/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-01-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 22 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:06] <anne> yes
  4. # [00:06] <anne> and html5-diff
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  19. # [03:15] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - yup
  20. # [03:17] <Hixie> ok pubrules time
  21. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie - yep
  22. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> please
  23. # [03:21] <Hixie> oops, i have outstanding changes
  24. # [03:21] <Hixie> better commit those first
  25. # [03:24] * mjs_ wonders if there is a fancy press release prepared
  26. # [03:24] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  27. # [03:25] <Hixie> i hope not, but i assume yes
  28. # [03:39] <Hixie> MikeSmith: so the references section is incomplete, and this is making the link checker claim that there's a bazillion broken fragment links
  29. # [03:39] <Hixie> MikeSmith: is the pubteam going to be annoying about this?
  30. # [03:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/
  31. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie - No, I don't think so, not if I make it clear that we aware of it
  32. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> But I guess it's also a case of readers of the doc being annoyed about it
  33. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> Seems like something to note in the SOTD
  34. # [03:43] <Hixie> the references section says "This section will be written in a future draft."
  35. # [03:43] <Hixie> (the SOTD section is long enough by this point that i doubt anyone would read anything else we added to it)
  36. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> heh
  37. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> Yeah, I guess so
  38. # [03:44] <Hixie> ok the draft is committed and as far as i know follows all applicable rules except for the aforementioned broken internal links
  39. # [03:44] <Hixie> it's dated for the 22nd
  40. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> OK, taking a look now
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  43. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I think a reasonable solution is to update the links in the copy that goes into /TR to all point for now to the same fragment ID, and for that ID to be #references
  44. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> I will make that change when I add the static copy in /TR
  45. # [04:06] <Hixie> ok
  46. # [04:06] <Hixie> that should be relatively easy
  47. # [04:06] <Hixie> s/"#refs[^"]+"/"#references"/g
  48. # [04:06] <Hixie> anything else need chanigng?
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  51. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie - nothing else I see right now
  52. # [04:10] <Hixie> k
  53. # [04:10] <Hixie> let me know if you do need changes
  54. # [04:10] <Hixie> or if you want me to make the refs change
  55. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie - if you want to go ahead and make that refs change now, that would be great
  56. # [04:16] <Hixie> k
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  59. # [04:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: k, checked in
  60. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> thanks, taking a look now
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  63. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I see the checker is flagging the string "http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/ipr-notic" in the example in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#header
  64. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> line 8573
  65. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> not technically an error, but adding the "e" will make it shut up
  66. # [05:06] <Hixie> the link checker?
  67. # [05:06] <Hixie> which checker?
  68. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> pubrules checker
  69. # [05:09] <Hixie> where?
  70. # [05:09] <Hixie> i don't see anything
  71. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> in pubrules output, section "7. Document Body"
  72. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> item 4
  73. # [05:10] <Hixie> namespaces?
  74. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  75. # [05:11] <Hixie> says "OK The Namespaces Checker was used for this test." for me
  76. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> It's not even flagging http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ in your output?
  77. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> it should be, since they're not there yet
  78. # [05:12] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/pubrules-conformance-report.html
  79. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> wacky
  80. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> dunno why it's not reporting http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/ to you
  81. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> it should be flagging those at least, as far as I can see
  82. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie - anyway, I don't see any real problems
  83. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> I think we're good to go
  84. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> I see the "Required boilerplate text not found" stuff as usual
  85. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> but I've never been able to prevent the pubrules checker from flagging that part even if it's exactly word-for-word matching the recommended text
  86. # [05:44] <Hixie> heh
  87. # [05:44] <Hixie> maybe the namespace checker is dependent of the domain of the page
  88. # [05:45] <Hixie> since i ran the checker locally
  89. # [05:45] <Hixie> why would it report http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/?
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  92. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I guess because it check the status code on those, and they come back 404
  93. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> because nothing there
  94. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> yet
  95. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> I think what it does is grep through the whole doc to for anything that matches an http URI
  96. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> and then checks the status code to see if there's actually anything at the location
  97. # [05:56] <Hixie> i thought that was what hte link checker did
  98. # [05:56] <Hixie> the link checker certainly does flag a bunch of things
  99. # [05:56] <Hixie> including those two URIs
  100. # [05:56] <Hixie> though not the IPR one you mentioned earlier
  101. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie - right, because that one's not a hyperlink
  102. # [05:57] <Hixie> iirc i changed that IPR uri to have its "e" taken off so that the other part of hte pubrules checker wouldn't flag that example as having the wrong IPR notice
  103. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> I guess the pubrules checker is intended to just be checking namespace URIs
  104. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie - thanks for changing that
  105. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> Oh, sorry, re-reading what you just said
  106. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> heh
  107. # [05:58] <Hixie> oh hey, if i run the nschecker directly, it does complain about those
  108. # [05:58] <Hixie> weird
  109. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> I see what you're saying about the IPR URI
  110. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> so let's just leave that one as-is
  111. # [06:00] <Hixie> i k
  112. # [06:00] <Hixie> er
  113. # [06:00] <Hixie> "ok"
  114. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie - you said link checker is flagging a bunch of things... The only broken links the link checker is flagging for me are that not-yet-there /TR ones
  115. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> and then some 302's
  116. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> but nothing else
  117. # [06:03] <Hixie> that was a bunch :-)
  118. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> and robot exclusion for https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=180157&action=view
  119. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> OK, so we're fine as far as links too
  120. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> So I think we really are good to go and I can copy it over to http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/ and follow up on the publication request
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  122. # [06:26] <Hixie> MikeSmith: k
  123. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> Hixie - how much longer will you still be online today?
  124. # [06:30] <Hixie> dunno
  125. # [06:33] <MikeSmith> OK, anyway, was just wondering if how long you'd be available if I happen to find any problems with the draft later. But I don't anticipate finding any, so no worries
  126. # [06:33] <MikeSmith> we publish at 11am US/East
  127. # [06:59] <Hixie> 9am PDT?
  128. # [07:00] <Hixie> i won't be awake around then :-)
  129. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie - yeah, I figured you wouldn't be :)
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  133. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/ie8-versioning-mechanism
  134. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=8;FF=3;OtherUA=4" />
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  137. # [08:17] <mjs> I think the odds of non-IE browsers doing anything based on that extension are pretty low
  138. # [08:20] <mjs> it's unfortunate that there's no "always the most standards compliant mode available" switch
  139. # [08:20] <mjs> in effect there is no standards mode, only more quirks modes
  140. # [08:22] <mjs> oh no, wait, there is a latest version switch
  141. # [08:22] <mjs> "IE=edge"
  142. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  143. # [08:23] <mjs> so that's the real standards mode
  144. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> though "strongly discouraged"
  145. # [08:24] <mjs> though presumably in IE8 it will match IE8 quirks mode
  146. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> the phrase "...will cause a site to target the latest IE browser versions as they release" is kind of encouraging
  147. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> and that "strongly discouraged" bit too
  148. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> because it seems to imply they possibly have plans to do more frequent releases
  149. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> the Mozilla-Webkit-Opera model of weekly or nightly builds
  150. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> or at least something closer to that than their current beta/release model
  151. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> or maybe I'm just reading too much into it
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  153. # [08:33] <mjs> I think you are reading too much into it
  154. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> I guess so
  155. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> mjs - btw and just fyi, in looking at the History section of the KHTML page at Wikipedia a while back, I noticed it didn't really provide a whole lot of useful information, so I some stuff to it
  156. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHTML#History
  157. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> most of it just copped from the video presentation that Lars Knoll and George Staikos did at Yahoo
  158. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> I'm not really very qualified to be trying to document that history
  159. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> but nobody else had taken time to update it there, so I figured I might as well give it a try
  160. # [08:45] <mjs> the comment about WebKit there is a wee bit unfriendly sounding
  161. # [08:46] <mjs> "Apple now publishes the source code for their fork of the KHTML engine, called WebKit, as required by the LGPL."
  162. # [08:46] <mjs> that makes it sound like Apple is doing the bare minimum required by the liecense
  163. # [08:46] <mjs> (to my ear anyway)
  164. # [08:46] <mjs> still, good to fill it in
  165. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> yeah, I felt the same way reading that part
  166. # [08:47] <mjs> I guess the end of that section sounds more positive
  167. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> I didn't touch that section except to tweak the wording a bit to make it less clunky
  168. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> yeah, well, I think that section could definitely use some work still
  169. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> and a bit more balance
  170. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> the only things I changed there were this:
  171. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=KHTML&diff=185840509&oldid=185839910
  172. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> only really substantive thing was that I added mention of KJS there
  173. # [09:02] <hsivonen> gotta remember to adjust the wikitruthiness about the status of HTML 5 after we publish
  174. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> jah
  175. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - in his article, Aaron Gustafson cites the following:
  176. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> http://web.archive.org/web/20030212115103/http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/list-name.mbox/123/1998/7/0/1037920/
  177. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> "Back in 1998, Todd Fahrner came up with a toggle that would allow a browser to offer two rendering modes: one for developers wishing to follow standards... This concept was first implemented in IE5/Mac two years later"
  178. # [09:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah. might be good to put on the wiki
  179. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> yeah, I'll get it in
  180. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> would like to eventually also get the date when IE for Mac added doctype switching
  181. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> I guess I can poke around and see if I find anything
  182. # [09:11] <mjs> "Use NGLayout when rendering documents authored in either HTML 4.0 Strict or XML
  183. # [09:11] <mjs> (this will include HTML 5.0)"
  184. # [09:11] <mjs> html5 in strict mode, even in 1998!
  185. # [09:11] <mjs> :-p
  186. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> heh
  187. # [09:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: wikipedia says March 27 2000 was the release date of Mac IE 5.0
  188. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK, that makes sense
  189. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> was wondering if it were added in 5.something
  190. # [09:13] <hsivonen> I'm pretty sure it was in 5.0
  191. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> but Aaron mentions "two years later"
  192. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> OK
  193. # [09:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1312 for moz
  194. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> yeah, that I one I came across already, linked to from one of your pages I think
  195. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> will add that too
  196. # [09:15] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42525
  197. # [09:15] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153032
  198. # [09:16] <hsivonen> those are notable things shaping the eventual form of sniffing
  199. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK, I'll get some stuff added right now, then maybe you can review if/when you have time
  200. # [09:40] * MikeSmith finds http://www.alistapart.com/stories/ie5mac/
  201. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> Zeldman from March 2000
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  206. # [10:34] <anne> morning
  207. # [10:34] <anne> guess I'm up for the pubrules game now? :)
  208. # [10:38] <anne> MikeSmith, done
  209. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> anne - thanks, taking a look now
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  215. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> anne - pubrules doesn't seem to be recognizing it as a FPWD
  216. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> so I'm getting some errors
  217. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> e.g., it's tell me there is not Previous Version link
  218. # [10:57] <anne> you'd think that a FPWD doesn't have that :-)
  219. # [10:57] <anne> I can add <dt>Previous Version:<dd>none though
  220. # [10:57] <anne> would that help?
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  222. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> anne - no, we don't want to do that
  223. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> give me a few minutes to look at it and try to figure out why it's not catching it
  224. # [11:00] <anne> other drafts do have something like that, e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/NOTE-access-control-20050613/
  225. # [11:00] <anne> actually, some others don't, e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20060405/
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  227. # [11:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Validator.nu now supports &out=gnu
  228. # [11:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: also, there's &level=error, which suppresses info and warning, so you can simply count output lines and decide that zero lines is ok
  229. # [11:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: documentation to follow
  230. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - sweet. thanks
  231. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> btw, I added stuff to http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/history
  232. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> search for "switching"
  233. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> also this:
  234. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DoctypeSwitching
  235. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> anne - I'm still not seeing what pubrules thinks is wrong
  236. # [11:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks good. thanks.
  237. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> anne - are you seeing the same errors from teh pubrules checker?
  238. # [11:11] <anne> HTML 5.0 :)
  239. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - feel free to make any changes or additions there if you want
  240. # [11:12] <anne> I never run the pubrules checker because I trust in Bert's script to do the right thing
  241. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> ah
  242. # [11:12] * anne tries to find it now
  243. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> anne - well do me a big favor and try it so you can see what I'm talking about
  244. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules
  245. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> running http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ through that, I don't get those same error messages
  246. # [11:14] <anne> I see it
  247. # [11:14] <anne> I think
  248. # [11:15] <anne> nope :(
  249. # [11:15] <anne> I thought "latest draft:" -> "latest version" would do it
  250. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> anne - HTML5 draft has "Latest Published Version:" and "Latest Editor's Draft:"
  251. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> so I don't think it cares much about that text
  252. # [11:19] <anne> should I include a pointer to the latest editor's draft here too?
  253. # [11:19] <anne> btw, I fixed it now
  254. # [11:19] <anne> it wanted an indication that this is the first public working draft
  255. # [11:19] <anne> i fixed that in the sotd
  256. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> OK
  257. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> I don't think we need a pointer to the editor's draft
  258. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> for this doc
  259. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> because it's not changing often
  260. # [11:21] <anne> ok
  261. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> main reason for having it the HTML5 draft is just because it is changing weekly
  262. # [11:22] <anne> oh, btw, the style sheet errors are actually an error in the CSS validator
  263. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> anne - yeah, I remember we had that problem before
  264. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> and btw, the cause of the problem was my fault
  265. # [11:24] <anne> :)
  266. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> I think you actually had "First Public Working Draft" previously
  267. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> before that change I sent you
  268. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> sorry
  269. # [11:25] <anne> aah
  270. # [11:25] <anne> oh well
  271. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> anyway, it looks fine now
  272. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> I get that final publication request sent in a few minutes
  273. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> then we just wait for folks to get up on the east coast
  274. # [11:30] <hsivonen> will the FPWD have PDFs run through Hixie's pipeline but with the W3C CSS?
  275. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - nope
  276. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> the W3C copies don't have links to PDF versions
  277. # [11:31] <hsivonen> ok
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  279. # [12:19] <anne> this press release will cost the W3C so much bandwidth
  280. # [12:19] <anne> HTML5 is roughly 2MiB now...
  281. # [12:37] <Philip> Is the spec included in the press release email?
  282. # [12:37] <anne> i'm just thinking about all the hits it will get from all over the world
  283. # [12:38] <Philip> Ah
  284. # [12:38] <Philip> Hopefully they have compression...
  285. # [12:39] <Philip> Hmm, looks like they don't
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  290. # [14:57] <anne> MikeSmith, yt?
  291. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> anne - here now
  292. # [15:16] <anne> MikeSmith, will you deal with the issue?
  293. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> which issue would that be?
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  297. # [17:01] <DanC> whee!
  298. # [17:01] <DanC> Your documents has been published under http://www.w3.org/TR/
  299. # [17:01] <DanC> HTML 5
  300. # [17:01] <DanC> A vocabulary and associated APIs for HTML and XHTML
  301. # [17:01] <DanC> W3C Working Draft 22 January 2008
  302. # [17:01] <DanC> This Version:
  303. # [17:01] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/
  304. # [17:01] <DanC> Latest Published Version:
  305. # [17:01] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
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  307. # [17:05] <anne> nice nice
  308. # [17:09] <hsivonen> DanC, MikeSmith: thank you
  309. # [17:10] <anne> yeah, thanks!
  310. # [17:13] <DanC> likewise... thanks for all your work!
  311. # [17:13] * DanC expects the "differences from html 4" document to go live any time
  312. # [17:14] <Lachy> it's live now http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-diff-20080122/
  313. # [17:15] <anne> in my e-mail it said both were published and it seems both are
  314. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> To quote George Bush: "Mission accomplished." ... now all we need to do is distribute the Presidential Medals of Freedom (after purging all the Baathists from office and taking away the guns from the police), and we'll be on easy street...
  315. # [17:20] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  316. # [17:22] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item8 is missing a double-quote to end the “"I am glad ...” section
  317. # [17:22] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Ping timeout)
  318. # [17:23] * Philip wonders why http://www.w3.org/2008/02/html5-pressrelease is 2008/02
  319. # [17:24] * Parts: timbl (timbl@85.95.98.99)
  320. # [17:25] <anne> Philip, you can e-mail w3t-comm@w3.org with corrections
  321. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> I just pinged comm about that one
  322. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> but would be good to e-mail it also
  323. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> missing quote is fixec
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The end :)