/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-01-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 09 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:16] <anne> woohoo, ASCII case-insensitive CSS and case-sensitive author defined IDENTS (such as namespace prefixes, counter names, etc.)
  4. # [00:17] <anne> Hixie, re #whatwg, SVG as 'background' could be one of the tests you have on the side
  5. # [00:18] <anne> Hixie, is media queries part of Acid3 yet?
  6. # [00:18] <anne> you could use "only all" on the main style sheet for instance :)
  7. # [00:18] <Hixie> i really don't want to add more "on the side" tests
  8. # [00:19] <Hixie> i have a whole section on media queries
  9. # [00:19] <Hixie> a whole test, rather
  10. # [00:19] <anne> number?
  11. # [00:19] * anne missed it
  12. # [00:19] <Hixie> not sure offhand
  13. # [00:19] <Hixie> search for @media
  14. # [00:20] <anne> ah, 46
  15. # [00:20] <anne> missed that
  16. # [00:22] <anne> testing outline-offset in some way?
  17. # [00:22] <Hixie> this is a dom/scripting test
  18. # [00:22] <Hixie> i'd like to stick to scriptable stuff
  19. # [00:22] <anne> you could test it through computed style and all
  20. # [00:22] <Hixie> really at this point i just need one spec for which i can write 16 tests
  21. # [00:22] <anne> cursor:url() without fallback might be another good one to test...
  22. # [00:23] <Hixie> how?
  23. # [00:23] <anne> although I guess that only fails in IE
  24. # [00:23] <Hixie> what i really want to test is cursor url with a hotspot coordinate
  25. # [00:23] <Hixie> but you can't really test visual things from the dom
  26. # [00:23] <Hixie> you just encourage browsers to fake the support in the dom
  27. # [00:24] <Hixie> which is the opposite of what i want to encourage
  28. # [00:24] <anne> cursor:help; cursor:url(); cursorMustBeHelp()
  29. # [00:24] <Hixie> eh, that's not a big deal
  30. # [00:24] <shepazu> could add a cursorState property
  31. # [00:25] <shepazu> for testing
  32. # [00:25] <Hixie> anne: anyway, we already have a number of 'cursor' tests
  33. # [00:25] <Hixie> anne: what we need is new tests
  34. # [00:25] <Hixie> anne: for bucket 5
  35. # [00:25] <Hixie> anne: i just need some spec to test the heck out of
  36. # [00:26] <anne> so I still think SVG would be nice, but you want to test that visually ideally
  37. # [00:26] <Hixie> right
  38. # [00:26] <Hixie> so svg is out
  39. # [00:27] <shepazu> Hixie, any advice on making an SVG Acid test?
  40. # [00:27] <Hixie> shepazu: get the spec fixed first :-)
  41. # [00:27] <shepazu> lol
  42. # [00:27] <Hixie> (seriously -- that's one of the main reasons i don't want to go near svg in acid3, i don't want to constrain how the spec can be fixed)
  43. # [00:28] <anne> are you testing xml:base ?
  44. # [00:28] <Hixie> no
  45. # [00:29] <Hixie> i could i guess
  46. # [00:29] <Hixie> but that wouldn't be 16 tests :-)
  47. # [00:29] <anne> right
  48. # [00:32] * Quits: edas (edaspet@82.233.238.50) (Ping timeout)
  49. # [00:34] * anne gives up
  50. # [00:34] <Hixie> heh
  51. # [00:34] <Hixie> now you see my problem :-)
  52. # [00:34] <jgraham> So... MathML ;)
  53. # [00:35] <Hixie> does it have a dom?
  54. # [00:35] <Hixie> (that people agree should be implemented?)
  55. # [00:35] <jgraham> Dunno.
  56. # [00:35] <jgraham> I think not
  57. # [00:35] <anne> MathML is like SVG, more about rendering (at this stage anyway)
  58. # [00:36] <shepazu> it does have a DOM and a fair-sized API, but I don't think the API is implemented anywhere
  59. # [00:36] <jgraham> Actually it does seem to have a bit of DOM
  60. # [00:37] <Hixie> the parenthetical was really the more relevant question
  61. # [00:38] <anne> seems better to not implement it and only do it when actual scenarios come up from authors
  62. # [00:38] <jgraham> It wasn't really intended as a serious suggestion since MathML implementations are generally rather few and far between
  63. # [00:38] <shepazu> I don't know how critical the MathML WG thinks the DOM aspect is, apart from the rendering
  64. # [00:38] <anne> (re MathML DOM)
  65. # [00:38] <shepazu> maybe you could ask the MathML WG about that
  66. # [00:39] <Hixie> the problem with both MathML and E4X is that not all the browser vendors agree that it should be implemented at all, which makes it inappropriate for an acid test.
  67. # [00:40] <shepazu> I think there are plenty of stable and well-defined features in SVG that could be in an Acid Test
  68. # [00:40] <jgraham> Yeah, I tend to agree with that (not that it shouldn't be implemented but that it shouldn't be part of a DOM/script acid test)
  69. # [00:40] <shepazu> and that would put more pressure on MS to implement it
  70. # [00:41] <Hixie> specs should get implemented on their own merits, not on the merits of trying to pass an acid test
  71. # [00:41] <anne> in light of that statement I wonder about DOM traversal...
  72. # [00:42] <Hixie> yeah, dom traversal is difficult to justify, but easier to justify than svg at least :-)
  73. # [00:42] <shepazu> this isn't about merit, Hixie, it's about interoperability
  74. # [00:42] <jgraham> To be fair SVG already has several implementations
  75. # [00:42] <shepazu> IE is the only modern browser without SVG support
  76. # [00:43] <Philip> What about Konqueror?
  77. # [00:44] <jgraham> How many people actually use Konqueror?
  78. # [00:44] <Philip> That doesn't make it not a modern browser :-)
  79. # [00:44] <anne> so apart from SVG and xml:base W3C doesn't have realistic candidates anymore; data: URIs, URIs, HTTP, and ECMAScript are already in... hmm
  80. # [00:45] <shepazu> I think that Konq has SVG support
  81. # [00:45] <Philip> (I'd assume KDE4 Konqueror does SVG, but the latest released version doesn't appear to)
  82. # [00:45] <shepazu> but don't quote me on that
  83. # [00:46] <jgraham> Philip: Fair enough, although I guess I could describe Amaya as "modern" if modern means "under active development" :)
  84. # [00:46] <Philip> shepazu: Hmm, it doesn't seem to be supported when I test it - I just get a white box
  85. # [00:47] <shepazu> huh... I'll have to research that more... I'd have thought it would align to WebKit more
  86. # [00:49] <Philip> jgraham: I'll say that "modern" means "under active development and implements recently-specified features and intends to actually work for at least some users", so it includes Konqueror (since the developers have been adding CSS3 and <canvas> and SVG and things, even if they're not in the current releases) and excludes Amaya/Links/etc
  87. # [00:50] <shepazu> hmmm... Amaya is still under development, and does support SVG, though not yet <canvas>
  88. # [00:50] <Philip> Oh, maybe I just need to install KSVG
  89. # [00:50] <jgraham> Philip: I'm not really disputing that Konq. is a modern browser.
  90. # [00:51] <Philip> shepazu: Amaya doesn't seem to be designed for users, though
  91. # [00:52] * Philip waits for KSVG to compile
  92. # [00:52] <Hixie> amaya doesn't even pass acid1, does it?
  93. # [00:54] <Hixie> anne: is xhr going to LC soon?
  94. # [00:56] <anne> i've been requesting that for some time, but there seems to be some delay on the chair/W3C/new group thingie side
  95. # [00:56] <Hixie> sigh
  96. # [00:56] <anne> xhr2 should've been published as FPWD already as well ages ago
  97. # [00:57] <anne> and I think we should move access-control to Last Call but I guess with the current storm of e-mails that's unlikely to happen
  98. # [00:57] <jgraham> Hixie: I assume per the earlier discussion that DOM 3 XPath doesn't meet the criteria for testing despite being widely implemented and occasionally quite useful?
  99. # [00:57] <Hixie> anne: there hasn't been anything new in those e-mails has there?
  100. # [00:57] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, i don't really want to test DOM3 XPath
  101. # [00:57] <anne> as far as I can tell it's exactly the same discussion we had at the technical planery
  102. # [00:58] <anne> and before the TPAC as the TPAC was already repeating said stuff (though I did get some nice insights on the caching :) )
  103. # [00:58] <Philip> shepazu: Aha, Konqueror does do SVG once I install the right bits
  104. # [00:58] <Philip> (though it gets the background colour wrong and doesn't resize properly)
  105. # [00:58] <shepazu> well, I guess it's modern, then ;P
  106. # [00:59] <Philip> (and it still handles XHTML idiotically)
  107. # [00:59] <anne> Hixie, the other new thing is that Jon (maybe others too?) can't grasp the use cases
  108. # [01:00] <Philip> (See e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml which really shouldn't look so broken)
  109. # [01:00] <anne> you'd think that the Ajax ??? lead would know what to use client-side cross-site requests for
  110. # [01:01] <Philip> (assuming I haven't just got an unusually broken version of Konqueror installed)
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  112. # [01:03] <Hixie> anne: no comment
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  207. # [17:07] <DanC> shepazu, seen MikeSmith today?
  208. # [17:08] * DanC finishes up some hacking, gets ready to send telcon agenda and such
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  231. # [19:15] <DanC> 1st draft: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd-html5-spec/
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  236. # [19:45] <gsnedders> DanC: "…and one of (Dan Connolly, Chris Wilson, Mike Smith)." — why the parentheses? "Dan Connolly, Chris Wilson, or Mike Smith." makes more sense in normal English.
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  238. # [19:46] <DanC> ()s were a left-over. thanks for the suggestion. done.
  239. # [19:46] <gsnedders> (my only other is issue is that I have a preference of a pure > 50% majority, not 2/3rds)
  240. # [19:47] <DanC> I think the risk of more than a handful of 'no' votes is minimal
  241. # [19:48] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG meets 10 Jan 17:00UTC; expects to publish HTML 5 spec 22 Jan http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
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  255. # [21:28] <anne-mac> in case this hasn't been mentioned: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd-html5-spec/
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  257. # [21:37] <gsnedders> anne-mac: DanC linked to it as a first draft, but nothing more
  258. # [21:37] <anne-mac> i suggest everyone here answers it
  259. # [21:37] <DanC> I mailed html-wg-announce about it, no?
  260. # [21:37] <gsnedders> DanC: yeah
  261. # [21:37] <gsnedders> (I meant in here)
  262. # [21:38] <DanC> ah
  263. # [21:38] * anne-mac too
  264. # [21:38] <gsnedders> see, I read anne's mind :)
  265. # [21:39] <gsnedders> DanC: do you particularly care if yes votes give no rationale?
  266. # [21:39] <DanC> no, I don't
  267. # [21:39] <DanC> "As publication is necessary for progress of the group and this is a non-technical question, we will decide it by counting votes."
  268. # [21:39] <gsnedders> so it's really nothing more than for formal objections?
  269. # [21:40] <DanC> and for documenting positive support
  270. # [21:49] * Joins: Dashiva (noone@84.48.60.15)
  271. # [21:54] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.15.207)
  272. # [22:05] <mjs> don't forget to vote: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd-html5-spec/results
  273. # [22:07] * Philip wonders why the "last responded on ..." lines are missing for the Member organisations
  274. # [22:07] <Dashiva> anne-mac: Do you vote for all of Opera?
  275. # [22:09] <mjs> Dashiva: this appears to be a per-Organization survey, not an individual one
  276. # [22:09] <anne-mac> yes
  277. # [22:09] <anne-mac> i'm in charge (evil grin)
  278. # [22:09] <mjs> looking at the organizations, I'm not sure there are 14 who have voted on a survey ever
  279. # [22:09] <mjs> so it might be hard to make quorum
  280. # [22:10] <Philip> Can Members be kicked out for inactivity?
  281. # [22:10] <Dashiva> anne-mac: You should get chaals to cricket-bat david then :)
  282. # [22:10] <mjs> in other Working Groups, yes, in this one, no
  283. # [22:10] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.255.105.174)
  284. # [22:11] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@17.255.105.174) (Quit: mjs_)
  285. # [22:11] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189) (Ping timeout)
  286. # [22:12] * gsnedders is scared of anne-mac
  287. # [22:12] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  288. # [22:12] * Philip is more scared of the person with the cricket bat
  289. # [22:13] <Dashiva> Oh darn, I wasn't supposed to mention that
  290. # [22:14] <anne-mac> that's a violation of your NDA, you're now officially screwed :p
  291. # [22:20] * Joins: edas (edaspet@82.233.238.50)
  292. # [22:25] * Joins: edaspet (edaspet@82.233.238.50)
  293. # [22:27] * Quits: edas (edaspet@82.233.238.50) (Ping timeout)
  294. # [22:31] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189)
  295. # [22:47] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@69.140.40.140)
  296. # [22:50] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@69.140.40.140) (Ping timeout)
  297. # [23:09] * Quits: edaspet (edaspet@82.233.238.50) (Quit: Quitte)
  298. # [23:09] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.137.236.187) (Quit: Partying in teh intarwebs)
  299. # [23:11] * Joins: sbuluf (syhpdsu@200.49.132.73)
  300. # [23:22] * Quits: anne-mac (annevk@77.163.243.203) (Ping timeout)
  301. # [23:22] <Lachy> woo hoo, another survey :-)
  302. # [23:24] <Philip> Lachy: Can I get a prize for guessing what you'll vote?
  303. # [23:25] <Lachy> I don't get to vote individually, anne already did
  304. # [23:25] <Philip> Oh, okay :-(
  305. # [23:32] <mjs> I have a feeling the survey will fail to meet the organization quorum
  306. # [23:36] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.210.78) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  307. # [23:57] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.210.78)
  308. # Session Close: Thu Jan 10 00:00:00 2008

The end :)