/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-12-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 06 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> DanC - I can fix it
  4. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> good morning, btw
  5. # [00:00] <DanC> hi
  6. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> hei
  7. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> I'll fix it right now
  8. # [00:01] <DanC> hm... the 2007-05 basis for review... is it really a deliverable? I suppose it's a milestone.
  9. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> Maybe I should change the section title to Milestones
  10. # [00:01] <DanC> ok, you have write lock on 1.116
  11. # [00:02] <DanC> Milestones works for me, though I think it's ok to implicitly assume deliverable=milestone
  12. # [00:02] <DanC> I want to fix the nav bar too
  13. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> OK, will check it what I have in just a minute
  14. # [00:02] <DanC> the $Revision$ thingy at the bottom looks horked
  15. # [00:03] <DanC> wierd... my emacs buffer shows $Revision: 1.116 $ but my web browser shows $Revision: 1.7 $ even after I shift-reload
  16. # [00:04] <DanC> emacs has $Revision: 1.116 $ of $Date: 2007/12/05 09:52:39 $ ...
  17. # [00:04] <DanC> vs $Revision: 1.7 $ of $Date: 2007/12/05 10:04:07 $
  18. # [00:04] * DanC scratches head
  19. # [00:05] * Quits: jgraham_ (james@81.86.218.70) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  20. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> DanC - was messing around a bit with things yesterday. Please hang on minute while I get stuff checked in
  21. # [00:06] <DanC> ok. hanging on
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  24. # [00:11] * DanC checks that the next meeting is mostly all set...
  25. # [00:11] <DanC> were minutes from 29 Nov announced?
  26. # [00:12] * DanC doesn't see an announcement
  27. # [00:13] <DanC> good thing our meeting records don't contain binding decisions, I guess
  28. # [00:14] * DanC finds http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-minutes.html ...
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  30. # [00:14] <DanC> we did discuss next meeting, didn't we? I wonder why I don't see it.
  31. # [00:15] <DanC> ah... there it is... "next meeting: 6 Dec, Chris W to chair"
  32. # [00:16] * DanC double-checks the time... http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#D20071206 ...
  33. # [00:17] <DanC> 7:00pm-8:30pm/00:00-01:30 UTC
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  35. # [00:19] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG meets next 4p Seattle time Thu, 6 Dec (2007-12-07T00:00Z ) http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
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  37. # [00:20] <ChrisWilson> I'm around now.
  38. # [00:20] <DanC> ah. hi.
  39. # [00:22] <DanC> mike, tracker link is busted. goes to http://www.w4.org/html/wg/tracker/ . do you still have write lock on 1.116? (I guess I could ask CVS)
  40. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> DanC - just checked it in
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  42. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> DanC - note that the XHTML source file is now Overview.html
  43. # [00:23] <DanC> no.
  44. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> index.html is generated from that.
  45. # [00:23] <DanC> don't do that
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  47. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> DanC - hmm, OK
  48. # [00:23] <DanC> no. just one file.
  49. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> I see.
  50. # [00:24] <MikeSmith> I'll flip it back now
  51. # [00:26] <DanC> thanks
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  55. # [00:37] <MikeSmith> DanC - OK, I've checked back in
  56. # [00:38] * DanC sees 1.118
  57. # [00:41] <MikeSmith> DanC - yeah, 1.18 it should be
  58. # [00:41] <MikeSmith> and I fixed the tracker link too btw
  59. # [00:41] <DanC> I doubt 1.18. $Revision: 1.118 $ of $Date: 2007/12/05 23:34:56 $
  60. # [00:41] <DanC> we've done >100 revisions
  61. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> so I missed a 1. but yeah, we've done more than 100. I've done a lot in the last couple days, from checking in small changes.
  62. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> If that's a problem, I guess I can just change to checking in batches of changes.
  63. # [00:44] <DanC> no
  64. # [00:44] <DanC> no problem with hundreds of revisions
  65. # [00:44] <DanC> I'd expect ~3 / week on average
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  68. # [00:52] <MikeSmith> DanC - fwiw, I guess I tend to check in small changes because it makes it easier to revert each change, e.g., by doing stuff like "cvs diff -r N.NNN | patch -R" to revert just one small change. And because in reviewing diffs in a revision history to get an overview of what the actual changes have been, I personally find it quicker to do with a bunch of small changes rather than reading through giant diffs.
  69. # [00:53] <DanC> exactly
  70. # [00:53] <DanC> so if 3 turns into 25 or 50 some weeks, I have no trouble with that.
  71. # [00:53] <MikeSmith> DanC - cool
  72. # [00:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - date of first rec for HTML 4.0 was 18 Dec 1997, I think
  73. # [00:54] <DanC> oh yeah... birthday party ideas and all that
  74. # [00:57] <MikeSmith> and first rec of XML was 10 Feb 1998
  75. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> DanC - was the XML WG the only one that ever had someone titled "Technical Lead"?
  76. # [00:59] <DanC> I think so
  77. # [01:00] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 1.70 "This list of issues is largely obsolete in favor of tracker's agenda planning view ..."
  78. # [01:01] <DanC> the telcon schedule migrate to the WG hompage, I suppose; not urgent
  79. # [01:02] <DanC> MikeSmith, do you feel like announcing tomorrow's telcon? I expect ChrisWilson would be happy for you to do just like http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0405.html
  80. # [01:02] <DanC> maybe send it to public-html-wg-announce
  81. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> DanC - sure, yeah, I can do that
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  102. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> this week's telcon is actually 0:00-1:30Z on Friday (18:00-19:30 US/Central)
  103. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> DanC
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  106. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> 01:00-2:30am CET
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  110. # [04:52] <DanC> actually? as opposed to what, MikeSmith ?
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  113. # [04:57] <DanC> MikeSmith, did you announce the teleconference? I don't see it.
  114. # [04:58] <DanC> MikeSmith, re "2007-06 HTML5 First Public Working Draft [note 1]" , we did our 1st WD. it wasn't the spec, but it was a WD. let's delete that line
  115. # [04:59] <DanC> I no longer think 2008-06 is a good guess for last call. I should tell the Hypertext CG this friday what our new best guess is. advice is welcome.
  116. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> DanC - OK, will delete it. But my rationale for having it there was that it was a published date in the charter and so on record, and wanted to address the not unlikely potential question from readers, of "What happened to the 2007-06 pubdate?"
  117. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> about the agenda, I wil have it out in 10 minutes
  118. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> about "actually", I meant because the time slot for most of the meetings over the last couple months seems to have been the 17:00-18:30Z Thursday one
  119. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> with Friday one being skipped
  120. # [05:08] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, the 2007-06 date in the charter is for the HTML Specification -- it's on the row with header "HTML" under the header "Specification"
  121. # [05:08] <Hixie> glad to see you agree that 2008 Q2 is not plausible, though, DanC :-)
  122. # [05:08] * Hixie had Last Call in October 2009 on his timetable
  123. # [05:08] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/0045.html
  124. # [05:09] <Hixie> (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/0045.html)
  125. # [05:09] <Hixie> (oops, didn't mean to paste twice)
  126. # [05:10] <DanC> the answer to "What happened to the 2007-06 pubdate?" is... hey! it's gone. Did you get rid of the "subject to negotiation" language?
  127. # [05:10] <Hixie> (the charter also says "Note: The group will document significant changes from this initial schedule on the group home page.")
  128. # [05:11] <DanC> I have been keeping the log of changes to the schedule under history, and just the resulting schedule under schedule
  129. # [05:11] <DanC> but I suppose other presentations are reasonable
  130. # [05:13] <DanC> from 1.77 and previous: <p>Note: The working group schedule is an estimate based on the <a href="http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#deliverables">schedule in the charter</a> and subject to change.</p>
  131. # [05:14] * DanC bisects... finds it disappeared in 1.95 ...
  132. # [05:14] <Hixie> is the cvs log available publicly?
  133. # [05:14] <DanC> no
  134. # [05:14] <Hixie> :-(
  135. # [05:15] <Hixie> would be cool if it was
  136. # [05:15] <DanC> yes; it's just technical/admin foo that prevents it. see http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/129 Access control and version control: an over-constrained problem?
  137. # [05:18] <DanC> the commit message for 1.95, "Added surveys link." doesn't mention taking "subject to change out", mike. tsk tsk. ;-)
  138. # [05:19] <DanC> MikeSmith, "request to..." is an odd way to name/label issues. hmm.
  139. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> DanC - I'm happy to change the labels on those if you have preferred wording
  140. # [05:20] <DanC> maybe call it "ogg as recommended format" or some such?
  141. # [05:20] <DanC> "request to ..." suggested it was just something for one guy, but the follow-on discussion shows it _is_ something that merits a WG-wide issue.
  142. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> DanC - OK, trus, sounds good to me. Shorter is better for this kind of stuff
  143. # [05:21] * Quits: sbuluf (goxawpy@200.49.132.86) (Ping timeout)
  144. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> agenda sent
  145. # [05:21] <DanC> the js/perf thing... I guess I need to study that more. I don't see the issue yet.
  146. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> DanC - yeah, we need a better problem statement than what Mikko has provided thus far
  147. # [05:22] <DanC> perhaps it's a candidate requirement? i.e. that the canvas API meet certain performance measurements?
  148. # [05:24] <DanC> of course, we can only measure performance of implementations. (I suppose you could prove some theoretical bounds on algorithms, but I doubt that's what he's after)
  149. # [05:24] <DanC> anyway... is this canvas performance thing something the whole group should track and decide on? it doesn't look that way, to me.
  150. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> I think it is.
  151. # [05:25] <Hixie> yeah i was just wondering what i was supposed to do with that issue
  152. # [05:25] <DanC> ok, I'll take your word for it. but do work on the issue label.
  153. # [05:25] <Hixie> i mean, obviously perf in mobile devices is something that underlies everything in the spec
  154. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> At least the general issue of remaining aware of performance limitations of browsers running on constrained devices.
  155. # [05:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie - not sure that is obvious, actually
  156. # [05:25] <Hixie> ah, well, it is
  157. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> In what way?
  158. # [05:26] <DanC> "general issues" like that belong in the design principles. I guess we can track candidate design principles in tracker.
  159. # [05:26] <Hixie> not obvious, i mean, just that perf considerations are always taken into account
  160. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> OK
  161. # [05:26] <Hixie> just like security, accessibility, usability, etc
  162. # [05:26] <MikeSmith> yeah, I see what you mean
  163. # [05:26] <DanC> we already do talk about device independence in the design principles... let's search for "mobile" ...
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  165. # [05:27] <Hixie> i'm not sure what i can do with issues like issue-25
  166. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> DanC - one brief mention of mobile in HDP
  167. # [05:27] <Hixie> can we maybe split the "HTML 5 spec" product into two products, "HTML 5 spec" and "HTML 5 spec review" or something?
  168. # [05:27] <DanC> we can leave issue-25 in there for a little while, but if it doesn't get more clear, I'll be inclined to close it without action
  169. # [05:28] <DanC> I don't see the motivation for that split...
  170. # [05:28] <DanC> issue 25 is clearly not a spec issue
  171. # [05:28] <Hixie> ah ok
  172. # [05:28] <DanC> or: not clearly a spec issue
  173. # [05:28] <Hixie> then it should be in another component :-)
  174. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie, yeah
  175. # [05:29] <Hixie> i'm just trying to make sure that http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/1 only lists issues that i can deal with
  176. # [05:29] <DanC> yes, feels more like Principles/Requirements to me
  177. # [05:29] <mjs> I think to the degree that canvas performance in mobile devices could be improved, the HTML spec itself can't do much about it
  178. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> DanC - I can take an action to follow up with Mikko to ask what he suggests the WG should do about this
  179. # [05:29] <mjs> it's more a matter of the underlying graphics capabilities of the device, and the quality of the JavaScript implementation
  180. # [05:29] <DanC> er... that's too meta for me, MikeSmith
  181. # [05:29] <DanC> remember: issues don't belong to individuals; they belong to the group
  182. # [05:30] <DanC> when you add something to the issue tracker, it's no longer just whatever Mikko had in mind
  183. # [05:30] <DanC> I was happier when it was just an action on you to track it...
  184. # [05:30] <mjs> I personally can't think of anything we could do at the spec level that would specifically make <canvas> faster on mobile devices
  185. # [05:30] <mjs> I don't think the API design is really a factor in its performance
  186. # [05:30] <MikeSmith> I'm happy to close that issue.
  187. # [05:31] <mjs> so either what Mikko said should be closed with no action, or we should ask him to clarify
  188. # [05:31] <mjs> because it's not really actionable as is
  189. # [05:31] <MikeSmith> mjs - exactly
  190. # [05:32] * DanC re-filed it under requirements and closed it
  191. # [05:32] <mjs> (perf on mobile is clearly something I care about, and I do try to spot APIs that seem to needlessly create perf issues)
  192. # [05:33] <Hixie> DanC: btw, i had a question about what you want me to do with the issues exactly. when i deal with e-mail feedback, i save the e-mail until i've considered it, then reply to it and remove it from my list.
  193. # [05:33] <Hixie> DanC: what should i do with the issues?
  194. # [05:33] <Hixie> DanC: (speaking specifically of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/1 )
  195. # [05:34] <DanC> I haven't thought a whole lot about how to handle design issues yet; I've been focussed more on requirements/scope so far... but let's see...
  196. # [05:36] <DanC> I suppose I expect you to monitor all of the discussion sort of chaotically/randomly, and when you spot something you want to dig into, you'd encourage the topic to converge into one tracked issue (or a few issues)... and at some point, you'd say "I think I've seen most of the arguments on the pickle-juice-selinity issue, and I've chosen 23% for the following reasons"
  197. # [05:37] <DanC> and then either some magic informal process will emerge where the issue gets closed an nobody complains...
  198. # [05:37] <DanC> or the chairs formally propose to close it. (perhaps in big once-a-month batches)
  199. # [05:38] <Hixie> ok
  200. # [05:38] <Hixie> should i just mark the issue somehow once i've done the "I've chosen 23% for the following reasons" bit?
  201. # [05:38] <Hixie> would be useful to have a state between OPEN and CLOSED i guess
  202. # [05:38] <DanC> yes... I wonder how... hm...
  203. # [05:38] <Hixie> or i can just edit the top line of the description
  204. # [05:38] <mjs> it would be good if we could have states for "disposed of by editor" and "decision accepted"
  205. # [05:38] <mjs> or whatever
  206. # [05:39] <DanC> maybe you should mark it closed and add a comment, and then see if it sticks?
  207. # [05:39] <Hixie> sure
  208. # [05:39] <mjs> maybe people can just appeal closed issues to the group if they care enough
  209. # [05:39] <Hixie> well people should always be able to send new information, of course
  210. # [05:39] <DanC> yeah... people can appeal editors decisions
  211. # [05:40] <DanC> and maybe each proposal to publish a WD will include a proposal to formally decide on the issues that have gotten closed by the editor-and-friends
  212. # [05:40] <DanC> I dunno; I'm just noodling.
  213. # [05:42] <Hixie> seems reasonable to me
  214. # [05:42] <DanC> worth a try, anyway
  215. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> DanC - restored "subject to change" note
  216. # [05:43] <DanC> additional states is on the tracker todo list, but the devs have pushed back on it a few times, I think
  217. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> And I will try to be comprehensive on commit messages for future changes to that page
  218. # [05:43] <DanC> cool
  219. # [05:43] <DanC> thanks
  220. # [05:44] <DanC> don't spend too much time being "comprehensive"; I can always get the raw diffs. we'll tune as we go
  221. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> OK
  222. # [05:45] <DanC> but now you know I don't put stuff like "subject to change" in their just to hear the sound of the keys clicking. ;-)
  223. # [05:45] <DanC> there
  224. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> Understood
  225. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> looking at it now, still seems kinda odd to not list FPWD for HTML spec at all in the Milestones list
  226. # [05:46] <DanC> ooh... "IE8" is no longer in voldemort state
  227. # [05:47] <DanC> yes, I owe the Hypertext CG an estimate, and as a rule I put the estimates on the WG homepage before I send them to the HCG
  228. # [05:48] <DanC> 2008-03 is my best guess for spec 1st WD right now, I suppose. If you can check it with Chris Wilson tomorrow in the telcon, you can put it on the page now
  229. # [05:48] <DanC> (reminder: I won't be there.)
  230. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> DanC - I can maybe join HCG call if you want
  231. # [05:48] <DanC> if you like, sure. it's pretty boring, though
  232. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> If not important than I don't want to join the call.
  233. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> the HCG call
  234. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> and seems so, so I won't
  235. # [05:50] <DanC> right... I'll let you know if I need you to cover for me sometime
  236. # [05:50] <DanC> hmm.. request for audio recording of the telcon
  237. # [05:50] <DanC> I'm inclined to say "if you want to hear people breathing and such, you have to be there" but I dunno.
  238. # [05:52] * DanC is getting kinda sleepy...
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  241. # [05:56] * DanC wonders what's up with test suites...
  242. # [05:57] <DanC> about the TOC of /html/wg/ ... there's a Drafts link that doesn't go anywhere. I'm not fond of separating drafts from "current news"
  243. # [05:57] <DanC> and issues, actions, surveys, and wiki should go in Nearby
  244. # [05:58] <DanC> as should the new mailing lists... issue tracking and ... umm....
  245. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> DanC - just deleted Drafts link
  246. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> will move other stuff down into Nearby
  247. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> about testsuites, I can announce to the group today
  248. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> I would like to also create a new read-only list, public-html-checkins@
  249. # [06:00] * DanC is inclined to clean up http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-minutes.html a bit... but doesn't have energy just now
  250. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> for all automated checkin notifications of all changes to dev.w3.org/html5
  251. # [06:01] <Hixie> like the whatwg-tracker one?
  252. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> which we will also get an Atom feed for as bonus
  253. # [06:01] <DanC> I guess that's fairly customary, but I wonder if it's cost-effective, given RSS feeds and such
  254. # [06:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie - yeah
  255. # [06:01] <DanC> RSS feeds have much lower admin overhead
  256. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> DanC - we get a feed from the list
  257. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> is there some other existing way to easily get a feed for checkins?
  258. # [06:02] <DanC> yes, but you also get bounce messages, spam to prune from the archive, and other warts
  259. # [06:02] <Hixie> not if it's readonly
  260. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> yep
  261. # [06:03] <DanC> well, I'm not the one doing the work, so I guess I don't care how it gets done
  262. # [06:03] <DanC> as long as it doesn't put more important stuff at risk
  263. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> OK -- I don't think this will
  264. # [06:04] <Hixie> the whatwg one was pretty easy to set up
  265. # [06:04] <DanC> RSS feeds also don't involve a mailing list archive to store in perpetuity
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  267. # [06:05] <DanC> though since W3C already has a few hundred of those, one more doesn't cost much
  268. # [06:06] <DanC> I guess the main thing is to make sure there are some people actually using the commit list, so that if the spammers find some way to gunk it up, we'll hear about it
  269. # [06:08] * DanC sees one substantive message in public-html-testsuite. cool
  270. # [06:08] <DanC> the issue tracking mailing list is a hodge-podge
  271. # [06:11] <DanC> GR called my "please explain in detail" bluff re ISSUE-26. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-issue-tracking/2007Dec/0005.html
  272. # [06:11] <DanC> i'm reading it for the 3rd time, and I'm still not clear on what to think about it. I think I'm tired and should knock off for the day before I do something dangerous. ;-)
  273. # [06:19] <DanC> MikeSmith, did you attend the versioning session at the ftf?
  274. # [06:19] * DanC wonders what news on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4
  275. # [06:20] <DanC> hmm... http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes#anchor_please@@
  276. # [06:20] <Hixie> the versioning discussion in the f2f was basically a wash
  277. # [06:20] <DanC> ok
  278. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> DanC - did not attend
  279. # [06:20] <Hixie> (i couldn't get either side to actually propose any specific changes to the spec)
  280. # [06:21] <mjs> that's a whole lotta detail
  281. # [06:22] * DanC hoped to find time for some scribenick clean-up of that record, but thinks maybe stability is more important now that the customary 2 weeks to prepare ftf records is over
  282. # [06:23] <DanC> I don't see anything that looks like an action. that agrees with "a wash"
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  285. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> DanC - just reorganized links at top of WG page into "This page", "Nearby", and "Discussion"
  286. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> not pretty but functional I guess
  287. # [06:25] <DanC> ok, the IRC link might merit elaboration... i.e. move it to "this page" and make a little section pointing to logs and such. low priority.
  288. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> I really want to get rid of that sidebar and move whatever is useful from it into the body of the page
  289. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> DanC - OK
  290. # [06:25] <MikeSmith> anyway, seems to me way too much text in the sidebar
  291. # [06:25] <DanC> I'm kinda fond of the sidebar.... but yes, pruning is in order
  292. # [06:26] <DanC> design principles aren't news so much... oh! a link to the comments list, please?
  293. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> OK
  294. # [06:26] <DanC> pretty much zilch re HDP in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/ .
  295. # [06:27] <DanC> I guess anybody who would care to comment is in the WG?
  296. # [06:27] <DanC> (care to comment thru that channel)
  297. # [06:27] <MikeSmith> I reckon the Design Principles publication was enough newsworthy that people took time to blog about it
  298. # [06:28] <DanC> public service announcement/reminder: bonus points to anybody who forwards interesting comments from blog articles and blog comments to public-html-comments@w3.org
  299. # [06:30] <DanC> google blog search reports "40,964 for html design principles." I wonder about the precision of that search
  300. # [06:31] <DanC> 45 for "html design principles"
  301. # [06:31] <DanC> 19,538 for html "design principles"
  302. # [06:32] <DanC> pretty friendly stuff... "I’m pleased to see that one of the five principles discussed is universal access" -- http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/news/w3c-html-design-principles-working-draft/
  303. # [06:33] <DanC> ah... less friendly: "What bothers me most is that the document doesn't say anything about why there should be an HTML 5 at all. What's the point without a specified goal?" -- http://fileformats.blogspot.com/2007/11/design-principles-for-html-5.html
  304. # [06:34] <DanC> I have some hope that we'll elaborate the design principles to talk about requirements... though we seem to be doing separate documents to motivate new features, which is probably just as well
  305. # [06:43] * DanC wanders off...
  306. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> DanC - ttyl. btw, I just did some surgery on the sidebar. Looks much better now. すっきり even
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  329. # [09:13] <Philip> http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/content/canvas/test/ - yay
  330. # [09:15] <mjs> great, now we're behind
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  332. # [09:18] <Philip> (http://philip.html5.org/hg/canvas/ is the latest version of the code that generates those tests)
  333. # [09:18] <Philip> (Eventually I'm bound to settle on a place to keep the tests; I think I've moved it between four different repositories so far)
  334. # [09:22] <Philip> hsivonen: Did you manage to get Firefox built with <video>? If not, it looks like http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/12/new-enabled-experimental-firefox-builds.html might be helpful (if you haven't seen that already)
  335. # [09:23] * Quits: timbl (timbl@209.6.134.246) (Connection reset by peer)
  336. # [09:24] <Hixie> i don't understand how sam's suggestion in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Dec/0018.html is different from the status quo in the spec
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  340. # [09:57] <hsivonen> Philip: the build completed, audio played, video was not painted. rampant runaway memory allocation ensued
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  345. # [10:33] <hsivonen> I need some kind of git for dummies. I don't even know what the git version of svn up or cvs up is.
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  347. # [10:47] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Why'd you start using it? :)
  348. # [10:48] <hsivonen> Dashiva: the Firefox video code is in git
  349. # [10:48] <hsivonen> I did git pull and it did something that looked like an svn up
  350. # [10:48] <Dashiva> From what I heard about Hg, it sounds kinda like it would
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  352. # [11:12] <Dashiva> Looks like we can stop calling it IE.next now: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2007/12/05/internet-explorer-8.aspx
  353. # [11:19] <Hixie> wow, i didn't even know there was any doubt it would be called IE8
  354. # [11:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, in the spring, the WebKit guys wouldn't confirm that Safari 3 would be called Safari 3, either
  355. # [11:24] <mjs> we can neither confirm nor deny that the release following Safari 3 Beta was actually officially named Safari 3
  356. # [11:24] <mjs> please contact Apple PR for a statement
  357. # [11:24] <mjs> I'll admit I don't actually know what the next Safari version after 3 will be
  358. # [11:25] <mjs> but if I did I sure couldn't tell you
  359. # [11:25] <Hixie> well i can tell you that the next version of Google will be called Google.
  360. # [11:25] <mjs> will it still be Beta?
  361. # [11:26] <Hixie> Google's not in beta
  362. # [11:26] <Hixie> most of our other products are, but that's another story...
  363. # [11:27] <mjs> Google has a non-beta product?
  364. # [11:27] <mjs> omg!
  365. # [11:27] * mjs furiously types an email to TechCrunch
  366. # [11:28] <mjs> BREAKING: Google not in beta
  367. # [11:28] <mjs> Arrington's commentary:
  368. # [11:28] <Dashiva> How long until google starts releasing software as alpha?
  369. # [11:29] <Hixie> Dashiva: google labs, baby
  370. # [11:29] <Dashiva> What will you do next, then? You're running out of greek letters
  371. # [11:29] <mjs> "Google, having invented the 'perpetual beta' strategy, now seems to be abandoning it. Does this signal the end of the bubble, or does it mean Web 2.0 is finally evolving to Web 3.0? We'll provide full analysis and commentary on this story as it develops."
  372. # [11:30] <mjs> Dashiva: wrap around - Google Video Chat can debut as an Omega product
  373. # [11:30] <Dashiva> Good idea
  374. # [11:30] <Dashiva> Might get troublesome when they pass two letters beyond omega, as no one will know the order
  375. # [11:31] <Hixie> i don't believe we actually use greek letters other than beta. the other states are labelled differently.
  376. # [11:31] <Hixie> e.g. with the labs logo.
  377. # [11:32] <mjs> Apple's pre-beta level products are called "leak this and you're fired"
  378. # [11:33] <Hixie> hah
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  387. # [13:13] <Hixie> sigh, the idea that html5 is not backwards compatible is spreading http://superstarit.com/2007/12/06/html5-and-css3/
  388. # [13:13] <Hixie> i'm not sure exactly what it means for html5 to not be backwards compatible, which makes it hard to argue with ese posts
  389. # [13:26] <mjs> that's why "backwards compatible" is a bad term
  390. # [13:26] <mjs> should I blog an explanation of compatibility principles somewhere?
  391. # [13:27] <mjs> I've found that our terms of "support existing content" and "degrade gracefully" are much more clear than "backwards compatible" or (god forbid) "forwards compatible"
  392. # [13:31] <Philip> Hixie: I'm not sure the people posting these posts know exactly what it means either, but you have more authority than them so you can just tell them what it means
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  396. # [14:07] <DanC> MikeSmith, indeed, sidebar is nicer
  397. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> DanC - definitely more compact at least
  398. # [14:11] <anne> anything happened?
  399. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> anne - one thing that happened is a spent a little time messing around with parse.py from the html5lib distro and have some questions about it if you have time
  400. # [14:21] <anne> sure, post them here
  401. # [14:21] <anne> I'm reading some IRC logs and e-mail meanwhile
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  403. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> anne - will ping you here later. need to drop offline for a while right now
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  408. # [14:49] <Lachy> My article got discussed in wired http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/12/html-5----a-new.html
  409. # [14:49] <anne> It's interesting how Hixe argues that <wbr> is redundant while not supporting it makes some things in Gmail 2.0 look less good. I guess he's not familiar with their codebase :)
  410. # [14:49] <anne> (It's also argued that it works slightly different the &shy; stuff.)
  411. # [14:49] <anne> Lachy, wow, cool!
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  421. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> anne - so I realize that parser.py is just intended as a parser, not really a converter, but..
  422. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> if a run a namespaced XHTML document through it to generate HTML, I see it does change the original XHTML doctype to <!doctype html>, which is great
  423. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> but it preserves the XHTML namespace in the result tree, which seems not so great
  424. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> seems like if it is serializing to HTML, it should just strip the namespace
  425. # [15:40] <anne> the namespace is "conforming" HTML5
  426. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> oh
  427. # [15:42] <anne> <html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml> is, even (without the quotes)
  428. # [15:42] <gsnedders> (but only on the html element and it MUST have a value of http://w3.org/1999/xhtml (or whatever it is))
  429. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> hmm, embarrassed now that I didn't know that, since it's very clear now that I look at the spec
  430. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> anne - OK, other minor quibble is why in serializing it doesn't generate a line break between the doctype and the opening html tag, and seems to eat any linebreak between the closing body and html tags
  431. # [15:46] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: that's per the parsing algorithm
  432. # [15:46] <zcorpan> leading whitespace is ignored and after </body> goes into body
  433. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> OK, clearly I need to actually read the spec before asking..
  434. # [15:49] <anne> hmm, the second question seems perfectly reasonable given the relative complexity of the parsing section :)
  435. # [15:49] <gsnedders> anyone know of any good XMLHttpRequest tutorials for someone whose EMCAScript is less than awesome?
  436. # [15:50] <anne> also, either is trivial to answer so it doesn't really matter
  437. # [15:50] <zcorpan> gsnedders: the spec? :)
  438. # [15:51] * gsnedders still doesn't totally understand it
  439. # [15:51] <gsnedders> and I need IE < 7 support :P
  440. # [15:52] <zcorpan> google for ajax and copy some boilerplate snippet
  441. # [15:52] <gsnedders> But I want to understand it! :P
  442. # [15:53] <anne> var client = new XMLHttpRequest()
  443. # [15:53] <gsnedders> do the ActiveX versions have the exact same API?
  444. # [15:53] <anne> oh, IE < 7
  445. # [15:53] <anne> euh
  446. # [15:53] <anne> you need some tricks for that then, easy to find
  447. # [15:53] <gsnedders> yes, anne, the less than sign :)
  448. # [15:54] <anne> the rest is pretty simple, client.open(httpmethod, url); client.onreadystatechange = function () { if(client.readyState > 3) { do stuff } }; client.send(postdata)
  449. # [15:54] <gsnedders> What's the preferred way to run EMCAScript on load nowadays anyway?
  450. # [15:54] <gsnedders> why > 3? is checking for 4 not good enough?
  451. # [15:54] <zcorpan> var client = window.XMLHttpRequest ? new XMLHttpRequest() : new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP");
  452. # [15:55] <anne> gsnedders, oh, either way
  453. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> anne - any clue on why if I use the minidom / -b dom option with parse.py, it causes the lang attribute on the html element to be removed?
  454. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> or zcorpan
  455. # [16:00] <gsnedders> hmm… if getResponseHeader(header) returns a string of the entire header, I guess it can't really be used to check that the header has been parsed properly
  456. # [16:01] <anne> MikeSmith, lang= is not part of XHTML5, other than that I wouldn't know
  457. # [16:01] <anne> gsnedders, it returns the header value
  458. # [16:01] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: is it just on the html element?
  459. # [16:02] <gsnedders> anne: huh? how does the example in the spec output what it says it should then?
  460. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - yup, just on the html element. but my test file has both xml:lang and lang on the html element
  461. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> if I run it through that way, the lang instance gets tossed
  462. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> but if I remove the xml:lang from the source and leave the lang, it gets preserved
  463. # [16:04] <anne> gsnedders, oops
  464. # [16:04] <anne> gsnedders, seems like a bug
  465. # [16:04] <gsnedders> do I need to worry about what the error flag is set to, BTW?
  466. # [16:05] <anne> in case the request fails it could return null
  467. # [16:05] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: seems weird to me
  468. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - maybe just some minidom quirk
  469. # [16:05] <gsnedders> anne: what could return null? the body?
  470. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - btw, you and Lachy are in Oslo now?
  471. # [16:06] <zcorpan> yep
  472. # [16:07] <anne> gsnedders, getRequestHeader()
  473. # [16:07] <anne> gsnedders, responseXML and responseText might too, yes
  474. # [16:07] <gsnedders> anne: ah. does null == "" in JavaScript?
  475. # [16:07] <anne> javascript:alert(null == "")
  476. # [16:08] * Parts: timbl (timbl@128.30.6.53)
  477. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - my friend Andreas Bovens from Opera Tokyo is there now too, I think
  478. # [16:08] <gsnedders> ah yeah. alert() would show that. *facedesks*
  479. # [16:08] <gsnedders> false.
  480. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> hope you guys can meet him if you haven't already
  481. # [16:08] * gsnedders proves he is terrible at JavaScript, again
  482. # [16:13] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i've met him
  483. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> zcorpan - great
  484. # [16:15] <zcorpan> i lived in the same department as him back in august, last time i was in oslo
  485. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> Oh, OK
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  527. # [22:55] <Hixie> anne: oh i know google's markup sucks, don't worry
  528. # [22:56] <anne> i was semi-joking
  529. # [22:56] <Hixie> :-)
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  531. # [23:07] <DanC> whew... that was a lot of work. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0094.html
  532. # [23:08] <DanC> ISSUE-15 immediate-mode-graphics proposal carries over objections
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  534. # [23:11] <gavin> "the chairs feel obliged to pursue several of the options in the tactics survey; in particular, modifying the charter"
  535. # [23:11] <gavin> I'm not sure I understand what that means
  536. # [23:12] <DanC> it means Chris Wilson and I are going to talk with w3c management in the coming weeks
  537. # [23:12] <gavin> ok
  538. # [23:13] <gavin> who ultimately decides whether the charter should be changed?
  539. # [23:13] <DanC> The Director
  540. # [23:13] <gavin> ok
  541. # [23:15] <DanC> (well, strictly speaking, even a decision by The Director is subject to appeal by the w3c membership, but that possibility remains theoretical. it has never happened.)
  542. # [23:15] <anne> so the idea is that we accept the requirement, but it may nevertheless require changes to the charter?
  543. # [23:16] <DanC> yes. the WG thinks it fits in the charter, but the WG doesn't have final say over whether the charter should change
  544. # [23:16] <DanC> thinks = has decided, though with an asterisk due to lack of consensus
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  547. # [23:19] <DanC> ah. hi Mike. I'm closing up shop here. I guess you're just getting up
  548. # [23:19] <Philip> If the charter changes, would it change so that it more explicitly includes this graphic stuff, or might it change to explicitly exclude it instead, or might it change and not clarify anything at all?
  549. # [23:20] <DanC> to change without clarifying would be a waste of time. the other two options are more interesting.
  550. # [23:20] <MikeSmith> DanC - yep. 7:20am here
  551. # [23:20] <MikeSmith> DanC - on thing I want to ask before you go
  552. # [23:20] <DanC> fire away
  553. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> I moved the Planet HTML5 aggregator here:
  554. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/planet/
  555. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> tentatively
  556. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> wanted to get your OK for that URI
  557. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> before announcing
  558. # [23:21] <DanC> looks good
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  560. # [23:22] <DanC> is the editorial policy "mike picks the RSS feeds"?
  561. # [23:22] <Hixie> (on the precise question of whether we should change the charter, the group voted 29+5 to 2 against, fwiw. so changing the charter would be explicitly against the wishes of most of the group, which, while technically allowed, seems unwise from a "not pissing off the productive members of the group" point of view.)
  562. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> DanC - nope, policy is that anybody can pick them
  563. # [23:22] <DanC> the group advised, not voted
  564. # [23:22] <DanC> how do I pick one?
  565. # [23:23] <Hixie> it voted on advice
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  567. # [23:23] <Hixie> it's hard to argue that it wasn't a vote :-)
  568. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> DanC - the current interface it me and requires that you let me know and I add it manually :)
  569. # [23:23] <DanC> ok... and yes, from a "not pissing off the productive members of the group" point of view, that's the case. the chairs are obliged to think about people outside the group too, meanwhile.
  570. # [23:24] <MikeSmith> but I will check in the config file so you can change directly
  571. # [23:24] <MikeSmith> will need to symlink it to make it work
  572. # [23:24] <DanC> and what if J. Random internet user mails you and suggests adding his penis enlargement blog?
  573. # [23:24] <Hixie> (has anyone outside the group said that they disagree that the charter covers canvas?)
  574. # [23:24] <DanC> yes
  575. # [23:24] <Hixie> aha, interesting. do you have any links? i'd love to look more into that.
  576. # [23:25] <DanC> well... actually, it was google.
  577. # [23:25] <Hixie> google is in the group
  578. # [23:25] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2007OctDec/0029.html
  579. # [23:25] <Hixie> TV is a member of the group
  580. # [23:25] <Hixie> so presumably doesn't count as a member who isn't in the group
  581. # [23:26] <MikeSmith> DanC - OK, the system I plan to use is something called "case by case" coupled with another thing called "we don't want to make it any more complicated than needed"
  582. # [23:26] <DanC> seems to me that the editorial policy is "at the discretion of Mike Smith". which is fine.
  583. # [23:26] <MikeSmith> I guess in that system I will be the Decider.
  584. # [23:26] <MikeSmith> Yes, I am the Decider.
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  586. # [23:27] <Hixie> MikeSmith: is there a list somewhere of the people on the feed?
  587. # [23:27] <DanC> ok, re-reading your question, Hixie, no. but the question reminded me of the conflicting advice from google
  588. # [23:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie - list is in the sidebar
  589. # [23:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: aha, cool, thanks
  590. # [23:28] <DanC> actually, "not that I can think of". I don't know everything that everyone outside the WG has said.
  591. # [23:29] <Hixie> DanC: ok... so if no-one outside the group has, as far as you know, complained about the charter, and if we count google's vote as a vote that it should change, then we're at 28+5 to 3 against, which still seems somewhat distinctly clear advice on whether or not the charter should change. :-)
  592. # [23:29] <ChrisWilson> ...from invited experts, not just members.
  593. # [23:30] <DanC> MikeSmith, please look into how to turn http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0094.html into a tracker resolution. and there are a few actions implicit in that message. feel free to tell trackbot about them
  594. # [23:30] <MikeSmith> DanC - will do
  595. # [23:30] <DanC> yes, distinctly clear advice.
  596. # [23:31] <DanC> as we both know, popular advice is not always the best way to decide things.
  597. # [23:32] <Hixie> DanC: on technical matters, certainly. anyway i'm not trying to convince you of anything, i'm just making some observations and pointing out the dangers of possible courses of action.
  598. # [23:33] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the IE team blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/) might make a good addition, fwiw
  599. # [23:33] <DanC> ok, thanks for the observations. it's good to confirm common understanding.
  600. # [23:35] <Hixie> MikeSmith: as might the mozilla devnews: http://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/
  601. # [23:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I can add those but if nobody is blogging there about HTML5 or the HTML working group or the WHATWG, no postings will show up from it there. Because I have a filtering mechanism set up to only publish posts related to those topics. Everything else from the blogs in the feed gets filtered out.
  602. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> Note I have the following set up too:
  603. # [23:37] <DanC> ah... so it's even more refined than "mike picks the rss feeds".
  604. # [23:38] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0094.html
  605. # [23:38] <MikeSmith> http://people.w3.org/mike/planet/browser-dev/
  606. # [23:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ah ok
  607. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> http://people.w3.org/mike/planet/browser-news/
  608. # [23:39] <Hixie> MikeSmith: how does your filter work?
  609. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> http://people.w3.org/mike/planet/web-developer/
  610. # [23:39] * DanC anticipates it'll be easier for MikeSmith to pulish the source than explain to hixie's satisfaction ;-)
  611. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> hmm, I need to fix (remove) the W3C HTML banners on those others
  612. # [23:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie - it uses Sam Ruby's Venus
  613. # [23:40] <gavin> if it's like mozilla's planet (venus), it just looks for specific strings in the post title or body
  614. # [23:40] <MikeSmith> currently, it just does a full-text string search
  615. # [23:41] <Hixie> k
  616. # [23:41] <MikeSmith> though Venus can be configured to do content checking using XPath also
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  621. # [23:45] * DanC wanders off...
  622. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> Venus rocks mightily
  623. # [23:46] * MikeSmith raises his Goblet of Rock to Sam Ruby for Venus
  624. # [23:50] <Lachy> I'm wondering if it would be worth the effort to call in for the telcon in an hour
  625. # [23:53] <ChrisWilson> I think it will be short.
  626. # [23:53] <Lachy> I'm also wondering about ISSUE-26, where Gregory complains about the accessibility of "Big Issue" being generated with CSS :before, despite the fact that it is actually inserted into the page with JavaScript
  627. # [23:54] <Lachy> I'll just participate over IRC. I don't really feel like walking to the office just to phone in
  628. # [23:58] <Hixie> i don't understand the agenda
  629. # [23:58] <Hixie> oh well
  630. # Session Close: Fri Dec 07 00:00:00 2007

The end :)