/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-01-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 03 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:01] <Hixie> because we wanted the 'inherit' keyword not to depend on layout
  4. # [00:01] <Hixie> and used values depend on layout
  5. # [00:04] <mjs> that makes sense for the inherit keyword I guess, though not for getComputedStyle()
  6. # [00:05] <mjs> getComputedStyle() should fully resolve values that depend on layout
  7. # [00:05] <Hixie> even used values are not fully resolved values
  8. # [00:05] <Hixie> or rather
  9. # [00:05] <mjs> also, the z-index thing doesn't depend on layout, but I am not sure it is a used/computed distinction
  10. # [00:05] <mjs> yeah, there's "actual values"
  11. # [00:05] <Hixie> what you want is a "rendering dom", which makes everything absolute, or relative to specific nodes
  12. # [00:05] <mjs> (the case with z-index is that there is a computed value which does not apply, and therefore acts like auto)
  13. # [00:06] <Hixie> the used values, and even the actual values, aren't actually that useful in many cases
  14. # [00:06] <mjs> a Rendering Object Model
  15. # [00:06] <Hixie> e.g. z-index -- you really want the final stacking order across all the tree
  16. # [00:06] <mjs> is the acronym ROM taken?
  17. # [00:06] <anne> http://www.w3.org/TR/rom/
  18. # [00:06] <anne> (no)
  19. # [00:07] <Hixie> yeah that wouldn't be confusing with rom chips at all :-P
  20. # [00:07] <Hixie> anyway
  21. # [00:07] <anne> I'm not sure why it would be confusing with that, oh well
  22. # [00:07] <mjs> my suggestion was meant to be humorous
  23. # [00:07] <Hixie> getComputedStyle is a dumb api in generl, made by a committee that didn't understand what was needed
  24. # [00:07] <mjs> but it's not the world's worst idea
  25. # [00:09] <anne> i've done some work on fixing the current stuff, but it's rather painful
  26. # [00:10] <anne> mostly because CSS doesn't define a whole lot
  27. # [00:10] <mjs> given the way CSS works, designing a good API is hard
  28. # [00:10] <anne> oh yeah, I haven't really started looking in that area yet
  29. # [00:10] <mjs> because you want the API for inspecting the layout/style to line up with the API for changing it, but the way that CSS works, the path from inputs to outputs can be highly non-obvious
  30. # [00:11] <anne> mostly documenting stuff like offsetHeight, StyleSheet, etc.
  31. # [00:12] <mjs> yeah, that's useful work
  32. # [00:15] <gsnedders> OK, pushing a release of SP with HTML 5's Content-Type sniffing
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  88. # [10:26] <anne> blimey, lots of access control e-mails
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  93. # [10:55] <anne> found 3 differences between HTML5 and Gecko
  94. # [10:55] <anne> in doctype sniffing
  95. # [10:55] <anne> seems that HTML5 is based on WebKit
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  99. # [11:02] <anne> hmm, it doesn't work in IE7
  100. # [11:02] <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/parsing/doctype/001.htm
  101. # [11:10] <mjs> anne: what are the differences?
  102. # [11:10] <mjs> we meant to copy Gecko
  103. # [11:14] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0006.html
  104. # [11:15] <anne> you can run my testcase in Safari btw and it will probably give you the same results
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  106. # [11:25] <mjs> when I run it in Safari it says "Error" for every line
  107. # [11:27] <anne> that sounds a lot like IE
  108. # [11:27] * anne thought his script was pretty basic stuff, wonders what went wrong
  109. # [11:28] <anne> maybe that the iframe references some 404? that wasn't intentional actually; Firefox didn't work with src=about:blank for some reason
  110. # [11:31] <anne> or maybe document.body is null or so, oh well
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  113. # [12:12] <anne> mjs, it could fail in Safari if you don't do document.compatMode, someone told me you guys might not do that
  114. # [12:13] <mjs> we appear not to
  115. # [12:13] <mjs> but it's in the latest trunk
  116. # [12:13] <mjs> so I can try it in my source build once that completes
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  118. # [12:21] <anne> kk
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  122. # [13:02] <Hixie> anne: it's odd that the spec would differ from gecko
  123. # [13:03] <Hixie> anne: given that i literally copied gecko line for line and did regular expressions on the gecko source to get the spec's text...
  124. # [13:04] <nickshanks> heh
  125. # [13:07] <nickshanks> can I as a web developer set document.compatMode to a value of 'CSS1Compat' to force strict mode even for sites that would otherwise not be? (e.g. with greasemonkey)
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  127. # [13:07] <Hixie> no
  128. # [13:07] <Hixie> it's readonly
  129. # [13:08] <Philip> The three missing ones are consecutive in the source code (http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/parser/htmlparser/src/nsParser.cpp#684) which seems unlikely to be a coincidence
  130. # [13:08] <Philip> nickshanks: You might as a user be able to force your browser to use strict mode for all pages
  131. # [13:08] <Hixie> oh maybe i dropped them because they had zero hits in my survey
  132. # [13:08] <Hixie> i remember looking to make sure all the doctypes actually occured in practice
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  134. # [13:12] <mjs> anne: in WebKit TOT the test always reports "No Quirks Mode"
  135. # [13:12] <mjs> anne: not sure if this is a WebKit bug or a flaw in the test methodology
  136. # [13:13] <mjs> nickshanks: I believe it's read-only
  137. # [13:13] <nickshanks> a read/write option would be nice sometime in the future then :)
  138. # [13:15] <Philip> If it could be written, when would any changes take effect?
  139. # [13:16] <Hixie> yeah the quirks are not easily enable-disableable dynamically
  140. # [13:16] <Hixie> they often affect things like parsing
  141. # [13:16] <mjs> it does look like document.compatMode does what is expected in TOT WebKit
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  143. # [13:16] <mjs> nickshanks: letting users get broken rendering isn't super high on the priority list of engine developers I think
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  176. # [18:18] <anne> Hixie, the suspicious thing is that HTML5 matches WebKit and not Gecko
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  181. # [18:59] <anne> magic <body> ftw
  182. # [18:59] <anne> mjs, maybe it reports an unexpected value for offsetHeight
  183. # [18:59] <anne> or does <div style=width:10>.style.width different from other browsers
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The end :)