/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-05-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 09 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  7. # [00:08] <sampablokuper> I'm getting a message "the conference is restricted at this time" while trying to dial in to Zakim.
  8. # [00:09] <Hixie> Zakim, this is html
  9. # [00:09] <Zakim> Hixie, I see HTML_WG()7:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be html".
  10. # [00:09] <Hixie> Zakim, this will be html
  11. # [00:09] <Zakim> ok, Hixie; I see HTML_WG()7:00PM scheduled to start in 54 minutes
  12. # [00:09] <Hixie> sampablokuper: it doesn't start for another 54 minutes
  13. # [00:10] <Hixie> sampablokuper: zakim keeps it restricted until about five minutes before it starts
  14. # [00:10] <sampablokuper> Hixie, thanks - I just realised I forgot to account for BST
  15. # [00:10] <sampablokuper> (British Summer Time)
  16. # [00:10] <Hixie> i'd rather all the meetings were on UTC myself
  17. # [00:10] <Hixie> but anyway
  18. # [00:11] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.198.184)
  19. # [00:11] <sampablokuper> Hixie, while you're hanging out here, can I ask you an off-topic question about XForms and Web Forms 2.0 ?
  20. # [00:11] * Joins: Navarr (navarr@76.240.62.110)
  21. # [00:11] <Hixie> ask away, brb. will reply when i return.
  22. # [00:12] * oedipus waves hellow to sampablokuper and is interested in anything to do with forms
  23. # [00:14] <Hixie> back
  24. # [00:14] <sampablokuper> Thanks (& hi, oedipus). It's a vague one: do you think XForms/WF2.0 will ever be able to replace the current HTML+JS+server-side-scripting-language+database model of web frameworks?
  25. # [00:14] <sampablokuper> Or am I totally missing the point?
  26. # [00:15] <Hixie> WF2 doesn't replace it
  27. # [00:15] <Hixie> it just extends it
  28. # [00:15] <Hixie> WF2 is like the rest of HTML5, just additional bits on HTML
  29. # [00:15] <Hixie> as for xforms, no, i don't think anything that's a complete replacement for html forms will ever replace html
  30. # [00:15] <Hixie> it's one of those classic "you can't get there from here" problems
  31. # [00:16] <Hixie> if you look at almost all successful technologies in the past, you find almost all of them are successful in a way that extended the previous technology
  32. # [00:16] <Hixie> the exceptions are things where the technology is just radically new
  33. # [00:16] <Hixie> so for example the web itself was totally new, there wasn't really anything like it at the time
  34. # [00:16] <sampablokuper> Thanks for your insights. I've been mulling over whether or not to use XForms for a new interface onto a dataset that's currently stored in XML.
  35. # [00:17] <Hixie> if you have the choice, i encourage you to use it
  36. # [00:17] <Hixie> it's much nicer than html forms
  37. # [00:18] <sampablokuper> I've been tempted to move the data into a database (it is somewhat relational data, after all) and build on that with RoR/Django/Symfony/whatever
  38. # [00:18] <sampablokuper> But wanted to learn more about XForms.
  39. # [00:18] <oedipus> sampablokuper, you might want to check: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Implementations
  40. # [00:19] <sampablokuper> Thanks oedipus, I'll check that out. Adriaan de Jonge has an interesting post here: http://blog.adriaandejonge.eu/2006/12/xforms-vs-ruby-on-rails.html
  41. # [00:19] <oedipus> as well as the test suite (you might need a plug-in depending on your browser) - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Test/XForms1.0/Edition3/front_html/XF103edTestSuite.html
  42. # [00:19] <oedipus> sampablokuper, thanks for the link -- will give a listen
  43. # [00:20] <oedipus> there's also the "xforms wikibook" - http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/XForms
  44. # [00:20] <sampablokuper> One of the problems I have with existing web frameworks is that they tend to have custom schema definitions. I (unlike some) actually rather like XSD.
  45. # [00:20] <oedipus> XForms Tutorial and Cookbook is the content of the xforms wikibook
  46. # [00:21] <oedipus> i like XSD, too, but no one's ever asked before...
  47. # [00:21] <sampablokuper> I've had a browse through the wikibook already - it's one of the better wikibooks :)
  48. # [00:21] <sampablokuper> Asked what?
  49. # [00:21] <oedipus> if i like XSD
  50. # [00:21] <sampablokuper> Ah.
  51. # [00:22] <oedipus> and you are right, it is one of the better wikibooks <grin>
  52. # [00:22] <sampablokuper> I thought you meant, "Asked if a mainstream web framework would consider using XSD as its schema language."
  53. # [00:22] <oedipus> that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish...
  54. # [00:22] <sampablokuper> I know it isn't a DB schema language, but it could surely be mapped, couldn't it?
  55. # [00:23] <sampablokuper> Or I could try using an XML database.
  56. # [00:23] <oedipus> i don't "see" why not
  57. # [00:23] <oedipus> yeah, and if you're using XML in, it makes sense to serve (at least) xhtml out
  58. # [00:23] <sampablokuper> Thing is, I feel that this is getting into non-standard web-dev territory.
  59. # [00:24] <sampablokuper> Perhaps that's just a function of the web-devs I've had contact with.
  60. # [00:24] <oedipus> depends upon whom you ask!
  61. # [00:24] <sampablokuper> Right.
  62. # [00:24] <sampablokuper> That's why I asked Hixie :)
  63. # [00:24] <oedipus> got it :)
  64. # [00:25] <Hixie> i don't know that i can give much more useful feedback
  65. # [00:25] <Hixie> if you have the option to use xforms, i think it's a good language to use
  66. # [00:25] <oedipus> sampablokuper, have you had a look at any of the XForms Transitional / XForms "Lite" work? i'll get some pointers
  67. # [00:25] <Hixie> but i think if you are writing for the web, as a client-side language there's little chance of it ever being widely available
  68. # [00:25] <Hixie> or widely used
  69. # [00:26] <sampablokuper> oedipus, no, I haven't yet. Thanks again.
  70. # [00:26] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.190) (Connection reset by peer)
  71. # [00:26] <sampablokuper> Hixie, the dataset I'm working with is to be transformed into hard-copy
  72. # [00:26] <sampablokuper> (typeset with Latex)
  73. # [00:27] <Hixie> ah
  74. # [00:27] <sampablokuper> and web copy (XHTML)
  75. # [00:27] <Hixie> if you're just talking about a server-side language, as opposed to what the web browser will see, then html/wf2 aren't really going to help
  76. # [00:27] <Hixie> as they are basically client-side technologies exclusively
  77. # [00:27] <sampablokuper> . It needs a user-friendly interface for staff editors. This is where XForms could come in.
  78. # [00:27] <Hixie> yeah
  79. # [00:28] <oedipus> for what it is worth, there is an xhtml to xforms converter in XSLT available from: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2006/xforms.xsl
  80. # [00:28] <Hixie> if you have a specific target audience with the ability to deploy software to them, it makes sense to me to use xforms
  81. # [00:28] <sampablokuper> oedipus, you are a bountiful source of bookmarks!
  82. # [00:29] * Joins: paullewis (paullewis@96.232.135.39)
  83. # [00:29] <sampablokuper> Hixie, that is the case, but ideally they wouldn't have to install anything new (beyond maybe a Firefox extension).
  84. # [00:29] <oedipus> XForms Transitional: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XForms-Transitional/
  85. # [00:29] <oedipus> XForms Transitional testbed: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XForms-Transitional/1/
  86. # [00:30] <oedipus> my personal web site started as my lynx bookmarks file, sampablokuper
  87. # [00:30] <sampablokuper> Currently, they are editing a (very) weird dialect of SGML using Emacs, with no validation until publication, so just about anything will be an improvement.
  88. # [00:30] <oedipus> a LONG time ago
  89. # [00:30] <sampablokuper> oedipus, have you thought of working for Mahalo? ;)
  90. # [00:30] <oedipus> lol
  91. # [00:31] <oedipus> "series of cross-platform experiments": http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XForms-Transitional/
  92. # [00:32] <oedipus> sampablokuper, i should have replied "mahalo, mahalo"
  93. # [00:33] <sampablokuper> :) I was going to ask if you know of any roughly Rails-like frameworks that generate XForms.
  94. # [00:33] <sampablokuper> But that's maybe a silly question.
  95. # [00:35] <oedipus> i've never used ROR itself - the AJAX needs ARIA!
  96. # [00:35] <sampablokuper> True enough about the Ajax.
  97. # [00:36] <sampablokuper> What I really like are two things: scaffolding and migrations.
  98. # [00:36] <oedipus> i can well understand that
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  103. # [00:40] * DanC heads out to drive kids to soccer practice and such...
  104. # [00:41] * Joins: sampablokuper (sampabloku@81.107.38.239)
  105. # [00:42] <oedipus> sampablokuper, you might find the following interesting reading: http://www.w3.org/2007/02/dmdwa-ws/Papers/jose-m-c-fonseca.html#sec-xforms
  106. # [00:42] <oedipus> stumbled across it not too long ago
  107. # [00:43] <sampablokuper> oedipus, thanks, sorry about disappearing there. My Macbook occasionally gives me a White Screen Of Death, and it just did so. Rebooting's the only solution I've found :(
  108. # [00:43] <oedipus> it's nice to know that i'm not the only one who has to constantly reboot his machine
  109. # [00:44] <oedipus> my problem is, when speech goes out, i can't really do anything put hit the "big red button" if there's no spare set of eyeballs around, but that always leaves me concerned for my hardware...
  110. # [00:45] * oedipus wonders if windows still "blue screens"
  111. # [00:45] * oedipus or did they change the color?
  112. # [00:45] <sampablokuper> For me it's kind of the opposite: no screen, no interaction for me (especially since the notorious IDT audio update wiped out my audio).
  113. # [00:45] <sampablokuper> Vista has blue screens,
  114. # [00:46] <sampablokuper> I see them sometimes :(
  115. # [00:46] <sampablokuper> The writing is impossibly tiny.
  116. # [00:46] <oedipus> yikes...
  117. # [00:46] <sampablokuper> Which text-to-speech software do you use?
  118. # [00:47] <sampablokuper> (If you don't mind me asking)
  119. # [00:47] <oedipus> depends... everything from JAWS for Windows to NVDA to Emacspeak -- depends upon the situation and machine -- the tts engine is either eSpeak or FreeTTS or eloquence or SAPI4/SAPI5
  120. # [00:48] <sampablokuper> I guess switching between them is a little like switching to a different desktop environment?
  121. # [00:49] <sampablokuper> You get *roughly* the same features, but perhaps accessed differently, or with different behaviours?
  122. # [00:49] <oedipus> yeah - every single one of them has a steep learning curve
  123. # [00:49] <sampablokuper> I feared as much,
  124. # [00:50] <sampablokuper> that's one reason I haven't learned to use one properly.
  125. # [00:50] <oedipus> emacspeak rocks, but if i used it only, i wouldn't be much good to the visually impaired computer users' group of new york city
  126. # [00:50] <sampablokuper> rofl
  127. # [00:50] <oedipus> i've been building a language module for eSpeak/Mbrola based on the existing latin model, and trying to develop 3 flavors: classical, medieval, and "new latin"
  128. # [00:51] <sampablokuper> "My fellow New Yorkers, ditch Word, use Emacs!"
  129. # [00:51] <oedipus> my problem is, as a trained medievalist i had a very good reading knowledge of ancient greek and latin, but never processed them aurally -- so it is a challange and a reward because without speech output, i'm functionally illiterate, as i don't have enough tactile sensitivity to read braille
  130. # [00:53] <sampablokuper> Sorry, I'm unclear - when you were training as a medievalist, did you use tts for the Latin & Greek?
  131. # [00:53] <oedipus> no, that was before i lost my sight
  132. # [00:53] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.70)
  133. # [00:53] <oedipus> but if i'm going to read greek or latin again, it's going to have to be aurally
  134. # [00:53] <sampablokuper> I understand. so now you have to interact with the languages through another medium,
  135. # [00:54] <sampablokuper> A contentious one, at that.
  136. # [00:54] <oedipus> yes, and even for those familiar (like french or spanish) sound very different when synthesized, although that is getting better
  137. # [00:54] <sampablokuper> I know there have been serious academic disagreeements about correct Latin & Greek pronunciations
  138. # [00:54] <oedipus> that's one of the problems i'm encountering in getting classicists to review my phoneme tables
  139. # [00:55] <sampablokuper> Soft "v"s or hard "v"s? :)
  140. # [00:55] <oedipus> right -- the same 2 camps who battle over hard c or soft c!
  141. # [00:57] <oedipus> still, the way i've ocasionally heard latin mangled on recordings for the blind, speech synethesis would allow me to read a word character by character if it wasn't immediately apparent to me what it meant
  142. # [00:57] <sampablokuper> Presumably you could switch between pronunciation settings?
  143. # [00:57] <oedipus> yeah - or use the lang extention mechanism for subtagging la and el
  144. # [00:58] <oedipus> "la-cl"
  145. # [00:58] <oedipus> "el-XX" - archaic? classical?
  146. # [00:59] <oedipus> so that there would be automatic language switching in respone to the subtags
  147. # [00:59] <oedipus> s/respone/response
  148. # [01:00] * oedipus needs to get a phone - almost time to call in
  149. # [01:00] <sampablokuper> That would be one way. ... Changing the topic slightly, at Ian Bicking's talk at Pycon - about HTML parsers for Python - someone in the audience complained bitterly about HTML's impact on visually-impaired users. Do you favour XHTML for this reason (or at all?)
  150. # [01:01] <oedipus> i think that the extensibility of XHTML can be leveraged for accessibility
  151. # [01:01] * sampablokuper needs to get some sleep - the meeting's an hour later than he thought (too late to stay up for tonight, with an early start tomorrow and several things to do before sleeping)
  152. # [01:02] * oedipus goodnight, fair prince ;)
  153. # [01:03] <sampablokuper> DanC, Hixie, my apologies - I'm not going to be able to attend this meeting. I'm reaching exhaustion point.
  154. # [01:03] <sampablokuper> oedipus, thanks, it's been a pleasure :)
  155. # [01:03] <Hixie> don't apologise to me :-)
  156. # [01:03] * oedipus er, sweet prince, etc. etc. etc.
  157. # [01:03] <Hixie> i don't even think we should _have_ these meetings :-)
  158. # [01:03] <Hixie> or rather, i don't think they should be made out to be the official meetings they are
  159. # [01:03] <Hixie> i have no problem with people meeting up to talk about action items, on irc, by phone, in person, whatever
  160. # [01:04] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.101)
  161. # [01:04] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has now started
  162. # [01:04] <sampablokuper> My apologies anyway, and thanks for the XForms discussion :) Goodnight all
  163. # [01:04] * Parts: sampablokuper (sampabloku@81.107.38.239)
  164. # [01:06] <ChrisWilson> zakim, phone?
  165. # [01:06] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisWilson.
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  167. # [01:07] <ChrisWilson> agenda on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  168. # [01:09] <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
  169. # [01:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  170. # [01:09] <ChrisWilson> zakim, what is the phone number?
  171. # [01:09] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisWilson.
  172. # [01:10] <ChrisWilson> first pending review item:
  173. # [01:10] <dsinger> zakim, list conferences
  174. # [01:10] <Zakim> I see HTML_WG()7:00PM, GA_SVGWG()6:30AM active
  175. # [01:10] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time is WAI_WCAG()3:00PM
  176. # [01:10] <ChrisWilson> zakim, this is html
  177. # [01:10] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, this was already HTML_WG()7:00PM
  178. # [01:10] <Zakim> ok, ChrisWilson; that matches HTML_WG()7:00PM
  179. # [01:10] <ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/43
  180. # [01:11] <ChrisWilson> closed
  181. # [01:11] <ChrisWilson> next item: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  182. # [01:11] <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
  183. # [01:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  184. # [01:15] <dsinger> zakim, what is the conference code?
  185. # [01:15] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dsinger
  186. # [01:16] <ChrisWilson> Laura, what do you think the next steps are on the ALT action item, since the draft was sent today?
  187. # [01:17] <ChrisWilson> next action in the meantime: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/55, ask TAG about tag soup measurement techniques
  188. # [01:17] <Laura> Chris: Input from the working group would be good.
  189. # [01:18] <Philip> "These studies are really nice, but they would be even nicer if we could confirm them from independent sources." - I've done various things to get similar statistics, like http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index - is that the kind of thing it's talking about?
  190. # [01:19] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.198.184) (Ping timeout)
  191. # [01:19] <ChrisWilson> (On phone: Miles, dsinger, gregory, myself)
  192. # [01:21] <ChrisWilson> philip, in our first discussion we were talking about ways to ask new questions like this. We do it internally, I'm sure other vendors do, but we as a WG want to ask questions and have them researched.
  193. # [01:21] <ChrisWilson> re-opened.
  194. # [01:22] <ChrisWilson> extended ALT issue (54) for group discussion on lsit.
  195. # [01:22] <ChrisWilson> er, list.
  196. # [01:22] <Philip> (Also http://philip.html5.org/data.html which is largely based on people just asking questions on IRC, and me being bored and having a while to look at them :-) )
  197. # [01:22] <ChrisWilson> on to overdue items...
  198. # [01:24] <ChrisWilson> sadly no Dan, so skip his and I will bug him personally.
  199. # [01:26] <ChrisWilson> Lachy, any progress on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34 (preparing the web developer's guide)?
  200. # [01:28] <ChrisWilson> Anne, I'm not sure I understand your action item on offline apps abstract? (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/58)
  201. # [01:28] <ChrisWilson> any new issues?
  202. # [01:29] <ChrisWilson> motion to adjourn
  203. # [01:29] <dsinger> sure
  204. # [01:29] <ChrisWilson> seconded, ADJOURN'
  205. # [01:29] <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
  206. # [01:29] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  207. # [01:29] <dsinger> bye
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  210. # [02:04] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, I started working on it again a little bit on wednesday, but no significant progress yet.
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  215. # [02:35] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has ended
  216. # [02:35] <Zakim> Attendees were
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  220. # [03:02] * trackbot-ng HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
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  222. # [03:20] <ddailey> <Hixie> man, nobody understands my sense of humour :-/ .... admitting that you have one is the first step
  223. # [03:21] <ddailey> smiles will follow with probabiliy > 0
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  286. # [11:44] <anne> in case mike(tm) reads this, I might be able to help
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  289. # [11:44] <anne> i had this plan of integrating the differences since last publication in html5-diff
  290. # [11:44] <anne> i haven't really gotten around to updating html5-diff yet though
  291. # [11:45] <anne> (my plan is far less ambitious than the one from mike though)
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  305. # [11:55] <Philip> There's only been four hundred commits since the last publication, so it can't be that hard to summarise
  306. # [11:57] <anne> is that including or excluding editorial changes?
  307. # [11:58] <anne> (either way it's indeed not that much)
  308. # [11:58] <Philip> It's just the number of SVN revisions
  309. # [11:59] <gsnedders> (so including)
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  311. # [12:22] <anne> MikeSmith, see logs, fwiw
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  313. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> anne: yep, read your comments about diff stuff
  314. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> thanks
  315. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> so let's plan to get something going at beginning of next week
  316. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> if that will work for you
  317. # [12:28] <anne> yeah, monday works
  318. # [12:29] <anne> got to go now
  319. # [12:29] <anne> touring Ireland with marcos
  320. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> anne: have fun
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  328. # [13:15] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: that sounds ambitious if you're intending to do it for all non-editorial changes; perhaps it's good to get a list of changes and cherry-pick interesting or important changes first?
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The end :)