it's been a giant waste of time :)
  117. # [03:02] <mjs> H.264 is better than current Flash
  118. # [03:02] <mjs> and is the same as future Flash
  119. # [03:02] <mjs> VC-1 is about as good as H.264
  120. # [03:02] <mjs> Ogg Theora is about as good as current Flash, maybe a little better
  121. # [03:02] <mjs> not as good as H.264
  122. # [03:02] <mjs> don't know of other currently viable options
  123. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> jgraham_ - I suppose do (about positive impact). But I'm not sure how much real-world impact including it in the spec would have. it seems like vendors who see business value in shipping with Ogg are going to ship with Ogg regardless, and those who don't, won't.
  124. # [03:03] <jgraham_> MikeSmith: The outliner (specifically lxml.etree) doesn't like xmlns attributes. It thinks you're trying to do xml :)
  125. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> jgraham_ - now I have a good reason for converting that page to be a non-namespaced HTML5 instance :)
  126. # [03:04] <mjs> It seems pretty clear that regardless of whether the SHOULD is there or not, Mozilla and Opera will likely support Ogg Theora out of the box, and Apple, Nokia and Microsoft likely won't
  127. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
  128. # [03:04] <mjs> it's unclear if Microsoft will be willing to support <video> at all
  129. # [03:04] <mjs> it's also pretty likely that Nokia and Apple will both support MPEG-4/H.264/AAC
  130. # [03:04] <mjs> and that Android will as well
  131. # [03:04] <jgraham_> mjs - how many of those options could Mozilla ship? AIUI Theora is the only one with no _known_ licensing issues
  132. # [03:05] <mjs> since it already includes the codecs
  133. # [03:05] <mjs> jgraham_: I don't think Mozilla could ship H.264 or VC-1 without relying on a third-party component for licensing cover, or paying someone lots of money
  134. # [03:06] <mjs> (except on mobile platforms where H.264 is near universally already available on the hardware and licensed by the handset manufacturer)
  135. # [03:11] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  136. # [03:12] * jgraham_ -> sleep
  137. # [03:16] <MikeSmith> jgraham_ - good night
  138. # [03:21] * Quits: jgraham_ (james@81.86.218.70) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  139. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status?
  140. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
  141. # [03:21] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 16 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Lachlan, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
  142. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> ISSUE: Nokia request to delete "should support Ogg" clause before publishing FPWD
  143. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> hmm, guess there's IRC interface to raise new issues
  144. # [03:27] <mjs> Adobe's video position paper is odd
  145. # [03:27] <mjs> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/video/positions/adobe.pdf
  146. # [03:27] <mjs> they seem to be pro-<video> but seem to imply it should be implemented based on Flash or something
  147. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> hmm
  148. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> just now read it
  149. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> Good to seem them coming out strongly in support of <video> at least
  150. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> would be great to have them represented in HTML WG
  151. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> ISSUE-24?
  152. # [03:32] * trackbot-ng getting information on ISSUE-24
  153. # [03:32] <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-24 -- Request to delete "should support Ogg" clause before publishing FPWD -- OPEN
  154. # [03:32] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/24
  155. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-35
  156. # [03:32] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-35.
  157. # [03:32] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-35 Track resolution of Nokia request to delete "should support Ogg" clause before publishing FPWD closed
  158. # [03:36] * Quits: aroben (aroben@17.203.12.72) (Quit: Leaving)
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  161. # [03:40] <MikeSmith> ISSUE-25?
  162. # [03:40] * trackbot-ng getting information on ISSUE-25
  163. # [03:40] <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-25 -- Request to assess JS/graphics perf. issues on embedded devices -- OPEN
  164. # [03:40] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/25
  165. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> ACTION-36?
  166. # [03:41] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-36
  167. # [03:41] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-36 -- Michael(tm) Smith to track resolution of Nokia request for the WG to "asses and draw attention to performance issues with JavaScript and graphics operations on embedded devices" -- due 2007-12-08 -- OPEN
  168. # [03:41] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/36
  169. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-36
  170. # [03:41] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-36.
  171. # [03:41] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-36 Track resolution of Nokia request for the WG to "asses and draw attention to performance issues with JavaScript and graphics operations on embedded devices" closed
  172. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> ACTION-34?
  173. # [03:41] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-34
  174. # [03:41] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2007-12-07 -- OPEN
  175. # [03:41] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  176. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> ..
  177. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> It is worth noting that Mikko's message includes the statement "We believe the canvas element and its JavaScript interface should be considered in scope of the HTML5 WG."
  178. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> and that is indicates Nokia is otherwise unequivocally supported publication of the FPWD
  179. # [03:46] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.111.198) (Quit: mjs)
  180. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> s/that is/that it/
  181. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> krijnh - I'm wondering if there's any way we can get html-wg logs for 25 and 26 November posted to http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
  182. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> I mean if somebody might have complete local logs for those days.
  183. # [04:12] <Philip> MikeSmith: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/html-wg-20071124-20071201.txt should cover that period
  184. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> Philip - thanks
  185. # [04:14] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/whatwg-20071124-20071201.txt too
  186. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> great. I hope krijnh might be able to convert those into HTML versions
  187. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> if not, just having the plain-text versions posted at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ would be better than nothing
  188. # [04:17] <Philip> echo '<!DOCTYPE HTML><plaintext>' | cat - html-wg-20071124-20071201.txt > html-wg.html
  189. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> Philip - :)
  190. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> I was thinking more like getting the bells a whistles added
  191. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> highlighting and anchor stuff
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  194. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson - you around?
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  202. # [07:43] <mjs> http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=815
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  204. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> mjs - nice to now have http://planet.webkit.org/
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  229. # [14:58] <krijnh> MikeSmith & Philip: I'll try adding them
  230. # [15:01] <Philip> krijnh: Thanks :-)
  231. # [15:03] <krijnh> They're not in the same format as mine, so joins/parts are showed
  232. # [15:05] <krijnh> Done
  233. # [15:05] <krijnh> Is everything still working as it should?
  234. # [15:08] <Philip> krijnh: Would it be easy to add the early part of Nov 27 too?
  235. # [15:09] <Philip> Actually, I guess that would mess up the line markings
  236. # [15:09] <krijnh> It would
  237. # [15:09] <krijnh> But there are like 0 markings :)
  238. # [15:09] <krijnh> At least for #whatwg
  239. # [15:09] <Philip> s/At least/Only/ :-)
  240. # [15:09] <krijnh> For #xhtml as well :)
  241. # [15:10] <Philip> I don't have any #xhtml logs :-(
  242. # [15:10] <Philip> though I could make some up, by copying-and-pasting random joins/parts
  243. # [15:11] <krijnh> Added
  244. # [15:11] <krijnh> Hehe
  245. # [15:11] <krijnh> Yeah, they're not too useful
  246. # [15:12] <Philip> It's fortunate that our timezones almost match up
  247. # [15:14] <krijnh> Is anybody even interested in joins/parts/quits btw?
  248. # [15:15] <Philip> They're sometimes vaguely useful if you want to see when someone was last online
  249. # [15:15] <krijnh> Hmm
  250. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> krijnh - thanks very much
  251. # [15:23] <mjs> Olaf is confusing me
  252. # [15:24] <krijnh> MikeSmith: Np
  253. # [15:26] <Philip> Does "degustation" mean taste, or is it something more specific? (I don't think I've heard it in English before)
  254. # [15:27] <krijnh> I think it's a degu station you mean, for things like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degu
  255. # [15:27] <krijnh> Anyway, never heard of it :)
  256. # [15:27] <Philip> Woah, the picture on that page is scary - the creature has two heads!
  257. # [15:28] <krijnh> No, its ass just looks a lot like its head..
  258. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> heh
  259. # [15:29] * MikeSmith does "dict degustation" and finds "the appreciation of sapid qualities by the taste organs."
  260. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> wtf is "sapid"?
  261. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> speak English, dict!
  262. # [15:30] <Philip> $ dict sapid
  263. # [15:30] <Philip> bash: dict: command not found
  264. # [15:30] <Philip> :-(
  265. # [15:30] <krijnh> "a careful, appreciative tasting of various foods"
  266. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> "Camels, to make the water sapid, do raise the mud with their feet."
  267. # [15:31] <krijnh> www.sapidwines.com !
  268. # [15:32] <krijnh> There, a <dt>, <dd> inside an image :)
  269. # [15:32] <Philip> I'm glad I know English because otherwise I'd have to learn it which seems really quite complicated
  270. # [15:33] <krijnh> Sapid and degustation shouldn't be in the English dictionary, they should be in a separate one, to stay a bit ontopic..
  271. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> mjs - I read the part where Olaf says:
  272. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> [[
  273. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> the list could be reduced to
  274. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> the essentials too, for example having only
  275. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> 'style' (including script and maybe canvas) and 'object'
  276. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> ...
  277. # [15:38] <mjs> I don't think he understands what canvas does
  278. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> This is easier to explain to authors, what the
  279. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> difference between the elements is
  280. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> ]]
  281. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> perhaps not
  282. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> But that idea of reducing a markup vocabulary to some minimal set of element mines seems like a common fallacy
  283. # [15:39] <mjs> it's not like any of the existing elements can truly be removed
  284. # [15:39] <mjs> they have to be supported by browsers
  285. # [15:39] <mjs> and will exist in content
  286. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> true, but even if you could it would just mean that you then need attribute values to distinguish between different classes or types of the content that those elements are used for
  287. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> which just ends up masking the complexity, not making it any easier for authors
  288. # [15:41] <mjs> and you'd be defining elements of such complexity that the implementations would be untestable
  289. # [15:41] <mjs> (every "if" statement doubles the possible number of paths)
  290. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> yeah. anyway, pointless to have much a discussion about it
  291. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> Just that he seems of the type that wants to purify the language
  292. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> and mostly just looking at things for the authoring side, without much insight or consideration implementation realities
  293. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> mjs - btw, your "Apple's feature and performance goals for WebKit" post seems like something worth blogging up for Surfin' Safari
  294. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> or maybe you're already planning to for all I know
  295. # [15:48] <mjs> MikeSmith: it's way too vague to post there
  296. # [15:48] <mjs> I prefer if Surfin' Safari posts are about things that have actually happened
  297. # [15:49] <mjs> it's also very incomplete
  298. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> mjs - I see. another thing: What is the "User-Agent switching tool"? I've seen a couple of mentions of it, but I find nothing in the UI of current nightly
  299. # [15:53] <mjs> MikeSmith: it's in the Debug menu in Safari
  300. # [15:56] <Philip> MikeSmith: Do you have a pointer to that post? (I remember seeing it but didn't read it and forgot where it was)
  301. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> Philip - http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2007-November/002921.html
  302. # [15:58] <Philip> Aha, thanks
  303. # [16:00] <mjs> it's more of a starting point for discussing direction with contributors
  304. # [16:00] <mjs> than a formal announcement
  305. # [16:00] <mjs> so please don't blog anything like "Apple promises complete support for HTML5 within 3 months" or anything
  306. # [16:00] <mjs> or I will be totally fired
  307. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> heh
  308. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> OK
  309. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> mjs - one more thing: please go ahead and submit some test cases to the public-html-testsuite list when you have time
  310. # [16:02] <mjs> MikeSmith: will do
  311. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> thanks
  312. # [16:10] <Philip> Should discussion about testing (as opposed to discussion about specific test cases) go in public-html instead?
  313. # [16:11] <Philip> (e.g. if I wanted to describe the process I used for creating canvas tests and look for feedback on that)
  314. # [16:16] <mjs> not sure
  315. # [16:16] <mjs> I'd say we should discuss where test case discussion should take place on public-html
  316. # [16:16] <mjs> but that's a little meta
  317. # [16:17] <Philip> It's more meta now that we're discussing all that on IRC
  318. # [16:21] <mjs> I think it would be best to just mention the test list on public-html, invite people interested in testing there, and ask if anyone would prefer test case design discussion remain on public-html
  319. # [16:22] <anne> just do it on the new mailing list and tell people where they can join
  320. # [16:22] <anne> less choice
  321. # [16:24] <Hixie> my, mjs is up late
  322. # [16:24] <mjs> well
  323. # [16:24] <mjs> I slept from like 10 to 1 am
  324. # [16:24] <mjs> and couldn't get back to sleep
  325. # [16:24] <mjs> anne: fair enough
  326. # [16:26] <anne> and Hixie is up early? :)
  327. # [16:29] <Hixie> yeah
  328. # [16:29] <Hixie> volunteering for first lego league
  329. # [16:43] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  330. # [16:44] <anne> wikipedia says that an HTML 5 working draft was published on Nov 15
  331. # [16:44] * anne guesses the non-editor template confuses people
  332. # [16:46] <mjs> maybe we could replace the chairs with a wiki
  333. # [16:52] <Philip> A wiki would need someone with overall control so the group doesn't publish FREE ONLINE POKER WWW.CHEAPMORTGAGES.INFO or whatever else happens to be on the page, so I think the chairs would still have an important role
  334. # [17:08] <anne> how can <canvas> be considered an embedding element, exactly?
  335. # [17:09] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@83.227.33.203)
  336. # [17:11] <Philip> <canvas src="/c/shinybuttons" type="image/x-canvas"></canvas>
  337. # [17:16] <Philip> Oh, sadly that doesn't work in any browser :-(
  338. # [17:18] * Joins: sbuluf (rimz@200.49.132.89)
  339. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> Philip - Yeah, I guess general discussion about testing should stay on public-html
  340. # [17:33] <Dashiva> Although, I'm sure some people might want the ability to 'seed' the canvas
  341. # [17:33] <Dashiva> <canvas src="initial-state.png"></canvas>
  342. # [17:34] <Philip> <img src="initial-state.png" id="i"> ... var i = document.getElementById('i'); var ctx = i.parentNode.replaceChild(document.createElement('canvas'), i).getContext('2d'); or something
  343. # [17:35] * Dashiva shudders
  344. # [17:41] <Philip> What's the problem? :-)
  345. # [17:42] <Dashiva> You don't save the image data :P
  346. # [17:43] <Philip> s/or something/ctx.drawImage(i)/
  347. # [17:43] <Philip> There you go :-)
  348. # [17:43] <Dashiva> What if the image isn't 300x150? Huh? Huh?
  349. # [17:44] <Dashiva> Anyhows, I think we both agree it's a bad idea :)
  350. # [17:45] <Philip> Then you have to write more lines of code, since DOM doesn't do nice method chaining :-(
  351. # [17:47] <Philip> I'm not sure it's actually a bad idea - it's pretty much what e.g. http://cow.neondragon.net/stuff/reflection/ does
  352. # [17:48] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@83.227.33.203) (Ping timeout)
  353. # [17:52] <Dashiva> Yeah, but that's just a static one-time change, it could just as well be done by modifying the image file
  354. # [17:54] <Philip> I guess it needs animated reflective water ripples to be more convincing
  355. # [17:54] <Dashiva> hehe
  356. # [17:54] <Philip> which really needs OpenGL
  357. # [17:54] <Dashiva> Water reflections are the new dropshadows
  358. # [17:55] <Philip> Just as CSS is getting close to supporting drop shadows and rounded corners, they go out of fashion and everyone wants reflections instead
  359. # [17:56] <Dashiva> Actually, I can see it now. A rotating sphere with water in the bottom, and the image hovering above the water
  360. # [17:56] <Philip> How is a rotating sphere different from a static sphere?
  361. # [17:57] <Philip> assuming it's perfect and is rotating around its centre
  362. # [17:57] <Dashiva> The rotation creates the waves
  363. # [17:58] <Philip> Oh, I guess it'd do something like that if it's not frictionless
  364. # [17:58] <Philip> but friction is hard :-(
  365. # [17:59] <Philip> I think it'd be neat to have something like a Mii that you can embed in a web page
  366. # [17:59] <Dashiva> That sounds like a use case for embedded SVG
  367. # [17:59] <Philip> But it has to be 3D!
  368. # [18:00] <Dashiva> Can't you use SVG animation to fake it? :)
  369. # [18:00] * Philip thinks skeletal animation in JavaScript might be a little bit painful in terms of performance
  370. # [18:01] <Philip> (since you need several matrix multiplications per vertex)
  371. # [18:01] <Philip> Actually, I suppose this is where it's helpful if you can offload all the maths into programmable vertex shaders or something...
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  374. # [18:43] <Lachy> mjs, yt?
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  396. # [23:27] <anne> http://html5.jp/ seems interesting, http://www.html5.jp/library/dom_getElementsByClassName.html for instance
  397. # [23:27] <anne> (from the screen shots it seems they patched IE to support getElementsByClassName)
  398. # [23:28] * Joins: jgraham_ (james@81.86.218.70)
  399. # [23:35] <anne> Philip, excanvas does check wether window.CanvasRenderingContext2D is defined
  400. # [23:38] <Philip> anne: That means if IE defines CanvasRenderingContext2D, all the pages currently using excanvas will start using IE's new implementation instead, which might act differently in ways that they find unacceptable
  401. # [23:39] <anne> the idea would be that IE does match existing browsers
  402. # [23:39] <Philip> Hopefully it wouldn't be too bad in practice, since people using <canvas> are presumably targetting Firefox and then adding excanvas for IE, so they'll only be relying on the common subset of functionality/bugs that Firefox and excanvas share
  403. # [23:39] <anne> all tests combined we have something like 700
  404. # [23:40] <Philip> Existing browsers don't match those tests, so they're aren't necessarily helpful :-)
  405. # [23:42] <Philip> It'd be nice if e.g. Mozilla could use (some of) the tests automatedly, to avoid accidentally totally breaking a feature without noticing
  406. # [23:42] <Philip> (but I don't want to put a lot of work myself into making that happen, since it's their problem more than mine)
  407. # [23:58] * Quits: jgraham_ (james@81.86.218.70) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  408. # Session Close: Sun Dec 02 00:00:00 2007

The end :)