/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-01-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jan 13 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  15. # [08:38] * Hixie updates the SotD section to address Jason's concerns
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  20. # [11:28] <Dashiva> Hixie: The r1155 commit mail claims there were no changes at all, except the date...
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  25. # [12:39] <zcorpan> Dashiva: you need to look at the w3c cvs
  26. # [12:40] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html.diff?r1=1.345&r2=1.346&f=h
  27. # [12:47] <zcorpan> has jason changed his vote?
  28. # [12:47] <zcorpan> or didn't he formally object?
  29. # [12:47] <Philip> He didn't formally object
  30. # [12:48] <zcorpan> ok
  31. # [12:49] <gavin> he abstained
  32. # [12:49] <zcorpan> btw, naming the spec "(X)HTML5" probably isn't such a bad idea. i keep seeing people blogging about not liking html5 because it isn't xhtml
  33. # [12:51] <gavin_> and you think their opinion is based solely on the name?
  34. # [12:51] <zcorpan> well, they obviously didn't read the spec
  35. # [12:52] <zcorpan> if they knew that it was xhtml as well then maybe they would have different opinions
  36. # [12:53] <zcorpan> and the spec title is an effective way to communicate that, i think
  37. # [12:54] <Philip> Maintain two separate copies of the spec, with an identical body but change the title from "HTML5" to "XHTML5", and see which one people prefer
  38. # [12:54] <zcorpan> hehe :)
  39. # [12:56] <zcorpan> i don't understand what Oxford Brookes University (Bob Hopgood) think is missing in the spec...
  40. # [13:00] <hsivonen> 4 Members to go it seems
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  42. # [13:00] <hsivonen> until quorum
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  49. # [13:13] <zcorpan> i also see comments such as "xhtml is dying, html5 is the future"
  50. # [13:14] <zcorpan> it's not clear to me that the message we want to send is that we're killing xhtml
  51. # [13:16] <xover> You mean ridiculing and harassing the XHTML2 WG /isn't/ part of our Charter?
  52. # [13:18] <zcorpan> i didn't imply anything about the xhtml2 wg... but yeah, that's not part of our charter :)
  53. # [13:18] <Dashiva> xover: Sure it is, but that's just xhtml2. We also have xhtml5
  54. # [13:19] <zcorpan> Dashiva: the xhtml2 wg are also "working" on xhtml1.1
  55. # [13:19] <xover> We should band together and ridicule whatever WG is responsible for that too then.
  56. # [13:26] <jgraham> Is self-ridicule part of our charter? It ought to be, we really deserve it...
  57. # [13:27] <xover> Deserved or not, a healthy dose of self-ridicule can only be for the good.
  58. # [13:30] <Philip> If it wasn't for the good, the dose wouldn't be a healthy one :-)
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  60. # [13:38] <gsnedders> Philip: but then there'd be four competing specs!
  61. # [13:38] <gsnedders> (excluding XHTML2)
  62. # [13:48] <hsivonen> so what happened to the XHTML2 rebranding thing?
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  64. # [14:27] <Lachy> maybe we could add a subtitle that mentions XHTML
  65. # [14:28] <hsivonen> tweaking the title is a total bikeshed
  66. # [14:29] <Philip> Tweaking the title isn't; arguing extensively about tweaking the title is
  67. # [14:29] <Lachy> I know, but zcorpan has a point
  68. # [14:29] <hsivonen> agreed on both counts
  69. # [14:30] <hsivonen> so if we prepend "(X)" can we also drop the space? :-)
  70. # [14:31] <Philip> We'd have to have a new survey to agree on the new name
  71. # [14:31] <hsivonen> right: bikeshed
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  74. # [14:37] <hsivonen> the last few lines of cnn.com front page are interesting
  75. # [14:38] <hsivonen> they have a <style> in <noscript> at the end of the page
  76. # [14:38] <hsivonen> works wonders on JS disabled incremental rendering, I assume
  77. # [14:40] <zcorpan> <script language="JavaScript"><!--
  78. # [14:40] <zcorpan> if(navigator.appVersion.indexOf('MSIE')>=0)document.write(unescape('%3C')+'\!-'+'-')
  79. # [14:40] <zcorpan> //--></script>
  80. # [14:41] <zcorpan> does some version of ie load images in <noscript>s? or why would they include that script?
  81. # [14:41] <hsivonen> Philip: suppose there was an app for inspecting a list of top sites for spec conformance, what should it output?
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  83. # [14:44] <hsivonen> (it shouldn't be too hard to modify the current whattf.org unit test driver into a single-threaded app that validated a list of HTTP resources sequentially and printed something out)
  84. # [14:45] <hsivonen> now that the div content model is more permissive, my bet is that the top error will be:
  85. # [14:45] <hsivonen> Bad value content-type for attribute http-equiv on element meta.
  86. # [14:45] <hsivonen> and
  87. # [14:45] <hsivonen> Attribute language not allowed on element script at this point.
  88. # [14:46] <zcorpan> duplicate id
  89. # [14:46] <zcorpan> bogus &
  90. # [14:47] <hsivonen> oh yeah, bogus & will be common
  91. # [14:47] <jgraham> hsivonen: Presumably it should print (at least) the number/fraction of pages with one or more of each error and the median number per page of each error
  92. # [14:47] <hsivonen> I think we should continue to treat bogus & as an error, though
  93. # [14:47] <zcorpan> agree
  94. # [14:47] <jgraham> s/number/number per page/
  95. # [14:48] <zcorpan> (dup id, too)
  96. # [14:48] <jgraham> (that's the final occurence of "number")
  97. # [14:48] <jgraham> No, wait, I'm not making any sense
  98. # [14:48] <jgraham> sigh
  99. # [14:50] <hsivonen> I wonder if tallying tokenizer/tree builder/validator errors separately were worthwhile
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  101. # [15:00] <zcorpan> when taking html input in a webapp (e.g. blog comments), it would be reasonable to silently allow tokenizer/tree builder errors (just make it correct with html5lib) but then reject validation errors
  102. # [15:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I agree. I meant the case of surveying top sites, though
  103. # [15:05] <zcorpan> ok
  104. # [15:09] <hsivonen> December content model changes now deployed at Validator.nu except for the <style scoped> issues I raised on list
  105. # [15:09] <hsivonen> (still in time considering my "later this week" assessment earliel :-)
  106. # [15:10] <hsivonen> earlier
  107. # [15:10] <zcorpan> hsivonen: nice!
  108. # [15:18] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like I broke SVG integration in the process...
  109. # [15:19] <shepazu> hsivonen: not nice!
  110. # [15:24] <hsivonen> shepazu: SVG integration now restored
  111. # [15:24] <shepazu> hsivonen: re-nice!
  112. # [15:30] <zcorpan> hsivonen: s/you code/your code/ http://hsivonen.iki.fi/producing-xml/#dontprint
  113. # [15:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. fixed.
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  128. # [20:11] <Philip> hsivonen: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/producing-xml/ says "... a low surrogate (another 16-bit code unit." and misses the ")"
  129. # [20:15] <hsivonen> Philip: thanks. fixed
  130. # [20:22] <gsnedders> isn't it lower surrogate anyway?
  131. # [20:23] <hsivonen> gsnedders: they are high and low--not higher and lower
  132. # [20:23] * gsnedders tries to have as little to do with Unicode as possible
  133. # [20:23] <gsnedders> but still too much :)
  134. # [20:25] <gsnedders> And what I have to do with Unicode is more to do with implementation details, not with what things are called.
  135. # [20:31] <Hixie> a subtitle is a great idea
  136. # [20:31] <Hixie> can someone find me a w3c spec that has a subtitle so i can copy its markup?
  137. # [20:32] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/ has what looks like a subtitle
  138. # [20:32] <Hixie> "HTML5" "A vocabulary for text/html and XHTML"
  139. # [20:32] <Hixie> sweet
  140. # [20:32] <Hixie> thanks
  141. # [20:34] <Hixie> now i just need a good subtitle
  142. # [20:34] <Hixie> "Kicking HTML and XHTML kicking and screaming into the 21st century"
  143. # [20:34] <Hixie> er
  144. # [20:35] <Hixie> "Dragging HTML and XHTML kicking and screaming into the 21st century"
  145. # [20:37] * Philip fails to think of a way to insert a Famous Five reference
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  147. # [21:03] <Lachy> Hixie, "A Vocabulary for HTML and XHTML" would be a good subtitle
  148. # [21:03] <Lachy> or maybe "A Vocabulary for (X)HTML"
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  150. # [21:08] <hsivonen> hrm. I'm faced with the dilemma of sorting a character encoding menu...
  151. # [21:10] <Philip> Sort it adaptively by frequency of use
  152. # [21:11] <hsivonen> I can't figure out any particular logic in the charset menus of the W3C Validator and Validome
  153. # [21:11] <hsivonen> Philip: everyone hated the rearranging MS Office menus
  154. # [21:11] <hsivonen> hmm. how about I put UTF-8 at the top. then UTF-16 has to be second
  155. # [21:12] <hsivonen> then I reverse sort alphabetically
  156. # [21:12] <Philip> Sort it non-adaptively by frequency of use?
  157. # [21:13] <Philip> Alphabetic is probably bad for ISO-8859-n vs ISO-8859-nn
  158. # [21:13] <hsivonen> I could resort those numerically non-reverse
  159. # [21:13] <Philip> How many items will be in the list?
  160. # [21:14] <hsivonen> 34
  161. # [21:14] <hsivonen> (I'm removing US-ASCII, because it is useless)
  162. # [21:14] <hsivonen> OK. Here's what I'll do
  163. # [21:15] <hsivonen> I group them by family and sort the families Unicode, Windows, ISO, national
  164. # [21:15] <Philip> (Why is it useless? It doesn't sound unreasonable for someone to want to check that a document doesn't contain any funny characters at all)
  165. # [21:15] <Lachy> hsivonen, you could place the most common at the top (UTF-8, Win 1252, ISO-8859-1), then list all the remaining ones below
  166. # [21:16] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes, that would be a possibility. However the Unicode, Windows, ISO, national looks pretty coherent
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  168. # [21:30] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if Validator.nu has the charset name right with ISO logical Hebrew...
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  170. # [21:40] <hsivonen> the menu is now here: http://about.validator.nu/file-temp/
  171. # [21:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: there's now support for character encoding override
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  173. # [21:45] <Lachy> hsivonen, why are ISO-8859-10, -11, -12 and -14 missing?
  174. # [21:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: they either aren't registered with the IANA or Sun doesn't ship decoders
  175. # [21:48] <Lachy> 10 and 14 are listed here http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets 11 and 12 are missin
  176. # [21:51] <hsivonen> Lachy: 10 is Nordic and pointless. 11 is Thai and is has a different IANA name (in the menu)
  177. # [21:52] <hsivonen> Lachy: 12 is non-existent
  178. # [21:52] <hsivonen> Lachy: 14 is most likely pointless
  179. # [21:53] <hsivonen> whereby pointless I mean that the standard offers too little benefit over another existing ISO-8859 family encoding and/or the encoding was standardized so late that UTF-8 makes more sense
  180. # [21:53] <hsivonen> if fact, by that definition, -15 is pointless, too
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  184. # [23:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks. though i can't seem to validate a file from that UI
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  187. # [23:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks. though i can't seem to validate a file from that UI
  188. # [23:34] <zcorpan> i wonder why validator.w3.org gets encoding information and validator.nu doesn't when validating from the context menu in opera
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The end :)