/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-05-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 13 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <Lachy> The good thing about people repeating their arguments over and over again is that I can skip most of the thread, and still not miss anything :-)
  4. # [00:01] <ChrisWilson> hmm. Of course, it's quite cyclic when everyone presumes that everyone else is doing the same thing...
  5. # [00:02] <jgraham> ChrisWilson: To a good approximation everyone _is_ doing the same thing
  6. # [00:03] <jgraham> That's obvious from reading the replies
  7. # [00:04] <anne> I'm not sure when this was first raised, but it's been cyclic ever since... :(
  8. # [00:05] <anne> Some e-mails are also not read anymore... Hixie at one point proposed making alt mandatory and nobody replied to that. John F. didn't read mjs' e-mail at all, etc...
  9. # [00:08] <Hixie> yeah the utter lack of response to my e-mail suggesting that alt be made mandatory really made the mandatory-alt-attribute advocates lose a lot of credibility in my mind
  10. # [00:11] * jgraham waves to people reading the logs
  11. # [00:11] <Lachy> was that the one where you suggested importantimage?
  12. # [00:12] * Philip kind of liked that mandatory-alt suggestion, since it avoided at least some of the noalt problems (like how people would add noalt just to shut the validator up, and how noalt would work poorly in current UAs) without making all important images indistinguishable from lazy-author images
  13. # [00:12] <Hixie> Lachy: yes
  14. # [00:12] <Lachy> that's unbelievable. I thought they would have jumped at the chance to say yes to a proposal like that
  15. # [00:12] <Hixie> that's why they lost credibility
  16. # [00:13] <Philip> Maybe there was just too much email for them to follow everything
  17. # [00:13] <Hixie> i'm following everything
  18. # [00:13] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: It would be helpful if the list sent you an email when you are unsubscribed. I was wondering why I wasn't getting public-html mail :)
  19. # [00:13] <Philip> (For reference: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0073.html )
  20. # [00:13] <Hixie> if they werent so busy repeating themselves, there wouldn't be that much e-mail!
  21. # [00:14] <Philip> Hixie: But you're special, and nobody else can spend as much time on this as you do since they all have proper jobs :-)
  22. # [00:14] <Hixie> possibly, but reading the e-mails the editor sends seems like a basic thing to do
  23. # [00:15] <Hixie> as does not repeating oneself
  24. # [00:15] <Dashiva> Hixie: Well, there was that nice mail on May 1st about the editor's new clothes...
  25. # [00:15] <Philip> Ooh, did you go shopping?
  26. # [00:16] <anne> Dashiva, don't you get a reminder before you are unsubscribed?
  27. # [00:16] <Philip> Dashiva: Why were you unsubscribed?
  28. # [00:17] <Dashiva> Philip: I'm no longer in Opera's group, and since I'm summer interning for google, I can't join as invited expert, but I haven't started working at google yet, so I can't join their group :)
  29. # [00:17] <Hixie> Dashiva: yeah that e-mail is especially ironic now that mjs and bz are showing that the alt advocates are doing no research while they _are_ doing research and giving reasoning
  30. # [00:17] <Hixie> they meaning bz and mjs
  31. # [00:18] <mjs> but my research is worthless because I just tinkered with voiceover while they are *experts*
  32. # [00:18] <Dashiva> anne: I don't recall getting any reminder, no.
  33. # [00:21] <anne> Dashiva, if you were an Invited Expert and a year expired you should get a reminder. I'm not sure what should happen if you interned at Opera...
  34. # [00:22] <jgraham> Researching the KompoZer UI was pretty convincing that manatory alt can have a negative impact on authoring tools and may reduce the accessibility of the output they produce
  35. # [00:22] <Philip> mjs: Your research could be worthless because you just tinkered with VO instead of using it like a typical experienced used would use it (or watching such a user use it), regardless of the expertness of anybody else :-)
  36. # [00:22] <Dashiva> anne: I suppose it is a rather tiny edge case in practice :)
  37. # [00:24] <anne> I just disabled image support in my browser to see what the Web looks like
  38. # [00:24] <anne> so far all smileys in this chat are converted to "Image"
  39. # [00:24] * Philip has no idea how much mjs resembles a typical user - it could be very valid evidence
  40. # [00:25] <anne> next, on ongoing some image has alt with the name of the person on it...
  41. # [00:25] <anne> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/05/12/Blogging-News
  42. # [00:25] <mjs> Philip: I certainly put less weight on my anecdotal use than on a user study
  43. # [00:25] <mjs> Philip: but I put more weight on it than 0 value
  44. # [00:25] <mjs> I mean, I can usually tell if Windows apps have decent UIs despite being a Mac user 99% of the time
  45. # [00:26] <anne> on http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/esso-maps I see "[Technorati Tags]Tags:"
  46. # [00:26] <Philip> anne: Opera doesn't seem especially helpful with images disabled, e.g. <a href=...><img src=... alt=""></a> becomes invisible
  47. # [00:26] <jgraham> FWIW I use Thunderbird with images off as a feed reader and the alt text is almost uniformly awful
  48. # [00:27] * Quits: tH (Rob@77.86.4.188) (Quit: updating chatzilla)
  49. # [00:27] <jgraham> s/the alt text/the alt text in typical blog posts/
  50. # [00:27] <anne> Philip, and it shouldn't?
  51. # [00:28] <Philip> anne: A linked image is clearly interactive, not just decorative, so interaction should be supported regardless of the alt value, to avoid preventing users navigating bogus-alted sites
  52. # [00:28] <jgraham> e.g. from Tim Bray again: "Wet tulips with forget-me-nots Wet tulips with forget-me-nots Wet tulips with forget-me-nots"
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  54. # [00:30] <jgraham> (individually that is fine but a run on of three images like that with the same alt text and no punctuation is bad)
  55. # [00:30] <anne> w3.org has duplication of information under "Testimonials"
  56. # [00:31] <anne> says Volantis ... twice
  57. # [00:31] <anne> three times if you include the content
  58. # [00:31] <Philip> The news section says "Beijing floral scene" for a decorative image
  59. # [00:31] <anne> yeah... same for the one about SVG: http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item84
  60. # [00:32] <anne> pretty pointless
  61. # [00:32] <anne> and slightly confusing
  62. # [00:33] <Philip> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-the-canvas.html#textbaseline - Opera handles newlines and wrapping very poorly
  63. # [00:34] <anne> oh yeah, wow
  64. # [00:34] <Dashiva> What am I looking for?
  65. # [00:35] <anne> Dashiva, disable image support
  66. # [00:35] <Philip> "... the alphabetic baseline is where characters like Á, ÿ, f, and Ω are anchored, the ideographic baseline is where glyphs like 私 and 達 are anchored ..." - how does VoiceOver handle that? :-)
  67. # [00:35] <Dashiva> ah
  68. # [00:37] <anne> image search results don't do alt either it seems
  69. # [00:38] <anne> oh lol, my bank uses <br> inside the alt attribute
  70. # [00:38] <anne> and half the time they forget alt
  71. # [00:38] <anne> where it really should be alt=""
  72. # [00:39] <anne> afaict
  73. # [00:39] <Hixie> yeah that's why i like importantimagewithabettername=""
  74. # [00:39] <anne> wikipedia has alt text such as "Map showing ..."
  75. # [00:40] <Hixie> because most missing alt="" cases aren't important
  76. # [00:40] <Hixie> so legacy fallback is poor
  77. # [00:40] <Hixie> but then again
  78. # [00:40] <Hixie> most images _with_ alt are bogus too
  79. # [00:40] <Hixie> so...
  80. # [00:40] <anne> lets go C/HTTP and have alt2=""
  81. # [00:43] <smedero> I've seen HTML elements (<b>, <i>, and <br> in particular) inside alt="" more often than I'd expect... haven't done the appropriate "http://philip.html5.org/data.html" style statistical analysis on that assumption though.
  82. # [00:44] <anne> twitter has "Icon_star_empty" as alt text for supposedly interactive widgets, however, they don't seem to work with images disabled or maybe the UI doesn't function or something
  83. # [00:44] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/data/common-alt-values.txt
  84. # [00:45] <Philip> was from a while ago, and doesn't contain anything with <
  85. # [00:45] * Philip wonders if he's kept the uncommon ones somewhere
  86. # [00:45] <smedero> ahh, great!
  87. # [00:47] <smedero> I'm wondering if I came across a set of sites powered by some CMS tool that had a WYSIWYG editor that was allowing element insertion (accidentally or intentionally) when editing the alt value or something similar... I swore I ran into a bunch of those when I was sanitizing a web crawl once.
  88. # [00:47] <Philip> I see alt="...<..." on 349 pages (out of 130K), which is 869 images (out of 1314623)
  89. # [00:48] <Philip> Oops, forgot to limit the search to img elements
  90. # [00:49] <Philip> I see <img alt="...<..."> on 330 pages (of 130K), and 811 images (of 1246036)
  91. # [00:50] <smedero> thanks for looking that up.
  92. # [00:56] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/data/img-alt-with-lt.txt
  93. # [00:59] <smedero> 108 occurrences of alt="<empty>"
  94. # [01:00] <Philip> Woah, there's some Unicode characters in there and they're not all mangled
  95. # [01:00] * Philip pats his toolchain on the head
  96. # [01:00] <smedero> (or 13% for those who like powerpoint slide numbers.)
  97. # [01:01] <Philip> smedero: But almost all of those are on three sites
  98. # [01:01] <smedero> yeah, I'm seeing that now
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  103. # [01:21] <Lachy> hah! I like how John claimed "I have read all of the points in all of the threads...", and then in the same email, completely missed mjs' point about not requiring redundant text.
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  105. # [02:00] <Hixie> Philip: you don't have much ebay in your sample
  106. # [02:00] <Hixie> Philip: my sample was overwhelmed by the "this buyer accepts paypal" alt text seen on ebay pages
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  108. # [02:22] <Philip> Hixie: I guess most eBay pages are too ephemeral for the dmoz editors to accept
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  116. # [02:39] <Hixie> Philip: makes sense
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  289. # [18:51] <sharovatov> hi again
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  295. # [19:21] <Lachy> sharovatov, hi
  296. # [19:22] <sharovatov> Lachy, hi
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  326. # Session Close: Wed May 14 00:00:00 2008

The end :)