/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-12-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 11 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:12] <DanC> oh... re microformats?
  4. # [00:12] <kingryan> yup
  5. # [00:13] <DanC> ok... swapping in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27 rel-ownership
  6. # [00:14] <DanC> anything specific?
  7. # [00:15] <kingryan> i'm interested to know what it is that the wg would want from the the microformats.org community
  8. # [00:15] <DanC> I've been thinking about the MOU... it's gonna involve a little creativity... like what happens if Rohit goes insane and turns off microformats.org
  9. # [00:15] <DanC> the MOU should give W3C the right to turn it back on
  10. # [00:15] <anne-mac> kingryan, the idea is to have a registry for rel= values
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  12. # [00:16] <kingryan> anne-mac: right, but in a wiki? html profiles? a plain text file?
  13. # [00:16] <DanC> in a wiki, I think
  14. # [00:16] <kingryan> and is the WG asking for influence in what gets registered and what doesn't?
  15. # [00:16] <DanC> a wiki with accountability to an IRC channel via mf-bot
  16. # [00:17] <anne-mac> a wiki, web service, something like that
  17. # [00:17] <DanC> no more influence than we already have, I don't think
  18. # [00:17] <Hixie> kingryan: my understanding is that it would be a replacement for http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions that isn't hosted on whatwg.org (though why that page isn't itself acceptable isn't clear to me)
  19. # [00:17] <Hixie> (i asked tantek about it during the plenary, fwiw, and he said he didn't want to host a list that hadn't gone through the microformats process, but maybe i misunderstood him)
  20. # [00:18] <DanC> it could be acceptable, if somebody is in the mood to write a liaison MOU for whatwg.org which, when run up the flagpole, gets saluted by the W3C membership
  21. # [00:18] <kingryan> Hixie: that sounds like his position the last time I talked to him
  22. # [00:18] <kingryan> btw, we already have a list at http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#formats
  23. # [00:18] <kingryan> which documents all rel values in html4 + stable microformats
  24. # [00:18] <Hixie> DanC: what would it have to say?
  25. # [00:18] <Hixie> (regardless of who is hosting the list, i mean)
  26. # [00:19] <Hixie> afk brb
  27. # [00:19] <DanC> the MOU would say, in sum, "Dear W3C membership, the microformats.org process is pretty good and cheap; let's use it."
  28. # [00:20] <DanC> " ... let's use it to manage rel= values" that is
  29. # [00:21] <DanC> the MOU should show that the persistence and accountability of http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#formats is as good as http://www.w3.org/2005/04/xpointer-schemes/
  30. # [00:22] <DanC> part of what makes w3.org persistent is money to defend it against lawsuits. What if some lunatic brings a trademark suit against microformats.org? who would defend it?
  31. # [00:22] <DanC> another point of comparison: http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/index.html
  32. # [00:23] <Hixie> (back)
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  34. # [00:23] <kingryan> DanC: if the w3c cares, perhaps part of MOU should state that the w3c would help defend microformats.org?
  35. # [00:23] <DanC> that's an idea
  36. # [00:24] <DanC> but it sorta argues against "microformats.org is cheap"
  37. # [00:24] <anne-mac> moving a registry shouldn't be a problem though
  38. # [00:24] <kingryan> anne-mac: even if it's baked into the spec?
  39. # [00:25] <DanC> uh... moving is expensive in URI-space; maybe somewhat less than meatspace, but it's still expensive. software updates are not free
  40. # [00:25] <anne-mac> kingryan, update the spec
  41. # [00:25] <DanC> the URIs from the spec will get copied into some software; updating the spec is pretty easy in comparison to re-deploying software
  42. # [00:26] <DanC> mostly software doesn't have to look up rel values, but the notion implicit in the spec is that it could
  43. # [00:26] <Philip> Refer to the registry via an "I'm Feeling Lucky" query instead of a direct URI, and then it will be insulated from domain name changes
  44. # [00:26] <kingryan> anne-mac: what DanC said
  45. # [00:26] <Hixie> DanC: if we have the registry off-w3.org, we could set up a redirect on w3.org to make the transition cheap in case of moves.
  46. # [00:26] <kingryan> me notes that searches for "rel values" on google points to http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq
  47. # [00:26] <Hixie> a "purl" if you will
  48. # [00:27] <anne-mac> what Hixie said sound sensible if that's a concern (althoug the API to scrape would have to be consistent somehow, but maybe you can't guarantee that anyway)
  49. # [00:27] <DanC> right; the fact that microformats.org has googlemark argues that the web community has already entrusted microformats.org with this duty
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  51. # [00:27] <Hixie> i'm certainly ok with moving the page to the microformats wiki if tantek is ok with it
  52. # [00:27] <Hixie> but like i said, when i asked him he said no
  53. # [00:27] <Hixie> so...
  54. # [00:28] <DanC> I don't see much motivation for a wholesale move; if we update the pointer from the spec, the content will migrate if the community wants it to
  55. # [00:29] <DanC> I'm not sure I understand what you said/wrote about a redirect from w3.org, Hixie
  56. # [00:29] <Hixie> i'm certainly ok with moving the extension registration page to the microformats wiki if tantek is ok with it
  57. # [00:29] <Hixie> but like i said, when i asked him he said no
  58. # [00:29] <Hixie> so...
  59. # [00:29] <Hixie> (i.e. i'm not talking about the contents of the page)
  60. # [00:29] <anne-mac> having a webservice still seems best to me
  61. # [00:29] <Hixie> i agree that we really want a web service
  62. # [00:30] <Hixie> but unless someone implements one, that's acadebic
  63. # [00:30] <Hixie> academic
  64. # [00:30] <DanC> when I tried to ask him, he wasn't available (though I didn't really say what I wanted to talk about). which is also a potential issue. the MOU would have to guarantee some bandwidth from people who have administrative roles in microformats.org
  65. # [00:31] <DanC> a webservice in the SOAP sense?! or is http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq a web service already?
  66. # [00:31] <Hixie> in the rest sense
  67. # [00:31] <Hixie> but yes
  68. # [00:31] <anne-mac> naturally it would be rest :)
  69. # [00:31] <Hixie> something to avoid having to scrape potentially changing wiki markup
  70. # [00:31] <DanC> mediawiki is a pretty REST-happy web service, for me
  71. # [00:31] <DanC> (though wikipedia's caching policy is buggy...)
  72. # [00:32] <Hixie> i just mean something to satisfy the needs of people like hsivonen, who have requested a simple unambiguous format
  73. # [00:32] <DanC> ah... some constraints on the mark-up seem in order. it would help for stuff like GRDDL->RDF too
  74. # [00:33] <shepazu> Parallels vs. VMWare Fusion.... Fight!
  75. # [00:33] <shepazu> anyone have experience with them?
  76. # [00:34] * DanC wonders if shepazu is looking for the channel two doors down... &sysreq
  77. # [00:34] <shepazu> well, I know that both hixie and mjs use macs
  78. # [00:35] <kingryan> in terms of formats for a registry/service, why not xmdp?
  79. # [00:35] <kingryan> it seems to fit the use case, and also would be useful as a profile in html4
  80. # [00:35] <Philip> shepazu: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20071210#l-228
  81. # [00:36] <shepazu> Philip, thanks
  82. # [00:36] <DanC> something like XMDP is fine, but XMDP in particular has not much going for it. I tried it and switched away for http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view
  83. # [00:37] <DanC> the cost of switching away from XMDP was zero (there are no XMDP-happy tools that I can no longer use) and the benefit was escaping some markup constraints that weren't helping me
  84. # [00:38] <DanC> "Previous versions used XMDP
  85. # [00:38] <DanC> (with grokXMDP.xsl), but in documenting domains and ranges of
  86. # [00:38] <DanC> properties, maintaining the XMDP convention of ids on the
  87. # [00:38] <DanC> dt rather than the dd element were too awkward
  88. # [00:38] <DanC> to maintain."
  89. # [00:38] <kingryan> DanC: that's fair
  90. # [00:38] <kingryan> either way, I just wanted to get an idea of the scope of what the WG wants mf.org to host
  91. # [00:39] * kingryan has to run now. bbiab
  92. # [00:39] <DanC> ok. hasta
  93. # [00:40] * DanC adds a link from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/27 to the log of the above chat
  94. # [00:41] * DanC wishes for somebody to tell public-html
  95. # [00:41] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Talk:RelExtensions
  96. # [00:58] <Hixie> it's not like we can drop support for document.write(), onfoo="", and javascript:...
  97. # [00:59] <Hixie> er, wrong channel
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  99. # [01:09] <kingryan> back now
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  101. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> DanC - ACTION-39 was recorded in the meeting minutes for last week's phone conference
  102. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> link to the minutes didn't show up on tracker because I guess tracker is not set up to watch the public-html-wg-announce list
  103. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> so I just sent a message to sysreq to ask that it be added
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  188. # [17:15] <DanC> swapping in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/31 SJC/Dec W3C video workshop
  189. # [17:16] <DanC> "Nokia and Apple have privately pushed to give Ogg the noose treatment (and so far succeeded) in HTML5. " privately?! how much more public could they be?!
  190. # [17:16] <DanC> re http://rudd-o.com/archives/2007/12/11/removal-of-ogg-vorbis-and-theora-from-html5-an-outrageous-disaster/
  191. # [17:16] <anne> is there a channel I can join?
  192. # [17:16] <DanC> yes
  193. # [17:16] <DanC> the workshop is tomorrow
  194. # [17:16] <anne> (reddit has more sensible posts on the same subject; there are 3 or so :) )
  195. # [17:17] <DanC> do tell
  196. # [17:17] <DanC> re IRC channel for video workshop: http://www.w3.org/2007/08/video/logistics #video
  197. # [17:17] <anne> there's http://programming.reddit.com/info/62p38/comments/
  198. # [17:18] <anne> ah, logistics wasn't up before
  199. # [17:19] <DanC> well, it's been up for a while, but I guess the pointer is only linked from stuff sent to registrants
  200. # [17:23] <DanC> anne, what has Mozilla said about ISSUE-7 video-codecs? can you help me find it? http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/7
  201. # [17:24] <anne> I don't think Mozilla has made any statements on this on the HTML WG
  202. # [17:24] <anne> Chris Double was quoted in an article that was republished quite a lot (and translated into Dutch, at least)
  203. # [17:24] <anne> About Opera and Mozilla publishing <video>
  204. # [17:26] <gsnedders> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=382267
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  212. # [18:48] <DanC> replay for my laptop...
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  214. # [18:49] <DanC> http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/12/09/2045200.shtml http://rudd-o.com/archives/2007/12/11/removal-of-ogg-vorbis-and-theora-from-html5-an-outrageous-disaster/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/31 SJC/Dec W3C video workshop
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  216. # [18:58] <Mike^emailme> I think maybe Jackie Chiles wrote the title for that rudd-o.com blog posting
  217. # [18:58] * Mike^emailme is now known as MikeSmith
  218. # [18:59] <Philip> I like the word "preposterous" (as in his email to the WHATWG)
  219. # [19:00] <Philip> It's a slightly preposterous word itself
  220. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> Philip - yeah, *preposterous* even, and in the subject, to boot
  221. # [19:01] <smedero> I remember now why I stopped reading /. This comment nicely explains some of the realities of the market: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=384173&cid=21634897 and yet the replies to it are total gibberish.
  222. # [19:04] <gsnedders> smedero: see my comment there? http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=384173&cid=21635031
  223. # [19:05] <smedero> (reading...) (and to be fair not all of the sub-replies were insane... )
  224. # [19:06] <smedero> huh... lovely dismissive comments there.
  225. # [19:06] <smedero> (not yours of course, the replies to yours...)
  226. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> lots of heat but little light
  227. # [19:19] <gsnedders> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-December/013186.html
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  244. # [20:17] * Joins: gavin__ (gavin@63.245.208.169)
  245. # [20:17] * Quits: gavin__ (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Quit: leaving)
  246. # [20:17] * Joins: jgraham (jgraham@81.86.217.3)
  247. # [20:37] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@209.6.168.245)
  248. # [20:57] * Quits: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22) (Ping timeout)
  249. # [21:04] * Quits: smedero (smedero@158.130.16.191) (Quit: smedero)
  250. # [21:09] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139)
  251. # [21:17] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.145.103) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  252. # [21:18] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  253. # [21:32] * Joins: edas (edaspet@82.233.238.50)
  254. # [21:45] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139) (Connection reset by peer)
  255. # [21:47] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  256. # [21:49] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.41.149) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  257. # [21:50] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139)
  258. # [21:50] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139) (Quit: hyatt)
  259. # [21:50] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139)
  260. # [21:52] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.74) (Ping timeout)
  261. # [21:54] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139) (Quit: hyatt)
  262. # [21:54] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139)
  263. # [21:56] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  264. # [22:03] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.41.149)
  265. # [22:07] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139) (Quit: hyatt)
  266. # [22:07] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139)
  267. # [22:07] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139) (Quit: hyatt)
  268. # [22:13] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  269. # [22:14] * Joins: kingryan (kingryan@74.95.195.25)
  270. # [22:18] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  271. # [22:24] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.231.139)
  272. # [22:41] * Quits: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Ping timeout)
  273. # [22:45] * Joins: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169)
  274. # [22:46] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  275. # [22:58] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  276. # [23:00] * Quits: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.161.254) (Quit: ciao)
  277. # [23:03] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.135.224.200) (Quit: gsnedders)
  278. # [23:03] * Quits: edas (edaspet@82.233.238.50) (Quit: Quitte)
  279. # [23:16] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.103)
  280. # [23:23] * Joins: jgraham_ (james@81.86.217.3)
  281. # [23:33] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@80.143.154.161)
  282. # [23:44] * Joins: anne-mac (annevk@80.202.68.88)
  283. # [23:49] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.135.224.200)
  284. # [23:52] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.135.224.200) (Quit: 404: Not Found)
  285. # Session Close: Wed Dec 12 00:00:00 2007

The end :)