/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-02-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Feb 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:14] <Dashiva> It seems they just don't want web applications in their HTML spec
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  9. # [00:29] <Lachy> Dashiva, indeed. it seems some people think ignoring existing pratices of using HTML for applications, and delegating web applications to the domain of proprietary technologies
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  13. # [00:56] <Hixie> the real question is can we address their feedback, either in the spec somehow, or by replying to their comments with something that would convince them of the need we perceive
  14. # [01:29] <Lachy> Hixie, it would be posslble to address a few of the issues, like explaining why the client side form validation features are essential, and reassuring him that no-one claims they are a substitue for server side validation
  15. # [01:31] <Lachy> I'm not sure how to address his concern about the relationship to proprietary technologies
  16. # [01:32] <Lachy> and responding to statements like this, which make no sense, is hard: "HTML 4 finally provided a good mechanism for dealing with issues like printing, and how to display content on devices that do not fit standard desktop monitor sizes. HTML 5 works hard to undo that progress."
  17. # [01:38] <Hixie> yeah
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  21. # [02:20] <timbl_> Hixie, Lachy, Dashiva: Noting the comments above, I'd suggest one option is listening to the person. If their comments seem illogical, then they are looking for a differnt perspecive. If you don't understand what they are saying, maybe listen better. A little dialog, maybe .
  22. # [02:21] <timbl_> It sounds as though the declarative aspects of HTML4+css are important to Justin J. Mayb h woul dlike to see all the API in a different spec. That is ho it has been for a long time.
  23. # [02:23] <Dashiva> timbl_: He does say in a comment that he doesn't want anything added to HTML4 (except possibly audio and video).
  24. # [02:24] <timbl_> I don't know what he means either by a lot of it, but I imagine he means something. yes, sometimes explaining why things are done in a certain way in the spec help,s but then when you don't understand the questioner , the explanation is unlikely to be understood.
  25. # [02:24] <timbl_> Dashiva, you mean in that post he does or elsewhere?
  26. # [02:24] <Dashiva> In the comments section of it
  27. # [02:25] <Dashiva> The fifth from the top, or so
  28. # [02:26] <timbl_> Ah: "To try to add on to HTML to make it into a GUI definition system can only lead to disaster"
  29. # [02:27] <timbl_> Maybe (a) he doesn't personally need any as calls it "UI".
  30. # [02:27] <timbl_> and (b) he find the spec cluttered by it
  31. # [02:27] <timbl_> The simplicity of the HTML as a document langauge is gobne, for those who just what a document language.
  32. # [02:27] <timbl_> Maybe he has other UI languages in mind.
  33. # [02:27] <timbl_> Could ask him
  34. # [02:28] <timbl_> But separating out a spec with no scripting at all might be an interesting excercise .. pity it can't be automated.
  35. # [02:28] <Dashiva> That's one of the main goals of the authoring guidelines, isn't it?
  36. # [02:29] <Dashiva> Remove all the UA text, remove implementation details, just show what is allowed and what it does
  37. # [02:29] <timbl_> Well, does it incldue events and API? Or just plain markup and CSS?
  38. # [02:30] <Dashiva> I'm not too involved, but from what I've seen on the list it seems to be markup-oriented
  39. # [02:30] <timbl_> Looking at the ToC it seems to be.
  40. # [02:31] <Dashiva> And since it's non-normative text, it should be easier to split and combine it for different needs without affecting the actual spec
  41. # [02:31] <timbl_> But you can imagine that if say you are into printing HTML, then you might react like JJ
  42. # [02:32] <timbl_> But the meta point is that when people complain and don't seem to make sense at first, it is worth find out where he coming from, how he uses HTML, whether there is a set is users with the same needs etc.
  43. # [02:33] <Dashiva> It seems Hixie made a comment recently... *read*
  44. # [02:34] <timbl_> comment on jj's blog?
  45. # [02:35] <timbl_> gtg
  46. # [02:35] <Dashiva> Although it just says techrepublic.com.com@...
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  49. # [03:35] <Lachy> The authoring guide which I'm drafting will most likely include introductory material for the APIs as well
  50. # [03:36] <Lachy> although, perhaps, I'd be open to the idea of a seperate guide dedicated to the scripting APIs
  51. # [03:37] <Hixie> the guy clearly was ok with APIs since he said he was ok with <audio> and <video> and those elements basically consist of just an extensive API
  52. # [03:37] <Hixie> anyway, as Dashiva pointed out, i tried to reply
  53. # [03:37] * Hixie is surprised that tim suggested listening to the guy, as if we weren't -- the html5 work is based entirely on listening to all feedback, far more than any other w3c project ever has been
  54. # [03:39] <Lachy> Hixie, I can't see any comment from you on the blog
  55. # [03:39] <Hixie> it's the one from "techrepublic.com.com@"
  56. # [03:39] <Hixie> (they cut off the domain part of my e-mail address)
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  59. # [03:41] <Dashiva> Lachy: Surely you can recognize Hixie's writing without a name ;)
  60. # [03:43] <Lachy> I must be reading the wrong comment, cause the one I clicked from techrepublic.com.com@ says "I havent read the entire HTML5 spec,...", and that can't be Hixie
  61. # [03:44] <gavin> there are two
  62. # [03:44] <gavin> hixie's is the second
  63. # [03:44] <Lachy> oh, I see
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  133. # [22:22] * Philip sees that target="new" is twice as common as target="_new"
  134. # [22:22] <Philip> for small values of "twice" that are more like "1.6 times"
  135. # [22:23] <gsnedders> Philip: working on Twice5 then?
  136. # [22:24] <Philip> That won't solve enough problems - we need a Maths5
  137. # [22:25] <gsnedders> Philip: only if we get there first, else we'll end up with Math5, which will mean we'll need to write English5
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The end :)