/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-05-21 / end

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  14. # May 21 01:13:32 <MikeSmith> . me is reading aaronlev posting on results of trying to convert an existing (browser supported) aria-dash case into proposed aria-colon syntax
  15. # May 21 01:13:44 <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0430.html
  16. # May 21 01:14:35 <MikeSmith> and was just before that reading Eitan Isaacson "Orca Doings" progress report
  17. # May 21 01:14:54 <MikeSmith> http://monotonous.org/2008/05/16/orca-doings/
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  20. # May 21 01:21:25 <smedero> MikeSmith: Do you know who I should ping for more info about the October 2008 Technical Plenary Week?
  21. # May 21 01:22:00 <MikeSmith> smedero: got your mail about that
  22. # May 21 01:22:05 <smedero> My employers are nagging me for an estimated conference budget for the year...
  23. # May 21 01:22:08 <smedero> :/
  24. # May 21 01:22:08 <MikeSmith> apologies for not replying thuse far
  25. # May 21 01:22:18 <smedero> no apologies needed, you're crazy busy I'm sure.
  26. # May 21 01:23:53 <MikeSmith> the best person to ask is maybe Amy van der Hiel <amy@w3.org>
  27. # May 21 01:24:07 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/People/all#amy
  28. # May 21 01:24:08 <smedero> ok, thanks.
  29. # May 21 01:24:39 <MikeSmith> hang on a minute and I will see if I can ping her on IRC and ask
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  31. # May 21 01:28:58 <MikeSmith> smedero: 195 € for single room, and 225 € for double room (+ City tax: 0.80€/night/pers.). Breakfast is included in the hotel rates.
  32. # May 21 01:29:07 <smedero> thanks!
  33. # May 21 01:29:17 <MikeSmith> "A block of rooms was reserved at the Sofitel Cannes Mandelieu Royal Casino for Saturday 18 october - Saturday 25 October 2008"
  34. # May 21 01:30:51 <smedero> along this same thread -- if anyone here is looking to split a hotel room let me know.
  35. # May 21 01:31:49 <MikeSmith> smedero: I'm told the draft hotel reservation form has a "sharing with:" field
  36. # May 21 01:31:58 <smedero> oh, groovy.
  37. # May 21 01:32:39 <MikeSmith> I don't think that W3C has done any kind of Wiki page or anything in the past to facilitate room splitting/sharing
  38. # May 21 01:32:59 <MikeSmith> people just seem to get it worked out on their owns
  39. # May 21 01:33:03 <smedero> yeah, make sense.
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  47. # May 21 02:58:53 --- Topic for #html-wg is HTML WG weekly 15 May 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
  48. # May 21 02:58:53 --- Topic for #html-wg set by DanC at Fri May 16 00:25:46 2008
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  63. # May 21 03:59:10 * anne finds http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0049.html
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  77. # May 21 04:47:38 <sharovatov> hi
  78. # May 21 04:52:14 <anne> yo
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  80. # May 21 05:20:49 <sharovatov> excuse me for potentially lame question, but why does HTML5 has 'localStorage' object instead of the 'globalStorage' one that's currently implemented in Gecko and IE8b1?
  81. # May 21 05:22:32 <Hixie> html5 had a globalStorage interface in an earlier version
  82. # May 21 05:22:45 <Hixie> but in response to feedback from mozilla (and some other people, but mostly mozilla) we fixed a bunch of problems they found
  83. # May 21 05:22:57 <Hixie> the changes were incompatible with the old version, so we renamed it
  84. # May 21 05:23:17 <Hixie> so that pages wouldn't get confused and try to use the old interface with the new implementations
  85. # May 21 05:23:38 <gsnedders> I still like the irony of renaming globalStorage to localStorage without changing the semantics :)
  86. # May 21 05:23:44 <sharovatov> :)
  87. # May 21 05:24:43 <sharovatov> thanks for the explanation, Hixie, I was a bit confused - IE whitepaper regarding DOM Storage said it implemented globalStorage as per HTML5 spec...
  88. # May 21 05:25:44 <anne> their white papers refer to some version of the HTML5 spec they implemented
  89. # May 21 05:25:45 <anne> not the latest one
  90. # May 21 05:25:49 <sharovatov> right. thanks
  91. # May 21 05:25:58 <anne> (which is true for every implementation, obviously)
  92. # May 21 05:26:02 <sharovatov> :)
  93. # May 21 05:26:58 <sharovatov> did Mozilla developers say if localStorage was going to be supported in FF3 release?
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  95. # May 21 05:27:44 <anne> last I heard they would try... not sure if it worked out
  96. # May 21 05:28:32 <sharovatov> I'm asking because I've got FF3b4 and it doesn't know anything about localStorage...
  97. # May 21 05:29:16 <gsnedders> anne: the FPWD, IIRC
  98. # May 21 05:29:40 <sharovatov> so the question is then - is it safe to use globalStorage? I really doubt IE8 will have globalStorage, and FF3 will probably not have this support as well...
  99. # May 21 05:30:50 <anne> IE8's globalStorage doesn't even match the old draft so I wouldn't worry too much about that...
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  101. # May 21 05:31:52 <sharovatov> erm, I've been testing IE8 globalStorage for the whole day today - noticed only one problem though..
  102. # May 21 05:32:44 <sharovatov> if we're going to have globalStorage supported for a some time, is it not worthy to mention it in the HTML5 spec in some way?
  103. # May 21 05:33:15 <anne> per the MS white paper IE8 globalStorage is asynchronous rather than synchronous...
  104. # May 21 05:33:29 <anne> and it has additional APIs not part of HTML5
  105. # May 21 05:33:59 <sharovatov> like .begin/.commit?
  106. # May 21 05:34:15 <anne> yes
  107. # May 21 05:36:31 <Lachy> are Microsoft's additional APIs useful extensions?
  108. # May 21 05:36:53 <Lachy> I wonder if they're intending to present them to the group for standardisation
  109. # May 21 05:37:01 <anne> they fundamentally change the API
  110. # May 21 05:37:07 <Lachy> oh, that sucks
  111. # May 21 05:37:22 <anne> and the "remainingSpace" feature is kind of hard to define
  112. # May 21 05:37:25 <sharovatov> well if localStorage(globalStorage) is supposed to be synchronous, then their transactional approach is not right
  113. # May 21 05:37:37 <anne> ("remainingSpace" is not the real name, but I don't recall how they called it)
  114. # May 21 05:37:41 <sharovatov> but remainingSpace seems to be useful
  115. # May 21 05:37:52 <sharovatov> anne, they call it remainingSpace
  116. # May 21 05:38:01 <anne> oh ok
  117. # May 21 05:38:05 <sharovatov> remainingSpace – You can use the remainingSpace property to check remaining
  118. # May 21 05:38:05 <sharovatov> storage space, which returns the number of bytes remaining
  119. # May 21 05:38:10 <anne> intuitive :p
  120. # May 21 05:38:13 <sharovatov> :)
  121. # May 21 05:38:19 <sharovatov> that's from their whitepaper
  122. # May 21 05:38:32 <sharovatov> anne, why do we need remainingSpace – You can use the remainingSpace property to check remaining
  123. # May 21 05:38:32 <sharovatov> storage space, which returns the number of bytes remaining
  124. # May 21 05:38:35 <sharovatov> sorry
  125. # May 21 05:38:41 <anne> the problem is that number of bytes doesn't help with string based storage
  126. # May 21 05:38:54 <anne> in addition stored stuff could be compressed in one way or another, etc.
  127. # May 21 05:38:54 <Philip> anne: "the "remainingSpace" feature is kind of hard to define" - sounds like you're focussing on the wrong end of the priority of constituencies :-p
  128. # May 21 05:38:56 <sharovatov> anne, why do we need the mechanism for storing name/value pairs to be synchronous?
  129. # May 21 05:38:58 <anne> so it's not really accurate
  130. # May 21 05:39:38 <anne> Philip, well, with hard to define I mean that unless you forbid compression you can't really define it
  131. # May 21 05:39:55 <sharovatov> as far as I understand, by remainingSpace they mean the space in the storage remaining for this domain
  132. # May 21 05:39:56 <anne> sharovatov, because for async we already have the SQL API
  133. # May 21 05:40:20 <sharovatov> ah, I see. so they are mutually exclusive - one synchronous, one not
  134. # May 21 05:40:24 <anne> sharovatov, yes, that still doesn't solve the string versus bytes problem or compression problem though
  135. # May 21 05:40:39 <sharovatov> errr... interesting
  136. # May 21 05:40:48 <anne> for string storage UTF-16 code units would make sense
  137. # May 21 05:40:52 <anne> not bytes
  138. # May 21 05:41:19 <anne> but then you could store them in UTF-8 or UTF-32 as well if you want in which case the remaining storage kind of depends...
  139. # May 21 05:42:52 <sharovatov> ah I see. so without way of knowing which codepage is used we can't tell how many characters can fit it, and if we just tell that X bytes more can fit, this info is useless
  140. # May 21 05:43:08 <sharovatov> *fit in
  141. # May 21 05:43:12 <Philip> anne: Would it work better with something like integerPercentageOfSpaceRemaining, so web apps could still show useful status information to the user, but they couldn't rely on precisely knowing how many more bytes/characters/etc they can store and hence there won't be interoperability problems when an implementor breaks that assumption?
  142. # May 21 05:43:30 <sharovatov> Philip, cool idea!
  143. # May 21 05:44:12 <Philip> (Hopefully the use case is about telling the user how much space they've got left, not about predicting exactly when you're going to get an out-of-space exception when adding to the store)
  144. # May 21 05:44:28 <anne> I think we first need more experience with the feature...
  145. # May 21 05:45:44 <Philip> If Microsoft insists on handling that use case, it'd be nice to give them a standard way to do it that will minimise the pain to other implementors
  146. # May 21 05:46:14 <sharovatov> Philip, well I think one of the best usecases for localStorage is autosaving script for blogs/forums/web-email/other apps; it would reduce the amount of ajax requests. and it would be very handy for situations when connections is not available
  147. # May 21 05:46:53 <sharovatov> in which case remainingSpace would be a good thing to have - so that the script could show a warning
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  152. # May 21 05:53:48 <sharovatov> thanks for the explanations and information, guys
  153. # May 21 05:53:51 <sharovatov> bye
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  155. # May 21 05:56:48 <Hixie> integerPercentageOfSpaceRemaining might work
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  186. # May 21 09:43:46 --> You are now talking on #html-wg
  187. # May 21 09:43:46 --- Topic for #html-wg is HTML WG weekly 15 May 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
  188. # May 21 09:43:46 --- Topic for #html-wg set by DanC at Fri May 16 00:25:46 2008
  189. # May 21 09:43:46 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (mcclure.w3.org).
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  194. # May 21 10:28:34 --> You are now talking on #html-wg
  195. # May 21 10:28:34 --- Topic for #html-wg is HTML WG weekly 15 May 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
  196. # May 21 10:28:34 --- Topic for #html-wg set by DanC at Fri May 16 00:25:46 2008
  197. # May 21 10:48:52 <MikeSmith> wonder if anybody here has read RFC 5147 and has any thoughts
  198. # May 21 10:49:01 <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5147
  199. # May 21 10:49:15 <MikeSmith> "URI Fragment Identifiers for the text/plain Media Type"
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  202. # May 21 11:44:54 <Hixie> i read rfc2046 long ago
  203. # May 21 11:45:03 <Hixie> what are the changes?
  204. # May 21 11:46:23 <Hixie> oh wait rfc2046 isn't what i thought it was
  205. # May 21 11:46:32 <Hixie> maybe what i read was an ID for this RFC at some point
  206. # May 21 11:48:56 <MikeSmith> Hixie: not sure what changes if any have been made since previous publications of content of this
  207. # May 21 11:49:12 <MikeSmith> Erik Wilde posted a related blog entry a few days back:
  208. # May 21 11:49:27 <MikeSmith> http://dret.typepad.com/dretblog/2008/05/xhtml-fragment.html
  209. # May 21 11:50:14 <MikeSmith> "why not ... give HTML 5 a more practical and useful set of fragment identification methods than just IDs?"
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  223. # May 21 13:21:17 <MikeSmith> re-reading Aaron Leventhal comments on ARIA-syntax thread..
  224. # May 21 13:22:31 <MikeSmith> "While I am respectful of the general desire to not throw out W3C's namespace architecture after years of work, I think that recommending colon to support fake namespaces only hurts the real namespace cause."
  225. # May 21 13:22:58 <MikeSmith> Let's keep the simple approach for ARIA properties, which works well now and is the same no matter where it's used"
  226. # May 21 13:23:24 <MikeSmith> "I'm sorry that it isn't the originally intended way to do these things, but that's not where the web is."
  227. # May 21 13:23:43 <MikeSmith> "ARIA is for solving accessibility problems in content today. We can reserve the colon for true, pure namespaces in text/html in case the community decides to pursue that."
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  236. # May 21 14:41:09 --> sharovatov (vitaly@88.87.71.83) has joined #html-wg
  237. # May 21 14:41:10 <sharovatov> hi
  238. # May 21 14:45:43 <Hixie> hi
  239. # May 21 14:46:10 --- [sharovatov] (vitaly@88.87.71.83) : RRSW-d
  240. # May 21 14:46:10 --- [sharovatov] #css #html-wg
  241. # May 21 14:46:10 --- [sharovatov] irc.w3.org :W3C IRC server
  242. # May 21 14:46:10 --- [sharovatov] End of WHOIS list.
  243. # May 21 14:48:59 <MikeSmith> sharovatov: btw, you're "data URI browser issues" posting is great
  244. # May 21 14:49:36 <MikeSmith> you must have done a good bit of testing to be able to get that data
  245. # May 21 14:49:56 <MikeSmith> test-case development
  246. # May 21 14:50:18 <sharovatov> thanks
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  249. # May 21 15:34:44 <sharovatov> guys, does anyone know if firefox is going to fix https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63895 by FF3 release?
  250. # May 21 15:35:20 * sharovatov thinks: it's probably worthy to ask on irc.mozilla.org... sorry for the offtopic
  251. # May 21 15:37:34 <MikeSmith> sharovatov: yep, mozilla IRC seems like better place to ask :)
  252. # May 21 15:37:45 <sharovatov> thanks :) already there! :)
  253. # May 21 15:38:07 Python interface unloaded
  254. # May 21 15:38:07 Tcl interface unloaded
  255. # May 21 15:57:30 --> You are now talking on #html-wg
  256. # May 21 15:57:30 --- Topic for #html-wg is HTML WG weekly 15 May 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
  257. # May 21 15:57:30 --- Topic for #html-wg set by DanC at Fri May 16 00:25:46 2008
  258. # May 21 15:57:30 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (mcclure.w3.org).
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  277. # May 21 17:50:25 <sharovatov> guys, I'm reading HTML5 Storage section here: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#structured . It says "Multiple separate objects implementing the Storage interface can all be associated with the same list of key/value pairs simultaneously." Can anybody help with understanding this? How can it be?
  278. # May 21 17:50:25 <-- mjs_ has quit (Connection reset by peer)
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  281. # May 21 17:51:04 <Hixie> sharovatov: one for each web page open
  282. # May 21 17:51:10 <Hixie> (from the same domain)
  283. # May 21 17:51:28 <sharovatov> ah, I see. so is this valid only for sessionStorage?
  284. # May 21 17:51:53 <Hixie> no, both can do it
  285. # May 21 17:52:01 <Hixie> localStorage is easiest to show this with
  286. # May 21 17:52:05 <sharovatov> err
  287. # May 21 17:52:10 <Hixie> since the same page open in multiple windows will show it easily
  288. # May 21 17:52:19 <sharovatov> AAAAA I see
  289. # May 21 17:52:20 <sharovatov> sorry!
  290. # May 21 17:52:22 <Hixie> sessionStorage you can only see it if you use <iframe>s, frames, etc
  291. # May 21 17:52:28 <sharovatov> right
  292. # May 21 17:52:28 <sharovatov> thanks for the explanation!
  293. # May 21 17:52:34 <Hixie> (since different windows automatically start new sessions)
  294. # May 21 17:52:44 <sharovatov> right, got it!!! cool :) Thanks Hixie :)
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  298. # May 21 17:55:09 <sharovatov> err, but now I don't understand another thing. if it's supposed to be synchronous, what would happen if 2 pages tried editing a value for the same key simultaneously?
  299. # May 21 17:55:23 <sharovatov> or does it allow only 1 "connection" ?
  300. # May 21 17:55:44 --> Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) has joined #html-wg
  301. # May 21 17:57:15 <Hixie> sharovatov: that's mentioned somewhere in the spec -- search for "threading" or something like that
  302. # May 21 17:57:25 <sharovatov> right, will have a look!
  303. # May 21 17:57:26 <sharovatov> thanks!
  304. # May 21 17:57:48 <anne> "threads", rather
  305. # May 21 17:57:57 <sharovatov> thanks anne!
  306. # May 21 17:58:14 <Hixie> yeah http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#threads0
  307. # May 21 17:58:43 <sharovatov> oh great. I should've read 'till the end before asking...
  308. # May 21 17:58:46 <sharovatov> thanks
  309. # May 21 18:04:47 <mjs_> Hixie: that requirement seems like it makes it pretty hard to offer Storage to worker threads
  310. # May 21 18:04:52 --- mjs_ is now known as mjs
  311. # May 21 18:05:11 <Hixie> yup
  312. # May 21 18:05:19 <Hixie> use the database api
  313. # May 21 18:05:40 <Hixie> (actually not really)
  314. # May 21 18:05:47 <mjs> Storage does have some additional capabilities right now
  315. # May 21 18:05:52 <mjs> (change notification and the session storage)
  316. # May 21 18:06:08 <sharovatov> and it's working right now (well, kind of) in IE8 and FF
  317. # May 21 18:06:13 <Hixie> (you can trivially implement this just using a lock that you take when you start using storage and that you release when you end your script)
  318. # May 21 18:06:27 <mjs> Hixie: taking a lock allows the worker thread to block the UI thread
  319. # May 21 18:06:35 <Hixie> yep
  320. # May 21 18:06:37 <mjs> which misses the point of worker threads
  321. # May 21 18:06:53 <Hixie> so proxy requests through postMessage :-)
  322. # May 21 18:07:02 <mjs> ok s/pretty hard to offer/pretty hard to offer efficiently/
  323. # May 21 18:07:39 <Hixie> if we make a synchronous API available across threads, there's no good way to do it safely without explicit locks (which have the same problem anyway)
  324. # May 21 18:08:11 <mjs> I'm not saying (necessarily) the requirement should be removed, I hadn't noticed it before
  325. # May 21 18:08:14 <Hixie> it would be insane if code like for (var x in localStorage) process(x); was to be unpredictable
  326. # May 21 18:09:15 <mjs> if the SQL API is the alternative then it would be nice if it had change notification (using postMessage + localStorage to proxy your SQL database change notifications seems messy)
  327. # May 21 18:09:39 <mjs> I think bradee-oh is gonna propose change notification for SQL storage anyway so I am not gonna worry about it
  328. # May 21 18:09:54 <mjs> having session info on worker threads would be nice too
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  331. # May 21 18:11:09 <mjs_> I agree that changing mid-iteration could suck, and locking for the duration of an iteration could be long-running enough to block the UI thread so there's no simple solution
  332. # May 21 18:11:16 <mjs_> (apologies for my terrible connection)
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  337. # May 21 18:17:09 <-- mjs has quit (Connection reset by peer)
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  340. # May 21 18:18:52 --- Notify: mjs is online (mcclure.w3.org).
  341. # May 21 18:21:43 <hsivonen> mjs: BTW, Validator.nu has the same dispatch architecture thing going as WebKit (having comparable name objects that encapsulate URI,localName)
  342. # May 21 18:22:14 <mjs> hsivonen: it seems like the sensible way to implement a namespace-aware DOM efficiently
  343. # May 21 18:22:27 <hsivonen> mjs: yes
  344. # May 21 18:22:30 <Hixie> mjs: do you have a remote server anywhere?
  345. # May 21 18:22:47 <Hixie> mjs: some always-connected machine with an ssh server on it?
  346. # May 21 18:22:56 <-- mjs has quit (Connection reset by peer)
  347. # May 21 18:24:18 --> mjs (mjs@216.27.178.204) has joined #html-wg
  348. # May 21 18:24:18 --- Notify: mjs is online (mcclure.w3.org).
  349. # May 21 18:24:25 <Hixie> mjs: do you have a remote server anywhere?
  350. # May 21 18:24:27 <Hixie> mjs: some always-connected machine with an ssh server on it?
  351. # May 21 18:24:27 <mjs> Hixie: at work... are you suggesting I should use screen and a command-line IRC client?
  352. # May 21 18:24:31 <Hixie> yes
  353. # May 21 18:24:32 <Hixie> :-)
  354. # May 21 18:24:51 <mjs> that's two things I would have to learn
  355. # May 21 18:24:55 <hsivonen> dircproxy and Colloquy works too
  356. # May 21 18:24:56 <mjs> instead I hit reload on the logs
  357. # May 21 18:25:22 <Hixie> with screen -x and an ssh key, your life would be much nicer, as you could just wrap whatever you're doing in a while (true); do ssh ...; done; loop
  358. # May 21 18:25:31 <mjs> I'm sorry, I know it is probably annoying, my net at home should be fixed in a couple of days
  359. # May 21 18:25:34 <hsivonen> I haven't used Colloquy since irssi got decent UTF-8 support
  360. # May 21 18:25:49 <mjs> I do have a system I can ssh to, I just don't know how to use screen
  361. # May 21 18:25:55 <mjs> or any command-line IRC clients
  362. # May 21 18:25:59 <hsivonen> three years ago, Colloquy required a dual-CPU machine to run reasonably :-)
  363. # May 21 18:26:04 <mjs> I know I just lost a lot of geek cred
  364. # May 21 18:26:19 <mjs> well fortunately both Colloquy and WebKit have improved
  365. # May 21 18:26:38 <mjs> (the Colloquy author is on the Safari team now, so you can pretty much blame him for all performance and memory problems in it)
  366. # May 21 18:26:57 <Hixie> mjs: i really don't mind, i'm just thinking about your sanity :-)
  367. # May 21 18:27:16 <Hixie> irssi is a pain to configure, so i can't give you an easy hint for that
  368. # May 21 18:27:56 <Hixie> screen, however, is just a matter of putting "screen -a -A -xRR -U -e^Pp" at the bottom of your .bash_profile
  369. # May 21 18:28:20 <Hixie> and you don't need to know anything else unless you want to open more than one connection
  370. # May 21 18:28:37 <Hixie> in which case you just need to know ^P ^C to create a new window, and ^P ^N to cycle through them
  371. # May 21 18:28:57 <Hixie> (and ^P ? brings up the help screen with more key bindings if you care)
  372. # May 21 18:30:07 <mjs> Hixie: do I want a literal caret, or a control character?
  373. # May 21 18:30:50 <Hixie> in the string you put in .bash_profile, a literal caret
  374. # May 21 18:32:57 <hsivonen> Hixie: am I reading correctly that the tree builder never uses attributes on an end tag token?
  375. # May 21 18:33:07 <Hixie> i hope so
  376. # May 21 18:33:38 <Hixie> though people keep suggesting it and i am tempted to do it just to see what reaction i'd get from the xml crowd :-)
  377. # May 21 18:34:42 <sharovatov> end tag token attributes - is it something like </div class='someclass'> ?
  378. # May 21 18:36:34 <Lachy> who has ever suggested allowing attributes on end tags?
  379. # May 21 18:37:18 <anne> sandboxing crowd
  380. # May 21 18:37:26 <Lachy> for what purpose?
  381. # May 21 18:37:39 <hsivonen> sharovatov: yes
  382. # May 21 18:37:44 <sharovatov> hsivonen, thanks
  383. # May 21 18:38:05 <Hixie> lots of people for lots of reasons
  384. # May 21 18:38:27 <Hixie> most recently, as a way to ensure the start tag and hte end tag are matched
  385. # May 21 18:38:29 <hsivonen> I just tested that Opera 9.5 and IE8 discard attributes on </br clear=left>
  386. # May 21 18:38:42 <Hixie> for a random-number-generator-dependent security sandboxing solution
  387. # May 21 18:38:51 <mjs> now I'm a crowd?
  388. # May 21 18:39:00 <Hixie> mjs: you're not the only one who has suggested it
  389. # May 21 18:39:22 <Hixie> i'm not sure i'd use the word "crowd"
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  391. # May 21 18:44:08 --> Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) has joined #html-wg
  392. # May 21 18:44:31 <anne> per answers.com it can mean "A group of people united by a common characteristic"
  393. # May 21 18:44:43 <hsivonen> the more I deal with edge cases, the more I think it would be a good idea to reuse all that by traslating this code to C++
  394. # May 21 18:45:50 <-- mjs has quit (Connection reset by peer)
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  403. # May 21 18:59:45 <sharovatov> I'm reading sessionStorage chapter, it says "User agents should always avoid deleting data while a script that could access that data is running". So couple of questions: 1) How can the UA know that the script will access sessionStorage? 2) As far as I understand, there will be a way to clear storages from UA's UI... So even if UA can find out that the script is going to access sessionStorage, what will happen?
  404. # May 21 19:00:26 <sharovatov> how this recommendation can be followed?
  405. # May 21 19:01:10 <Hixie> sharovatov: the UA can know when a script that _could_ access the data is running, since it runs the scripts and knows what storage bins they have access to
  406. # May 21 19:01:10 <-- mjs has quit (Connection reset by peer)
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  408. # May 21 19:01:38 <Hixie> and in practice UAs (other than opera) don't allow you to interact with the UI while script is running anyway
  409. # May 21 19:02:05 <Hixie> however, the "should" at the start of that sentence is a "should" and not a "must" precisely because there might a good reason to violate it -- e.g. the user saying so
  410. # May 21 19:02:12 <sharovatov> right.
  411. # May 21 19:02:16 <sharovatov> thanks for the explanation :)
  412. # May 21 19:02:42 <Hixie> np
  413. # May 21 19:04:26 <-- mjs has quit (Quit: mjs)
  414. # May 21 19:07:33 --> mjs (mjs@216.27.178.204) has joined #html-wg
  415. # May 21 19:12:04 * Philip briefly used Miau as an always-connected IRC proxy, but then gave up and switched to screen+irssi which was nicer and only took a day to learn :-)
  416. # May 21 19:14:46 <Hixie> screen+irssi rules
  417. # May 21 19:15:34 <Philip> I don't even know how to use screen, and it still works fine
  418. # May 21 19:16:34 <Philip> I can use 'screen -R' to attach to the old screen, and then I just stay like that until my internet connection goes down and ssh gets disconnected
  419. # May 21 19:17:17 * sharovatov just has an RDP to a machine with MIRC installed...
  420. # May 21 19:18:18 <Hixie> screen -x is the most amazing thing
  421. # May 21 19:28:46 <Philip> Wow, it even works
  422. # May 21 19:29:23 <Philip> and it's surprisingly non-laggy
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  425. # May 21 19:41:12 * hsivonen has to use screen -rU to get UTF-8 right
  426. # May 21 19:42:07 <Hixie> yeah i use -U as well
  427. # May 21 19:42:14 <Philip> I don't
  428. # May 21 19:42:21 <Hixie> i use "screen -a -A -xRR -U -e^Pp"
  429. # May 21 19:42:22 <Philip> and UTF-8 seems to somehow work anyway
  430. # May 21 19:43:01 <Lachy> what is the benefit of using screen, instead of just opening separate terminal windows?
  431. # May 21 19:43:45 <Philip> Lachy: It stays in existence even when you're not there
  432. # May 21 19:43:59 <Philip> e.g. if you're connecting over ssh then you can disconnect and reconnect and reattach to your old screen
  433. # May 21 19:45:18 <-- mjs_ has quit (Connection reset by peer)
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  437. # May 21 19:50:39 --> Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) has joined #html-wg
  438. # May 21 19:52:22 <Hixie> Lachy: i can connect to the same bash session from multiple computers
  439. # May 21 19:52:52 <Hixie> Lachy: so e.g. i can be half-way through writing an e-mail, and just close my laptop go to my desk and continue without even changing applications
  440. # May 21 19:53:05 <Hixie> with the cursor not having moved
  441. # May 21 19:53:27 <Hixie> it totally divorces my applications from the hardware i use to access them
  442. # May 21 19:55:18 <Philip> Just make sure you run it on a reliable server
  443. # May 21 19:59:43 --> ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) has joined #html-wg
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  455. # May 21 21:00:41 <sharovatov> poor mjs :)
  456. # May 21 21:00:55 <mjs_> that time was on purpose
  457. # May 21 21:01:00 <mjs_> (perf testing)
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  459. # May 21 21:01:07 --- othermaciej is now known as mjs
  460. # May 21 21:01:18 <sharovatov> :)
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  463. # May 21 21:13:39 --> mjs (mjs@216.27.178.204) has joined #html-wg
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  465. # May 21 21:14:12 * myakura wondering how <object data="image" /> in XHTML would be treated
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  469. # May 21 21:15:29 <myakura> would that be like an img elment with alt="" or that without @alt?
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  473. # May 21 21:18:45 <anne> myakura, either way, it could be conforming :p
  474. # May 21 21:18:51 <anne> s/could/would/
  475. # May 21 21:18:56 <myakura> :)
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  491. # May 21 21:29:03 <hsivonen> object causes information loss!
  492. # May 21 21:30:39 <-- mjs has quit (Ping timeout)
  493. # May 21 21:32:36 <anne> yeah, it's an interesting question though
  494. # May 21 21:33:06 --> mjs (mjs@216.27.178.204) has joined #html-wg
  495. # May 21 21:34:16 --> paullewis (paullewis@66.7.59.3) has joined #html-wg
  496. # May 21 21:36:51 <-- mjs has quit (Quit: mjs)
  497. # May 21 21:38:34 <hsivonen> sooo... I seem to end up with 4 modes for attributes:
  498. # May 21 21:38:37 <hsivonen> 1) HTML
  499. # May 21 21:38:53 <hsivonen> 2) HTML with xml:lang XHTML compat (not in spec)
  500. # May 21 21:38:56 <hsivonen> 3) MathML
  501. # May 21 21:38:58 <hsivonen> 4) SVG
  502. # May 21 21:39:00 <hsivonen> fun fun
  503. # May 21 21:39:15 --> mjs (mjs@216.27.178.204) has joined #html-wg
  504. # May 21 21:44:09 --> You are now talking on #html-wg
  505. # May 21 21:44:09 --- Topic for #html-wg is HTML WG weekly 15 May 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
  506. # May 21 21:44:09 --- Topic for #html-wg set by DanC at Fri May 16 00:25:46 2008
  507. # May 21 21:44:09 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (mcclure.w3.org).
  508. # May 21 21:44:17 <hsivonen> anne: not the same: different modes
  509. # May 21 21:44:53 <anne> with MathML you mean stuff like xml:lang right?
  510. # May 21 21:45:06 <hsivonen> anne: yeah. and all the xmlns cruft
  511. # May 21 21:45:11 <anne> right
  512. # May 21 21:45:28 <anne> there's not really a straightforward path to simplify that I think
  513. # May 21 21:45:56 <anne> apart from doing it everywhere I suppose :)
  514. # May 21 21:46:07 <anne> but that would break html[xmlns] { }
  515. # May 21 21:46:29 <hsivonen> what's html[xmlns] { } ?
  516. # May 21 21:46:52 <anne> a selector that some people rely on
  517. # May 21 21:46:54 <anne> apparently
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  519. # May 21 21:47:32 <hsivonen> sense of logic left at the door I guess
  520. # May 21 21:47:56 <hsivonen> unless it's a clever way to make one style sheet work in both HTML and XML modes
  521. # May 21 21:49:12 <anne> i guess it's more like a hack to hide stuff from IE6
  522. # May 21 21:49:21 <hsivonen> oh
  523. # May 21 21:49:26 <sharovatov> hm
  524. # May 21 21:49:51 <anne> but that's a guess, I haven't seen it myself :)
  525. # May 21 21:49:52 <sharovatov> won't IE8 apply rules to such a selector?
  526. # May 21 21:49:58 <sharovatov> it should do....
  527. # May 21 21:49:58 <hsivonen> I suppose I'm going to implement the qName cruft and sped a bit of static memory on it
  528. # May 21 21:50:13 <anne> sharovatov, that's why I said IE6, not IE7, or IE8...
  529. # May 21 21:50:21 <sharovatov> anne, it's a weird hack then...
  530. # May 21 21:50:28 <sharovatov> ah, I see
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  533. # May 21 22:01:35 <sharovatov> Hixie, HTML5, 4.11.1.6 Threads: s/guarentee/guarantee/
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  538. # May 21 22:16:53 <anne> sharovatov, best way to provide feedback is by e-mailing either list
  539. # May 21 22:17:01 <anne> even for typoes
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  542. # May 21 22:25:18 <sharovatov> oh, sorry, I didn't know that
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  544. # May 21 22:25:24 <-- tlr has quit (Quit: tlr)
  545. # May 21 22:25:25 <sharovatov> what is the address?
  546. # May 21 22:25:51 --> mjs (mjs@216.27.178.204) has joined #html-wg
  547. # May 21 22:27:58 <anne> public-html-comments@w3.org or you join the HTML WG and post to public-html@w3.org or join the WHATWG and post to whatwg@whatwg.org ...
  548. # May 21 22:27:58 <sharovatov> I've only found whatwg mailing list, is this the right place?
  549. # May 21 22:28:08 <anne> WHATWG works, but you need to subscribe first
  550. # May 21 22:28:16 <sharovatov> right, I will subscribe
  551. # May 21 22:28:21 <sharovatov> thanks for pointing!
  552. # May 21 22:29:10 <anne> no problem
  553. # May 21 22:29:34 <billyjack> sharovatov: please consider joining the HTML working group
  554. # May 21 22:29:52 <billyjack> you first need to have a W3C account, then apply to join
  555. # May 21 22:30:02 --- You are now known as MikeSmith
  556. # May 21 22:30:53 <sharovatov> oh... i've joined html wg long ago (when Hixie posted a note about that on his blog), but unfortunately didn't have time to do anything till last week. couple of days ago tried logging in with no success..
  557. # May 21 22:31:20 <sharovatov> retrieved my password - still couldn't log in... I'll email their sysadmin
  558. # May 21 22:31:21 <MikeSmith> sharovatov: you can have the system re-mail you a password
  559. # May 21 22:31:23 <MikeSmith> ah
  560. # May 21 22:31:23 <anne> http://blog.whatwg.org/w3c-restarts-html-effort
  561. # May 21 22:31:30 <anne> has steps for how to join the HTML WG
  562. # May 21 22:31:46 <anne> anyway, either way works, but for this channel I suppose HTML WG is more politically correct :)
  563. # May 21 22:31:56 <MikeSmith> sharovatov: e-mail me directly if you want
  564. # May 21 22:32:01 <MikeSmith> mike@w3.org
  565. # May 21 22:32:15 <sharovatov> what information should I provide?
  566. # May 21 22:32:20 <sharovatov> my login and password?
  567. # May 21 22:32:29 <MikeSmith> no password please :)
  568. # May 21 22:32:46 <Philip> You can still email public-html@w3.org without joining the HTML WG, you just can't subscribe to receive the list
  569. # May 21 22:32:49 <MikeSmith> your firstname & lastname and/or username is all I need
  570. # May 21 22:33:03 <MikeSmith> true (what Philip said)
  571. # May 21 22:33:09 <sharovatov> Philip, I would prefer to subscribe though
  572. # May 21 22:33:22 <sharovatov> so I'll email MikeSmith :)
  573. # May 21 22:33:29 * Philip subscribes with one email address and posts with a totally different one, so he's glad the list doesn't check
  574. # May 21 22:37:17 <sharovatov> MikeSmith, I've emailed you! Thanks again
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  580. # May 21 22:40:19 <MikeSmith> sharovatov: cheers
  581. # May 21 22:40:23 <sharovatov> :)
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  626. # May 21 23:04:07 --> You are now talking on #html-wg
  627. # May 21 23:04:07 --- Topic for #html-wg is HTML WG weekly 15 May 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
  628. # May 21 23:04:07 --- Topic for #html-wg set by DanC at Fri May 16 00:25:46 2008
  629. # May 21 23:04:07 --- Notify: hsivonen is online (mcclure.w3.org).
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  646. # May 21 23:12:32 <Lachy> I wonder why Dmitry is posting off topic mails about SQL5 to public-html?!
  647. # May 21 23:13:22 <Philip> anne: http://www.lucky-bag.com/ is the only "html[xmlns]" I see
  648. # May 21 23:15:14 <Philip> (which points at http://www.webtoolkit.info/css-clearfix.html as promoting that syntax)
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  650. # May 21 23:24:09 <deane> Lachy: Hi, he posted it to [xml-dev] too
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The end :)