/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-04-10 / end

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  67. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> interesting to see a posting from an actual Microsoft IE developer on the public-html-comments list
  68. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/mid/7AD436E4270DD54A94238001769C2227011DAFFE3BBB@DF-GRTDANE-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com
  69. # [09:02] <Hixie> yeah i was just thinking it's good to see microsoft people commenting on public lists
  70. # [09:02] <Hixie> i hope it's a trend that will continue
  71. # [09:02] <Hixie> what i'd really like is for there to be some sort of irc channel i can hang out on with them
  72. # [09:02] <Hixie> the same way that i have for all the other vendors
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  74. # [09:16] <mjs> maybe they have an MSN Chat channel
  75. # [09:16] <mjs> er
  76. # [09:16] <mjs> MSN Messenger
  77. # [09:16] <mjs> whatever it's called
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  85. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> I guess they might not know about our IRC channels
  86. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> I'll write to this guy at least
  87. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> Harley Rosnow
  88. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> given that he's actually taken the time to read and comment
  89. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> shows some degree of actually being interested in public discussion
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  163. # [15:46] <anne> I wonder what if we ever are going to give official WG responses on public-html-comments... Is someone going to dig through all the comments raised there and address them?
  164. # [15:46] <anne> (again)
  165. # [15:46] <anne> And making sure everyone in the WG "agrees" with the response?
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  172. # [16:26] <zcorpan> "Other developers for various reasons will choose not to use HTML5 technologies and will need to use ARIA to make their resources more accessible." -- http://www.w3.org/mid/20080410090653.BEK85991@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu
  173. # [16:26] <zcorpan> what about developers who for various reasons will choose to not use ARIA?
  174. # [16:28] <chaals> if they use HTML 5 in an HTML 5 capapble browser, well and good. If not, they are breaking accessibility.
  175. # [16:28] <anne> I think there is some underlying assumption that HTML5 won't work for the foreseeable future and ARIA will, which may be correct if you take Internet Explorer into account, though for the really simple HTML5 elements, such as <aside>, there is no such issue.
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  179. # [16:38] <DanC> yes, anne, the WG owes responses to public-html-comments. a best-effort up to last call, after which we must be exhaustive
  180. # [16:39] <DanC> I haven't looked for a while... let's see how many there are...
  181. # [16:39] <anne> I guess it is still manageable...
  182. # [16:41] <chaals> anne, I don't think the assumption is that HTML5 won't work for the forseeable future, just that in (for example) IE some useful stuff won't work *now* and people want to ship applications this month...
  183. # [16:43] <DanC> which assumption, chaals ? HTML5 works better than HTML 4, currently, in my experience.
  184. # [16:45] <chaals> DanC, the one that Anne postulated
  185. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> http://ajaxian.com/archives/gears-and-web-standards
  186. # [16:46] <chaals> e.g. <input type="date"> is great where it works, but lots of people are requiring date pickers that also work in IE6 ...
  187. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> http://gearsblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/gears-and-standards.html
  188. # [16:49] <anne> chaals, you could build those on top of <input type=date> as far as I can tell
  189. # [16:49] <anne> (in fact, libraries have been written to do exactly that)
  190. # [17:01] <chaals> sure, but those currently need ARIA to give the feedback to screenreaders.
  191. # [17:02] <chaals> *currently*. And while HTML is in draft, as a developer you take a bet on what is stable and what is just a strawman for now
  192. # [17:04] <DanC> what works is the html5lib parser, I guess. I'm kinda frustrated that we don't ship the parsing rules as its own spec
  193. # [17:04] <anne> If ARIA is still changing (and it was) and screen readers can still adapt they could support either syntax as far as I can tell
  194. # [17:05] * DanC noodles on a note about the parsing rules and the available testing materials
  195. # [17:22] <Philip> DanC: But the parser has to do things like execute scripts, which can do document.write and affect the future execution of the parser, and document.write depends on the definition of HTMLDocument, which depends on everything else, so it seems unclear how the parser could be specified in isolation, which seems to be an effective excuse(/reason) for not doing any work to split it out
  196. # [17:23] <chaals> anne, sure.
  197. # [17:23] <DanC> there are quite a few uses cases where the parser doesn't have to execute scripts
  198. # [17:24] <DanC> html5lib doesn't include a js interpreter, for example. somebody thought it was worth implementing. I use it now and again
  199. # [17:24] <Philip> There are some where the parser does have to, and we don't want to maintain two separate copies of the parser spec
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  201. # [17:24] <DanC> I think it's straightforward to split out the parser spec without maintaining two copies. yes, there would be cross-references and dependencies, but they'd be manageable.
  202. # [17:25] <DanC> but anyway... I've said all this before; what I think doesn't matter that much unless I'm doing the editing.
  203. # [17:25] <Philip> (<html manifest> is the other main case I can remember where the parser depends on specification of other stuff)
  204. # [17:25] <anne> If you have dependencies one of the two won't go faster to REC than the other...
  205. # [17:26] <DanC> it very well might, anne, as review of a more modular spec might be easier to manager
  206. # [17:26] <DanC> manage
  207. # [17:26] <anne> Philip, interfaces is another dependency
  208. # [17:27] <gsnedders> DanC: But if we have inter-dependancies, it doesn't reduce the amount to review upon completion, really, does it?
  209. # [17:27] <anne> DanC, I thought that being in REC required the spec upon which you're dependent to be no more than one level behind, which means PR...
  210. # [17:27] <gsnedders> DanC: as neither could move to REC before the other
  211. # [17:27] <gsnedders> (from my memory at least)
  212. # [17:27] <DanC> but both might reach REC sooner
  213. # [17:29] <DanC> and CR is a quite useful milestone
  214. # [17:30] <Philip> gsnedders: If reviewing a spec that's half the size requires less than half the effort (because it's easier to manage, less intimidating to reviewers, etc), then one spec split into two would be reviewed quicker, if the added effort of handling the inter-dependencies is less than the effort saved by smallness
  215. # [17:33] <Philip> (I have no idea how to quantify that realistically, though)
  216. # [17:35] * Philip is always slightly surprised at the ability to do evil things like http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3Ediv%7Bbackground%3Agreen%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.write('%3Cdi')%3C%2Fscript%3Ev%3EThis%20should%20be%20green
  217. # [17:35] <anne> Anyway, we still haven't solved the editor problem...
  218. # [17:40] <DanC> anne, is anybody playing with the svg/mathml parsing stuff in html5lib? do you know?
  219. # [17:40] * DanC still hasn't studied the bifurcated content model changes
  220. # [17:41] <anne> I think the plan is to ship a interim release of html5lib and after that integrate MathML/SVG and create lots of tests for them.
  221. # [17:41] <anne> jgraham_ is working on the interim release
  222. # [17:41] <Philip> As far as I'm aware, everyone is trying to match the spec just before the namespace changes, before adding all the new stuff
  223. # [17:42] <Philip> (where "everyone" means the html5lib people that I've heard, and (I think) hsivonen, and me (when I get around to working on my parser again))
  224. # [18:07] * gsnedders has other things to do at the moment, so he won't be working on it in the short term
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  258. # [22:50] <hsivonen> Philip: I already shipped the "match spec before MathML and SVG" release
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  261. # [23:18] <anne> http://alexlittle.net/blog/2008/04/10/wai-aria/
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  263. # [23:31] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/10-minutes.html#item04
  264. # [23:35] <anne> Not entirely clear what's going on, now I have read it...
  265. # [23:38] <Hixie> i rarely understand the tag meetings
  266. # [23:38] <Hixie> and that's not because of bad minuting -- i've been in them and not understood them
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  268. # Session Close: Fri Apr 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)