/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-12-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 05 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  21. # [01:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: fyi i'm starting work on the server side
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  26. # [01:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie - cool
  27. # [01:46] <MikeSmith> Sorry for not having gotten to it
  28. # [01:46] <Hixie> no worries
  29. # [01:47] <Philip> "Passed: 2452. Failed: 249. Todo: 5" - hooray, not too many more tests to delete before Mozilla can pass 100%
  30. # [01:48] <mjs> heh
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  34. # [02:22] <Philip> "Passed: 2444. Failed: 91. Todo: 73"
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  36. # [02:35] * gavin cheers
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  41. # [02:48] <Philip> "Passed: 2440. Failed: 0. Todo: 151" - whoo
  42. # [02:48] <gavin> have you filed the bug yet? :)
  43. # [02:48] <Philip> Assuming not too many of these break on non-Linuxes, I guess they should be useful as regression tests
  44. # [02:49] <Philip> gavin: Not yet, and I need to go to sleep an hour ago so it'll have to wait until tomorrow :-)
  45. # [02:49] <gavin> alright
  46. # [02:49] <gavin> be sure to CC me when you do
  47. # [02:50] <Philip> Okay, will do
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  53. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> can anybody recommend good blog search engines that you use?
  54. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> I mostly use google blogsearch these days
  55. # [03:14] <MikeSmith> and don't know what all else is out there
  56. # [03:14] <mjs> I use google blog search and technorati
  57. # [03:14] <mjs> the latter when I don't mind seeing even the trash posts on a topic
  58. # [03:14] <Hixie> i use google alerts
  59. # [03:14] <mjs> well yeah, google alerts mainly
  60. # [03:14] <Hixie> have one for whatwg and one for html5
  61. # [03:15] <mjs> I only have an alert for "webkit"
  62. # [03:15] <mjs> that consumes enough of my time
  63. # [03:15] <Hixie> hah
  64. # [03:15] <MikeSmith> mjs, Hixie - how often do you have them sent? once a day?
  65. # [03:15] <mjs> yeah daily
  66. # [03:16] <mjs> when bored I also do technorati and google blogsearch for "webkit" and "safari"
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  68. # [03:17] <Hixie> i have them sent in realtime
  69. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I'm using the following search terms with Google to look for HTML5-related things. Wondering if it's overkill to do, e.g., "html5" OR "html 5" as far a google goes
  70. # [03:21] <Hixie> i just search for "html5"
  71. # [03:21] <Hixie> dunno if i'm missing stuff
  72. # [03:21] <Hixie> i might be
  73. # [03:21] <gavin> google will return resuls for "html 5" if you search for "html5", afaik
  74. # [03:21] <gavin> maybe not ranked as highly
  75. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> OK
  76. # [03:22] <Hixie> gavin: yeah but that's not the same as alerts
  77. # [03:22] <gavin> ok, I don't know what alerts does
  78. # [03:22] <gavin> I thought it just did a google query and sent you the new results every day
  79. # [03:23] <gavin> I suppose what it really does is top secret :)
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  83. # [03:48] <hober> Sometimes I fear that "vast browser-wing conspiracy" will be my only long-lasting contribution to HTML5.
  84. # [03:49] <hober> heh. meant that for #whatwg
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  92. # [03:57] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
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  99. # [04:07] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
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  114. # [07:02] <Hixie> "HTML5 is not backwards compatable" - http://warpspire.com/features/html5-css3/
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  119. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> so "HTML5 is not backwards compatable" because...
  120. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> "... there is no HTML 4 or XHTML 1 equivelent of a <section />"
  121. # [07:17] <mjs> oh no
  122. # [07:17] <mjs> time to explain the compatibility Design Principles again
  123. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> time to explain basic logic maybe
  124. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> since instead of mentioning section specifically, he might just as well say, "there is no HTML 4 or XHTML 1 equivalent for any new element that might possibly be added"
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  129. # [07:41] * anne-mac wonders if the Forms TF is still alive
  130. # [07:42] <Hixie> you're one sixth of it :-)
  131. # [07:43] <Hixie> you could just resolve that xforms and wf2 are both perfect from the point of view of arch consistency with xforms transitional, and see who complains
  132. # [07:43] <mjs> heh
  133. # [07:43] <mjs> I didn't reply to your email cause I agree with the charter
  134. # [07:43] <mjs> but I guess I should have replied
  135. # [07:43] <anne-mac> maybe that's it
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  141. # [08:26] <Lachy> DanC, yt? regarding your comment http://www.alistapart.com/comments/previewofhtml5?page=3#26
  142. # [08:28] <Lachy> how do you possibly expect us to finish the spec, write a full testsuite and achieve 2 interoperable implementations within 3 years?
  143. # [08:32] <mjs> I would be surprised if WebKit has a complete, fully conforming implementation by then
  144. # [08:32] <mjs> but I think CR is a more interesting milestone than REC
  145. # [08:33] <Hixie> for the spec, CR is the only milestone that really matters.
  146. # [08:34] <mjs> well, I can see how for content authors, "when can we expect to have this widely available" is an interesting question
  147. # [08:34] <mjs> it's too bad that it's so hard to answer that when it comes to open standards
  148. # [08:34] <Hixie> that answer will differ for each section
  149. # [08:34] <Hixie> some sections will have the answer "never" (and will in due course be dropped)
  150. # [08:34] <Hixie> others have the answer "yesterday"
  151. # [08:34] <Hixie> e.g. much of the stuff that was in HTML 3.2
  152. # [08:36] <mjs> Still, I wish we could cite some number smaller than 10-15 years
  153. # [08:37] <Lachy> mjs, next year we can say 9-14 :-)
  154. # [08:37] <mjs> clearly that doesn't play well with the audience when cited out of context
  155. # [08:37] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/TIMETABLE says CR in 2012
  156. # [08:38] <Hixie> and last call in 2009
  157. # [08:38] <Hixie> so you could cite those numbers
  158. # [08:38] <Hixie> i changed the faq a few hours ago to point to the 2012 number first
  159. # [08:39] * mjs is reading over the listapart comments with interest
  160. # [08:39] <mjs> why the 3 years from LC to CR?
  161. # [08:39] <mjs> (I know, I'm being *such* an engineering manager right now - clearly I've lost sight of my roots)
  162. # [08:40] <Lachy> I tried to explain that the 10-15 years was due to the requirement for implementation and test suite, but some people seem to miss that point
  163. # [08:40] <mjs> I could see 1 year to process LC feedback and achieve at least initial CR, but 3?
  164. # [08:40] <Hixie> mjs: it's based on what i can optimistically do as a single person compared to what the csswg did as a committee
  165. # [08:41] <Hixie> mjs: and the expected volume of comments on html5 vs css2.1
  166. # [08:41] <Hixie> mjs: (i.e. i expect many more comments, but expect to go quicker per comment, so what took about 6 years in css should be doable in 3)
  167. # [08:42] <mjs> did css2.1 take 6 years to the first CR or to the most recent (hopefully final) CR?
  168. # [08:42] <mjs> (wondering which one you have in mind)
  169. # [08:43] <Hixie> most recent
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  172. # [08:43] <mjs> so first CR might be sooner? (or is HTML5 comment stream expected to be more steady so there's no premature illusion of being done?)
  173. # [08:44] <Hixie> the timetable only includes the "real" milestones
  174. # [08:45] <Hixie> we could easily have many other milestones in there
  175. # [08:45] <Hixie> the "cr" in that timetable is when i'd expect to stop editing regularly
  176. # [08:47] <mjs> sadly it's hard to turn all this into a clear message
  177. # [08:47] <Hixie> see the faq for my best effort attempt
  178. # [08:50] <mjs> not a bad attempt
  179. # [08:50] <mjs> but not a sound bite either
  180. # [08:50] <Hixie> feel free to make it better :-)
  181. # [08:50] <Hixie> i'm a spec weenie, not a marketting guy :-)
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  183. # [08:52] <mjs> I'm too honest to make a good marketing guy
  184. # [08:53] <Hixie> "OTOH, construction of The Cathedral of St. John The Divine was started in 1892 and it is still not yet completeted, yet it functions fully. Maybe HTML5 will be the St. John’s of the web." -- http://www.alistapart.com/comments/previewofhtml5?page=4#40
  185. # [09:00] <mjs> definitely a mixed bag of responses in the comments
  186. # [09:00] <mjs> some positive responses
  187. # [09:01] <mjs> negative-ish ones basically fall into "omg 10 years is too long", "I like div soup" and "I wish Microsoft supported standards better"
  188. # [09:03] <mjs> linking blog posts seem more positive on average than comments on the site afaict
  189. # [09:03] <mjs> anyway
  190. # [09:03] <Lachy> DanC, the markup on the html wg page is broken. See http://www.alistapart.com/comments/previewofhtml5?page=5#43
  191. # [09:03] <mjs> back to the grindstone
  192. # [09:05] <mjs> the comments tell me that Lachy's article was a much-needed piece of educational outreach and that more may be needed
  193. # [09:06] <Lachy> Hixie, is Vlad wrong about this being conforming? http://www.alistapart.com/comments/previewofhtml5?page=5#43
  194. # [09:07] <Lachy> IIRC, the spec says headings need to be used in order.
  195. # [09:07] <Hixie> it's certainly defined what that means
  196. # [09:07] <Hixie> i forget if it's conforming, hang on
  197. # [09:08] <Hixie> "Sections may contain headers of any rank, but authors are strongly encouraged to either use only h1 elements, or to use elements of the appropriate rank for the section's nesting level."
  198. # [09:08] <Hixie> so it's currently conforming
  199. # [09:08] <Hixie> i don't mind making it non-conforming, send mail
  200. # [09:11] <Lachy> ok. I thought it was already, it definitely should be.
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  203. # [09:49] <Hixie> i don't understand karl's e-mail
  204. # [09:50] <Hixie> i agree that those use cases are things we should handle, that's why the spec is designed the way it is
  205. # [09:50] <anne-mac> I guess he wonders how you can ensure the correct order in face of copy and paste, etc.
  206. # [09:51] <Hixie> simply by always using <h1>...
  207. # [09:51] <anne-mac> I know
  208. # [09:52] <Hixie> you can't copy and paste an <h6>-headed-block and an <h1>-headed-block next to each other without checking anyway, since you don't know what order they'll be in (i.e. <h1>-then-<h6> means something different than <h1>-then-<h6>)
  209. # [09:52] <Hixie> so...
  210. # [09:52] <Hixie> oh well
  211. # [09:52] <Hixie> nn
  212. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> Lachy - problem with HTML WG page as my fault
  213. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> and it wasn't really a markup problem, it was just a borked URL in the link to the Design Principles WD
  214. # [09:55] <Lachy> MikeSmith, ok
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  230. # [10:42] <Lachy> wow, articles like this annoy me http://24ways.org/2007/my-other-christmas-present-is-a-definition-list
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  237. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - running http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ through validator.nu against HTML5, I get:
  238. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> "Bad value irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg for attribute href on element a: UNREGISTERED_IANA_SCHEME in SCHEME."
  239. # [11:13] <Philip> Is that incorrect, or is it just unhelpful?
  240. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> does the spec really say that only registered schemes in values are conformant?
  241. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> Philip - helpful
  242. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> just that the irc scheme is supported in browsers
  243. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> and in use in existing content
  244. # [11:14] <Lachy> MikeSmith, irc:// is not registered http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html
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  246. # [11:14] <Lachy> it really should be registered, since it's widely deployed already
  247. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> yeah
  248. # [11:16] <Lachy> MikeSmith, there's a draft for it, but AFAICT, it never got published as an RFC http://www.w3.org/Addressing/draft-mirashi-url-irc-01.txt
  249. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> but in the mean time, it would be nice to not have conformance checkers flag it as an error
  250. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> I don't think HTML5 itself says that href values must only use registered schemes
  251. # [11:18] <Lachy> it would be a useful feature for checking typos, like if you typed href="htp://..." instead of http:, but I'm not sure if it should only use the IANA registry\
  252. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> the fact that validator.nu is flagging it as an error and not a warning makes me believe Henri has probably got a reason for it
  253. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> HTML5 just says "The href attribute on a hyperlink element must have a value that is a URI (or IRI)."
  254. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> As far as I remember, the URI/IRI spec doesn't say that they can only contain registered schemes.
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  262. # [12:17] <Hixie> Each URI begins with a scheme name that refers to a specification for
  263. # [12:17] <Hixie> assigning identifiers within that scheme.
  264. # [12:17] <Hixie> The scheme registry maintains the mapping between scheme names and
  265. # [12:17] <Hixie> their specifications.
  266. # [12:17] <Hixie> -- http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt (3.1:1 and 3.1:3)
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  270. # [12:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IRI schemes must be registered or must start with "x-", IIRC
  271. # [12:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: or perhaps it was that the unregistered ones need to contain a '-'
  272. # [12:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: anyway, if there's a list of Support Existing Content de facto IRI schemes that I should whitelist in defiance of the RFCs, I could do that
  273. # [12:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: javascript: is already allowed
  274. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> about the registration constraint, according to RFC 3986 and 3987, you mean?
  275. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> irc: should be whitelisted, if it comes to that
  276. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> I think
  277. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> but I can't find any assertion in RFC 3986 that schemes must be registered
  278. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> that UNREGISTERED_IANA_SCHEME thing is a Java error, right?
  279. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> from a Java library of some kind, I mean?
  280. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> that is, not some constraint check that you have added to the code yourself?
  281. # [12:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp35 says non-IETF schema names need to have a hyphen in them
  282. # [12:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the error comes from the Jena IRI lib
  283. # [12:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and in general, it appears that the Jena IRI guy read the RFCs very carefully
  284. # [12:32] <hsivonen> s/schema/scheme/
  285. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> as far I can see, BCP 35 defines a process for registering scheme names
  286. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> it does not define a what a conformant unregistered URI is
  287. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> but I'm reading it right now anyway
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  289. # [12:36] <hsivonen> "Each URI begins with a scheme name that refers to a specification for assigning identifiers within that scheme.
  290. # [12:36] <hsivonen> "
  291. # [12:36] <hsivonen> "The scheme registry maintains the mapping between scheme names and their specifications.
  292. # [12:36] <hsivonen> "
  293. # [12:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it's quite possible that an IRI5 spec is needed in due course. for example, the restrictions that IRI compliance places on javascript: are unhelpful
  294. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah
  295. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> very much a case of the RFCs being broken if they do in fact make actual use of irc: and javascript: in existing content non-conformant
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  297. # [12:43] <hsivonen> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/De_facto_IRI_schemes
  298. # [12:43] <hsivonen> please fill in other cases you might find
  299. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK, will do
  300. # [12:45] <hsivonen> I'll fix irc: after lunch
  301. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - as I read it at least, BCP 35 is not asserting that any given unregistered scheme name that lacks a dash is non-conformant; it's instead saying (1) that IETF-registered scheme names must not contain a dash and (2) that scheme names for "schemes registered in alternative trees" must be identified by a unique prefix, followed by a dash, followed by some identifier unique within that alternative.
  302. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you analyzed Web content for IRI schemes by any chance?
  303. # [12:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, I can't find a clear sentence requiring registration, either
  304. # [12:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in general, for HTML5 validation whether to require IANA registration is a practical judgment call
  305. # [12:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it is feasible to require language tags and charsets to be registered
  306. # [12:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it isn't feasible to require MIME types to be registered
  307. # [12:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: apparently, it isn't feasible for IRI schemes, either
  308. # [12:52] <hsivonen> but I'm hoping I could get away with a whitelist instead of opening it to everything
  309. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - seems like maybe not, since neither BCP 35 or RFC 3986 seem to say that only registered names are conformant. BCP 35 does not seem to say anything at all about unregistered schemes. It seems to only be defining rules for registered names.
  310. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - whitelist + emitting a warning for others (rather than error) would seem appropriate
  311. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> Is there a way you can emit a warning instead of an error for this particular check?
  312. # [12:55] <hsivonen> the bigger problem that registration as such is that the draft registrations for irc and javascript languish instead of making it through the system swiftly
  313. # [12:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the infrastructure does not support warnings for these checks
  314. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> OK
  315. # [12:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: changing that would not be pretty :-(
  316. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, I figured that was probably so
  317. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - Another thing I've been wanting to ask Hixie: If <meta@http-equiv=Content-Type...> is not conformant according to HTML5, then the mass of content out there that has instances of that in it are all going to fail conformance-checking, right?
  318. # [13:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes, changing the doctype is not enough to become conferming ATM, you also need to change the meta charset thingy
  319. # [13:01] <hsivonen> conforming even
  320. # [13:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've argued that for compat with legacy markup generation code we should make the old-style long form conforming
  321. # [13:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Hixie has disagreed so far
  322. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> Yeah, I would argue for that too
  323. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> Otherwise, what I fear conformance checkers will do is just add an option 'Ignore error messages about <meta http-equiv="Content-Type">'
  324. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> rather than the maintainer getting 500 messages a week from users bitching about the checker
  325. # [13:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: well, the #1 contender issue for that is the requirement to have wrapper <p>s in more places than in HTML 4.01 Transitional
  326. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> I've not run into that problem so far with pages I've checked with validator.nu
  327. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> So I guess in instances I author, it's something I'm already doing right :)
  328. # [13:06] <hsivonen> me too :-)
  329. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> so to hell with all the other people who mark stuff up in such a way that it causes them to run into that
  330. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> sucks for them
  331. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> too bad
  332. # [13:07] * MikeSmith is kidding of course
  333. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> the best measure of some of those cases is going to be the maintainers of conformance checkers, really
  334. # [13:10] <Philip> Should the HTML4/XHTML1/etc doctypes be conforming HTML5 too? Then people wouldn't have any necessary changes to make before being conforming HTML5
  335. # [13:12] <hsivonen> Philip: yeah, that's the obvious next question. and politically, it wouldn't fly. at least not easily
  336. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> But there is a finite set of them
  337. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> Though I guess it comes down to the supported vs. conformant distinction
  338. # [13:14] <Philip> An anonymous developer should set up a politically incorrect fork of the conformance checker, and see if authors like it more
  339. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> true
  340. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> but it does make sense to have automated checkers flagging instances of this stuff -- markup cluttered with unnecessary and arcane information that browsers just discard or ignore anyway
  341. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> there should be some means to discourage use of that markup
  342. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> and if conformance checkers don't flag it, there won't be
  343. # [13:21] <Philip> There are far more significant errors on most web pages, so perhaps more benefit would come from a conformance checker that people will use more often because it doesn't complain at them so much about minor things with little practical benefit, rather than a conformance checker which flags more issues and drives away more users
  344. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> Philip - aye
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  348. # [13:29] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme#Unofficial_but_common_URI_schemes
  349. # [13:34] <hsivonen> well, it looks like trying to enforce the IANA registry is pointless
  350. # [13:35] <hsivonen> and using wikipedia as the registry would be arbitrary
  351. # [13:35] <hsivonen> sign
  352. # [13:35] <hsivonen> sigh even
  353. # [13:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's your take on backslashes in file: URLs?
  354. # [13:38] <hsivonen> it seems to me I have to do IRI checking the other way round
  355. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> I have seen enough questions on mailing lists about backslashes in file: URLs to make me think that it might be another case of be liberal rather that trying to educate
  356. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen
  357. # [13:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I see
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  361. # [13:52] <hsivonen> mjs: regarding WebKit video selection:
  362. # [13:52] <hsivonen> bug #1: video/mp4 is skipped if it declares codecs: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/video-selection/source-mp4-params.html
  363. # [13:54] <hsivonen> bug #2: Ogg in <source> never plays even with XiphQT
  364. # [13:54] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/video-selection/source-ogv.html
  365. # [13:54] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/video-selection/source-ogg.html
  366. # [13:54] <hsivonen> those two don't play when
  367. # [13:54] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/video-selection/src-ogg.html
  368. # [13:54] <hsivonen> and
  369. # [13:54] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/video-selection/src-ogv.html
  370. # [13:54] <hsivonen> do
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  376. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - another issue with <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" ...> being nonconformant is that the XSLT spec says:
  377. # [14:19] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@212.17.132.42)
  378. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> says that for xsl:output method="html" that:
  379. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> [[If there is a HEAD element, then the html output method should add a META element immediately after the start-tag of the HEAD element specifying the character encoding actually used. For example,
  380. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> <HEAD>
  381. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=EUC-JP">
  382. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> ...]]
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  384. # [14:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: method='html' is not appropriate for HTML5 anyway
  385. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - why not?
  386. # [14:22] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@212.17.132.42)
  387. # [14:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: It cannot generate <!DOCTYPE html>. I don't remember if there were other issues.
  388. # [14:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oh yeah, now I remember
  389. # [14:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: method='html' wants the elemnts to be in no namespace as opposed to the XHTML namespace
  390. # [14:25] <hsivonen> the XSLT4HTML5 sample program that comes with the Validator.nu parser solves both problems
  391. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> I do the following to deal with the doctype problem:
  392. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> <xsl:template match="/">
  393. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> <xsl:text disable-output-escaping="yes">&lt;!DOCTYPE html&gt;</xsl:text>
  394. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> <xsl:text>&#10;</xsl:text>
  395. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> <xsl:apply-templates/>
  396. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> </xsl:template>
  397. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> ugly hack but it works
  398. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> learnt that from Sam Ruby
  399. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - are you saying that for method="html", one would want for some reason for the output to be in the XHTML namespace?
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  401. # [14:36] <Philip> You would want the input to be in the XHTML namespace, assuming you're using XHTML5 and not some other undefined XMLisation of HTML5
  402. # [14:36] <Philip> Don't know if that's actually the problem here, though
  403. # [14:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm saying that one would want the tree that results from the transformation to have its elements in the XHTML namespace
  404. # [14:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and then serializing to HTML5 should be a serializer-level issue
  405. # [14:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: your transformation program shouldn't have to deal with serialization details
  406. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I see. But when I run method=html transformations on XHTML files, XSLT engines do seem to preserve the namespace in the result tree
  407. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> and I need run a namespace-stripping template match to strip the namespace in fact
  408. # [14:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you mean that if you change to method='xml', the namespace is the XHTML namespace?
  409. # [14:43] <hsivonen> XSLT4HTML5 makes things work
  410. # [14:44] * Parts: timbl (timbl@128.30.6.53)
  411. # [14:44] <hsivonen> the output is HTML5 and you write the transformation to target the HTML5-compatible subset of XHTML5
  412. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - If I run an identity transform on an XHTML-namespaced source file, the result tree is in the XHTML namespace both when method=xml and method=html
  413. # [14:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and what does the method=html serialization look like?
  414. # [14:46] <hsivonen> (IIRC, Gecko doesn't comply with the spec here to make things work)
  415. # [14:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - for a minimal input doc like this:
  416. # [14:49] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@212.17.132.42) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  417. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
  418. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
  419. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">
  420. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> <head>
  421. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> <title>FOO</title>
  422. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> </head>
  423. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> <body>
  424. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> <p>FOO</p>
  425. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> </body>
  426. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> </html>
  427. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> that gets serialized for output=html like this:
  428. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">
  429. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> <head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  430. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> <title>FOO</title>
  431. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> </head>
  432. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> <body>
  433. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> <p>FOO</p>
  434. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> </body>
  435. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> </html>
  436. # [14:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks broken as designed to me
  437. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - how so?
  438. # [14:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: we want this:
  439. # [14:52] <hsivonen> <!DOCTYPE html>
  440. # [14:52] <hsivonen> <html lang='en'>
  441. # [14:52] <hsivonen> <head><meta charset='utf-8'>
  442. # [14:52] <hsivonen> etc.
  443. # [14:52] <hsivonen> but that's from the future
  444. # [14:52] <hsivonen> the broken as designed part is
  445. # [14:53] <hsivonen> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en"
  446. # [14:53] <hsivonen> that stuff has no place in XSLT 1.0-era HTML
  447. # [14:54] <hsivonen> I think we should just concede that method='html' sucks and people should use an HTML5 serializer instead if they want HTML5
  448. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> OK, I see. Yeah, when processing it with XSLT, it is possible to strip all that during the transform, and to add the <!DOCTYPE html>
  449. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> I can imagine that some developers might want to use XSTL 1.0 tools to manage transformations to HTML5
  450. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> at least until the more appropriate tools are widely available
  451. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> e.g. packaged for Linux distributions
  452. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> and such
  453. # [14:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: well, if they want to use the XSLT tool to produce the serilization, they are in the land of hurt
  454. # [14:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what they should do is to take DOM or SAX output from the XSLT 1.0 engine and give it to an HTML5 serializer
  455. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> most developers already find themselves deep into the land of hurt already
  456. # [14:57] <Philip> You can't do much with DOM or SAX output if you're using command line processing tools
  457. # [14:57] * Philip guesses an xhtml2html command-line tool would be handy in that case
  458. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> yeh
  459. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> that would be the best case
  460. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> a simple standalone tool
  461. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> for the simple case, I mean
  462. # [14:58] <Philip> I guess it should preferably be non-Java
  463. # [14:59] <Philip> because Java isn't really great at doing quick command-line pipeline tools
  464. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> simple being if you don't have any need to manipulate the result tree before serializing
  465. # [14:59] <Philip> If you do need to, you do "xsltproc foo.xslt bar.xml | xhtml2html > bar.html"
  466. # [15:03] * Philip supposes xhtml2html would be far easier than html2xhtml
  467. # [15:08] <hsivonen> eventually, libxml2 needs to get an HTML5 parser and a serializer
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  469. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah
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  473. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - in the mean time, I guess I should just write a simple-case xhtmltohtml tool like Philip describes, using html5lib
  474. # [15:33] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@212.17.132.42)
  475. # [15:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: good idea
  476. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> starting from http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/python/parse.py
  477. # [15:45] <Philip> Does html5lib have a serialiser now?
  478. # [15:46] <Philip> (I just wrote my own for the spec-splitter, since I couldn't find one elsewhere)
  479. # [15:47] <Philip> Oh, looks like HTMLSerializer probably does that
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  488. # [16:51] <Philip> Are svn:// and svn+ssh:// official/unofficial URI schemes?
  489. # [16:52] <Philip> (They're not in the Wikipedia list, but I can't find other details either)
  490. # [16:54] <hsivonen> Philip: dunno. Do they conform to the generic IRI syntax?
  491. # [16:56] <Philip> hsivonen: I have no idea whatsoever
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  493. # [17:01] <hsivonen> for now I am assuming that only mailto:, data: and javascript: are exempt from the generic syntax
  494. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I remember one more that's supported here in Japan at least, in browsers running on handsets in the the KDDI/Au mobile network
  495. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> http://www.au.kddi.com/ezfactory/tec/spec/eznavi.html
  496. # [17:32] <MikeSmith> it's device:
  497. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> device:location in Au's browser causes the browser to initiate a query to the handset to get its GPS location
  498. # [17:34] <mjs> hsivonen: thanks for the details, I'll pass those test cases on to our <video> folks
  499. # [17:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it isn't obvious to me that the device scheme were incompatible with the generic syntax
  500. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I'm not sure that I understand what the generic syntax is
  501. # [17:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the examples seem to pass as generic IRIs
  502. # [17:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm not sure, either. :-)
  503. # [17:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I just trust the lib
  504. # [17:35] <hsivonen> mjs: thanks
  505. # [17:45] <hendry> MikeSmith: that location stuff interests me. more of it. :) in English
  506. # [17:45] <hendry> if possible
  507. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> hendry - I have no info on it in English. But it's dead simple, really. Just relies on browser support.
  508. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> take a look at the source for this page:
  509. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.net/gps/
  510. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> that's a minimal demo page I set up a while back
  511. # [17:47] * hendry wonders how to disable caching in apache and/or browser for JS dev
  512. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> no security around it at all
  513. # [17:48] <hendry> though i guess the user must iniatiate this url right?
  514. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> yeah, user has to click on a link
  515. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> but except for preferences you set on the device about whether you want to be informed each time a location, that's it
  516. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> if the browser supported scripting and XHR and user had device preferences set to not inform them about location query is initiated, they would not know
  517. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> but the browser does not support scription, so it's a moot point
  518. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> this is Openwave v6
  519. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> anyway, I got to wander off for a while
  520. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> back later
  521. # [17:52] <hendry> MikeSmith: thanks for the info
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  532. # [19:12] <mjs> good morning folks
  533. # [19:12] <ChrisWilson> good morning
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  535. # [19:18] <mjs> hi ChrisWilson
  536. # [19:18] <mjs> hello dbaron
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  563. # [22:30] <Hixie> hsivonen, MikeSmith: the main reason i don't want an htp-equiv="Content-Type" is to avoid redundant ways of doing the same thing -- if we want to deprecate it in due course, we should just ban it now
  564. # [22:32] <mjs> it does fall slightly afoul of making existing documents non-conforming for a slightly gratuitous reason
  565. # [22:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's your take on the validation results Sam Ruby posted?
  566. # [22:32] <mjs> even if they do what is currently a best practice
  567. # [22:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: a quick glance at the errors suggests that there are 2: meta charset in XHTML and lots and lots of inline stuff without paragraph wrappers
  568. # [22:35] <Hixie> well you know my take on mixing blocks and inlines without a block-level element
  569. # [22:36] <Hixie> i don't know how to handle the http-equiv=content-type case
  570. # [22:39] <gsnedders> I'd allow http-equiv=content-type, and require that the value MUST be text/html, with a charset parameter
  571. # [22:40] <hsivonen> gsnedders: that would still leave the question: what to do with Sam's case
  572. # [22:41] * gsnedders hasn't actually looked at that
  573. # [22:41] <mjs> what does Sam's case say?
  574. # [22:41] <hsivonen> his meta charset in non-conforming because he is trying to write a hybrid document so that the same bytes get served as text/html and application/xhtml+xml
  575. # [22:41] <Philip> For <meta charset> in XHTML, is it possible to say the value must be equal to whatever character encoding the XML layer chose to use?
  576. # [22:42] <hsivonen> mjs: it says <meta charset='utf-8'/> in application/xhtml+xml
  577. # [22:42] <Hixie> oh right
  578. # [22:42] <Hixie> his problem is the xml problem, not the legacy problem
  579. # [22:42] <Hixie> <-- was confoosed
  580. # [22:42] <hsivonen> Philip: possible but very bad from a clean layering point of view
  581. # [22:43] <mjs> ah, I see
  582. # [22:43] <Hixie> in sam's case he should just strip the meta charset
  583. # [22:43] <gsnedders> Philip: authors will easily get the wrong idea
  584. # [22:43] <Hixie> and use the mime type to set the charset
  585. # [22:43] <hsivonen> Philip: bad spec layering translates into bad software layering
  586. # [22:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: true
  587. # [22:51] <Hixie> "When reading the “differences” between version 4 and 5 I feel like we are going to lose a lot of time.
  588. # [22:51] <Hixie> There is no “semantic“, there is nothing that would make the useless union between contents and layout being split." -- http://www.fchouse.com/archives/html5-is-this-the-improvement
  589. # [22:51] <Hixie> that's especially funny given the people who are arguing that we're going too far into the theoretical
  590. # [22:53] <Hixie> "Let's hope that the new HTML 5 media nodes utilise Flash otherwise I feel that will be the end of Flash as we know it" -- http://www.talkphp.com/showthread.php?t=1615
  591. # [22:54] <mjs> Hixie: I... don't really understand that sentiment
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  593. # [23:00] <hsivonen> I identified four classes of errors in Sam's document
  594. # [23:03] <Dashiva> Hixie: Isn't he just suggesting using an XML toolchain instead of HTML in that html-must-die post he links to?
  595. # [23:06] <Hixie> it's a common suggestion
  596. # [23:07] <Dashiva> Yeah, but I don't see how that has to be and either/or with developing HTML (that is, the end format)
  597. # [23:07] <Hixie> wow, www-archive has 40 subscribers
  598. # [23:08] <Hixie> Dashiva: don't ask me :-)
  599. # [23:08] <Dashiva> True
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  602. # [23:25] * Philip gets fed up with canvas tests again
  603. # [23:27] <Philip> (but after some mild practical achievement, so I feel satisfied for now)
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  605. # [23:58] * DanC looks around for ChisWilson
  606. # [23:58] <DanC> er... ChrisWilson
  607. # [23:59] <DanC> MikeSmith, I don't think (missed) is useful in the schedule. The schedule is subject to negotiation, as it says; that milestone was renegotiated
  608. # [23:59] * DanC goes to fix...
  609. # Session Close: Thu Dec 06 00:00:01 2007

The end :)