/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-05-23 / end

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  82. # [09:54] <aaronlev> hi MikeSmith
  83. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> aaronlev: hei
  84. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> thanks for your follow-up on the ARIA syntax issue
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  169. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/
  170. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> reviews welcom
  171. # [18:46] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: So this just compares the latest WD with the previous one, whereas the HTML 4–5 diff lists diffs between HTML 4 and the current WD?
  172. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yep
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  174. # [18:49] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: "The following not was added"
  175. # [18:49] <gsnedders> s/not/note/
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  177. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: thanks, now fixed
  178. # [18:51] * gsnedders doesn't really have time to look at it with such a big backlog of things to do
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  180. # [18:59] <myakura> MikeSmith: i've started translating it (into ja)
  181. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> myakura: cheers
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  183. # [19:01] <myakura> i guess it'll take 3 or 4 days to be done, hopes for getting ready before it's published..
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  185. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> responses on publishing survey are due today US time, and results of that will be OK to publish
  186. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> so I reckon we will publish early/mid next week
  187. # [19:04] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd-html5-may/results - hmm, apparently only 11 Members so far, and 12 are needed
  188. # [19:04] <myakura> oops, found <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" /><meta charset="utf-8" />
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  190. # [19:05] * myakura wonders why acknowledgements are marked up w/ blockquote
  191. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> myakura: no good reason
  192. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> I will change that
  193. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> I think the extra meta is getting added by something
  194. # [19:06] <myakura> by html5lib?
  195. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> myakura: yeah, probably
  196. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> I think there is a param to prevent it from doing that
  197. # [19:07] <gsnedders> Why's it going through html5lib?
  198. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: because the source is in text/html
  199. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> and not well-formed XML
  200. # [19:07] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: So?
  201. # [19:08] <myakura> <img src="http://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home" alt="W3C" width="72" height="48"> relieved that there's @alt :p
  202. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> I need to generate well-formed XHTML/XML for W3C pubrules
  203. # [19:08] <gsnedders> Ah, to convert it.
  204. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> yeah
  205. # [19:08] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ isn't X(HT)ML
  206. # [19:09] <Philip> so why is this case different?
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  208. # [19:09] <gsnedders> Peh! The postprocessor just uses really bizarre pseudo-HTML parsers!
  209. # [19:09] <myakura> i think HTML is also allowed
  210. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> Philip: dunno, but I got spanked a while back for a page I put up that was text/html
  211. # [19:10] <gsnedders> "All normative representations must validate as either HTML 4.x or as some version of XHTML that is a W3C Recommendation."
  212. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> comm team had some tool that expected well-formed XML, so it choked on that
  213. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> or something
  214. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> OK, so maybe I just change the output doctype to HTML instead of XHTML
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  229. # [19:50] <matt> MikeSmith: I think you end up on a less well-tread path (and thus potentially buggier path (and thus potentially hours of starring at the results wondering what is going on)) if you feed the automated pubrules checker tool not-well-formed xml.
  230. # [19:52] <matt> Oh, wait, no I think it's that the tool might run Tidy over it if it's not well-formed, but it's not obvious that that's what it did, so you end up with errors related to code that you are 100% sure doesn't exist in your document, and you slowly go crazy until you remember this feature is there...
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  232. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> matt: pubrules checker opaque to me
  233. # [19:55] <sharovatov> hi all :)
  234. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> a vengeful god that must be appeased
  235. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> sharovatov: hey
  236. # [19:55] <sharovatov> hi MikeSmith :)
  237. # [19:55] <sharovatov> itfriday
  238. # [19:56] <sharovatov> it's a friday night :)
  239. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> you still have not actually re-applied for invited expert status in the HTML WG, as far as I know
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  241. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> if you need help with that, let me know
  242. # [19:56] <sharovatov> err, I will check. but that's really funny to call people like me "experts" :)
  243. # [19:56] <sharovatov> how do I do it?
  244. # [19:58] <matt> You're the expert... :)
  245. # [19:59] <sharovatov> :D
  246. # [20:01] <matt> Does http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/ie-renew bring you to something reasonable? I'm not an IE so I get a nastygram.
  247. # [20:02] <sharovatov> matt, thanks! cool, I'm in!
  248. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> sharovatov: welcome back
  249. # [20:04] <sharovatov> thanks guys :)
  250. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> now get started doing some "expert" stuff
  251. # [20:05] <sharovatov> right.
  252. # [20:06] <matt> You're welcome
  253. # [20:06] <matt> And now that I've done my good deed for the day, I think I'll check out. /me waves
  254. # [20:06] <sharovatov> :)
  255. # [20:06] <sharovatov> cheers matt
  256. # [20:06] <sharovatov> have a good evening
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  260. # [20:16] <sharovatov> does anyone know what's the most often used unicode font with best unicode subrange coverage?
  261. # [20:16] <sharovatov> is Arial Unicode MS installed on many machines?
  262. # [20:18] <Philip> Is anyone going to encourage Members to respond to http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd-html5-may/ before tomorrow, to make sure it reaches quorum?
  263. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> Philip: I will
  264. # [20:18] <Philip> MikeSmith: Ah, that would be good
  265. # [20:18] <Philip> You're our hero
  266. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> heh
  267. # [20:21] <Philip> sharovatov: I remember it being installed with Office a long time, so quite a few people (but far from everyone) would have it, but I've got no idea how things have changed recently
  268. # [20:21] <sharovatov> :(
  269. # [20:21] <sharovatov> I never used Linux so I don't know what's the best font there (by supporting unicode I mean)
  270. # [20:22] <sharovatov> and don't know if there's such a font that would have decent unicode support and would be installed on lin/win/mac machines
  271. # [20:22] <Philip> If you're using it on the web, you should be able to use any font and browsers should fall back on whatever supports the missing characters
  272. # [20:22] <sharovatov> well, if I use something from the range that's not supported by most of fonts, what the UA would fall back to?
  273. # [20:23] <Philip> sharovatov: On Linux, the most common Unicodey font is probably Bitstream Vera Sans (or equivalently DejaVu Sans)
  274. # [20:23] <Philip> (...or the non-sans alternatives)
  275. # [20:23] <sharovatov> thanks!
  276. # [20:23] <sharovatov> that's quite interesting. Bitstream seems to support quite a good unicode range
  277. # [20:23] <Philip> sharovatov: It should always fall back unless there are no fonts at all which support that character
  278. # [20:24] <sharovatov> Philip, look at unicode characters for Georgian language for example
  279. # [20:25] <sharovatov> does Bitstream support it?
  280. # [20:25] <sharovatov> I mean if it doesn't and browser falls back to the font that has even less unicode characters, how would it display georgian characters then?
  281. # [20:25] <Philip> If I look at e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page (with its languages list), Opera seems to use about half a dozen fonts
  282. # [20:26] <sharovatov> aaaaa I see what you mean
  283. # [20:26] <Philip> sharovatov: It uses a different font for each character if necessary, rather than choosing a single fallback for the entire page/paragraph/sentence/word
  284. # [20:26] <sharovatov> so it tries to find characters from different fonts, right?
  285. # [20:26] <sharovatov> wow
  286. # [20:26] <sharovatov> how does it find the font for the character?
  287. # [20:26] <Philip> Magic ;-)
  288. # [20:27] <sharovatov> no, really
  289. # [20:27] <sharovatov> is it specified anywhere?
  290. # [20:27] <Philip> I don't know
  291. # [20:27] <Philip> No, it's UA-specific
  292. # [20:27] <sharovatov> or is it just a UA being magically clever
  293. # [20:27] <sharovatov> right
  294. # [20:27] <sharovatov> cool
  295. # [20:28] <sharovatov> is it only Opera that behaves like this?
  296. # [20:28] <Philip> (My browser is currently using (among others) "华文仿宋.ttf", "batang.ttf", "kochi-gothic-subst.ttf", "kochi-mincho-subst.ttf")
  297. # [20:28] <Philip> They all do
  298. # [20:28] <Philip> (as far as I'm aware)
  299. # [20:28] <sharovatov> wow, cool. that's really interesting!
  300. # [20:29] <sharovatov> so it's not specified anywhere... but how do the <td>no</td>
  301. # [20:29] <sharovatov> <td>yes</td>
  302. # [20:29] <sharovatov> <td>no</td>
  303. # [20:29] <sharovatov> <td>yes</td>
  304. # [20:29] <sharovatov> <td>yes</td>
  305. # [20:29] <sharovatov> <td>yes</td>
  306. # [20:29] * Philip doesn't like files called "华文仿宋" because they're hard to manipulate on the command line
  307. # [20:29] <sharovatov> <td>yes</td>
  308. # [20:29] <sharovatov> <td>yes</td>
  309. # [20:29] <sharovatov> oh
  310. # [20:29] <sharovatov> id' better go and finish my blogpost
  311. # [20:29] <sharovatov> i;m stupid and it's friday night
  312. # [20:29] <sharovatov> sorry everybody
  313. # [20:29] <Philip> :-)
  314. # [20:30] <sharovatov> Thanks Philip for the explanation
  315. # [20:30] <Philip> I think the font substitution is sometimes done by the OS libraries, but you should ask someone who actually knows what they're talking about
  316. # [20:30] <sharovatov> I will definetely do
  317. # [20:31] <sharovatov> i've just finished testing browser native form values persistence
  318. # [20:31] <sharovatov> quite interesting
  319. # [20:35] <Philip> Hixie: On the survey: "Google, Inc. (Jens Meiert) - Yes, agree - I was the one to suggest it. :-)" - am I right in thinking Jens stole your response?
  320. # [20:36] * Quits: deane (dean@121.98.128.155) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0b5/2008050509])
  321. # [20:39] <Philip> Looking at the non-responders list, it's quite surprising how many people use Gmail, and how few use Hotmail or Yahoo Mail
  322. # [21:12] <sharovatov> ok thanks everybody for everything, authors for the html5 and God for the world we live and web we have :)
  323. # [21:12] <sharovatov> good night
  324. # [21:12] <sharovatov> see you all tomorrow :)
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The end :)