/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-04-24 / end

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  54. # [08:25] <aaronlev> hsivonen: i really wish xbl was a reality for the web today :)
  55. # [08:45] <Hixie> aaronlev: so tabindex=
  56. # [08:46] <Hixie> aaronlev: should i just remove it? limit it to <div> and <span>?
  57. # [08:46] <Hixie> here's what i've written so far in my e-mail on the topic:
  58. # [08:46] <Hixie> The concept of tabindex="" seems very flawed.
  59. # [08:46] <Hixie> - Tab order should be predictable, so it should be up to the user agent to
  60. # [08:46] <Hixie> determine the optimal tab order and present that.
  61. # [08:46] <Hixie> - Whether something is focusable should be a function of the GUI system in
  62. # [08:46] <Hixie> use, not the Web page.
  63. # [08:46] <Hixie> - Things that are focusable should be in the tab order, and things not in
  64. # [08:46] <Hixie> the tab order should not be focusable, otherwise there will be parts of
  65. # [08:46] <Hixie> the page that are only focusable to users of pointing devices.
  66. # [08:46] <Hixie> We could remove it altogether, but then there would be no way to make
  67. # [08:46] <Hixie> custom widgets focusable. On the long term this kind of thing should move
  68. # [08:46] <Hixie> to XBL, but we're not there yet.
  69. # [08:50] <anne> isn't it similar in nature to contenteditable ?
  70. # [08:50] <anne> and draggable, etc.
  71. # [08:51] <Hixie> \
  72. # [08:52] <Hixie> s
  73. # [08:52] <Hixie> orry
  74. # [08:52] <Hixie> cat.
  75. # [08:52] <Hixie> anyway.
  76. # [08:52] <Hixie> how so?
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  78. # [08:55] <anne> those makes things editable or draggable which is also quite generic, this makes things focusable
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  80. # [08:55] <anne> (i agree that the index part of tabindex does not have to be followed)
  81. # [08:56] <anne> (as i understand things tabindex is also very important for the ARIA stuff, so if you reject it you more or less reject ARIA too)
  82. # [08:57] <Hixie> it makes sense to me to make e.g. a header editable, and it makes sense to me to make e.g. a list item draggable
  83. # [08:57] <Hixie> why would you make either of them focusable?
  84. # [08:58] <Hixie> i agree that tabindex could make sense on custom widgets
  85. # [08:59] <anne> hmm ok
  86. # [09:00] <Hixie> i guess it would make sense if the attribute set "focusable yes" vs "focusable no"
  87. # [09:00] <Hixie> but it doesn't
  88. # [09:01] <Hixie> it says "focusable and tabbable with this position in the tab order", "focusable but not tabbable", and "default focusing and tabbing behaviour"
  89. # [09:01] <Hixie> there's no "not focusable nor tabbable", "focusable but not tabable" makes no sense, and there's no way to make something tabable without keeping the tab order up to the UA
  90. # [09:03] <anne> tabindex=0 ?
  91. # [09:04] <Hixie> doesn't that just put it first?
  92. # [09:04] <anne> and you mean s/without/while/ ?
  93. # [09:04] <Hixie> er yes
  94. # [09:04] <anne> I don't think tabindex=0 should influence order
  95. # [09:04] <anne> it doesn't in firefox
  96. # [09:05] <anne> (opera doesn't really have such a thing as tabbing order anyway)
  97. # [09:05] <Hixie> well that helps that then
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  106. # [09:39] <aaronlev> Hixie: see this table http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Key-navigable_custom_DHTML_widgets#The_solution:_changes_to_standard_behavior_of_tabindex
  107. # [09:40] <aaronlev> "focusable but not tabable" is crucial
  108. # [09:40] <aaronlev> because it's focusable via click or script
  109. # [09:40] <aaronlev> and that is how one can do complex container widgets like tree views, grids, etc. via script
  110. # [09:41] <mjs> aaronlev: a number of us just told Hixie the same on #whatwg
  111. # [09:41] <aaronlev> ok
  112. # [09:41] <mjs> aaronlev: btw I think the latest WebKit nightly should have the tabIndex extensions
  113. # [09:42] <aaronlev> mjs: cool
  114. # [09:42] <aaronlev> we can help test it
  115. # [09:42] <mjs> if you are interested in trying it
  116. # [09:42] <aaronlev> sure i'll have someone do that
  117. # [09:42] <aaronlev> probably david bolter (davidb) from ATRC
  118. # [09:43] <aaronlev> their grant is to help anyone implementing ARIA including Apple
  119. # [09:44] <mjs> our basic accessibility stuff should more or less mostly work on Windows now too
  120. # [09:44] <aaronlev> msaa support?
  121. # [09:45] <aaronlev> mjs ^
  122. # [09:45] <aaronlev> or what do you mean by basic a11y stuff
  123. # [09:45] <mjs> MSAA based on intrinsic roles and actions of elements
  124. # [09:45] <mjs> same as we do for VoiceOver
  125. # [09:46] <aaronlev> right ok
  126. # [09:46] <aaronlev> Great in fact
  127. # [09:46] <anne> mjs, do you pass http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/global-attributes/tabindex/ ?
  128. # [09:46] <aaronlev> how come the tabindex bug isn't marked fixed? https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7138
  129. # [09:47] <aaronlev> if it's checked in
  130. # [09:47] <anne> Firefox and Opera still fail some of those (after we fixed them)
  131. # [09:48] <mjs> anne: I am pretty sure Alice has looked at those tests
  132. # [09:48] <mjs> I think today she worked on making tabIndex parsing more strictly HTML5 compliant (though that doesn't seem to match what other browsers do so maybe should be changed in the spec)
  133. # [09:49] <anne> the spec should be changed a bit yes
  134. # [09:49] <mjs> aaronlev: I guess it is not committed yet, my mistake
  135. # [09:49] <anne> i think the tests now match what i think the spec should say :)
  136. # [09:49] <Hixie> i'm about to fix the spec
  137. # [09:49] <mjs> but should be soon since it has been reviewed
  138. # [09:50] <Hixie> just playing with the kittens first
  139. # [09:50] <aaronlev> ok for a minute there i thought you had a different procedure
  140. # [09:50] <aaronlev> Hixie: do the kittens tell you what to do in the spec?
  141. # [09:51] <Hixie> given their obsession with the keyboard, they seem to be just tryin to edit it directly
  142. # [09:51] <mjs> aaronlev: well, sometimes we do forget to close the bug, but I double-checked trac
  143. # [09:51] <aaronlev> pweeze dont hoit da webz
  144. # [09:52] <Hixie> please, they have better spelling than that :-P
  145. # [10:04] <Hixie> is tabindex=-2 the same as omitted tabindex or the same as tabindex=-1 ?
  146. # [10:05] <anne> all integers are valid tabindexes
  147. # [10:05] <anne> except maybe for +integer
  148. # [10:06] <anne> i should rephrase that, all integers optionally preceded with a hyphen
  149. # [10:07] <mjs> really?
  150. # [10:07] <mjs> is --1 valid?
  151. # [10:07] <mjs> that's an integer preceded by a hyphen
  152. # [10:07] <mjs> or did you not mean it in the math sense
  153. # [10:07] <mjs> (or how about -0?)
  154. # [10:08] <anne> -0 is fine
  155. # [10:08] <anne> -+1 or --1 prolly not
  156. # [10:08] <aaronlev> anything < 0 means the same thing no?
  157. # [10:08] <mjs> how are we defining "fine" now? what should be allowed or what browsers handle?
  158. # [10:09] <anne> both :)
  159. # [10:09] <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/global-attributes/tabindex/002.htm
  160. # [10:10] <Hixie> none of that really answers my question :-)
  161. # [10:11] <anne> -x where x is a positive integer is identical to -1, yes
  162. # [10:11] * anne hopes he got it right this time around :)
  163. # [10:12] <Hixie> ok
  164. # [10:12] <Hixie> and we want that to be conforming?
  165. # [10:12] <Hixie> as opposed to requiring it to be -1
  166. # [10:12] <anne> no opinion
  167. # [10:13] <anne> it might give authors slightly less to think about or slightly more, dunno :)
  168. # [10:14] <hsivonen> I recall someone stressing that it should be -1 not just any negative number
  169. # [10:14] <Hixie> me? :-)
  170. # [10:14] <hsivonen> I can't recall.
  171. # [10:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: have you tested if -2 and -1 do the same thing in IE?
  172. # [10:14] <Hixie> no
  173. # [10:15] <Hixie> wouldn't have asked if i had :-)
  174. # [10:16] * anne checks
  175. # [10:17] <anne> works the same
  176. # [10:17] <Hixie> thanks
  177. # [10:17] <anne> (IE6, but that shouldn't matter)
  178. # [10:18] * hsivonen finds http://blog.fawny.org/2005/08/22/tabindex/ by googling for 'negative tabindex'
  179. # [10:20] <hsivonen> anne: aside: which OpenID software are you using on your server? phpMyID?
  180. # [10:21] <anne> hsivonen, yes
  181. # [10:21] <hsivonen> thanks
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  184. # [10:23] <mjs> hsivonen: wow, that's a very old school approach to analyzing the issue
  185. # [10:24] <Hixie> as i said recently in some forum somewhere
  186. # [10:25] <Hixie> i often disagree with joe clark
  187. # [10:25] <hsivonen> mjs: the priorities in that blog post seem wrong to me
  188. # [10:25] <Hixie> they seem wrong to everyone here
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  196. # [10:55] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#tabindex
  197. # [10:58] <anne> i think it should also get activation behavior
  198. # [10:59] <anne> that is, if you hit enter or something click -> DOMActivate is dispatched
  199. # [11:00] <Hixie> does anyone do that?
  200. # [11:01] <anne> hmm, only Opera does it seems
  201. # [11:02] <Hixie> opera does it?
  202. # [11:02] <Hixie> neat
  203. # [11:02] <Hixie> send feedback to the list
  204. # [11:02] <Hixie> if we can get the other vendors on board, i'm happy to add it
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The end :)