/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-04-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 18 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  6. # [00:41] <DanC> closed ACTION-54
  7. # [00:41] <DanC> close ACTION-54
  8. # [00:41] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-54.
  9. # [00:41] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-54 Work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements closed
  10. # [00:43] <DanC> action-29?
  11. # [00:43] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-29
  12. # [00:43] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2008-05-01 -- OPEN
  13. # [00:43] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
  14. # [00:43] <DanC> hmm... I think I lost track of the internal discussion on that one
  15. # [00:44] <DanC> should have brought it up when the authoring guide came up on the agenda today, perhpas
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  17. # [01:23] <jgraham_> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AltSurvey <-- totally unfinished but I need sleep so it wasn't making incrementally more sense as the number of words increased
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  30. # [04:33] <MikeSmith> some excerpts from this week's TAG minutes...
  31. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> DaveO: maybe implicit namespace declarations... along with some tweaks to XML...
  32. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> ... would be the right approach, rather than having browser devs and the HTML WG be the gatekeepers of the future of the web
  33. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> [[
  34. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> DO: there's a constituency, led by Ian Hickson, who considers distributed extensibility a bug, not a feature; witness the design for integrating SVG and MathML into HTML
  35. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> ]]
  36. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> [[
  37. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> DaveO: there's a lot of SVG and MathML content; to say "never mind all that design/standardization; we're going to throw that out and make a new design"; I don't think that's a great way forward.
  38. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> ... the HTML 5 draft subsetted SVG and MathML
  39. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> ... maybe we just need to acknowledge the need to make namespaces simpler.
  40. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> ]]
  41. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> [[
  42. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> HT: this constinuency that can't abide namespaces... why is it that they can't?
  43. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> DC: I don't know; I don't share their opinion, but I know they're out there.
  44. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> ]]
  45. # [04:41] <MikeSmith> Maybe the TAG could benefit from having an actual representative from a browser vendor
  46. # [04:43] <Lachy> MikeSmith, do you have a link to the minutes?
  47. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> Lachy,
  48. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/17-tagmem-minutes.html
  49. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> more precisely:
  50. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/17-tagmem-minutes.html#item03
  51. # [04:48] <MikeSmith> Issue tagSoupIntegration-54
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  65. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> anne, mjs: can either of you think of any possible changes/refinements we might want to make to the HTML Design Principles document?
  66. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> anne: or to the HTML 5 Differences from HTML 4 document?
  67. # [08:26] <mjs> MikeSmith: well, we never did fully flesh out all the Principles
  68. # [08:26] <mjs> I don't know how much time I have for improving it
  69. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> mjs, OK. I ask because are basically now overdue as far the publishing heartbeat requirements goes
  70. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> publishing an update to the Principles doc would be useful
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  72. # [08:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i can have the spec itself ready to publish in about 5 minutes if we want to publish something
  73. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie, I think we do need to publish the spec. But I think along with publishing it will come an expectation that we also document the changes that have been made since we published the FPWD
  74. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> by documentating, I mean more than just providing an HTML diff
  75. # [08:40] <Hixie> well in that case
  76. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> but I reckon that's what we ought to do anyway
  77. # [08:40] <Hixie> someone better start documentin'
  78. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> heh
  79. # [08:41] <Hixie> and we'll be ready to publish in october!
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  81. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> I suspect the someone that will be documentin' is probably going to end up being me
  82. # [08:42] <Hixie> sorry to hear that
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  84. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie, I don't know if you ever saw this, but I had started a page to try to keep track of changes to the spec:
  85. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/HTML5/spec/FPWD/Changes
  86. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> which lasted about 5 minutes
  87. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> anyway, I guess I'll just need to knuckle down and start really getting it written up.
  88. # [08:54] <Hixie> i think we should probably give up on the changelog personally
  89. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> the changelog, yeah
  90. # [08:55] <mjs> MikeSmith: could you extract a log of changes out of the twitter feed of spec commits?
  91. # [08:55] <mjs> I guess that probably would not be specific enough
  92. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, not specific enough
  93. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> even looking at the diffs for the commits in isolation doesn't help much
  94. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> need to look at them in the actual context of the document
  95. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> but I think starting from having an HTML diff of the whole document against the FPWD
  96. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> and walking through that
  97. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> to write up high-level descriptions of that changes
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  99. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> I think that could be do-able and wortwhile
  100. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> I really don't think we can get by with publishing a updated W3C draft of the spec without at least some accompanying document with a high-level description of the changes
  101. # [08:59] <Hixie> i've never let that stop me before in other wgs :-D
  102. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> heh
  103. # [09:00] <mjs> my experience in software is that it is *much* harder to document a large changeset after the fact than incrementally as the changes are made
  104. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> I guess the level of scrutiny and public interest in this work may be greater than some other work currently going on
  105. # [09:00] <mjs> but English may be different in this regard than C++
  106. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> mjs, no, I think it's basically the same
  107. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> which is why I suppose that, going forward, we should be trying to document the changes incrementally
  108. # [09:03] <MikeSmith> I will try to get some people to volunteer to help out with that
  109. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> the text of the section in the process doc on the hearbeat requirement reads in part:
  110. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> "It is important that a Working Group keep the Membership and public informed of its activity and progress... People cannot be expected to read several months of a group's mailing list archive to understand where the group stands."
  111. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/groups.html#three-month-rule
  112. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> If we were to try in good faith to adhere to the spirit of that and not the letter, it seems it would involve more than just documenting the changes to the spec during the last 3 months.
  113. # [09:07] <Hixie> and less, too
  114. # [09:07] <Hixie> i doubt most people care about half the changes
  115. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> yeah, I guess that's true
  116. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> and implementors are already following the changes to the spec that relate to what they're implementing
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  118. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> and it could also be argued that members of the group have been keeping the public informed through blog postings
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  124. # [09:17] <anne> making a summary of the changes should be doable, no?
  125. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> anne, yeah, doable
  126. # [09:21] <anne> I don't really agree with Hixie that people wouldn't care much. People love to read summaries
  127. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> yeah
  128. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> there's obviously a lot of interest in the work
  129. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> and people outside the group not unsurprisely don't want to have to read through everything on public-html to figure out what's going on
  130. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> or to read through all the commit messages and diffs
  131. # [09:27] <anne> html5-diff still needs some updates
  132. # [09:27] <anne> I suppose we could make the summary in that document...
  133. # [09:27] <Lachy> ah, I was supposed to have some authoring guidelines ready to publish by now. Sorry, I haven't. :-(
  134. # [09:27] <Hixie> anne: i'm saying people don't care about the editorial crap
  135. # [09:27] <Hixie> "oooh, he fixed three markup errors"
  136. # [09:30] <anne> oh, did someone suggest documenting that?
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  138. # [09:32] <Hixie> well that's what a complete changelog would be
  139. # [09:33] <Hixie> anyway i don't mind what level of detail we go to
  140. # [09:33] <Hixie> i just don't want it to be a huge delay for publication
  141. # [09:33] <Hixie> i _would_ like to publish something soon
  142. # [09:33] <Hixie> (like, before june)
  143. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> OK, well, let's plan to do that
  144. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> get an updated W3C draft of the spec out before publishing moratorium at end of May
  145. # [09:36] <Hixie> k
  146. # [09:36] <anne> wow, I love how the TAG says the ARIA hyphen approach has a high cost for authors
  147. # [09:36] <Hixie> can we get it done next week?
  148. # [09:36] <anne> Moratorium ends Apr 28
  149. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> yeah, the soonest we could get it done is after Apr 28
  150. # [09:38] <Hixie> oh there's a Moratorium on?
  151. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> how soon it gets done after that will be up to the chairs and the group to decide
  152. # [09:38] <Hixie> man there's so much process in the w3c
  153. # [09:38] <Hixie> sigh
  154. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> yeah, moratorium from today
  155. # [09:39] <mjs> you'd think with so many processes there would be enough concurrency to get things done
  156. # [09:40] <Hixie> well we should shoot for the 29th
  157. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> mjs, heh
  158. # [09:40] <Hixie> after the 29th i'll be out of touch for months
  159. # [09:40] <Hixie> because gta iv comes out then
  160. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> wow
  161. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> I reckon that will affect others as well
  162. # [09:41] <Hixie> that reminds me
  163. # [09:41] <Hixie> i should buy my ps3
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  165. # [09:42] <Lachy> Hixie, what's gta iv?
  166. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> GTA IV released, productivity of active HTML WG technical participants plummets
  167. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> maybe we can get somebody to graph it
  168. # [09:44] <Lachy> I googled it. What's so great about Grand Theft Auto IV?
  169. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> damn, I just now remembered that the IE team chat thing was earlier today
  170. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> no transcript yet
  171. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/default.mspx
  172. # [09:50] <Hixie> Lachy: the GTA series is the best video game series ever made
  173. # [09:50] <Hixie> Lachy: GTA IV is the best GTA ever made (one presumes. reviews and previews certainly point that way.)
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  175. # [09:54] <anne> Unfortunately the online aspect does not seem as fun as I'd hoped. Just minigames. No teaming up with people, forming a gang, etc.
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  199. # [13:12] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, yt?
  200. # [13:14] <Lachy> ... or is anyone else from the IE team in here?
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  225. # [17:00] <gsnedders> MikeSmith, Hixie: yeah, I'll vanish when my copy of GTA4 arrives :)
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  227. # [17:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: if the rumours about the size of the 360 only DLC are true, then I'd question getting a PS3 :)
  228. # [17:08] <Philip> GTA games aren't known for being particularly short, even if you haven't got extra bonus content :-)
  229. # [17:10] <gsnedders> Peh. I've completed the story line of GTA:SA in two weeks :)
  230. # [17:12] <Philip> Me too, and I was sick for half of that time period :-p
  231. # [17:12] <Lachy> gsnedders, did you spend that entire 2 weeks doing nothing bug eating, sleeping and playing GTA?
  232. # [17:12] <Philip> (The first half, in particular - it wasn't GTA's fault)
  233. # [17:12] <gsnedders> Lachy: a lot of sleeping. it was at the height of my CFS when I was sleeping 17 hours a day, and too tired to do anything that required thought when awake.
  234. # [17:13] <gsnedders> Lachy: So, yeah, I turned to GTA as something that didn't require thought
  235. # [17:14] <Lachy> what's CFS?
  236. # [17:14] <gsnedders> Lachy: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
  237. # [17:16] <Philip> I probably spent as much time in GTA:SA's flying school as I've spent in some other entire games
  238. # [17:16] <gsnedders> The flying school is rather hard.
  239. # [17:16] <Philip> (though mostly that was because I was rubbish and couldn't fly in a circle without missing or crashing or being too slow)
  240. # [17:16] <anne> gsnedders, what's extra on the 360?
  241. # [17:16] <gsnedders> My issue is I can't fly that accurately enough to exactly hit the small cornas
  242. # [17:17] * anne will get GTA4 on the 360
  243. # [17:17] <gsnedders> anne: 50 million USDs worth of DLC (or at least that's what MS paid for exclusivity). It's rumoured that it'll be similar to what GTA:VC/GTA:SA were to GTA3.
  244. # [17:17] <Philip> (I was playing on the PC, which is quite different to control but I'm not sure if it's easier or harder)
  245. # [17:17] <Lachy> am I going to be the only one here who's not going to get a copy of GTA4?
  246. # [17:17] <gsnedders> Philip: I expect harder
  247. # [17:18] <Philip> At least aiming for headshots with a mouse was trivial
  248. # [17:18] <Philip> Lachy: No
  249. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Philip: the auto-aiming is easy enough to use, though, on a console
  250. # [17:19] <Philip> since I haven't read anything about it that didn't make it sound boring (which is partly because I've read practically nothing about it), and I don't have a console and I don't like spending money
  251. # [17:19] <gsnedders> (I originally had GTA:SA on PS2, then got the entire GTA3 trilogy (for £35, when most games cost £30 alone) for Xbox for my 360
  252. # [17:20] <Philip> (You can get GTA+GTA2+GTA3+GTA:VC+GTA:SA on PC for £26 now, via Steam)
  253. # [17:20] <anne> gsnedders, interesting
  254. # [17:21] <Philip> gsnedders: Is Microsoft involved in spreading those rumours? :-)
  255. # [17:21] <gsnedders> Philip: Quite possibly. It broke in a second party magazine.
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  259. # [17:59] <Laura> Henri: Thanks agian for the Image Report feature in Validator.nu. You are brilliant.
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  265. # [19:00] <Philip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0626.html - seems kind of self-defeating if the way to indicate that a document is XHTML will necessarily make it ill-formed XHTML
  266. # [19:00] <Philip> On the other hand, I approve of all uses of <plaintext>
  267. # [19:04] <Lachy> I don't understand what the point of the xhtml attribute was in <plaintext xhtml>, when <plaintext> works just as well.
  268. # [19:05] <Philip> Existing pages might start with <plaintext>, so it can't be used to trigger new behaviour
  269. # [19:06] * anne doesn't understand the point of even having the discussion
  270. # [19:08] <Philip> As far as I can see, the primary use case for <plaintext> is to hide the adverts at the bottom of Geocities page
  271. # [19:12] <anne> no, the discussion about an XML mode for text/html
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  281. # [21:07] <Hixie> gsnedders: i've heard too many stories of dying xboxes to risk it
  282. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: ah. I was guessing that. I admit, mine has died once. I also must say I've never had any warranty return so painless.
  283. # [21:08] * Joins: rking3 (rking3@24.5.77.167)
  284. # [21:16] <Hixie> i dunno, i've had some pretty painless returns
  285. # [21:16] <Hixie> :-)
  286. # [21:16] <gsnedders> Most of mine have been too painful :(
  287. # [21:17] <gsnedders> And doing it all online without needing to spend hours dealing with call centres is nice.
  288. # [21:17] * gsnedders returns to writing his short story
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  308. # Session Close: Sat Apr 19 00:00:00 2008

The end :)