/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-12-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 07 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <ChrisWilson> We're reviewing action items, incl. pending review (so we can close) and overdue items.
  4. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson - call is in one hour, right?
  5. # [00:02] <ChrisWilson> yes, approx.
  6. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> k
  7. # [00:06] * Joins: hober (ted@66.75.248.223)
  8. # [00:08] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.138)
  9. # [00:17] <anne> so it might be that Unicode does not have a proper equivalent for <wbr>
  10. # [00:18] <anne> you don't want ZWS because that adds an invisible character and you don't want a SOFT HYPHEN either for similar reasons
  11. # [00:22] <MikeSmith> anne - so what the problem with having an invisible character?
  12. # [00:23] <anne> copy & paste I think
  13. # [00:24] <Dashiva> So is the problem that it's invisible (people can't see it to remove it) or that it's a character?
  14. # [00:24] <anne> imagine you copy and paste an e-mailaddress with such a character in it
  15. # [00:27] * Philip uses zero-width spaces in his canvas tests, and it triggered a buffer overflow in Windows 2000 :-(
  16. # [00:28] <Dashiva> But that's hardly limited to ZWS, it goes for all invisible characters. And I don't see them appearing often inside email addresses
  17. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> anne - in practice, I guess I think most people who use ZWS just use a numeric character reference for it
  18. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> which also avoids the problem you describe
  19. # [00:29] <Philip> MikeSmith: That avoids the problem if you copy-and-paste from the HTML source, but not if you copy from the rendered HTML
  20. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> ah
  21. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  27. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, start meeting
  28. # [01:00] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
  29. # [01:00] * trackbot-ng found 16 users
  30. # [01:00] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  31. # [01:00] * trackbot-ng is starting a teleconference
  32. # [01:01] <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
  33. # [01:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot-ng
  34. # [01:01] <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be HTML
  35. # [01:01] <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see HTML_WG()7:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
  36. # [01:01] <trackbot-ng> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  37. # [01:01] <trackbot-ng> Date: 06 December 2007
  38. # [01:01] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.138) (Ping timeout)
  39. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  40. # [01:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
  41. # [01:01] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has now started
  42. # [01:02] <Zakim> +??P0
  43. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson ?
  44. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  45. # [01:02] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  46. # [01:02] <ChrisWilson> just a sec, sorry, timewarped
  47. # [01:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  48. # [01:03] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, +Microsoft is me
  49. # [01:03] <Zakim> sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named '+Microsoft'
  50. # [01:03] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  51. # [01:03] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  52. # [01:04] * Lachy waves
  53. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  54. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> Lachy - hei
  55. # [01:04] <ChrisWilson> Hi Lachy
  56. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> Lachy - will you be calling in today?
  57. # [01:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.812.aaaa
  58. # [01:04] <Lachy> no, IRC only
  59. # [01:06] * Quits: kingryan (kingryan@66.92.2.56) (Quit: kingryan)
  60. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> Present+ Monika Trebo
  61. # [01:06] <ChrisWilson> so, let's go ahead get going.
  62. # [01:07] <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aabb
  63. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
  64. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> Scribe: MikeSmith
  65. # [01:07] * Joins: dsinger (daithesong@17.202.35.52)
  66. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> Present+ DaveSinger
  67. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  68. # [01:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/07-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  69. # [01:08] * Joins: jgraham_ (james@81.86.218.70)
  70. # [01:08] * Quits: tH (Rob@83.100.250.48) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  71. # [01:08] <MikeSmith> Topic: Review of open issues and actions
  72. # [01:08] <MikeSmith> ACTION-16?
  73. # [01:08] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-16
  74. # [01:08] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-16 -- Dan Connolly to put question in issue-15: does the working group want to do <canvas> -- due 2007-11-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  75. # [01:08] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/16
  76. # [01:09] <MikeSmith> Present- Monika
  77. # [01:10] <ChrisWilson> TrackbotNG, close Action-16
  78. # [01:10] <ChrisWilson> trackbot-ng, close action-16
  79. # [01:10] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-16.
  80. # [01:10] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-16 put question in issue-15: does the working group want to do <canvas> closed
  81. # [01:10] <ChrisWilson> thanks
  82. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> ACTION-24?
  83. # [01:10] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-24
  84. # [01:10] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-24 -- Gregory Rosmaita to suggest accessibility improvement for "Big issue" marker -- due 2007-11-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  85. # [01:10] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/24
  86. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> [skipping ACTION-24 for now until OedipusWrecked shows up]
  87. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> ACTION-25?
  88. # [01:11] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-25
  89. # [01:11] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-25 -- Dan Connolly to review oflline-webapps (proxy for Sam Ruby) -- due 2007-11-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  90. # [01:11] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/25
  91. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : Sam completed his review. So this action is done.
  92. # [01:12] <ChrisWilson> trackbot-ng, close action-25
  93. # [01:12] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-25.
  94. # [01:12] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-25 review oflline-webapps (proxy for Sam Ruby) closed
  95. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> Present+ MonikaTrebo
  96. # [01:12] <ChrisWilson> extending Action-11 on Dan until next week.
  97. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> ACTION-11?
  98. # [01:13] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-11
  99. # [01:13] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-11 -- Dan Connolly to show how <div aria="something"> works with URI based extensibility -- due 2007-12-11 -- OPEN
  100. # [01:13] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/11
  101. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> [note that I think DanC did spend some time yesterday on ACTION-11 but not sure what has been done]
  102. # [01:14] <ChrisWilson> ACTION-27?
  103. # [01:14] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-27
  104. # [01:14] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-27 -- Dan Connolly to draft a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with microformats.org regarding @rel values -- due 2007-12-06 -- OPEN
  105. # [01:14] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/27
  106. # [01:15] <ChrisWilson> extending...
  107. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> I know nothing of status on that issue.
  108. # [01:15] <dsinger> help. can someone mute their microphone when they are next to the washing machine?
  109. # [01:15] * MikeSmith apologizes to dsinger
  110. # [01:15] <ChrisWilson> action-31?
  111. # [01:15] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-31
  112. # [01:15] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-31 -- Dan Connolly to see that Singer's summary makes it to the SJC/Dec W3C video workshop, possibly by confirming Singer's attendance -- due 2007-12-06 -- OPEN
  113. # [01:15] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/31
  114. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> dsinger : I won't be a the video workshop, will be in Japan, other Apple rep will be there.
  115. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> dsinger - I sent info to Philippe LH and to Rigo of W3C
  116. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> s/be a the/be at the/
  117. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  118. # [01:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/07-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  119. # [01:17] <ChrisWilson> ACTION-32?
  120. # [01:17] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-32
  121. # [01:17] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-32 -- Michael(tm) Smith to change the product name of "HTML 5 authoring guidelines" in the tracker to something else, eventually -- due 2007-12-06 -- OPEN
  122. # [01:17] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/32
  123. # [01:18] <ChrisWilson> was there a really short push to change the name in the product?
  124. # [01:18] <ChrisWilson> (I mean in the issue tracker, not in the document name)
  125. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson, no not high priority
  126. # [01:19] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  127. # [01:20] <MikeSmith> sorry, will be back on the call in a minute
  128. # [01:20] <MikeSmith> Skype dropped me
  129. # [01:20] <ChrisWilson> OK
  130. # [01:20] <ChrisWilson> I'm looking at the issues discussed over the last week to see if there's anything high-pri
  131. # [01:22] <Zakim> +??P0
  132. # [01:22] <ChrisWilson> Other than ACTION-24, assigned to Gregory, I think we're done with review for the day.
  133. # [01:23] * Quits: jgraham_ (james@81.86.218.70) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  134. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  135. # [01:23] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  136. # [01:23] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.138)
  137. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> ISSUE-24?
  138. # [01:23] * trackbot-ng getting information on ISSUE-24
  139. # [01:23] <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-24 -- Delete "should support Ogg" clause before publishing FPWD? -- OPEN
  140. # [01:23] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/24
  141. # [01:24] * Quits: OedipusWrecked (oedipus@70.21.186.138) (Ping timeout)
  142. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> dsinger - there is general consensus that we should ideally have a recommended format, but don't have consensus on what
  143. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> ... so better to have a placeholder for now
  144. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment on this
  145. # [01:25] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  146. # [01:25] <ChrisWilson> I'm happy to put Dave's placeholder into the spec for now.
  147. # [01:25] <ChrisWilson> ack
  148. # [01:25] <ChrisWilson> ack MikeSmith?
  149. # [01:25] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  150. # [01:25] <ChrisWilson> ack MikeSmith
  151. # [01:25] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment on this
  152. # [01:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  153. # [01:25] * oedipus my landlord is here explaining why he is increasing my rent and asking for an extra payment for "sewage charges" -- hopefully he will be gone soon -- thank dog for earplugs
  154. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : I agree we have not reached a consensus on this
  155. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> dsinger : we need W3C staff (PLH and Rigo) to advise on how to move forward with this
  156. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> Present- Trebo
  157. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> Present+ ChrisWilson
  158. # [01:30] <ChrisWilson> Created action 39 to track
  159. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> ACTION-39?
  160. # [01:30] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-39
  161. # [01:30] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-39 -- Dan Connolly to chairs to discuss action on video/audo codec and container with Philippe et al post the video workshop -- due 2007-12-20 -- OPEN
  162. # [01:30] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/39
  163. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> Present+ GregoryRosmaita
  164. # [01:31] <ChrisWilson> I think we've reached consensus that the placeholder for video/audio should be used until we reach consensus, post-workshop.
  165. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
  166. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> oedipus - you there?
  167. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> we need you
  168. # [01:32] <MikeSmith> [waiting for oedipus]
  169. # [01:33] <oedipus> i just got back to the laptop -- let me find the phone
  170. # [01:33] <oedipus> q+ to say re: ACTION-24 that he was surprised by hixie's reply about editors' drafts not reflecting changes from draft to draft using INS and DEL -- aren't editor's draft's supposed to contain new, deleted, and proposed text? this would be of inestimable assistance in monitoring the changes to the HTML5 Editors' Draft, so long as actual markup is utilized and conventions documented in the intro materials [hixie's review: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public
  171. # [01:33] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  172. # [01:33] <Lachy> oedipus, regarding the accessibility of the Big Issue markers, your mail talked about the accessibility of CSS generated contnet. However, the Big Issue markers are inserted into the page with JavaScript, so screen readers should be able to read them correctly
  173. # [01:33] <ChrisWilson> ack oedipus
  174. # [01:33] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say re: ACTION-24 that he was surprised by hixie's reply about editors' drafts not reflecting changes from draft to draft using INS and DEL -- aren't
  175. # [01:33] <Zakim> ... editor's draft's supposed to contain new, deleted, and proposed text? this would be of inestimable assistance in monitoring the changes to the HTML5 Editors' Draft, so long as
  176. # [01:33] <Zakim> ... actual markup is utilized and conventions documented in the intro materials [hixie's review: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public
  177. # [01:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  178. # [01:34] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  179. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> oedipus - no, editor's drafts do not necessarily need to use INS and DEL or anything else to show changes
  180. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> oedipus : normal issues an Big Issue are styled the same
  181. # [01:35] <dsinger> but I think that Ian no longer knows what the semantic difference is either...
  182. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> ... that's the problem
  183. # [01:36] * MikeSmith wonders if Hixie might be around to comment on this over IRC
  184. # [01:36] <Lachy> The specific changes to the spec can be monitered using SVN. Using <ins> and <del> on a draft that changes so much is way too much work
  185. # [01:36] <dsinger> we'd need a definition of what makes an issue "big" ... and ...
  186. # [01:36] <Lachy> oedipus, normal issues and big issues are actually styled differently
  187. # [01:36] <dsinger> we'd need to go through all the issues and make sure that they are all correctly classified
  188. # [01:36] <Lachy> they just share some common styles
  189. # [01:37] * Hixie checks in
  190. # [01:37] <Hixie> i'm here
  191. # [01:37] <Hixie> wassup
  192. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie - please see comments from oedipus above
  193. # [01:38] <ChrisWilson> we're discussing INS/DEL
  194. # [01:38] * Hixie looks
  195. # [01:38] <ChrisWilson> and comment from Lachy
  196. # [01:38] <Hixie> the editor's drafts just happen every time i generate the spec, which can be multiple times a day... i'm not sure what use the ins/del markup would be
  197. # [01:38] <Hixie> (when would i remove them?)
  198. # [01:39] <ChrisWilson> WDs?
  199. # [01:39] <Hixie> there's a number of ways of tracking changes to the spec, including diff e-mails, subversion and cvs logs and diffs, twitter messages for non-editorial changes, and a web page that lets you filter the changes to just show what matters to you
  200. # [01:39] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: well since we haven't had a single WD yet presumably that would be one big <ins> element covering the whole spec
  201. # [01:40] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: i'm quite happy for us to generate html-based diffs between WDs if we publish frequent WDs, which i agree we should
  202. # [01:40] <hober> All of those existing mechanisms have the advantage that they don't require Hixie's editing behavior to radically change.
  203. # [01:40] <hober> Updating ins/dels on each edit adds significant editing overhead for what benefit, given the existing tools?
  204. # [01:41] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.81)
  205. # [01:41] <Hixie> well if i were to add ins/del markup, i certainly wouldn't do it manually. i'd have to find some sort of tool to do it automatically.
  206. # [01:41] <hober> s/find/write/, most likely
  207. # [01:41] <Hixie> i don't have the bandwidth to write a diffing tool :-(
  208. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> oedipus : the current mechanisms for following changes to the spec need to be linked to more prominently on the WG home page
  209. # [01:41] <Hixie> but i'd happily use whatever tool people provided
  210. # [01:42] <Hixie> (the same way as i happily embedded the spec splitter tool and the spec to pdf convertor tool and the pubrules tool into my pipeline)
  211. # [01:42] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.75) (Ping timeout)
  212. # [01:42] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.138) (Ping timeout)
  213. # [01:42] <Hixie> so much for that
  214. # [01:42] <Hixie> :-/
  215. # [01:44] * Lachy wonders if there are existing diffing tools available that could be used
  216. # [01:45] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.103)
  217. # [01:45] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to add links on HTML WG to mechanism for watching changes to the HTML5 spec
  218. # [01:45] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  219. # [01:45] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-40 - Add links on HTML WG to mechanism for watching changes to the HTML5 spec [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-12-14].
  220. # [01:45] * RRSAgent records action 11
  221. # [01:46] <MikeSmith> any additional business for today's call?
  222. # [01:46] <Philip> http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/diff/ etc?
  223. # [01:47] <ChrisWilson> hmm. Yeah, that might work, I suppose.
  224. # [01:47] <Hixie> try it
  225. # [01:48] <Hixie> :-)
  226. # [01:48] <ChrisWilson> (I was asking for Gregory, not for me)
  227. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> oedipus: PF / Al Gilman will plan to take "aria-" proposal to Hypertext CG
  228. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> ... that is consensus of PF WG
  229. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> oedipus: Jim Allen wanted me to remind that HTML WG that since what they do is UA conformance, they would like to assist in any way possible with UA conformance section of HTML5 spec
  230. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> ... that is UAWG
  231. # [01:49] <Hixie> (actually if anyone does want me to add some sort of html diffing to the pipeline, what would be really useful would be if they could provide me with a web service where i could upload two html files and get back an html file with the diffs)
  232. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie - we now have such a tool
  233. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> will get the URL for you
  234. # [01:50] <Hixie> (that's basically how the pubrules and spec splitting things happen -- i have a web service on a separate computer on the internet that takes those two files and returns the files to upload)
  235. # [01:50] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cool
  236. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> oedipus: UAWG realizes it needs to work to get their concerns addressed by trying whenever possible to get accessibility features/considerations into core specs
  237. # [01:51] <ChrisWilson> other issues/topics?
  238. # [01:51] <ChrisWilson> move to adjourn?
  239. # [01:51] <ChrisWilson> thanks all
  240. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> [meeting adjourned]
  241. # [01:51] <Zakim> - +1.408.996.aabb
  242. # [01:51] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  243. # [01:51] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  244. # [01:51] <ChrisWilson> adjourned
  245. # [01:52] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  246. # [01:52] <Zakim> - +1.650.812.aaaa
  247. # [01:52] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has ended
  248. # [01:52] <Zakim> Attendees were MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, +1.650.812.aaaa, +1.408.996.aabb, Gregory_Rosmaita
  249. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  250. # [01:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/07-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  251. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> Present- +1.408.996.aabb
  252. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> Present- +1.650.812.aaaa
  253. # [01:53] * Quits: dsinger (daithesong@17.202.35.52) (Quit: Leaving)
  254. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> Present- Gregory_Rosmaita
  255. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  256. # [01:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/07-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  257. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> Chair: ChrisWilson
  258. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  259. # [01:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/07-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  260. # [01:56] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.138)
  261. # [01:56] <oedipus> mikeTMsmith, was just checking what i missed in the online minutes, and wanted to let you know you need to issue a "meeting:" and a "chair:" command and regenerate the minutes
  262. # [01:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie - http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=URL1&doc2=URL2
  263. # [01:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith: k thanks
  264. # [01:58] <Hixie> oedipus: what do you want the diffs to be between?
  265. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> oedipus - yep, OK
  266. # [01:58] <Hixie> oedipus: i.e. what document should i use as the "source"?
  267. # [01:58] <oedipus> mTMs, np
  268. # [01:58] <Hixie> er, "doc1"
  269. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  270. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  271. # [01:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/07-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  272. # [02:00] <oedipus> hixie, each time a new editors' draft is issued, there should be some way of semantically marking what has been added and changed since the last editors' draft, otherwise one has no context -- also need to know what is editorial and what is "substational/consunsus" -- as i said to mikeTMsmith, we need to promote the many means of monitoring the diffs and changes on the WG's home page because i don't think many people know about them and hance can't make use
  273. # [02:01] <Hixie> oedipus: so basically the diff should just be changes between the current draft and the previous one?
  274. # [02:01] <Hixie> that shouldn't be too hard
  275. # [02:01] <oedipus> hixie, for editors' drafts, yes
  276. # [02:02] <Hixie> k, let me set that up
  277. # [02:02] <oedipus> comprehensively diff-marked versions are for working drafts to mark progress from WD to WD, right?
  278. # [02:02] <oedipus> hixie, that would be great (the setting up thereof)
  279. # [02:03] <oedipus> hixie, the easy way to get markers in would be via CSS2, section 12, but support for pseudo-elements and generated content isn't very robust in either assisstive technology or UAs
  280. # [02:03] <MikeSmith> oedipus - yeah, main case for comprehensive diff marking is among published WDs
  281. # [02:04] <oedipus> mTMs, thanks, that's what i thought
  282. # [02:06] <oedipus> mikeTMsmit, FYI, the latest internal draft of the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines (UAAG), 2.0, datestamped 7 november 2007, is located at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2007/WD-UAAG20-20071107/WD-UAAG20-20071107.html
  283. # [02:07] <oedipus> there's also the UAWG wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wiki/FrontPage
  284. # [02:08] <oedipus> and UAAG 2.0 Requirements Document (31 October 2007): http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-UAAG20-requirements-20071031/
  285. # [02:09] <oedipus> even when a user agent exposes pseudo-elemental content, it is still VERY rarely available to an AT
  286. # [02:13] <MikeSmith> oedipus - OK
  287. # [02:17] <Hixie> MikeSmith: dude, that script doesn't use <ins> and <del> it uses spans :-P
  288. # [02:18] <oedipus> hixie, which script?
  289. # [02:18] * oedipus notes to mikeTMsmith that recording calls involves "informed consent" which can be a hassle
  290. # [02:19] <Hixie> oedipus: the diffing tool
  291. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie - that's one thing at least I can't claim to share any blame in. I'm not even sure who current maintainer of the backend script for that is
  292. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> I think Bert might now
  293. # [02:20] <oedipus> hixie, i have an action item for another group to suggest concrete changes to the default diffing tool and the lack of INS and DEL is on the top of the list
  294. # [02:20] <oedipus> mikeTMsmith, bert bos?
  295. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> oedipus - aye
  296. # [02:21] <Hixie> oedipus: cool
  297. # [02:21] <oedipus> or, if you'll pardon, the pun, boss!
  298. # [02:21] <oedipus> hixie, i absolutely love the ASIDE and similar semantic elements, by the way
  299. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> oedipus - source for that diff tool appears to be here:
  300. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2003/01/BB_htmldiff-0.4.tar.gz
  301. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> that is linked to from Bert's home page
  302. # [02:24] <oedipus> thanks, mikeTMsmith
  303. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> So I think he is the maintainer
  304. # [02:24] <oedipus> ok
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  306. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> no, that's wrong
  307. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> that seems to be a C app
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  309. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> sorry
  310. # [02:25] <oedipus> np
  311. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> the online tool is using a perl script
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  313. # [02:26] <Hixie> oops, i have the arguments backwards
  314. # [02:26] <oedipus> ah - is it somewhere like DBooth's perl script for generating minutes? that's in a naked dirctory with documentation
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  317. # [02:27] <oedipus> mikeTMsmith, i can always inquire on the QA list
  318. # [02:27] <oedipus> dude, where's my DEL?
  319. # [02:29] <ChrisWilson> dude, you got a DEL.
  320. # [02:30] <Philip> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/tools/htmldiff?rev=1.1&content-type=text/plain ?
  321. # [02:30] <Philip> or http://www.w3.org/blog/systeam/2007/10/25/online_htmldiff_service links to a different fork of that code
  322. # [02:30] <oedipus> i have to say, as a DEVOtee, that i cringe everytime i hear DEVO used in advertising - although it is sometimes funny when their most anti-commercialist songs are used for advertisting ("it's a beautiful world")
  323. # [02:30] <oedipus> thanks, philip
  324. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> Philip - yeah, that's the one
  325. # [02:34] * oedipus tangentally notes that this dude did once have a DEL and it up-and-died on him -- that's how i found out that the sponsor of the better business bureau where DEL's corporate HQ is located is sponsored by DEL...
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  327. # [02:40] <Hixie> oedipus: ok, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/index-diff now has a diff from the current editor's draft to whatever the last committed draft was
  328. # [02:40] <Hixie> and it gets generated whenever i run my update script
  329. # [02:40] <oedipus> mikeTMsmith: thanks for refreshing the minutes during the call, i still don't know how to get the buffer that's moved off the chat panel to scroll up and down so i can listen to it, so having the minutes updated during the call helps
  330. # [02:41] <oedipus> hixie, thank you VERY much i will check it out - and thanks for adding to your update script
  331. # [02:42] <Hixie> np
  332. # [02:42] <Hixie> this diffing script is pretty fast, and doesn't screw up <pre> blocks, i'm impressed
  333. # [02:43] <Hixie> i need to start using it in other projects in place of the diffing tools i'd used before
  334. # [02:44] * gavin wonders why oedipus addresses MikeSmith as "mikeTMsmith"
  335. # [02:44] <oedipus> hixie, i'll follow up on getting as many of the spans converted to "semantically appropriate" elements
  336. # [02:44] <Hixie> cool
  337. # [02:45] * oedipus says to gavin that mike's oft refers to himself as Mike (tm) Smith, and when i started using a braille input keyboard, i stopped using capitalization for the most part because it wastes time and space
  338. # [02:46] <oedipus> hixie, i'm glad it didn't screw anything up
  339. # [02:46] <gavin> ah, right
  340. # [02:46] <gavin> I actually knew that (that he included that in his name sometimes), but it didn't click
  341. # [02:47] <oedipus> people also ask me about my screen name's origin -- throughout my life, i have oft been called by a non-maternal 12-letter epithet - that, plus being blind equals "oedipus"
  342. # [02:50] <Philip> Hixie: It looks like <ins>text</ins> and <ins><a href="...">...</a></ins> have exactly the same styling, which confused me at first
  343. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> oedipus - thanks for letting me know about the issue with not being able to scroll back in chat buffer. I guess this argues for us to make a practice of refreshing the generated minutes during the call
  344. # [02:50] <oedipus> mikeTMsmith, that would be great -- perhaps you could slip a reference into the W3C guidebook?
  345. # [02:51] <oedipus> i don't know if tactile users (refreshable braille display) can scroll back -- i'll ask around
  346. # [02:52] <Philip> Uh, I mean <a href="..."><span class="diff-new">...</span></a>, not what I said with <ins>
  347. # [02:52] <gavin> oedipus: which IRC client do you use?
  348. # [02:53] <gavin_> ah, CTCP VERSION answered :)
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  351. # [02:53] <oedipus> i used to use good old command line generic IRC but now i'm using mIRC with scripts called tIRC that work with 2 major screen readers or, if you don't have a screen reader, can use Microsoft Agent to become a self-voicing application
  352. # [02:55] <oedipus> i will post a pointer to tIRC, i'm trying to get together an "accessible collaborative resources" resource (like the w3c guidebook) for participants and other interested parties -- it is the best IRC experience since unix IRC -- can never get chatzilla to work
  353. # [02:55] <Philip> Hixie: Maybe 'a .diff-new { border-bottom: 1px blue solid; }' makes links still visible, though it's a bit ugly
  354. # [02:55] <Hixie> Philip: yeah, i you have any proposals for styles i'll stick them in; as it is, i just had to do something because the markup uses 'span' which has no default styles at all
  355. # [02:55] <oedipus> hixie, do you want me to CC you on my markup request to the systeam?
  356. # [02:55] <gavin_> oedipus: I'm not really familiar with how tIRC works, but perhaps you could send "PageUp" to read the back buffer?
  357. # [02:56] <oedipus> gavin, i'm sure there is a command -- it's highly configurable, i just spend too much time using IRC to learn the finer points of tIRC
  358. # [02:56] <gavin_> ah, ok
  359. # [02:56] <Hixie> Philip: added, reload to see new styles
  360. # [02:57] <Philip> Hixie: or maybe a .diff-new { color: inherit; border-bottom: 1px green solid; } or something - I don't really know :-)
  361. # [02:57] <Philip> Hixie: I guess that looks alright now
  362. # [02:58] <oedipus> gavin, if you are interested: http://www.talkingirc.net/
  363. # [02:58] <gavin_> thanks
  364. # [02:58] <oedipus> my pleasure
  365. # [03:00] <oedipus> when channels open, they do not do so maximized, but only whatever mIRC's default is, which is, apparently pretty constrained -- the only way to expand is to use arrow keys to move the mouse cursor along the title bar of the channel pane until one gets to the maximize button, but even then, one only gets what fits physically on the screen, unless, as i do when necessary, you open the log of the IRC session and read that to catch up
  366. # [03:01] <gavin_> oedipus: I just asked one of the ChatZilla developers whether there were any plugins for blind users - he says that it works relatively well with FireVox (http://firevox.clcworld.net/), but that there are some bugs that they're fixing for the next versions
  367. # [03:03] <gavin_> don't know if that was part of what you tried before
  368. # [03:03] <oedipus> yeah, i use FireVox regularly, but chatzilla is still a bear -- charles chen is a member of PF (protocols & formats http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF) and is collaborating with us on ARIA development and support
  369. # [03:05] <gavin_> ah, ok
  370. # [03:06] <gavin_> Gijs Kruitbosch is the guy I asked, you might know him - he was also involved in a few Mozilla-related accessibility initiatives
  371. # [03:06] <gavin_> anyhow, I suppose this discussion isn't quite on topic :)
  372. # [03:07] <oedipus> he also has a very cool extention/plugin called CLiCk, Speak which allows one to mark text to be spoken with a mouse -- he uses it to read mandarin content on the web, a language he knows aurally, but can't read visually -- http://clickspeak.clcworld.net/
  373. # [03:07] <oedipus> gavin, don't know gijs, but i have come across his work and recognize the name from the lists and fora
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  375. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> gavin_, oedipus - I heard that gijs is working on adding aria support to chatzilla
  376. # [03:10] <gavin> yeah, I think those are the bugs he was talking about
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  379. # [03:11] <gavin_> ah, actually, that part appears to already be fixed: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=376728
  380. # [03:12] * OedipusWrecked says to gavin that i'm glad i reconnected in time to hear the bug's been fixed
  381. # [03:13] <gavin> he mentioned other bug that still remain to be fixed, though
  382. # [03:13] <gavin> he said they should be fixed by the time Firefox 3 is released
  383. # [03:13] <OedipusWrecked> good - i test every build of FF3/Minefield
  384. # [03:14] <OedipusWrecked> they are supposed to fix the broken autocomplete run amok bug that entered the beta build 4 days ago
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  387. # [03:15] <gavin_> OedipusWrecked: ah, indeed! I actually reviewed that patch :)
  388. # [03:15] <OedipusWrecked> i admit that what ARIA needs is a DTD or schema for validation
  389. # [03:15] <gavin_> should be fixed in the latest build, I think
  390. # [03:15] <OedipusWrecked> hooray
  391. # [03:15] <gavin_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=406355
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  393. # [03:18] <OedipusWrecked> gavin, that's great - still think i need to write an extension that allows one to enter a URI through an input mechanism other than the location bar
  394. # [03:19] <gavin_> well, you can do File->Open Location when the location bar is removed or in a collapsed toolbar
  395. # [03:19] <gavin_> but that's actually rather similar to the location bar, so I'm not sure that would help
  396. # [03:20] <OedipusWrecked> i was emailing with marco zehe on this - a user might want one place with autocomplete on and one with it off or both or neither
  397. # [03:20] <OedipusWrecked> the SeaMonkey property sheets that control autocomplete action need to be ported to FF
  398. # [03:21] <gavin_> ah, yeah, the "Open Location" dialog also uses an autocomplete widget
  399. # [03:22] <OedipusWrecked> well, like one commenter said when trying it with narrator "zoinks"
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  401. # [03:23] <OedipusWrecked> UAWG through UAAG is addressing autocomplete control - it is a double-edge sword and again, would benifit from politeness levels - the thing is, autocomplete its an ABSOLUTELY essential assisstive technology for many
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  405. # [03:31] * OedipusWrecked waves to aaronlev and is glad to hear that the autocomplete bug is fixed in the next build
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  531. # Session Close: Sat Dec 08 00:00:00 2007

The end :)