/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-02-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 14 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  29. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok (rel value thing)
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  38. # [11:32] <hsivonen> SMIL Timesheets aren't attracting comments http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-smil/2008JanMar/
  39. # [11:41] <anne> hopefully they do something with that information
  40. # [11:43] <hsivonen> btw, failure to adhere to the principle of least suprise is bad. I get a steady stream of incoming links from people who have had their design broken by the PNG gamma stuff and who have then googled and found my page.
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  53. # [15:10] <anne> Julian, http://nedbatchelder.com/blog/200704/xss_with_utf7.html
  54. # [15:10] <anne> (through Google)
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  58. # [15:16] <Julian> Anne, thanks. Ironically, none of the four major UAs I tried seem to be vulnerable (tried with http://nedbatchelder.com/utf7.html)
  59. # [15:16] <anne> Well, they have probably been patched
  60. # [15:17] <anne> well, IE
  61. # [15:17] <anne> we should probably drop support for UTF-7 altogether for Web content if that's feasible
  62. # [15:17] <hsivonen> Julian: Minefield is vulnerable when combined with social engineering
  63. # [15:18] <Julian> Henri, is that also related to UTF-7?
  64. # [15:18] <hsivonen> social engineering being: "To view these scandalous images, please select View > Character Encoding > More Encodings > Unicode > UTF-7
  65. # [15:18] <anne> Opera is too, it seems
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  67. # [15:19] <gsnedders> Julian: Mosaic was the UA that ignored ;charset=, but everything else has copied it, as content depends upon it, so effectively it's 100% of modern UAs
  68. # [15:20] <gsnedders> (I'll send a proper reply to ietf-http-wg later)
  69. # [15:21] <Julian> I think we need test cases.
  70. # [15:21] <Julian> Does the UTF-7 issue in Mozilla (the encoding available through the UI as override) have an issue#?
  71. # [15:23] <hsivonen> IIRC, it does
  72. # [15:23] <hsivonen> let's see
  73. # [15:24] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=406777
  74. # [15:24] <hsivonen> see also https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=408457
  75. # [15:24] <hsivonen> and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=414064
  76. # [15:25] <anne> that's not a problem with HTTP though
  77. # [15:25] <anne> which may be what Julian is after
  78. # [15:26] <anne> that's more a UI issue or an issue with supporting UTF-7 in the first place (HTML5 forbids it)
  79. # [15:26] <Julian> Well, it's not HTTP's problem, except for servers apparently labeling content as ISO-8859-1 to prevent content sniffing to happen; so working around UA bugs.
  80. # [15:27] <anne> no
  81. # [15:27] <anne> UI override always works
  82. # [15:27] <hsivonen> UTF-7 is not a bug. it's a misfeature
  83. # [15:27] <anne> and there are no UA bugs as you verified yourself with regards to sniffing
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  85. # [15:31] <Lachy> I wonder if there are any legitimate sites that use UTF-7, which would break if UAs dropped support for it?
  86. # [15:31] <Lachy> although, it's a really pointless encoding to use
  87. # [15:33] <Philip> There's a number of emails with utf-7 attachments, so any web-based mail reader with direct links to attachments would break
  88. # [15:35] <hsivonen> Philip: there are already other reasons to sanitize attachments in webmail
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  106. # [17:59] <MattRaymond> Can someone remind me how this phone + IRC thing works?
  107. # [18:00] <anne> the meeting today is in six hours or so, fwiw
  108. # [18:01] <anne> but typically you do "Zakim, passcode?" and it gives you a list of phone numbers and the conference code
  109. # [18:01] <MattRaymond> Oh, okay. I didn't see where it said it was at 7pm EST.
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  126. # [20:41] * DanC_lap tunes in briefly...
  127. # [20:41] <DanC_lap> hixie? did you see a question about why the sniffing rules are a MUST?
  128. # [20:41] * DanC_lap hunts for pointer...
  129. # [20:43] <DanC_lap> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0214.html Mark Baker asking "what is accomplished by making it normative exactly?"
  130. # [20:44] <DanC_lap> JR cites that in his investigation in collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0099.html
  131. # [20:44] <DanC_lap> hmm... quiet around here.
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  138. # [22:16] <Hixie> DanC_lap: yeah, i thought maciej and boris had answered that satisfactorily so i figured i'd rather not add to the noise (e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0264.html )
  139. # [22:18] <DanC_lap> ah, well, an answer from the editor is different. but now I have one; thanks.
  140. # [22:20] <Julian> I don't think the security argument works -- not doing sniffing should be at least as secure as doing sniffing.
  141. # [22:21] <Hixie> right, the security argument is that _if_ sniffing happens, then it must happen as per the spec
  142. # [22:21] <Julian> I think I agree with the desire that everybody who *does* implement sniffing does it the same way, though.
  143. # [22:21] <anne> is sniffing optional, but if implemented it MUST be done in a certain way currently?
  144. # [22:22] <Hixie> right now i think it is just a must
  145. # [22:22] <anne> might be good to change
  146. # [22:22] <Julian> But, as far as I recall (and as pointed out by Frank E. I think), the spec doesn't guarentee that anyway because it doesn't say excatly how many octets need to be considered.
  147. # [22:22] <Julian> Anne: exactly.
  148. # [22:22] <Julian> Anne: that would allow recipients how *want* to stick to mime-respect can do that.
  149. # [22:23] <Julian> Anne: it would also make UAs compliant that allow disabling sniffing.
  150. # [22:23] <Hixie> sadly we can't define how many bytes must be considered
  151. # [22:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: why not?
  152. # [22:23] <Julian> Hixie: well, unless you specify a really small amount, right?
  153. # [22:23] <Hixie> the really small amount would have to be 1 byte
  154. # [22:23] <Julian> Why 1?
  155. # [22:23] <Hixie> gsnedders: imagine a server that sends one byte then waits a minute
  156. # [22:24] <gsnedders> ah.
  157. # [22:24] <Julian> Hixie: that's a problem anyway; no matter whether you do sniffing or not, right?
  158. # [22:24] <Hixie> depends what the context is
  159. # [22:25] <anne> that behavior also makes encoding sniffing non-deterministic at the moment
  160. # [22:25] <anne> i don't really like that
  161. # [22:25] <Hixie> i don't like sniffing full stop
  162. # [22:25] <Hixie> sadly it's not really about what we like
  163. # [22:25] <Julian> I think that's why RoyF has proposed a concrete number of octets.
  164. # [22:25] <Hixie> the spec used to require 512
  165. # [22:25] <Julian> (for charset sniffing in HTTP)
  166. # [22:25] <Hixie> that doesn't work
  167. # [22:26] <Hixie> there are pages that have the encoding declaration far further down the document, and we have to support them (or else browsers will support them anyway and the spec will be ignored)
  168. # [22:26] <Hixie> one thing to note btw is that there are many "sniffing" things in the spec
  169. # [22:26] <Hixie> many
  170. # [22:27] <Hixie> some make sense to be optional, some don't (e.g. <img>, <script>)
  171. # [22:27] <Julian> Wait a second; I thought *this* discussion was about content type sniffing.
  172. # [22:27] <Hixie> there are many places where html5 requires content-type sniffing of one sort or another
  173. # [22:27] <Hixie> different resources can even end up being sniffed differently based on context
  174. # [22:28] <Hixie> e.g. <img> vs <script> vs <object> vs top-level browsing context resource
  175. # [22:28] <anne> (I sort of like sniffing, <meta charset=utf-8> is convenient)
  176. # [22:28] <Julian> Back to the question: why is sniffing a MUST?
  177. # [22:29] <Hixie> i answered that above
  178. # [22:29] <Hixie> but if you want a more specific answer, please indicate which "must" you are referring to
  179. # [22:29] <Hixie> do you mean the one at the top of section 4.9?
  180. # [22:29] <Hixie> for top-level browsing context navigation?
  181. # [22:30] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/28
  182. # [22:30] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#content-type-sniffing
  183. # [22:30] <Julian> "The sniffed type of a resource must be found as follows:"
  184. # [22:31] <Hixie> so yes, you mean the one at the top of section 4.9, defining sniffing for top-level browsing context navigation
  185. # [22:31] <Julian> And I didn't see any justification for that.
  186. # [22:31] <Hixie> the reason for that is given immediately above the sentence with the must, in red text, with the word "warning" before it
  187. # [22:31] <Julian> No.
  188. # [22:31] <Hixie> you might not agree with the reason
  189. # [22:31] <Hixie> but that's the reason for the must
  190. # [22:31] <Hixie> (that, and predictable interoperability)
  191. # [22:31] <Julian> That's a reason why it would be dangerous to have *different* types of sniffing.
  192. # [22:31] <anne> Hixie, I think Julian is asking about making sniffing optional, but if implemented it must be done as described
  193. # [22:32] <Julian> It doesn't state why not doing sniffing at all would be a problem.
  194. # [22:32] <anne> Hixie, so that UAs can provide an option to disable sniffing without violating HTML5 and that UAs are also allowed to be stricter if desired
  195. # [22:32] <Hixie> oh, yeah, we could consider making that sniffing optional
  196. # [22:32] <Hixie> let's see
  197. # [22:38] <Hixie> there, it's now permissible to just use the provided type without sniffing
  198. # [22:38] <Hixie> i don't expect any browsers or tools intended for wide consumption to ever implement that, but who knows
  199. # [22:40] <Julian> Sounds good so far. Looking forward to the change.
  200. # [22:40] <Hixie> it's up
  201. # [22:41] <Julian> Great.
  202. # [22:42] <gsnedders> Hixie: on a slightly related note to spec-changes, can we have the whatwg-commit-watches not receive the diff of both source and index?
  203. # [22:43] <Hixie> no :-)
  204. # [22:43] <gsnedders> why not?
  205. # [22:43] <Hixie> it's useful to be able to compare them to make sure no cross-refs broke, etc
  206. # [22:43] <gsnedders> ah
  207. # [22:43] <Hixie> just read the one you want to read :-P
  208. # [22:43] <Hixie> or use the web site interface
  209. # [22:43] <gsnedders> I already do :P
  210. # [22:43] <Hixie> it sends them in the same e-mail anyway
  211. # [22:44] <Hixie> it shouldn't really be a big deal
  212. # [22:44] <Julian> Tracker, this is relevant to ISSUE-28.
  213. # [22:44] * gsnedders ponders which to ignore :)
  214. # [22:44] <Philip> Could you make it put source before index, so one doesn't have to scroll down so far to read the interesting bit? Maybe rename it to 'aaasource' or something :-)
  215. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Hixie: we need cross references that don't break
  216. # [22:44] <gsnedders> oh, wait, I'm the guy who more likely has to deal with the IDs not changing :)
  217. # [22:45] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/temp/commit-email.pl - patches welcome
  218. # [22:46] <gsnedders> Perl… eww.
  219. # [22:46] <Philip> Indented braces, eww :-(
  220. # [22:46] <Hixie> i didn't write it
  221. # [22:46] <gsnedders> well, if you wrote it'd be perfect :)
  222. # [22:47] <Hixie> uh huh
  223. # [22:47] * gsnedders waits to be quoted out of context
  224. # [22:47] <gsnedders> (No, I don't blindingly believe anything Hixie says, really)
  225. # [22:51] * jgraham drops the word cabal in whilst looking away and whistling
  226. # [22:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: you see the latest email on whatwg-cabal BTW? *whistles*
  227. # [22:55] <Dashiva> I'm only subscribed to whawg-secret-treehouse, what did I miss?
  228. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you.
  229. # [22:56] <Dashiva> -9?
  230. # [22:57] <Hixie> lordy
  231. # [22:57] * Hixie goes back to quiet old #whatwg
  232. # [22:57] <gsnedders> not #whatwg-cabal? :P
  233. # [23:02] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  234. # [23:12] <DanC_lap> shepazu, hi! did you happen to check logs from last week? if not, see http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/50
  235. # [23:12] <DanC_lap> ACTION-50
  236. # [23:12] <DanC_lap> Investigate separate mailing list on cavas/2d-graphics API with Doug S. and Chris W.
  237. # [23:12] <shepazu> hi, DanC_lap, thanks for the pointer
  238. # [23:13] <DanC_lap> could I hand that action to you?
  239. # [23:13] <shepazu> we discussed canvas in the SVG F2F yesterday
  240. # [23:13] <DanC_lap> I'm trying to get out of the office for valentine's day
  241. # [23:13] <shepazu> heh
  242. # [23:13] <shepazu> sure, I'll investigate separate mailing list on cavas/2d-graphics API with Doug S. and Chris W.
  243. # [23:13] <shepazu> assign it to me
  244. # [23:14] <DanC_lap> hmm... you're not in the action tracking group. I suppose that's appropriate.
  245. # [23:14] <shepazu> can you switch which group it's assigned to?
  246. # [23:14] <DanC_lap> doubt it.
  247. # [23:14] <anne> can I object against an additional mailing list?
  248. # [23:14] <DanC_lap> anyway... you wanna pick a name?
  249. # [23:14] <shepazu> or I could just duplicate it elsewhere
  250. # [23:14] <DanC_lap> yes, you may object, anne
  251. # [23:14] <shepazu> anne, you can object, sure
  252. # [23:15] <shepazu> anne, what's your rationale?
  253. # [23:15] <anne> having even more places people have to go through to find what they're looking for
  254. # [23:15] <shepazu> anne, can I object to a separate mailing list for WHATWG as opposed to HTML WG? ;P
  255. # [23:15] <anne> you can raise that concern with the WHATWG, certainly
  256. # [23:16] <Philip> The WHATWG list is needed for legacy compatibility
  257. # [23:16] <shepazu> lol
  258. # [23:16] <anne> though I think we've dealt with that already
  259. # [23:16] * Hixie encourages the htmlwg to have as many mailing lists as possible
  260. # [23:16] <shepazu> I think it makes sense to have a separate Canvas list
  261. # [23:16] <Hixie> (though i don't guarentee that i'll remember to mail the right one)
  262. # [23:17] <anne> with every list the W3C adds it becomes easier for contributors to simply join the WHATWG
  263. # [23:17] <Lachy> I don't like the idea of even more mailing lists. I still haven't figured out the difference between public-html and public-html-comments, except that one gets more traffic than the other
  264. # [23:17] <Hixie> anne: shhhhhh
  265. # [23:17] <anne> Hixie, don't be evil ;) :p
  266. # [23:18] <jgraham> anne: I think it's "organising the world's information" now
  267. # [23:18] <Lachy> The 5 existing public-html-* mailing lists is enough.
  268. # [23:18] <shepazu> DanC_lap, why not just "public-canvas-api@w3.org"?
  269. # [23:18] <jgraham> which you could argue more lists achieve
  270. # [23:18] <jgraham> :)
  271. # [23:18] <Hixie> jgraham: google hasn't especially found that siloing information into categories is especially useful
  272. # [23:19] <Hixie> jgraham: good search algorithms seem far more effective
  273. # [23:19] <jgraham> Hixie: Well I tend to agree.
  274. # [23:19] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.57)
  275. # [23:19] <anne> public-...-wtf@w3.org versus whatwg@whatwg.org hmm what should I pick?
  276. # [23:19] <DanC_lap> can't think of any argument against that name, shepazu ... though other buzzwords to mix in might be 2d and graphics
  277. # [23:19] * jgraham is very bad at filing
  278. # [23:20] <shepazu> DanC_lap, best not make it too long, and opera already has a 3d api they might put forth
  279. # [23:20] <Philip> (Mozilla has a 3D API too)
  280. # [23:20] <Hixie> so does mozilla
  281. # [23:20] <anne> DanC_lap, please note my objection based on that I think it makes it harder for people to contribute to the W3C than it already is and also that it makes it harder for existing contributors; in addition, it makes it harder for people to locate stuff related to the HTML WG, etc.
  282. # [23:20] <DanC_lap> I like short names. public-gapi@w3.org works for me
  283. # [23:20] <shepazu> and "canvas" as much as says "graphics"
  284. # [23:21] <Hixie> anne: my impression is that the idea is to reduce the amount of feedback, for which a new mailing list would be an effective solution
  285. # [23:21] <anne> DanC_lap, also please provide rationale for why you're going to overturn that objection as it seems like
  286. # [23:21] <Philip> With more lists, it would be more confusing about e.g. whether canvas tests should go in the 'canvas' list or the 'tests' list
  287. # [23:21] <jgraham> Can someone explain to me what the criteria for getting a special list of one's own is?
  288. # [23:21] <DanC_lap> your argument is noted, anne; I think it makes it easier for people to contribute; I have talked with several such people.
  289. # [23:21] * Lachy votes for public-html-graphics-api-mailing-list@w3.org
  290. # [23:21] <jgraham> Why <canvas> but not <datagrid> for example
  291. # [23:22] <DanC_lap> I don't particularly want people to go via the HTML WG to find work on 2d graphics APIs.
  292. # [23:22] <Hixie> jgraham: presumably because <canvas> is less likely to receive feedback than datagrid, what with it being mostly interoperably implemented already, with many tests already written.
  293. # [23:22] <anne> DanC_lap, it's part of HTML
  294. # [23:22] <shepazu> Hixie, no, it's not to reduce the amount of feedback, it's to allow those only interested in the graphics bit to follow feedback without wading though everything else
  295. # [23:22] <Lachy> but canvas is in the HTML spec, so it makes sense to got there
  296. # [23:22] <jgraham> Is there a plan to use <canvas> outside HTML?
  297. # [23:22] <anne> DanC_lap, oh well, i'll just submit my feedback elsewhere
  298. # [23:22] <DanC_lap> it's not clear to me that a 2d graphics API is or should be part of HTML... any more than it's part of SVG or MathMl
  299. # [23:23] <Hixie> that reminds me, i really should look at the requests for putting math markup in html5
  300. # [23:23] <Lachy> <canvas> is an HTML element. It has it's own API, just like many other HTML elements do. Why shouldn't it be?
  301. # [23:23] <Philip> I don't see any reason to use <canvas> outside HTML, because it's not like it's a particularly good API and nobody else has the constraints of being compatible with the existing <canvas> implementations
  302. # [23:23] <DanC_lap> fair point, Philip
  303. # [23:24] <shepazu> Philip, the SVG WG also wants to use Canvas
  304. # [23:24] <shepazu> canvas API, that is
  305. # [23:24] <hsivonen> multiple lists are easier only if the result is that people subscribe to a proper subset of the set of lists
  306. # [23:24] <hsivonen> so far, I have ended up subscribing to all HTML5 lists
  307. # [23:25] <DanC_lap> I subscribe to a proper subset.
  308. # [23:25] * Quits: kwijibo (kwijibo@87.113.10.93) (Quit: kwijibo)
  309. # [23:25] <shepazu> maybe the HTML WG home page could summarize each list for potential audiences
  310. # [23:26] <DanC_lap> and I don't read all of what I subscribe to; I hope to get stuff organized to the point where I read most of the mail to the lists that I subscribe to.
  311. # [23:26] <DanC_lap> yes, the HTML WG homepage should orient people who are interested to help
  312. # [23:27] <Philip> shepazu: Hmm, is that mainly because several SVG implementors already have canvas implementations (and hence it's useful to be compatible with those implementations)? Or is it because it's the most well-specified 2D graphics API (since most other APIs are just a single library and don't care about interoperability)? or something else?
  313. # [23:27] <jgraham> After a while you just encounter the paradox of choice
  314. # [23:27] <anne> i'm also subscribed to all html lists though the s/n ratio is still best on whatwg@whatwg.org :(
  315. # [23:27] <Sander> For what it's worth, as an only minutely involved participant, I find the many lists confusing, and if/when I have feedback on <canvas>, I'll likely just send it to the main list, except if I remember the existence of the new list, then I'll send it to the whatwg.
  316. # [23:28] <shepazu> Philip, the former... it's easiest to go with the flow
  317. # [23:28] <Philip> shepazu: Okay, makes sense
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  322. # [23:52] * Joins: ed (ed@125.255.47.56)
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  325. # Session Close: Fri Feb 15 00:00:00 2008

The end :)