/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-02-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:42] <ChrisWilson> Wow, chatty around here.
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  9. # [01:03] <mjs> hey ChrisWilson
  10. # [01:03] <ChrisWilson> hey Maciej
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  13. # [01:05] * Hixie tries to find a solution to the <figure> <legend> impasse
  14. # [01:07] <jgraham> Hixie: what are the constraints again?
  15. # [01:08] * anne suggested <label> before
  16. # [01:09] <jgraham> Will label work outside forms / for AT?
  17. # [01:09] <anne> "ok everyone's homework now is to come up with a solution for <figure> that introduces a caption without introducing a new element, without using anything that can be mistaken for prose content, without breaking forms or outlines, with a good default presentation, and that is compatible with styliing in legacy UAs."
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  20. # [01:13] <anne> <h1> works
  21. # [01:14] <anne> (not in Firefox though, if they won't fix that bug...)
  22. # [01:15] <jgraham> <h1> seems unnecessarily ugly. Moreso than just specifying that the lat child of the <figure> is the caption, for example (and the default styling is wrong too)
  23. # [01:15] <Hixie> <label> doesn't work because it would make putting form controls in figure labels very annoying
  24. # [01:15] <jgraham> s/lat/last/
  25. # [01:16] <anne> <figure><p><img></p><p>caption</p></figure> wfm
  26. # [01:16] <Hixie> <h1>-<h6> doesn't work because it breaks the outlining algorithm, and <h1>-<h5> has bad styling for it
  27. # [01:16] <anne> outlining algorithm special cases <blockquote> already, could do the same for <figure>
  28. # [01:16] <Hixie> anne: but then you are forced to put the caption in a defined place, and you can't easily put multiple paragraphs into a figure
  29. # [01:17] <anne> true
  30. # [01:17] <jgraham> Hixie: Well CSS should solve layout issues :-p
  31. # [01:17] <Hixie> i guess we could use <h6> and hard-code figures into the outlining
  32. # [01:17] <Hixie> jgraham: i meant in the markup, not in the layout
  33. # [01:18] <jgraham> I'm not sure why it's problem if the markup has to be in a certain order
  34. # [01:18] <Hixie> true
  35. # [01:18] <Hixie> the alternative of course is <figure> <legend><span class="legend">...</span></legend> ... </figure>
  36. # [01:19] <Hixie> with css for figure > legend, figure > .legend
  37. # [01:19] <Hixie> which works pretty well both now and in the figure
  38. # [01:19] <Hixie> future even
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  40. # [01:20] <jgraham> (fwiw, I think that I would prefer a new element over <h6> since using h6 doesn't make any conceptual sense for authors learning the language)
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  43. # [01:20] <Hixie> yeah i don't like h6
  44. # [01:20] <Hixie> a 14th element for making titles is so not an option
  45. # [01:21] <anne> jgraham, that also applies to the current usage of h1
  46. # [01:21] <anne> <dt> doesn't work in IE
  47. # [01:21] <anne> it simply ignores the end tag
  48. # [01:21] <jgraham> anne: You mean for headings? I think that makes some sense
  49. # [01:22] <jgraham> <h1> that is
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  52. # [01:23] <anne> <p><b> :)
  53. # [01:24] <anne> or <i> might be better...
  54. # [01:26] <jgraham> <p><b> could be mistaken for prose content
  55. # [01:29] <jgraham> <figure aria-describedby="anyotherelementonthepage"> - see no need for a caption at all ;)
  56. # [01:31] <anne> <figure><p role=caption>....</p></figure> ftw
  57. # [01:33] <Hixie> once a browser implements something like that, let me know
  58. # [01:35] * jgraham wonders if Firefox + Orca counts
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  60. # [02:21] <Hixie> hmmm
  61. # [02:21] <Hixie> we could use <header>
  62. # [02:21] <Hixie> <figure> <header> ... </header> ... </figure>
  63. # [02:21] <Hixie> any opinions?
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  65. # [02:24] * Philip hears that WebKit now supports canvas getImageData
  66. # [02:26] <jgraham> Well header doesn't seem much like a synonym to caption to me, so I don't really like it, but I can't see an immediate reason it won't work
  67. # [02:37] <Hixie> oh wait, can't use it for the same reason as <p>.
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  88. # [09:21] <hsivonen> can someone remind me what the problem with <legend> was?
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  90. # [09:31] <mjs> hsivonen: Opera, Firefox and Safari (current versions) will all completely drop it from the DOM and only leave its contents
  91. # [09:31] <mjs> (inside <figure> as opposed to <fieldset>)
  92. # [09:31] <mjs> IE will leave an empty element named "legend" before and an empty one named "/legend" after
  93. # [09:31] <mjs> at least, that is what I found last I tested this
  94. # [09:35] <hsivonen> mjs: ok. that's bad
  95. # [09:35] <mjs> hsivonen: yeah, that's why I raised it as an issue
  96. # [09:36] <mjs> I think I described this in some detail when I started the public-html thread about it a while back
  97. # [09:36] <mjs> honestly I think the least technically risky solution is to just add a new element
  98. # [09:36] <mjs> (same issue for <details> as <figure>)
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  100. # [09:49] <Hixie> i really don't want a new element
  101. # [09:49] <Hixie> we have on the order of 10 elements for headings and labels already
  102. # [09:49] <Hixie> can't we just do <legend><span class="legend">...</span></legend> for now?
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  124. # [13:15] <jgraham__> Doesn't the <legend><span class="legend"> thing require that we are able to change parsing of <legend> outside fieldset at some point? The fact that all browsers do something consistent and odd here suggests the oddness may be needed for compatibility
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  129. # [13:18] <anne> It does require that. Note that currently browsers also drop <tr>, <td>, etc. outside <table>
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  143. # [14:09] * Topic is 'HTML WG teleconference 7 Feb 17:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
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  175. # [21:12] <Hixie> jgraham: the spec already requires that
  176. # [21:17] <jgraham> The legend thing? I'm nervous about making features depend on aspects of the parsing algorithm that have no significant deployment
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  193. # [23:33] <Hixie> jgraham: opera does the html5 thing with legend and i haven't heard of any problems
  194. # [23:33] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.createElement('figure')%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Ctitle%3ETitle%3C%2Ftitle%3E%3Cp%3E...%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3Cfigure%3E%0D%0A%20%3Clegend%3Efigure1%3C%2Flegend%3E%0D%0A%20content1%0D%0A%3C%2Ffigure%3E%0D%0A%3Cfieldset%3E%0D%0A%20...%0D%0A%20%3Cfigure%3E%0D%0A%20%20%3Clegend%3Efigure2%3C%2Flegend%3E%0D%0A%20%20content2%0D%0A%20%3C%2Ffigure%3E%0D%0A%20...%0D%0A%3C%2Ffieldset%3E
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  196. # [23:55] <zcorpan> Hixie: legend outside fieldset is void in opera
  197. # Session Close: Sun Feb 24 00:00:00 2008

The end :)