/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-12-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 21 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  14. # [00:57] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
  15. # [00:57] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/12/20-html-wg-irc#T23-56-15
  16. # [00:57] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  17. # [00:57] <DanC> Zakim, this will be HTML
  18. # [00:57] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()7:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
  19. # [00:57] <Lachy> Hi
  20. # [00:57] <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2007-12-21T00:00UTC
  21. # [00:57] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  22. # [00:58] <DanC> hi Lachy
  23. # [00:58] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-19 html5-spec release
  24. # [00:58] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  25. # [00:59] <DanC> agenda + overlap with HTTP; new issue?
  26. # [00:59] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
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  28. # [00:59] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-7 video-codecs
  29. # [00:59] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
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  31. # [01:00] <DanC> agenda + Web Developer's Guide to HTML5, ACTION-34
  32. # [01:00] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  33. # [01:00] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has now started
  34. # [01:01] <Zakim> +??P0
  35. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  36. # [01:01] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  37. # [01:01] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  38. # [01:01] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  39. # [01:01] <Zakim> +DanC
  40. # [01:01] <Lachy> how long do you expect this telcon to go for?
  41. # [01:01] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode
  42. # [01:01] <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode', Lachy
  43. # [01:01] <DanC> 30 or 04 min
  44. # [01:01] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode?
  45. # [01:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
  46. # [01:01] <DanC> I'm expected someplace at 7pm, and it'll take me 15min to get there
  47. # [01:02] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  48. # [01:02] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2007-12-21T00:00UTC" taken up [from DanC]
  49. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  50. # [01:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/21-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  51. # [01:02] <DanC> regrets+ Marcin_Hanclik
  52. # [01:03] <oedipus> GJR is having PC problems which require sighted assistance which i have for the present -- i'll be listening to IRC and can call in if necessary / when done
  53. # [01:04] <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
  54. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> oedipus - always good to have on the phone as well iaf you can
  55. # [01:04] <DanC> we're below critical mass, so far. Lachy, are you calling in?
  56. # [01:04] <Lachy> maybe
  57. # [01:04] <DanC> Lachy, can you update the due date of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34 in any case?
  58. # [01:04] <Lachy> If I call, I can only call from a mobile, which is expensive, so I don't want to call for too long
  59. # [01:04] <DanC> we can prolly get our business done by IRC
  60. # [01:05] <MikeSmith> IRC is fine for me too
  61. # [01:05] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  62. # [01:05] <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-19 html5-spec release" taken up [from DanC]
  63. # [01:05] <oedipus> mike(tm)smith - thanks, if you need a quorum, i can call and put you on mute, although my speech synthesizer drives my sighted assistant crazy and she doesn't deal with multiple aural streams all that well...
  64. # [01:05] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0234.html January 22 publication date
  65. # [01:05] <DanC> so that's the news on spec release
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  67. # [01:06] <Zakim> + +47.40.4.aaaa
  68. # [01:06] <DanC> oh... also: Chris Wilson and I talked about the form of the question we'll put in early Jan: it'll be a numerical thing... something like: if we get 50 "yes" responses and less than 1/4 no votes, the question carries
  69. # [01:06] <oedipus> GJR: at User Agent Accessibility Guidelines WG call took an action item to review the first public draft for UA (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA) -- with especial attention to UA conformance
  70. # [01:07] <shepazu> Zakim, +47.40.4.aaaa is Lachy
  71. # [01:07] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  72. # [01:07] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  73. # [01:07] <Zakim> agendum 3. "overlap with HTTP; new issue?" taken up [from DanC]
  74. # [01:08] <DanC> ACTION: Dan to consider a new requirements issue about the overlap with HTTP
  75. # [01:08] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  76. # [01:08] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-41 - Consider a new requirements issue about the overlap with HTTP [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-12-28].
  77. # [01:08] * RRSAgent records action 12
  78. # [01:08] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  79. # [01:08] <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, DanC
  80. # [01:08] <DanC> Zakim, close item 3
  81. # [01:08] <Zakim> agendum 3, overlap with HTTP; new issue?, closed
  82. # [01:08] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  83. # [01:08] <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-7 video-codecs [from DanC]
  84. # [01:08] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  85. # [01:08] <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-7 video-codecs" taken up [from DanC]
  86. # [01:08] <MikeSmith> Chair: Dan Connolly
  87. # [01:09] <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/12/when_will_html_5_support_soone.html When will HTML 5 support <video>? Sooner if you help
  88. # [01:09] <DanC> ACTION-31 is closed
  89. # [01:09] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  90. # [01:09] <Zakim> agendum 5. "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5, ACTION-34" taken up [from DanC]
  91. # [01:09] * MikeSmith wonders if we need to do trackbot-ng, close action-31
  92. # [01:09] <DanC> new due date: end of 2008-01
  93. # [01:10] <DanC> Zakim, close item 5
  94. # [01:10] <Zakim> agendum 5, Web Developer's Guide to HTML5, ACTION-34, closed
  95. # [01:10] <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
  96. # [01:10] <DanC> next meeting: 10 Jan
  97. # [01:11] <Zakim> -Lachy
  98. # [01:11] <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
  99. # [01:11] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  100. # [01:11] <DanC> Zakim, drop Dan
  101. # [01:11] <Zakim> DanC is being disconnected
  102. # [01:11] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has ended
  103. # [01:11] <Zakim> Attendees were MikeSmith, DanC, Doug_Schepers, Lachy
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  105. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> Meeting, HTML working group weekly issue-tracking teleconference
  106. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML working group weekly issue-tracking teleconference
  107. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> Chair: DanC
  108. # [01:12] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG meets 10 Jan; expects to publish HTML 5 spec 22 Jan http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
  109. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> Present: DanConnolly, DougSchepers, LachlanHunt, MikeSmith
  110. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  111. # [01:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/21-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  112. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> i/next meeting/Topic: Next meeting/
  113. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  114. # [01:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/21-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  115. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML WG issue-tracking teleconference
  116. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  117. # [01:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/21-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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  145. # [03:01] <anne> hmm
  146. # [03:02] <anne> what overlap with HTTP?
  147. # [03:02] <anne> the minutes are all but clear
  148. # [03:21] <anne> Hixie, title="dom-tr-sectionRowIndex"><code>secondRowIndex</code></dfn> seems wrong
  149. # [03:21] <anne> second -> section
  150. # [03:22] <anne> although I'm not sure why rowIndex was incorrect, isn't there a rowIndex?
  151. # [03:28] <Hixie> uh, secondRowIndex, what was i thinking
  152. # [03:28] <Hixie> thanks
  153. # [03:29] <Hixie> rowIndex is the paragraph above it
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  156. # [03:32] <anne> oh ok
  157. # [03:32] <anne> then section -> second :)
  158. # [03:32] * anne wonders what secondRowIndex is
  159. # [03:32] * anne looks
  160. # [03:32] <Hixie> it's sectionRowInde
  161. # [03:32] <Hixie> x
  162. # [03:33] <anne> oh lol
  163. # [03:33] <anne> i'm clearly tired
  164. # [03:33] <Hixie> as was i when i wrote it :-P
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  166. # [03:34] <anne> g'night!
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  180. # [07:35] * Molly says hello to all
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  201. # [12:03] <krijnh> anne: ping
  202. # [12:03] <anne> pong
  203. # [12:03] <krijnh> Wat is een goede Nederlandse vertaling voor standaarden body's? (w3c, ietf, enz)
  204. # [12:04] <anne> Web standaard consortia?
  205. # [12:04] <krijnh> Hmm
  206. # [12:04] <krijnh> Hele mond vol :)
  207. # [12:05] <anne> of organisaties, maar dat zijn het niet echt...
  208. # [12:05] <krijnh> Standaardenbakkers..
  209. # [12:05] <anne> "W3C, etc." kan ook
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  213. # [14:17] <anne> re: globalStorage changes and some Firefox bug on the old globalStorage stuff: "This should block FF3 unless we decide we have time to obsolete the old syntax in favor of the new."
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  217. # [14:33] <hsivonen> Molly: I was wondering if there's someone on the case of Acid2 being broken at the moment
  218. # [14:33] <hsivonen> Molly: that is, http://www.webstandards.org/404/ returns HTTP 200 when it should return 404
  219. # [14:33] <Molly> Hi Henri. I'm aware of the concern but I have nothing to do with WaSP anymore. I gave David Storey from Opera some contact names
  220. # [14:33] <Molly> I'd be happy to give them to you as well!
  221. # [14:34] <hsivonen> Molly: OK. I trust it's enough if David Storey contacts whoever is in charge
  222. # [14:34] <hsivonen> Molly: thanks
  223. # [14:34] <Molly> sure! my pleasure.
  224. # [14:38] <Molly> actually I just pinged Drew McLellan - he says it's possibly related to WordPress but they're going to figure it out
  225. # [14:38] <Molly> we can torture them slowly if they don't within a reasonable time, okay? ;)
  226. # [14:38] <hsivonen> ok.
  227. # [14:45] <anne> the simplest thing for them is to simply replace the link with example.org/404
  228. # [14:45] <anne> hi btw
  229. # [14:45] <Molly> hi anne - yep, they're on it
  230. # [14:46] <Molly> it should be fixed today sometime
  231. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> Molly, nice to see you here
  232. # [14:49] <Molly> waves to Mike ~~~ nice to be at home instead of running around all the time :)
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  235. # [14:52] <Lachy> OMG! Dean is trolling www-style with his everyone-is-against-xhtml messages now. :-( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Dec/0171.html
  236. # [14:54] <anne> seems like a natural thing to do
  237. # [14:55] <hsivonen> http://55.co.nz/ is text/html
  238. # [14:56] <hsivonen> though it claims to Vary on User-Agent, so perhaps it's sometimes something else
  239. # [14:56] <Molly> here's a case of brilliance (not) from WaSP re link in Acid2 : " we're on our way to it being fixed. turns out http://webstandards.org/404 returns an HTTP 404, when http://www.webstandards.org/404 returns an HTTP 200."
  240. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> Molly - been meaning to ask, is there any information about what different layout engine IE8 will be using and where it came from?
  241. # [15:04] <Molly> I honestly don't know that answer yet
  242. # [15:04] <Molly> I'll be getting my first images next week
  243. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> great
  244. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> Do you know if it is new code or if it came from another product?
  245. # [15:05] <Molly> I honestly don't know.
  246. # [15:05] <Molly> Chris would know
  247. # [15:05] <Molly> and if he's at liberty to say
  248. # [15:05] <Molly> he'll tell you :)
  249. # [15:05] <Molly> but my work has had a lot less to do with the code base
  250. # [15:05] <Molly> and more with politicking
  251. # [15:05] <Molly> next week I'm going to get to dig around
  252. # [15:06] <Molly> so we'll see.
  253. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> Molly - will you be able to comment on it publicly, or run test cases and say what the results are?
  254. # [15:09] <gsnedders> Called a smartass kid by a member of the WG :\
  255. # [15:10] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Chris has said it's new, in such a way to imply it's new code
  256. # [15:11] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: what he flatly denied outright is it's code from outwith MS
  257. # [15:11] <Molly> I hope I"ll be able to comment publicly. If I start getting pushback on that, you can be sure I'll start to become loud and annoying to Microsoft :)
  258. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - thanks
  259. # [15:12] <Molly> @gsnedders : I've called you a smartass before. But I'm not a member of the WG! So you mustn't be talking about me :)
  260. # [15:12] <gsnedders> Molly: not on -archive + cc'd to chairs when replying to a compliant about your behaviour on public-html
  261. # [15:13] <Molly> well that's mean :I
  262. # [15:13] <hsivonen> Molly: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Dec/0090.html
  263. # [15:13] <gsnedders> making me consider again whether I should stay in this WG :\
  264. # [15:14] <Molly> oh consider the source
  265. # [15:14] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I suggest staying and avoiding certain threads
  266. # [15:15] <gsnedders> hsivonen: ya, but at time it means ignoring everything. what's the point in that at all?
  267. # [15:15] <Molly> I say rise above it
  268. # [15:15] <Molly> be the better person
  269. # [15:15] * gsnedders has better things to do with his time
  270. # [15:16] <Lachy> gsnedders, just learn which people to avoid in the future
  271. # [15:16] <hsivonen> for extra effectiveness, factor in In-Reply-To
  272. # [15:17] <Lachy> There are several people on public-html I already avoid responding to and the tactic seems to be working so far
  273. # [15:17] * Molly goes off to breakfast back later
  274. # [15:18] <gsnedders> Molly: can we have a comma so I can parse that?
  275. # [15:19] <Molly> pancakes in the shape of ampersands
  276. # [15:19] <Molly> and link sausages
  277. # [15:19] <Molly> stop me. this will get too silly :)
  278. # [15:19] <anne> it already is :p
  279. # [15:19] <gsnedders> Silly? Molly?
  280. # [15:20] <gsnedders> so much of my music is too joyful :\
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  283. # [15:44] <gsnedders> does anyone do the inverse (i.e., mark emails from people you think are good)
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  288. # [15:46] <Lachy> gsnedders, I do
  289. # [15:47] <Lachy> just for Philip though, to more easily distinguish him from the other one
  290. # [15:48] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@209.6.168.245)
  291. # [15:51] <gsnedders> "You are currently using 497 MB (8%) of your 5914 MB." — That's just mailing lists since 2006 :\
  292. # [15:51] * Philip feels special
  293. # [15:53] * Philip should probably not use four different email addresses, to further confuse people as to who he is
  294. # [15:54] * gsnedders only finds two
  295. # [15:54] * gsnedders finds a third
  296. # [15:55] <Philip> "The script element allows authors to include dynamic script in their documents." - that seems wrong, given how people use it to embed XML and shaders and other things which are never meant to be executed
  297. # [15:55] <Philip> (I think the fourth is only on the WHATWG list)
  298. # [15:55] <gsnedders> ah, then I have found all four.
  299. # [15:56] * gsnedders has multiple people in the + section
  300. # [15:56] <gsnedders> and before anyone makes up a WHATWG-are-taking-over conspiracy, there are a number of people whose opinions I normally disagree with on that list
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  304. # [16:21] <Lachy> hmm. DanC thinks we can go from CR to REC in just 13 months.
  305. # [16:22] <DanC> yup
  306. # [16:22] <DanC> the key is to build tests as we address issues
  307. # [16:22] <Lachy> How do you expect to produce a comprehensive test suite and achieve 2 interoperable implementations of the whole spec within that time?
  308. # [16:22] <DanC> we have a lot of test materials in progress
  309. # [16:22] <DanC> I don't expect to produce a comprehensive test suite; just a good-enough test suite
  310. # [16:23] <Lachy> define "good enough"?
  311. # [16:23] <DanC> experience will define good enough
  312. # [16:23] * DanC checks the charter and finds "comprehensive test suite". hmm. oh well; that's still subject to judgement
  313. # [16:24] * gsnedders would count comprehensive at checking every possible if statement
  314. # [16:24] <DanC> I plan to do the best test suite we can in the next year or two
  315. # [16:24] <Lachy> CSS 2.1 has been CR for several years now (though it went back to WD in between)
  316. # [16:24] <DanC> assertion-based testing isn't all that valuable in my experience; I don't mind if somebody does it
  317. # [16:25] <Lachy> it looks like it was first published as CR in 2004
  318. # [16:25] <DanC> I don't think CSS is a good example of how to manage the W3C process
  319. # [16:25] <hsivonen> DanC: is there a good example that we should learn from?
  320. # [16:26] <Lachy> I'm referring to the time it is taking for CSS2.1 to be interoperably implemented
  321. # [16:26] <DanC> I've done several timely test suites: RDF Core, OWL, SPARQL, and GRDDL. I'm reasonably happy with all of those, though their scope is hundreds of times smaller than HTML's
  322. # [16:26] <Lachy> also CSS2.0 went Rec in 1998 (before the CR phase was introduced in the W3C), so that's been nearly 10 years and we still don't have 2 interoperable implementations
  323. # [16:26] <DanC> I expect a massively parallel testing and QA effort for HTML
  324. # [16:27] <Lachy> DanC, of course. Implementation and testing is currently going on. But it's taking a long time
  325. # [16:27] * DanC isn't particularly interested in using CSS as an example
  326. # [16:27] <hsivonen> DanC: It seems to me we lack a massive number of competent and willing test case writers
  327. # [16:27] * Lachy isn't particularly interested in using RDF and GRDDL as examples
  328. # [16:28] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  329. # [16:28] <DanC> hsivonen, we have a lot of recruiting to do, indeed. But we don't need to write *that* many tests. The bulk of the manual labor is in reporting test results.
  330. # [16:29] <Lachy> DanC, roughly how many test cases would you estimate we would need for the whole spec? (just a rough figure to the nearest 1000 or so)
  331. # [16:30] <DanC> Lachy, there's no way to make a compelling argument about how long something will take. June 2009 is my best guess based on what I know today. Maybe in a few months I'll know different.
  332. # [16:30] <DanC> I think I've estimated 15,000 to 50,000 test cases.
  333. # [16:31] <Lachy> I just don't understand why you're being so persistent with your estimates, despite getting feedback about them being unrealisting on several occasions.
  334. # [16:31] <Lachy> *unrealistic
  335. # [16:31] <DanC> because I want to get finished, and repeating something does make it come true.
  336. # [16:32] <DanC> I'm not sure what you mean by "so persistent". I've changed my estimates several times
  337. # [16:32] <Lachy> I think we all want to get finished. I just want to be realistic.
  338. # [16:33] <Lachy> DanC, your estimates have always been fairly close to those given in the charter, varying only by a few months
  339. # [16:33] <DanC> I want to be realistic too; keep in mind that postponing features to a later release is always an option, and often a good one.
  340. # [16:34] <Lachy> so in order to get done by your time frame, you would suggest moving some features to HTML6, and publishing a smaller HTML5?
  341. # [16:34] <DanC> yes
  342. # [16:35] <gsnedders> in HTML 5 we need to define current browser features, even if no more.
  343. # [16:35] <DanC> "need" is a strong word.
  344. # [16:35] <DanC> we need to advance the state of the art; we don't need to solve all problems in one rev
  345. # [16:36] <anne> test results are hardly the issue
  346. # [16:36] <gsnedders> DanC: as someone who would like to create a HTML UA, yet someone who doesn't have huge amounts of time to spend reverse engineering current behaviour, it seems pointless to not define something interoperability
  347. # [16:36] <anne> creating the tests and getting implementors to fix the bugs is
  348. # [16:36] <anne> always has been the issue
  349. # [16:37] <DanC> yes, anne ; we should focus testing effort toward that end
  350. # [16:37] <DanC> that's why assertion testing is less interesting to me; there's little bang-for-the-buck in writing test cases for stuff that is already interoperably deployed
  351. # [16:38] <hsivonen> I'm sure given politics at the time, DTDs had to be in XML, but wow they sure are a pain for implementations
  352. # [16:38] <anne> also, going from CR to REC in 13 months seems optimistic if the test suite isn't ready by the time we go to CR
  353. # [16:38] <DanC> there's still _some_ value in it, and I hope somebody does it. but it's not a high priority
  354. # [16:38] <anne> (and even then it would be optimistic)
  355. # [16:38] <DanC> the test suite will be in some state of readiness as we go to CR
  356. # [16:38] <gsnedders> DanC: I'd question how you can be sure the stuff is interoperably deployed without test suites
  357. # [16:38] <anne> sure, they're in some state of readyiness now :)
  358. # [16:39] <anne> i guess we'll see how it goes
  359. # [16:39] <DanC> gsnedders, indeed, it's easier to be sure with more data.
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  371. # [18:07] <dzmat> I have read in news that W3C discarded Ogg Theora codec as standart codec for HTML5. Is it true? Where can i read about this?
  372. # [18:08] <hsivonen> dzmat: that's not an accurate characterization of what happened
  373. # [18:09] <Sander> dzmat: All that's happened is that the draft has been updated to reflect that there's no consensus on any required standard (the requirement of ogg before was effectively meaningless). Discussions and research are ongoing, and a final decision is still very far away.
  374. # [18:09] <hsivonen> dzmat: you can read more about it in the WHATWG archives
  375. # [18:10] <hsivonen> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-December/date.html
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  377. # [18:12] <dzmat> hsivonen: hmm, your link give me 404 error :-(
  378. # [18:13] <dzmat> sorry
  379. # [18:13] <hsivonen> works for me
  380. # [18:13] <dzmat> i've lost last char during copy-paste
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  429. # Session Close: Sat Dec 22 00:00:00 2007

The end :)