/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-02-07 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  6. # [00:49] * Topic is 'HTML 5 is published http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item8 ; preparing for telecon Thu 24 Jan 17:00Z http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
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  66. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - fwiw, Saxon 9 is now in Debian unstable (package libsaxonb-java)
  67. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> has a bunch of dependencies
  68. # [13:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks. good to know
  69. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> libbackport-util-concurrent-java libcommons-codec-java libdom4j-java libjaxen-java libjaxme-java libjdom1-java libxpp2-java libxpp3-java
  70. # [13:20] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder what util-concurrent is needed for
  71. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - no clues. I have no idea what it is even is
  72. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> [[
  73. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> This is a backport of the java.util.concurrent API, introduced in
  74. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> Java 5.0, to Java 1.4.
  75. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> ]]
  76. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> not a terrifically helpful description
  77. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> doesn't seem like there would be need for much concurrency in XSLT engine
  78. # [13:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm building Saxon 9 excluding the s9 API against JDK 1.4 without having the java.util.concurrent API present. As far as I can tell, Saxon itself runs on a single thread at a time but the compiled transformations are safe for concurrent reads
  79. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - hmm
  80. # [13:30] <hsivonen> well, I guess it isn't important that Debian chooses to make saxon depend on util-concurrent
  81. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> yeah, I suppose
  82. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - anyway, it appears that it's an indirect dependency
  83. # [13:32] <hsivonen> ok
  84. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> from libdom4j-java and libjaxen-java
  85. # [13:32] <hsivonen> ah
  86. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> in fact, it appears that all the other dependencies come from just libdom4j-java
  87. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> including the libjaxen-java dependency
  88. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> actual direct dependencies for libsaxonb-java are just:
  89. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> Depends: java-gcj-compa | java1-runtime | java2-runtime, libdom4j-java, libjdom1-java
  90. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm glad it's finally available on Debian
  91. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> it's been a long time coming
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  113. # [16:35] <aroben> DanC_lap: I'd like to attend the telecon today, but it's my first one so I may have some newbie questions for you :-)
  114. # [16:40] <DanC_lap> sure
  115. # [16:40] <DanC_lap> any questions come to mind now, aroben ?
  116. # [16:41] <aroben> DanC_lap: not at the moment. I read up on the guide to using the Zakim bridge
  117. # [16:41] * DanC_lap changes topic to 'HTML WG teleconference 7 Feb 17:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
  118. # [16:41] <aroben> DanC_lap: and registered myself with the bridge database
  119. # [16:51] <Julian> aroben: over at http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html? I just tried that and it prompts me for credentials; and apparently doesn't like those I have...
  120. # [16:51] <aroben> Julian: yes
  121. # [16:51] <aroben> Julian: I used the same credentials that I use to log in to the HTML WG area of w3.org
  122. # [16:51] * DanC_lap wanders off to catch up on breakfast/shower sorts of stuff...
  123. # [17:02] <Julian> aroben: doesn't work for me -- let's see what the admins tell me...
  124. # [17:07] <anne> Julian, are you a public IE or W3C IE?
  125. # [17:08] <Julian> anne: I'm an Invited Expert, but not sure which category I fall into.
  126. # [17:09] <anne> if you're just an IE for the HTML WG you're a public IE and therefore not allowed to visit that page
  127. # [17:09] <Julian> anne: ok, thanks for the clarification.
  128. # [17:27] <anne> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2008-February/000641.html ...
  129. # [17:28] <anne> are they not aware that people are looking into these issues?
  130. # [17:28] <anne> doesn't sound like they're willing to actively cooperate with those people
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  133. # [18:00] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  134. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
  135. # [18:00] <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aaaa is me
  136. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  137. # [18:00] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@129.33.1.37) (Ping timeout)
  138. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.703.282.aabb
  139. # [18:03] <Zakim> - +1.703.282.aabb
  140. # [18:03] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  141. # [18:03] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/07-html-wg-irc
  142. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.703.282.aacc
  143. # [18:03] * DanC_lap Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  144. # [18:03] * Zakim ok, DanC_lap; the call is being made
  145. # [18:03] <Zakim> +DanC
  146. # [18:04] <aroben> Zakim: conference code?
  147. # [18:05] <Julian> Zakim, conference code?
  148. # [18:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Julian
  149. # [18:05] <aroben> Julian: thanks
  150. # [18:05] * aroben supposes : vs , matters
  151. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.814.308.aadd
  152. # [18:05] <aroben> Zakim, +1.814.308.aadd is me
  153. # [18:05] <Zakim> +aroben; got it
  154. # [18:06] <Zakim> -DanC
  155. # [18:06] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  156. # [18:08] <Julian> Usually this works much better :-)
  157. # [18:08] * aroben doesn't hear anything, assumes no one is talking
  158. # [18:09] <Zakim> +DanC
  159. # [18:09] <anne> Julian, is there any process whatsoever on getting the IETF to adopt HTML or something as base format?
  160. # [18:10] <Julian> Annw: has been tried many times with no access. Big Sigh.
  161. # [18:10] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  162. # [18:10] <anne> k :(
  163. # [18:10] * DanC_lap recovers from network glitch
  164. # [18:11] <Julian> s/access/success/
  165. # [18:11] <DanC_lap> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008JanMar/0012.html
  166. # [18:11] <DanC_lap> agenda + Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-02-07T17:00:00Z
  167. # [18:11] * Zakim notes agendum 9 added
  168. # [18:11] <DanC_lap> Zakim, take up item 1
  169. # [18:11] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-01-24T17:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
  170. # [18:11] <DanC_lap> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  171. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, +1.703.282.aacc, aroben, DanC
  172. # [18:12] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.74)
  173. # [18:12] <DanC_lap> Zakim, aacc is Miles_DeFeyter
  174. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Miles_DeFeyter; got it
  175. # [18:13] <DanC_lap> Adam Roben Apple, Inc.
  176. # [18:13] <DanC_lap> all new WG members are invited to fill out a survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tasks83/results#xbgbio
  177. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  178. # [18:13] <DanC_lap> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  179. # [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, Miles_DeFeyter, aroben, DanC, [Microsoft]
  180. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  181. # [18:13] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  182. # [18:14] * Joins: MattRaymond (mraymond@70.147.81.16)
  183. # [18:14] <DanC_lap> agenda + sniffing tests ACTION-44
  184. # [18:14] * Zakim notes agendum 10 added
  185. # [18:15] * DanC_lap would like help scribing
  186. # [18:15] <DanC_lap> Miles introduces himself... leads adoption of modern tech at AOL
  187. # [18:16] <Zakim> -Miles_DeFeyter
  188. # [18:16] <sampablokuper> DanC: Thanks for the survey link. I see I'm a non-responder. Will correct that asap.
  189. # [18:16] <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aaee
  190. # [18:17] <MattRaymond> Survey URL?
  191. # [18:17] <DanC_lap> thanks, sam
  192. # [18:17] <DanC_lap> all new WG members are invited to fill out a survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tasks83/results#xbgbio
  193. # [18:17] <DanC_lap> Zakim, aaee is Miles
  194. # [18:17] <Zakim> +Miles; got it
  195. # [18:17] <DanC_lap> Zakim, next item
  196. # [18:17] <Zakim> agendum 8. "phrase-level and semantic element discussion... separate mailing list?" taken up [from DanC]
  197. # [18:17] <anne> Regrets+ Anne
  198. # [18:17] <anne> (my apologies, something came up)
  199. # [18:18] <DanC_lap> Emphasizing STRIKE Leif Halvard Silli (Wednesday, 6 February) etc.
  200. # [18:19] <MattRaymond> Semantic discussions probably account for > 50% of the mail on the mailing list already...
  201. # [18:19] <DanC_lap> DanC: I added many of the phrase level elements to HTML 2; I'm not sure I made good choices, and I'm inclined to stay out of the modern discussion; how about a separate mailing list?
  202. # [18:19] <Julian> ...another topic would be accessability
  203. # [18:19] <DanC_lap> MattRaymond, are you on the phone? hmm.. expand from just phrase-level to semantic? I wonder.
  204. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> true, though I'm a little inclined to treat accessibility as a basic, that everyone needs to internalize.
  205. # [18:20] <MattRaymond> I'm not on the phone. My cell's battery is too low.
  206. # [18:20] <DanC_lap> indeed, let's not separate out accessibility
  207. # [18:21] <MattRaymond> Perhaps separate out <canvas>???
  208. # [18:21] <Julian> +1
  209. # [18:21] <ChrisWilson> +1
  210. # [18:21] <DanC_lap> agenda + separate canvas [MattRaymond]
  211. # [18:21] * Zakim notes agendum 11 added
  212. # [18:21] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@213.236.208.22) (Ping timeout)
  213. # [18:21] <MattRaymond> I meant that in a mailing list context, BTW...
  214. # [18:21] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan start mailing list on phrase level semantic elements
  215. # [18:21] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  216. # [18:21] * RRSAgent records action 1
  217. # [18:21] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-48 - Start mailing list on phrase level semantic elements [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-14].
  218. # [18:22] <DanC_lap> brainstorm: public-html-phrase@w3.org
  219. # [18:22] <DanC_lap> brainstorm: public-html-phrase-elements@w3.org
  220. # [18:22] <DanC_lap> brainstorm: public-html-strong-vs-b@w3.org
  221. # [18:22] <anne> for those few e-mails?
  222. # [18:22] * Philip doesn't think separating canvas mail would be useful, given the volume involved, and given that most canvas discussion occurs on the WHATWG list anyway
  223. # [18:22] * anne is sort of absent, but not really
  224. # [18:22] <DanC_lap> seems like more than few to me
  225. # [18:22] <aroben> anne: do you mean canvas-related emails or phrase-related emails?
  226. # [18:22] <anne> please do check the declining rate of e-mail here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/
  227. # [18:23] <anne> aroben, either
  228. # [18:23] <Julian> public-html-phrase-elements@w3.org
  229. # [18:23] <ChrisWilson> Philip - then I'd like somewhere where I could get the relevant MS people involved in a discussion, that IS under our patent policy, to discuss canvas.
  230. # [18:23] <DanC_lap> tx
  231. # [18:23] <anne> splitting out <canvas> e-mail would make even less sense
  232. # [18:23] <sampablokuper> Julian: +1
  233. # [18:23] <DanC_lap> agenda?
  234. # [18:23] * Zakim sees 4 items remaining on the agenda:
  235. # [18:23] * Zakim 8. phrase-level and semantic element discussion... separate mailing list? [from DanC]
  236. # [18:23] * Zakim 9. Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-02-07T17:00:00Z [from DanC_lap]
  237. # [18:23] * Zakim 10. sniffing tests ACTION-44 [from DanC_lap]
  238. # [18:23] * Zakim 11. separate canvas [from MattRaymond via DanC_lap]
  239. # [18:23] <DanC_lap> Zakim, close item 9
  240. # [18:23] <Zakim> agendum 9, Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-02-07T17:00:00Z, closed
  241. # [18:23] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  242. # [18:23] <Zakim> 8. phrase-level and semantic element discussion... separate mailing list? [from DanC]
  243. # [18:23] <DanC_lap> Zakim, close item 8
  244. # [18:23] <Zakim> agendum 8, phrase-level and semantic element discussion... separate mailing list?, closed
  245. # [18:23] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  246. # [18:23] <Zakim> 10. sniffing tests ACTION-44 [from DanC_lap]
  247. # [18:23] * anne doesn't see how splitting up some stuff helps anyone; oh well
  248. # [18:23] <DanC_lap> Zakim, next item
  249. # [18:23] <Zakim> agendum 10. "sniffing tests ACTION-44" taken up [from DanC_lap]
  250. # [18:24] <DanC_lap> issue-28?
  251. # [18:24] * trackbot-ng getting information on ISSUE-28
  252. # [18:24] <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-28 -- Content type rules in HTML 5 overlaps with the HTTP specification? -- OPEN
  253. # [18:24] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/28
  254. # [18:25] <DanC_lap> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0099.html on Investigate expected results to http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ tests in collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG
  255. # [18:26] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.151.228.75) (Quit: Partying in teh intarwebs)
  256. # [18:26] <DanC_lap> anne, can you look into getting the content-encoding wierdness isolated/fixed?
  257. # [18:27] <DanC_lap> Julian: I got an answer to my question about illegal characters in text/html
  258. # [18:27] * Joins: Miles (milesdefey@64.236.128.9)
  259. # [18:27] <MattRaymond> Off-topic: If we have time, could you talk about handling experimental extensions to HTML documents in HTML5?
  260. # [18:29] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan prompt Ian Hickson to answer the question about why the sniffing rules are a MUST
  261. # [18:29] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  262. # [18:29] * RRSAgent records action 2
  263. # [18:29] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-49 - Prompt Ian Hickson to answer the question about why the sniffing rules are a MUST [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-14].
  264. # [18:32] <DanC_lap> JR: yes, I'll send a few data points about the test results
  265. # [18:32] <DanC_lap> DanC: ok; then I'll mark them up in EARL
  266. # [18:32] <DanC_lap> (and hReview)
  267. # [18:34] <DanC_lap> Zakim, close this item
  268. # [18:34] <Zakim> agendum 10 closed
  269. # [18:34] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  270. # [18:34] <Zakim> 11. separate canvas [from MattRaymond via DanC_lap]
  271. # [18:34] * DanC_lap oops; closed it too soon
  272. # [18:34] <MattRaymond> Doh!
  273. # [18:34] <DanC_lap> Julian, pointer to this item in the http issues list?
  274. # [18:35] * DanC_lap wonders if we have a half-duplex connection
  275. # [18:35] <Julian> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/20
  276. # [18:36] <DanC_lap> DanC: oh; they're using trac?
  277. # [18:36] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  278. # [18:36] <DanC_lap> JR: yes; mnot ported the issues over
  279. # [18:36] <DanC_lap> ticket 20 is "Default charsets for text media types"
  280. # [18:37] <MattRaymond> "...have a default charset value of 'ISO-8859-1'..."
  281. # [18:38] <DanC_lap> action-46?
  282. # [18:38] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-46
  283. # [18:38] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-46 -- Julian Reschke to ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans to update http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt -- due 2008-01-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  284. # [18:38] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/46
  285. # [18:38] <DanC_lap> JR: Eric Lawrence [sp?] is in the HTTP WG records
  286. # [18:38] <DanC_lap> CW: yes, he's on the IE team
  287. # [18:39] <ChrisWilson> [correct sp]
  288. # [18:39] <DanC_lap> close action-46
  289. # [18:39] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-46.
  290. # [18:39] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-46 Ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans to update http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt closed
  291. # [18:39] <DanC_lap> "It is not a high priority item, but I'd
  292. # [18:39] <DanC_lap> > think I'll do it some time in Q1 2008."
  293. # [18:40] <DanC_lap> action-11?
  294. # [18:40] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-11
  295. # [18:40] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-11 -- Dan Connolly to show how <div aria="something"> works with URI based extensibility -- due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN
  296. # [18:40] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/11
  297. # [18:40] <DanC_lap> continues. :-/
  298. # [18:40] <DanC_lap> agenda + aria-role ISSUE-14
  299. # [18:40] * Zakim notes agendum 12 added
  300. # [18:40] <DanC_lap> Zakim, take up item 12
  301. # [18:40] <Zakim> agendum 12. "aria-role ISSUE-14" taken up [from DanC_lap]
  302. # [18:41] <MattRaymond> Please make lots of IRC messages on Action-11/Issue-14, folks.
  303. # [18:41] <DanC_lap> action-8?
  304. # [18:41] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-8
  305. # [18:41] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-8 -- Michael Cooper to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute -- due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN
  306. # [18:41] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/8
  307. # [18:41] * Joins: jgraham_mibbit (836f44b5@89.238.143.101)
  308. # [18:41] <DanC_lap> action-23?
  309. # [18:41] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-23
  310. # [18:41] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-23 -- Gregory Rosmaita to coordinate tests using ARIA -- due 2008-02-14 -- OPEN
  311. # [18:41] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23
  312. # [18:41] <DanC_lap> agenda + next meeting 14 Feb?
  313. # [18:41] * Zakim notes agendum 13 added
  314. # [18:42] <DanC_lap> CW: yes, I can chair next week. 4pm Los Angeles time
  315. # [18:42] <DanC_lap> -> http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item17 WAI-ARIA for Accessible Rich Web Applications: First Public Working Drafts
  316. # [18:42] <MattRaymond> So, the whole "aria-*" business will be discussed next week?
  317. # [18:43] <DanC_lap> it's being discussed now
  318. # [18:43] <MattRaymond> Sorry, not on phone.
  319. # [18:43] <DanC_lap> ok
  320. # [18:43] <DanC_lap> anybody know if Gregory is likely to attend next week?
  321. # [18:44] <DanC_lap> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0192.html <- that stuff happened
  322. # [18:45] <DanC_lap> agenda + HTML WG test jam in Austin at SXSW
  323. # [18:45] * Zakim notes agendum 14 added
  324. # [18:46] <DanC_lap> agenda?
  325. # [18:46] * Zakim sees 4 items remaining on the agenda:
  326. # [18:46] * Zakim 11. separate canvas [from MattRaymond via DanC_lap]
  327. # [18:46] * Zakim 12. aria-role ISSUE-14 [from DanC_lap]
  328. # [18:46] * Zakim 13. next meeting 14 Feb? [from DanC_lap]
  329. # [18:46] * Zakim 14. HTML WG test jam in Austin at SXSW [from DanC_lap]
  330. # [18:46] <DanC_lap> Zakim, close item 13
  331. # [18:46] <Zakim> agendum 13, next meeting 14 Feb?, closed
  332. # [18:46] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  333. # [18:46] <Zakim> 11. separate canvas [from MattRaymond via DanC_lap]
  334. # [18:46] <DanC_lap> Zakim, next item
  335. # [18:46] <Zakim> agendum 11. "separate canvas" taken up [from MattRaymond]
  336. # [18:46] <DanC_lap> issue-15?
  337. # [18:46] * trackbot-ng getting information on ISSUE-15
  338. # [18:46] <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-15 -- requirement for Immediate Mode Graphics and canvas element -- CLOSED
  339. # [18:46] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/15
  340. # [18:47] <DanC_lap> who was interested in a separate mailing list for canvas?
  341. # [18:47] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@87.102.19.44)
  342. # [18:47] <MattRaymond> Not me. I was just thinking off the top of my head.
  343. # [18:48] <DanC_lap> CW: I'd like to accelerate work on canvas, and it's easier for MS folks in a separate mailing list at W3C
  344. # [18:48] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.33.210) (Ping timeout)
  345. # [18:48] * tH_ is now known as tH
  346. # [18:49] <MattRaymond> Anything that would accelerate MS adoption of <canvas> is welcome, I suppose, but what are the main roadblocks that a separate mailing list would remove?
  347. # [18:49] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan investigate separate mailing list on cavas/2d-graphics API with Doug S. and Chris W.
  348. # [18:49] * RRSAgent records action 3
  349. # [18:49] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  350. # [18:49] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-50 - Investigate separate mailing list on cavas/2d-graphics API with Doug S. and Chris W. [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-14].
  351. # [18:49] <DanC_lap> Zakim, next item
  352. # [18:50] <Zakim> agendum 14. "HTML WG test jam in Austin at SXSW" taken up [from DanC_lap]
  353. # [18:50] <DanC_lap> action-42?
  354. # [18:50] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-42
  355. # [18:50] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-42 -- Dan Connolly to ask Olivier and Karl about progress on "story telling and test cases" since the Nov ftf http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html#item01 -- due 2008-01-30 -- OPEN
  356. # [18:50] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/42
  357. # [18:50] <DanC_lap> DanC: how about a test jam 7-11 March in Austin near SXSW?
  358. # [18:51] <Miles> i am for it
  359. # [18:51] <DanC_lap> anybody likely to attend, in addition to me?
  360. # [18:52] <DanC_lap> CW: I'm getting in late on 9 Mar
  361. # [18:52] <aroben> DanC_lap: at least not in person
  362. # [18:52] <Miles> I can attend anytime during the 7-11 timeframe
  363. # [18:52] <DanC_lap> ok, so I'll look into 10 or 11 March
  364. # [18:52] <DanC_lap> CW: we're reprising the panel with CMN, Brendan... on 10 March
  365. # [18:53] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan try to set up an HTML WG test jam in Austin 10 or 11 March
  366. # [18:53] * RRSAgent records action 4
  367. # [18:53] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  368. # [18:53] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-51 - Try to set up an HTML WG test jam in Austin 10 or 11 March [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-02-14].
  369. # [18:53] <DanC_lap> Zakim, next item
  370. # [18:53] <Zakim> I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, DanC_lap
  371. # [18:54] <DanC_lap> ADJOURN.
  372. # [18:54] <Zakim> -aroben
  373. # [18:54] <Zakim> -Julian
  374. # [18:54] <Zakim> -DanC
  375. # [18:54] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  376. # [18:54] * Parts: Miles (milesdefey@64.236.128.9)
  377. # [18:54] <Zakim> -Miles
  378. # [18:54] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  379. # [18:54] <Zakim> Attendees were Julian, +1.703.282.aabb, +1.703.282.aacc, DanC, aroben, Miles_DeFeyter, ChrisWilson, +1.703.265.aaee, Miles
  380. # [18:55] <MattRaymond> Okay, anyone want to talk about how to handle experimental HTML5 implementations in release browsers. I think Opera showed how that's an issue with their WF2 support...
  381. # [18:57] <aroben> MattRaymond: not sure what you mean
  382. # [18:57] <jgraham_mibbit> MattRaymond: What's the problem, exactly? I you mean "people will implement and then we'll be constrained by those implementations", that's not necessarily a bad thing...
  383. # [18:58] <MattRaymond> It would be nice if there was an established way to handle experimental extensions, like we already can in CSS the the "-vendor-" prefix.
  384. # [18:58] * DanC_lap suffers from one of the risks of working from home... with dogs... pew.
  385. # [18:59] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@129.33.1.37)
  386. # [18:59] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
  387. # [18:59] <MattRaymond> You could already do that for <input> types: "-vendor-datetime"...
  388. # [18:59] * Quits: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146) (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!)
  389. # [18:59] * DanC_lap wanders off to next telcon...
  390. # [18:59] <jgraham_mibbit> With attributes it could work though it would be ugly. For elements I don't think it can work
  391. # [19:00] <jgraham_mibbit> e.g. <apple-canvas> would just become the de-facto standard rather than <canvas>
  392. # [19:00] <jgraham_mibbit> and I don't quite see what the win is
  393. # [19:01] <MattRaymond> Perhaps an attribute, then: <canvas experimental="true">???
  394. # [19:01] <MattRaymond> <canvas ua="IE8">?
  395. # [19:02] <MattRaymond> Oh, that looks bad! :(
  396. # [19:02] <Philip> What would that attribute do?
  397. # [19:02] <MattRaymond> That's why it looks bad.
  398. # [19:03] <jgraham_mibbit> What's the problem you're trying to solve?
  399. # [19:03] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  400. # [19:04] <DanC_lap> close action-42
  401. # [19:04] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-42.
  402. # [19:04] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-42 Ask Olivier and Karl about progress on "story telling and test cases" since the Nov ftf http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html#item01 closed
  403. # [19:04] <MattRaymond> Idea is to somehow have experimental markup work only in a specific UA, but I guess that in itself is a poor idea on the Internet...
  404. # [19:05] <ChrisWilson> Matt/Jgraham: not sure what's wrong with experiment-canvas?
  405. # [19:06] <jgraham_mibbit> MattRaymond: Well it will already only work in UAs that support it... the main problem I see is that sometimes the first implementations aren't great, or the spec moves and people need to update their implementation without breaking existing content
  406. # [19:06] <Philip> If a UA is implementing a new element like <canvas>, then people can just write <canvas ...> and already it will work only in that specific UA
  407. # [19:07] <aroben> Philip: I guess the worry is that the behavior of that element might change over time
  408. # [19:07] <ChrisWilson> the problem happens when people have already written the content, and you want to standardize it slightly differently. Hence the x-ua-compatible (which covers things like the XHR "we'll change it in the standard" things as well as CSS2.1 changes from CSS2)
  409. # [19:08] <ChrisWilson> WILL change over time.
  410. # [19:08] <ChrisWilson> unless you just standardize the first experimental implementation.
  411. # [19:09] <MattRaymond> In either case, if you don't have a good specification of the feature BEFORE implementation, it hurts everyone.
  412. # [19:09] <MattRaymond> It need not be open, per se, but it would need to be at least implementable from the spec.
  413. # [19:10] <MattRaymond> Not that I think well-specced proprietary markup is the way to go, mind you.
  414. # [19:10] <ChrisWilson> "need not be open"?
  415. # [19:10] <jgraham_mibbit> ChrisWilson: That depends on a lot of things, like how long the experimental implementation is around for, how big the incompatible changes are, how many sites use the feature. For <canvas> there have been a few incompatible changes that early adopters have agreed to
  416. # [19:10] <jgraham_mibbit> s/adopters/implementors/
  417. # [19:10] <MattRaymond> CW: To be implementable by others, it need not be from an open standards process, in other words.
  418. # [19:11] <MattRaymond> But it does need to be implementable in an open fashion.
  419. # [19:11] <ChrisWilson> ah. True. But open standards should be openly developed, I presume?
  420. # [19:12] <MattRaymond> Yes. Provides more review and input.
  421. # [19:12] <MattRaymond> Also assures less of a conflict of interest in development of the spec.
  422. # [19:12] <Philip> <canvas> mostly doesn't come from an open standards process
  423. # [19:12] <jgraham_mibbit> MattRaymond: Having features developed by standards committees has not historically led to good standards
  424. # [19:12] * ChrisWilson has to run - late to meeting
  425. # [19:12] <Philip> (and it seems people think that was a mistake)
  426. # [19:13] <jgraham_mibbit> Implementation and development need to be closely entwined
  427. # [19:13] <jgraham_mibbit> s/development/standardization/
  428. # [19:14] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  429. # [19:15] * Joins: adele (adele@67.170.232.64)
  430. # [19:17] <MattRaymond> True. Obviously, ideas have to start somewhere. ODF started as a proprietary format. The difference between that and something like OOXML is that ODF was both intended for external implementation, was altered to better support other standards during the standardization process, and went through a much more open process. Standardization of various concepts should start at as early a stage as...
  431. # [19:17] <MattRaymond> ...possible to minimize damage.
  432. # [19:19] <jgraham_mibbit> Yeah, I agree
  433. # [19:28] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718])
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  435. # [19:31] * Quits: MattRaymond (mraymond@70.147.81.16) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718])
  436. # [19:38] * anne doesn't quite get the question from DanC
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  440. # [19:50] * Quits: adele (adele@67.170.232.64) (Quit: adele)
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  445. # [19:59] <aroben> anne: he was hoping someone would be able to change hixie.ch so that it doesn't serve some of the tests with Content-Encoding: gzip
  446. # [19:59] <aroben> anne: and he thought you might be able to make that change.
  447. # [20:05] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.253.193.147)
  448. # [20:06] <gsnedders> aroben: Hixie and Hixie only can
  449. # [20:06] <aroben> gsnedders: that was my assumption
  450. # [20:09] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
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  456. # [20:46] * jgraham wonders if he should just keep adding issues to the tracker every time somebody asks
  457. # [20:47] <Dashiva> Isn't that why you have access, so you can judge what needs to be added?
  458. # [20:49] <ChrisWilson> yes
  459. # [20:49] <jgraham> I don't have a clear idea of what criteria I should use to judge though
  460. # [20:53] <jgraham> (the things so far have all seemed reasonable, but I don't really know what to do if someone asks for something crazy to be added)
  461. # [20:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: can you add the issue of not mandating well-formness errors in text/html?
  462. # [20:55] <gsnedders> s/errors/fatal errors/
  463. # [20:55] <smedero> jgraham: everything you've added so far made sense as an issue to me.
  464. # [20:56] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  465. # [20:56] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  466. # [20:58] <smedero> At one point
  467. # [20:58] <smedero> Mike Smith and Dan Connolly had a thread on this
  468. # [20:58] <smedero> DanC said
  469. # [20:58] <smedero> "An issue is something that the whole WG should decide on;
  470. # [20:58] <smedero> just because one person makes a request doesn't oblige
  471. # [20:58] <smedero> the whole WG to act on it.
  472. # [20:58] <smedero> Feel free to take actions any time you please, but be
  473. # [20:58] <smedero> conservative about making new issues, please."
  474. # [20:58] <smedero> that said... the issues raised seemed like matters that generated a large amount of discussion within the group
  475. # [20:59] <smedero> longdesc and image alt=""
  476. # [20:59] <smedero> they're pretty well documented on the wiki (I know image alt="" is and I think longdesc/summary are too)
  477. # [21:00] <smedero> well... "well documented" in this case means a "ton of info = organized".
  478. # [21:00] <smedero> i meant unorganized...
  479. # [21:01] * jgraham also has vauge concerns about race conditions when people ask for issues to be added via the mailing list
  480. # [21:05] <smedero> sorry I've been slacking on the issue tracking help... i'm in the "last throws" of relocate myself from the east to west coast.
  481. # [21:06] <smedero> thankfullly my philly house just went on the market yesterday
  482. # [21:06] <smedero> and my wife and child are moving out to seattle tomorrow
  483. # [21:06] <smedero> not that anyone cares. :)
  484. # [21:06] <smedero> just explaining my total drop-off since Jan 1.
  485. # [21:08] <jgraham> smedero: I will probably slack off when I start writing up my thesis. OTOH, it might seem like good procrastination :)
  486. # [21:18] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@129.33.1.37) (Ping timeout)
  487. # [21:22] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.151.228.75) (Quit: Partying in teh intarwebs)
  488. # [21:23] <ChrisWilson> smedero: well I care - we can hang out! Where in Seattle are you moving?
  489. # [21:35] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@129.33.1.37)
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  495. # [21:51] <smedero> ChrisWilson: I'm living in Wallingford (renting for now) and working in Bellevue.
  496. # [21:52] <smedero> Wallingford seemed pretty family friendly, was close to Green Lake, and seemed accessible to the other major points of Seattle.
  497. # [21:54] <smedero> My carpool passes Microsoft Connector shuttles on the freeway and we keep hoping we can leech some wifi access but predictably that has not worked so well. :)
  498. # [21:56] <ChrisWilson> Nice! We lived in Wallingford (39th and Eastern Ave) when we first moved to Seattle. It's a fun neighborhood, and it is convenient to a lot of Seattle.
  499. # [21:58] <ChrisWilson> We live north-east from there now, way up in View Ridge neighborhood (NE 75th St and 45th Avenue NE)
  500. # [21:59] <smedero> Ok, I'm vaguely familiar with that... I've been taking the bus out to the various spots to just get acquainted with things before my family arrives.
  501. # [21:59] <smedero> We are carless for the time being....
  502. # [21:59] <smedero> my tired jeep cherokee didn't feel like driving or being towed for 2700 miles...
  503. # [21:59] <ChrisWilson> Wallingford worked WAY better with the bus system (and bike) than View Ridge.
  504. # [22:01] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  505. # [22:01] <ChrisWilson> I think the wi-fi on the Connector is locked down pretty hard, though - I've tried to connect from my car driving alongside the bus (no, not me driving)
  506. # [22:01] <smedero> hahahaha. yeah, I wasn't surprised.
  507. # [22:02] <ChrisWilson> whoops, late for a meeting again.
  508. # [22:02] * ChrisWilson is afk
  509. # [22:09] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@129.33.1.37) (Ping timeout)
  510. # [22:12] <Lachy> oh, I forgot all about the telcon again.
  511. # [22:15] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@129.33.1.37)
  512. # [22:15] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
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  515. # [22:33] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  516. # [22:35] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  517. # [22:41] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@129.33.1.37)
  518. # [22:41] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
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  520. # [22:50] * Quits: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@129.33.1.37) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox 3.0b4pre/2008020604])
  521. # [22:51] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@129.33.1.37) (Ping timeout)
  522. # [23:05] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  523. # [23:12] * Joins: sbuluf (kj@200.49.132.69)
  524. # [23:37] * Parts: timbl_ (timbl@128.30.6.254)
  525. # Session Close: Fri Feb 08 00:00:00 2008

The end :)