/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-01-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 17 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  4. # [00:01] * shepazu attended an impeachment debate last night... the Republican held that Bush should be impeached, and we need to do it now, and the Democrat said that bush should be impeached, but that it wasn't practical in this political climate
  5. # [00:02] * jgraham is growing to dislike colgroup
  6. # [00:03] <jgraham> Not as much as I dislike Bush you understand...
  7. # [00:04] <Lachy> Hixie, are the test cases allowed to use additional support files?
  8. # [00:04] <Hixie> sure
  9. # [00:05] <Hixie> but in practice it's very difficult to use them without breaking the test rules because the tests are synchronous
  10. # [00:05] <Hixie> (though if you have any good test ideas i would make exceptions)
  11. # [00:05] <Lachy> I'm looking for bugs at the moment
  12. # [00:06] <Lachy> but if you have any good bug ideas, you could save me the time and I can get started on the test
  13. # [00:08] <Lachy> Hixie, can you zip up a copy of the current test, including all support files incl .htaccess if there are special server settings, so I can run the test on my own server more easily?
  14. # [00:08] <Hixie> if i had any good ideas, they'd be in the test already
  15. # [00:09] <Lachy> I need to be able to make modifications to it and also start splitting it up into to individual tests
  16. # [00:09] <Hixie> sure, hold on
  17. # [00:10] <Hixie> http://hixie.ch/tests/evil/acid/003/wip.tar.gz
  18. # [00:13] <Lachy> thanks
  19. # [00:14] <Lachy> hmm. I thought the .htaccess was missing, till I realised that the silly Mac doesn't show hidden files in the finder and there's no way to turn it on on a per file/directory basis
  20. # [00:22] <Philip> Might it be possible to test something about how WebKit does PNG gamma totally unlike other browsers?
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  22. # [00:24] <Philip> (e.g. the left column of http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pngsuite.html "Images with different gamma chunks")
  23. # [00:24] <Hixie> if you can do it without rendering anything...
  24. # [00:24] <Philip> You have lots of other tests that depend on rendering already :-)
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  26. # [00:26] <Hixie> exactly
  27. # [00:26] <Hixie> the 16 tests are JS tests though
  28. # [00:26] <Hixie> the 16 tests i'm trying to fill, i mean
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  31. # [00:35] <Lachy> the convenience of having apache built it to my macbook is awesome for working with acid3
  32. # [00:41] <Hixie> heh
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  35. # [00:55] <Lachy> Hixie, have you determined when acid3 will be released yet?
  36. # [00:55] <Lachy> or can you give an approximation?
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  41. # [01:29] * karl wonders if Lachy and jgraham are around?
  42. # [01:33] <Lachy> karl, yo
  43. # [01:34] <karl> Hi Lachy.
  44. # [01:34] <Lachy> hi
  45. # [01:35] <karl> I have seen a message about direction of arrows. Bi-directional arrows seem to be fine at first, then I wondered if it would not add confusion. What about no arrows, just lines ?
  46. # [01:35] * karl is taking about the graphics on the QA blog post
  47. # [01:35] <karl> sorry for the lack of context
  48. # [01:35] <Lachy> yeah, lines would be better.
  49. # [01:35] <karl> ok I'll do that
  50. # [01:35] <karl> thanks for the comment
  51. # [01:35] <Lachy> didn't I say that in my original comment
  52. # [01:36] <Hixie> Lachy: when it's ready
  53. # [01:37] <Hixie> Lachy: acid3 will be ready when i have enough tests to fill in the remaining 16 subtests
  54. # [01:37] <Lachy> what about writing an associated guide for it?
  55. # [01:38] <Lachy> is someone working on something like that? There was one for acid 2
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  57. # [01:38] <Dashiva> Going by acid2, we definitely need a "Behavior <x> is not a bug or failure of the test"
  58. # [01:39] <Hixie> Lachy: we're accepting volunteers if anyone wants to do something like that; failing that, i'll get around to it after i'm done with acid3 itself.
  59. # [01:39] <karl> arrows removed. Thanks.
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  61. # [01:39] <Lachy> I'm not sure if I have the time to do the whole thing, but I may be able to write part of it
  62. # [01:40] <Hixie> i'd wait til the test is done
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  90. # [08:49] <hsivonen> hmm. there were a couple of surprise non-responders, but the requirements for the question to carry seem to have been met
  91. # [08:51] <mjs> what surprises?
  92. # [08:51] <mjs> oh, I forgot that it ends today
  93. # [08:52] <mjs> it does look like it carried
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  95. # [08:54] <shepazu> yes, and MS voted yes
  96. # [08:54] <mjs> 74-6-8
  97. # [08:54] <mjs> no, wait, that's the diffs
  98. # [08:55] <mjs> 78-7-3
  99. # [08:57] <mjs> I guess Google not voting is the surprising one
  100. # [08:57] <mjs> (maybe Hixie and Raman couldn't agree)
  101. # [09:06] <laplink> Hmm. You know the group is pretty big when the list of non-responders has 368 entries. :-)
  102. # [09:09] <hsivonen> mjs: Google and DI
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  106. # [10:25] <Hixie> mjs: i couldn't be bothered to vote for the 3rd time. i'm tired of voting "yes" to the same question over and over again.
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  108. # [10:27] <mjs> Hixie: you could have voted "no" to balance Microsoft's change of heart
  109. # [10:27] <Hixie> i used the time i would have wasted voting to edit the spec instead
  110. # [10:27] <Hixie> i figured my opinion would be well known by now
  111. # [10:28] <mjs> well anyway
  112. # [10:28] <mjs> it seems that we can now actually publish
  113. # [10:28] <Hixie> i'm amused the HTML Writers Guild abstained
  114. # [10:30] <hsivonen> is their reason to abstain known?
  115. # [10:33] <Hixie> i'm amused with all the people saying that it must be made clear that the spec doesn't imply agreement
  116. # [10:33] <Hixie> given how strongly the status section says that
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  119. # [10:42] <laplink> Rather than amusement, perhaps it would be productive to take it as an indication that the relevant parties have strong reservations about the spec as it stands.
  120. # [10:47] <mjs> so will the HTML5 draft announcement make more of a splash than this week's SPARQL and SMIL announcements?
  121. # [10:47] <mjs> (do all w3c specs sound like toothpaste brands?)
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  123. # [10:50] <hsivonen> hmm. I can't find email from Hixie about the conformance of unlabeled US-ASCII
  124. # [10:50] <hsivonen> I wonder if that one only has an IRC record.
  125. # [10:50] * hsivonen emails the list
  126. # [10:51] <Hixie> laplink: everyone (including me) has strong reservations about the spec as it stands
  127. # [10:51] <Hixie> laplink: it's year from being complete
  128. # [10:51] <Hixie> er
  129. # [10:51] <Hixie> years
  130. # [10:52] <Hixie> i'm just amused because some people seem to think that other people think the spec is done, when we're talking about a FPWD on a timetable that is years away from LC, let alone CR
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  134. # [11:11] <hsivonen> hmm. instead of emailing, I think I'm going to tweak errors and warnings in the v.nu parser instead
  135. # [11:15] <Hixie> what was the question?
  136. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: I would have suggested making unlabeled docts non-conforming even when actually ASCII-only
  137. # [11:16] <Hixie> ah
  138. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: but then I figured it may be better to only issue a warning in that cas
  139. # [11:16] <hsivonen> e
  140. # [11:17] <Hixie> ah
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  143. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> What's the rationale for the "If the charset attribute is specified, the element must be the first element in the head element of the file." requirement in the current spec?
  144. # [11:44] <Dashiva> Because if you change charset, it can change the meaning of a previous element
  145. # [11:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: to make the parser restart as early as possible
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  148. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> So what do current parsers do for instances where the meta@charset or meta@http-equiv=Content-Type is not the first element in the head?
  149. # [11:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: they restart later
  150. # [11:49] <Dashiva> Unless the charset claims to be utf-16
  151. # [11:49] <Dashiva> (but that's unrelated)
  152. # [11:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: must be first is a doc conformance req
  153. # [11:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so docs that don't conform still work but give worse browser performance
  154. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> OK
  155. # [11:50] <hsivonen> Dashiva: don't they still restart but as UTF-8?
  156. # [11:52] <Dashiva> Might be, I don't have perfect information available
  157. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> I think that the requirement to have it be the first element in the head is not going to be intuitive to users so conformance checkers should ideally have an explicit message making it clear that it needs to be.
  158. # [11:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah
  159. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - validator.nu currently doesn't seem to produce a useful error message for the case if it's not the first element in the head
  160. # [11:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you try with charset='' or the HTML4 syntax?
  161. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> with charset=''
  162. # [11:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
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  166. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - for validator.nu/?out=text output for valid documents, I wonder whether it shouldn't better emit nothing at all rather than "The document is valid HTML5..."
  167. # [12:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: out=text is supposed to be human-readable
  168. # [12:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: for emacs parsing, I want to have out=gnu
  169. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> ah
  170. # [12:12] <hsivonen> but the gnu spec is bad
  171. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> yeah, it is
  172. # [12:12] <hsivonen> I suppose I could just bite the bullet and hard-code "-" as the file name to sidestep the issue of putting URIs in the gnu format
  173. # [12:13] <Dashiva> gnum - gnu umproved
  174. # [12:13] <hsivonen> and to use the v.nu style of column counting instead of what gnu specifies
  175. # [12:14] <hsivonen> most of the time people wouldn't notice...
  176. # [12:14] <hsivonen> but then there are always those edge cases...
  177. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> I wonder what other apps do now when they need to include URIs in gnu-style error messages and still want they to be parse-able
  178. # [12:15] <hsivonen> we need GNU error format 5
  179. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> heh
  180. # [12:16] <hsivonen> hmm. validating the html5 spec even locally is very, very slow
  181. # [12:17] <hsivonen> I wonder if my show source impl is bad or whether I've changed something in the schematron schema that makes the xslt impl go crazy
  182. # [12:17] <hsivonen> or if it is just that Xalan is much much slower than Saxon
  183. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I think Xalan is significantly slower than Saxon
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  186. # [12:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I suppose going back to Saxon for non-Debian installations would make sense then if Saxon were modified to support column numbers in addition to line numbers
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  188. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah, I think that would be good
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  190. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - but are you talking about Saxon 6 or later Saxon (8 or 9)?
  191. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> Saxon 6 is in right in libs in Debian
  192. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> not in non-free
  193. # [12:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: 6. using 8 would also involve getting rid of the XSLT 1.0 warning
  194. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> OK
  195. # [12:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hmm. that seems like a violation of Debian's own policy...
  196. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> dunno. There's even a GCJ version of Saxon packaged for Debian
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  198. # [12:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: interesting given the whole Debian vs. pre-tri-license Mozilla thing
  199. # [12:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and the debial-legal stance of CDDL
  200. # [12:35] <hsivonen> I'd guess Saxon just flew under the debia-legal radar, but I don't know.
  201. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> yeah, me neither
  202. # [12:35] <hsivonen> hmm. typoed debian twice...
  203. # [12:38] <anne> publication in five days, nice
  204. # [12:39] * Philip wonders how confusingly the publication will be reported by news sources
  205. # [12:40] <Dashiva> At least one will say the spec has been published, in a way that suggests it's complete
  206. # [12:40] <hsivonen> the perf problem definitely is the Schematron part--not show source...
  207. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - source for HTML5 spec is still only around 2MB?
  208. # [12:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
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  213. # [13:10] <hsivonen> Philip: Re: list of elements and attributes: I don't have a list. I could modify my spec scraper to dump its datastructures with relative ease, though
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  215. # [13:18] <Philip> hsivonen: Okay - it'd probably be quicker for me to just update my spec scraper, since it's already set up to do comparisons between element/attribute lists
  216. # [13:22] <mjs> it's exciting that we are on track for publication
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  245. # [17:48] * Philip guesses he needs to go over all his canvas tests again and work out which ones are now incorrect
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  247. # [17:53] * Philip wonders when anything is going to happen on public-html-testsuite
  248. # [18:01] <anne> whenever someone feels like it
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  259. # [18:18] <oedipus> does anyone know if we are having the "alternate" meeting at 7pm boston time?
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  262. # [18:19] <Philip> oedipus: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0148.html
  263. # [18:20] <oedipus> philip, thanks -- i made the mistake of checking the announcement list for an agenda announcement!
  264. # [18:20] <anne> hah
  265. # [18:21] <oedipus> anne, i know you are swamped with other responsibilities, but we need to get our heads together and try and get some momentum with the joint forms task force
  266. # [18:21] <oedipus> did you hear yahoo's announcement that they are transitioning to XForms?
  267. # [18:22] <anne> it's basically up to the XForms guys at this point to come up with a proposal I believe
  268. # [18:22] <oedipus> ok, i'll bother mark and company...
  269. # [18:23] <anne> I heard about the Y! Mobile platform, yes
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  272. # [18:24] <anne> see http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/2008/01/10/to-xforms-or-not-to-xforms/ about that for instance
  273. # [18:24] <oedipus> anne,thanks for the pointer
  274. # [18:25] <anne> he says "Y! XForms" is like WML was to XHTML
  275. # [18:25] <oedipus> ugh...
  276. # [18:26] <anne> it's also walled garden content so not that interesting imo
  277. # [18:27] <oedipus> a lot of Xwhatever technology is contained in walled gardens and then stuffed down the pipeline as text/html
  278. # [18:28] <zcorpan> you could say that again :)
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  280. # [18:28] <oedipus> i would if my IRC buffer wasn't screwed up!
  281. # [18:28] <zcorpan> lol
  282. # [18:29] <oedipus> by the way, zcorpan, thanks for participating in the ARIA editors' work last week -- we may get resolution yet! <wink>
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  287. # [18:37] <zcorpan> oedipus: oh, no problem :)
  288. # [18:38] <oedipus> zcorpan, it is appreciated -- PF doesn't want to squander the opportunity for implementation, since we have implementor buy-in
  289. # [18:38] <zcorpan> makes sense
  290. # [18:39] <oedipus> especially since ARIA was needed not yesterday, but at least 3-5 years ago!
  291. # [18:39] <zcorpan> html5 too...
  292. # [18:39] <oedipus> but of course! <smile>
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  341. # [22:47] <Silenius> hello all
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  343. # [22:47] <Silenius> to where can i send my reviews of the specification?
  344. # [22:48] <Silenius> to the public-html mailing list?
  345. # [22:49] <Hixie> public-html@w3.org, public-html-comments@w3.org, whatwg@whatwg.org, or directly to me at ian@hixie.ch
  346. # [22:49] <Hixie> any of those will work
  347. # [22:49] <Hixie> the first and third reqwuire you to subscribe first, i believe
  348. # [22:49] <Silenius> k thanks
  349. # [22:50] <Silenius> yes i'm aware
  350. # [22:54] <Philip> The first doesn't require you to subscribe
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  364. # [23:19] <anne_mibbit> interesting
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  366. # [23:24] <Hixie> MikeSmith: let me know when you get the ok to publish so i can update the spec for publication
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The end :)