/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-03-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 28 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: timbl (timbl@72.93.213.130)
  4. # [00:04] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.72)
  5. # [00:04] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.97)
  6. # [00:05] <ChrisWilson> Hmm. Only one on phone.
  7. # [00:07] <anne> Regrets for me. I'm in the CSS WG meeting and have lost track of time (zones) :)
  8. # [00:07] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson - I'm calling in now
  9. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, start meeting
  10. # [00:10] * trackbot-ng HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  11. # [00:10] * trackbot-ng is starting a teleconference
  12. # [00:10] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  13. # [00:10] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-html-wg-irc
  14. # [00:10] <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
  15. # [00:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot-ng
  16. # [00:10] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  17. # [00:10] <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be HTML
  18. # [00:10] <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng, I see HTML_WG()7:00PM already started
  19. # [00:10] <trackbot-ng> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  20. # [00:10] <trackbot-ng> Date: 27 March 2008
  21. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  22. # [00:10] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
  23. # [00:10] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  24. # [00:11] <MikeSmith> Laura - you calling in?
  25. # [00:11] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, IPCaller is MikeSmith
  26. # [00:11] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  27. # [00:12] <Laura> Yeah. I'll call in.
  28. # [00:12] <MikeSmith> OK
  29. # [00:13] <Zakim> + +1.715.398.aaaa
  30. # [00:13] <Zakim> - +1.715.398.aaaa
  31. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status?
  32. # [00:14] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 17 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Lachlan, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian, David
  33. # [00:14] <ChrisWilson> working thru action items pending review:
  34. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> scribenick: MikeSmith
  35. # [00:14] <ChrisWilson> action-50: separate email list
  36. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  37. # [00:14] <Zakim> + +1.715.398.aabb
  38. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> action-50?
  39. # [00:14] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-50
  40. # [00:14] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-50 -- Dan Connolly to investigate separate mailing list on cavas/2d-graphics API with Doug S. and Chris W. -- due 2008-02-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  41. # [00:14] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/50
  42. # [00:15] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.97) (Ping timeout)
  43. # [00:15] <Zakim> - +1.715.398.aabb
  44. # [00:15] <MikeSmith> Zakim, +1.715.398.aabb is Laura
  45. # [00:15] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named '+1.715.398.aabb'
  46. # [00:15] <ChrisWilson> close action-50
  47. # [00:15] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-50.
  48. # [00:15] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-50 Investigate separate mailing list on cavas/2d-graphics API with Doug S. and Chris W. closed
  49. # [00:16] <ChrisWilson> (list has been created)
  50. # [00:16] <ChrisWilson> action-52?
  51. # [00:16] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-52
  52. # [00:16] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-52 -- Anne van Kesteren to bring summary of where the Forms TF is and recommendation for action to HTML WG -- due 2008-02-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  53. # [00:16] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/52
  54. # [00:16] <Zakim> + +1.715.398.aacc
  55. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> Zakim, +1.715.398.aacc is Laura
  56. # [00:16] <Zakim> +Laura; got it
  57. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  58. # [00:16] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  59. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : there has been no follow-up to anne's summary e-mail
  60. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  61. # [00:17] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  62. # [00:17] <ChrisWilson> (that is, no further emails since the charter discussion)
  63. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> ... his recommendation is that if nothing has happened by July 2008, then we just revert to the HTML WG owns forms in HTML and the Forms WG owns forms as a standalone
  64. # [00:18] <ChrisWilson> This seems reasonable to all on the call
  65. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : So I think his recommended course of action is good.
  66. # [00:19] <ChrisWilson> close action-52
  67. # [00:19] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-52.
  68. # [00:19] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-52 Bring summary of where the Forms TF is and recommendation for action to HTML WG closed
  69. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  70. # [00:19] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  71. # [00:19] <ChrisWilson> action-53?
  72. # [00:19] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-53
  73. # [00:19] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-53 -- Dan Connolly to check for offline api stuff in WebAPI proposed charter -- due 2008-02-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  74. # [00:19] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/53
  75. # [00:19] <anne> FWIW, Ian Hickson would like explicit consent from the Forms WG that they're ok with us working on forms again, as I understand it.
  76. # [00:19] <Hixie> i don't mind
  77. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  78. # [00:19] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  79. # [00:19] <Hixie> i just want to make sure that i don't start integrating wf2 into html5 only later to be told that it needs to all be undone and turned into xforms
  80. # [00:20] <Hixie> if the group decides that wf2 is fine and we're not going to try to use xforms, that works too
  81. # [00:20] <Hixie> (the group = htmlwg)
  82. # [00:20] <anne> k
  83. # [00:20] <ChrisWilson> action: Chris Wilson to follow up with Forms WG to make sure they understand this plan of action by 5/1/2008
  84. # [00:20] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  85. # [00:20] * RRSAgent records action 1
  86. # [00:20] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-56 - Wilson to follow up with Forms WG to make sure they understand this plan of action by 5/1/2008 [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-04-03].
  87. # [00:21] <ChrisWilson> noted. I'll make sure that we follow up with them.
  88. # [00:22] <ChrisWilson> we are trying to work together here, but we do want to eventually ship html5. With forms.
  89. # [00:23] <Hixie> indeed
  90. # [00:23] <Hixie> certainly, since they are forms experts, their input can only make the spec better
  91. # [00:23] <Hixie> it is unfortunate that they have not been forthcoming with feedback so far
  92. # [00:23] <ChrisWilson> Mike: not going to have mention of offline apps in webapi charter
  93. # [00:25] <ChrisWilson> I want this ot be discussed in the hypertext cg, so I'm keeping the action pending review.
  94. # [00:25] <ChrisWilson> action-54?
  95. # [00:25] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-54
  96. # [00:25] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-54 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-04-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  97. # [00:25] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  98. # [00:27] <ChrisWilson> Waiting on input from PF group. Reopened, moved to 2 weeks from today.
  99. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  100. # [00:28] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  101. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  102. # [00:28] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  103. # [00:28] <ChrisWilson> can't seem to re-open the action, it stays as pending review. Oh well.
  104. # [00:29] <ChrisWilson> 3
  105. # [00:29] <ChrisWilson> whoops.
  106. # [00:29] <ChrisWilson> overdue action items: large number on Dan, moving them to next week.
  107. # [00:30] <ChrisWilson> action-8?
  108. # [00:30] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-8
  109. # [00:30] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-8 -- Michael Cooper to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN
  110. # [00:30] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/8
  111. # [00:30] <ChrisWilson> I believe this is resolved, but needs a pointer to the spec.
  112. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  113. # [00:31] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  114. # [00:31] <ChrisWilson> Gregory isn't around, so skipping action-23
  115. # [00:31] <ChrisWilson> action-40?
  116. # [00:31] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-40
  117. # [00:31] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-40 -- Michael(tm) Smith to add links on HTML WG home page to mechanism for watching changes to the HTML5 spec -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN
  118. # [00:31] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/40
  119. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  120. # [00:31] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  121. # [00:32] <MikeSmith> action-40?
  122. # [00:32] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-40
  123. # [00:32] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-40 -- Michael(tm) Smith to add links on HTML WG home page to mechanism for watching changes to the HTML5 spec -- due 2008-04-03 -- OPEN
  124. # [00:32] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/40
  125. # [00:33] <ChrisWilson> motion to adjourn?
  126. # [00:33] <ChrisWilson> any new business from IRC?
  127. # [00:33] <ChrisWilson> no objections, ADJOURNED
  128. # [00:33] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  129. # [00:33] <Zakim> -Laura
  130. # [00:33] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  131. # [00:33] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has ended
  132. # [00:33] <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], MikeSmith, +1.715.398.aaaa, +1.715.398.aabb, Laura
  133. # [00:34] <ChrisWilson> Whoops, Microsoft was me
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  138. # [00:48] <gsnedders> Hi Mr Microsoft!
  139. # [00:48] <gsnedders> :P
  140. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, end meeting
  141. # [00:49] * trackbot-ng is ending a teleconference
  142. # [00:49] <trackbot-ng> Zakim, list attendees
  143. # [00:49] <Zakim> sorry, trackbot-ng, I don't know what conference this is
  144. # [00:49] <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  145. # [00:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-html-wg-minutes.html trackbot-ng
  146. # [00:49] <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, bye
  147. # [00:49] <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-html-wg-actions.rdf :
  148. # [00:49] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Chris Wilson to follow up with Forms WG to make sure they understand this plan of action by 5/1/2008 [1]
  149. # [00:49] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-html-wg-irc#T23-17-47
  150. # [00:49] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  151. # [00:50] * gsnedders guesses his comments shouldn't be there (he thought minutes stopped when adjourned)
  152. # [00:50] * gsnedders is n00b
  153. # [00:55] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - no problem. minutes usually have to be trimmed anyway
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  157. # [01:24] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: normally of more useful comments, though :) (admittedly, I'm often the culprit)
  158. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - btw, you working on Habari?
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  180. # [08:10] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2008JanMar/0189.html
  181. # [08:10] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Mar/0097.html
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  183. # [08:30] <Lachy> oh, so the forms wg is continuing to develop a forms language that is supposed to be compatible with HTML, yet they haven't been actively discussing any of it with the HTMLWG or Forms TF?
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  186. # [08:34] <hsivonen> moreover, it seems that the forms tf is inventing yet another forms language because WF2 is Not Invented There and calling the result XForms in the name
  187. # [08:34] <hsivonen> s/tf/wg/
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  195. # [09:36] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: yeah, I'm working on a fare amount of stuff targeted at Habari Core
  196. # [09:36] <gsnedders> and other stuff not targeted at core, but plugins
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  199. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - did you say you are actively following the httpbis discussions?
  200. # [10:39] <mjs> what is Habari?
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  204. # [10:48] <hsivonen> mjs: Habari is supposed to be to WordPress what WordPress was to MovableType. or something like that
  205. # [10:48] <mjs> WordPress costs money now?
  206. # [10:48] <hsivonen> mjs: no, but it sucks in other ways
  207. # [10:49] <mjs> certainly I would appreciate a blogging platform that fixed things like the broken pseudo-XML that WordPress likes to send
  208. # [10:49] <mjs> or the constant security holes
  209. # [10:49] <mjs> or the shitty performance under load
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  212. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> mjs - one of Habari's features is that it's all in HTML
  213. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> sans pseudo-XML
  214. # [10:53] <hsivonen> how do I select the grandparent in XPath? parent::parent::* throws an exception
  215. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> but I suspect it might have the same performance under load as Wordpress
  216. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> since it used mysql too by default
  217. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> I think it has sql lite as an option
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  220. # [11:09] <hsivonen> hmm. ../../ seems to work but parent::parent:: doesn't. hmm.
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  230. # [11:54] <heycam> hsivonen, parent::*/parent::* (or parent::node()/parent::node() if they're not necessarily elements) if you want to use the axes
  231. # [11:57] <hsivonen> heycam: thank you. XPath isn't exactly intuitive
  232. # [11:57] <heycam> :)
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  272. # [18:26] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I have a vague idea of what's going on in httpbis, but I'm turning off more and more
  273. # [18:27] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: yeah, it supports both MySQL and SQLite. Hopefully other DBs coming soon
  274. # [18:27] <gsnedders> as for all those of you mentioning XML (i.e., mjs and MikeSmith), see http://gsnedders.com/making-habari-use-xhtml
  275. # [18:29] <mjs> gsnedders: I'm more interested in proper HTML serialization
  276. # [18:29] <mjs> for the webkit blog
  277. # [18:30] <mjs> at some point though we need to move it to HTML5
  278. # [18:30] <mjs> (including tasteful use of sectioning elements etc)
  279. # [18:30] <gsnedders> mjs: if the input is set as HTML, it should always go through an HTML parser, once the XHTML stuff is written and unbranched
  280. # [18:31] <mjs> gsnedders: sorry, not following
  281. # [18:31] <mjs> my mention of XML was basically along the lines of "WordPress sucks for sending broken pseudo-XML"
  282. # [18:31] <mjs> what I want out of a blogging platform is correct and clean-looking HTML
  283. # [18:31] <gsnedders> mjs: once the XHTML stuff is written, the default will be HTML input, and that will always pass through a parser, even if it is just serialised back to HTML
  284. # [18:32] <mjs> gsnedders: so it will try to round-trip user markup input to fix errors?
  285. # [18:33] <gsnedders> mjs: with both HTML input and output? it's just a nice side-affect of doing other stuff (like autogenerating paragraphs and line breaks)
  286. # [18:34] <mjs> gsnedders: ok, keep in mind, I know absolutely nothing about Habari except that someone described it as sort of doing what WordPress does but better
  287. # [18:34] <mjs> gsnedders: so I am not really following a thing you are saying, because you seem to be assuming knowledge of Habari featureset/internals
  288. # [18:34] <mjs> gsnedders: (that or I am exceptionally slow)
  289. # [18:35] <gsnedders> mjs: you're exceptionally slow :)
  290. # [18:35] <gsnedders> (or I'm really, really, really bad at explaining things)
  291. # [18:35] <Philip> Is it like yet another blog thing?
  292. # [18:35] <gsnedders> Philip: yes
  293. # [18:35] <Philip> but betterer than all the others?
  294. # [18:36] <gsnedders> it depends what you want a blog thing to do :)
  295. # [18:36] <gsnedders> mjs: http://www.blogkazani.com/yazi/interview-with-habari-developers — that goes into detail about why Habari exists, and why a whole load of us left WP
  296. # [18:36] <Philip> I want a blog thing to make me advertisting money, because that's what they're for
  297. # [18:38] <mjs> gsnedders: I'm psyched at the browser used for the screenshot there :-)
  298. # [18:38] <gsnedders> Philip: if only we could just install software for getting money :P
  299. # [18:38] <gsnedders> mjs: Not bias, at all, are you? :)
  300. # [18:39] <gsnedders> it actually looks totally different now, though
  301. # [18:39] <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.com/leaving-wordpress explains why I moved to Habari, FWIW
  302. # [18:40] <gsnedders> (from WP)
  303. # [18:40] <gsnedders> (mainly due to my feelings about WP, and how good most the competition is)
  304. # [18:40] <gsnedders> (Habari is the one that sucked the least)
  305. # [18:41] <gsnedders> mjs: to totally over-simplify what I was trying to say: with HTML input and output, it will round-trip the HTML.
  306. # [18:43] <beowulf> gsnedders: the line height on your weblog is quite tight
  307. # [18:43] <gsnedders> beowulf: it's the default line-height
  308. # [18:48] <beowulf> so it is
  309. # [18:49] <Philip> gsnedders: The font is ugly and unantialiased
  310. # [18:49] <gsnedders> Philip: peh. silly browsers :P
  311. # [18:50] <Philip> gsnedders: It's ugly in multiple browsers
  312. # [18:50] <gsnedders> Philip: silly OS. :P
  313. # [18:50] * beowulf wonders if he's being mocked here
  314. # [18:50] <Philip> (For some reason there's a couple of fonts that don't get antialiased for me on Linux)
  315. # [18:50] <Philip> (so I hate websites that use those fonts)
  316. # [18:51] <beowulf> what are the names of these typefaces, so we can scourge them?
  317. # [18:51] <beowulf> in public
  318. # [18:51] <Philip> I've never got around to actually finding which ones they are
  319. # [18:52] <gsnedders> my website has so many fallbacks for obscure fonts I can't guess :P
  320. # [18:52] <beowulf> well gsnedders is using either Myriad or Lucida
  321. # [18:53] <gsnedders> font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', 'Lucida Sans', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; for most
  322. # [18:53] <gsnedders> and for the titles: 'Myriad Pro', then the above list
  323. # [18:54] <beowulf> Helvetica down there just in case people don't have the others? :)
  324. # [18:54] <gsnedders> beowulf: yeah
  325. # [18:56] <Philip> Why not just say "sans-serif" for people who don't have the obvious ones?
  326. # [18:56] <Philip> I like my sans-serif much better than Arial :-)
  327. # [18:57] <gsnedders> Philip: Helvetica and Arial are both fairly similar to Lucida Grande, though
  328. # [18:57] * beowulf chokes
  329. # [18:58] <Philip> Why would you want to limit it to similar fonts?
  330. # [18:58] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  331. # [18:58] <gsnedders> Philip: for the very reason of specifying a font at all
  332. # [18:58] <Philip> It ought to just look nice; it doesn't have to look as similar as possible to everyone
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  334. # [19:00] <gsnedders> Philip: surely you always choose a font that looks nice?
  335. # [19:02] <Philip> You could choose multiple different fonts that each look nice in their own way, and so don't choose e.g. Arial since it's boring and yucky
  336. # [19:02] <Philip> (and when you can't think of any other nice fonts, then fall back on sans-serif because maybe the user has chosen something adequately nice for that)
  337. # [19:02] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Ping timeout)
  338. # [19:03] * gsnedders doubts it is one of Helvetica/Arial causing the issue
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  366. # Session Close: Sat Mar 29 00:00:00 2008

The end :)