/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-05-29 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu May 29 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <anne> "The Mozilla Foundation is funding Wellington Fernando de Macedo to help implement in the Mozilla code base server-sent DOM events functionality as specified in HTML5."
  4. # [00:00] <anne> "The Mozilla Foundation is funding Ben Millard for an accessibility-related project to study how authors use HTML in practice, compare this with the semantics and accessibilty-related features in HTML5, identify any gaps, and help develop realistic ways to fill them."
  5. # [00:00] <anne> -- http://blog.hecker.org/2008/05/28/mozilla-foundation-activities-week-ending-20080523/
  6. # [00:00] <anne> sounds nice
  7. # [00:03] <takkaria> oh, Ben getting funding is wonderful
  8. # [00:03] <smedero> yeah, congrats Ben!
  9. # [00:04] <smedero> Your presentation on HTML table issues in Boston (nov. 2007) was helpful, I'm glad you'll be able to continue similar efforts.
  10. # [00:07] <Hixie> sweet
  11. # [00:19] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.242)
  12. # [00:26] * Quits: heycam (cam@124.168.33.67) (Quit: bye)
  13. # [00:36] * Quits: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.156.73) (Quit: ciao)
  14. # [00:38] * Joins: drry (drry@211.9.156.86)
  15. # [00:59] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  16. # [00:59] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  17. # [01:16] * Quits: adele_ (adele@17.203.14.149) (Client exited)
  18. # [01:16] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.162)
  19. # [01:18] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.242) (Quit: mjs)
  20. # [01:19] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.66) (Connection reset by peer)
  21. # [01:24] * Quits: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251) (Quit: smedero)
  22. # [01:33] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  23. # [01:35] * Quits: aroben_ (aroben@71.58.57.150) (Quit: Leaving)
  24. # [01:51] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.242)
  25. # [01:55] * Quits: hober (ted@206.212.254.2) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
  26. # [02:14] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.87.97)
  27. # [02:20] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.87.97) (Ping timeout)
  28. # [02:22] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.87.118)
  29. # [02:26] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.87.118) (Quit: Leaving)
  30. # [02:26] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.87.118)
  31. # [02:31] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254) (Quit: Leaving)
  32. # [03:01] * Joins: Navarr (navarr@76.247.247.31)
  33. # [03:06] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.242) (Quit: mjs)
  34. # [03:13] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.242)
  35. # [03:18] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.87.118) (Ping timeout)
  36. # [03:41] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.14.162) (Ping timeout)
  37. # [03:48] * Quits: marcos_away (marcos@131.181.148.227) (Quit: marcos_away)
  38. # [04:04] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.242) (Ping timeout)
  39. # [04:07] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  40. # [04:20] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  41. # [04:23] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.242)
  42. # [04:41] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.153.3)
  43. # [04:55] * Joins: marcos_ (marcos@131.181.148.227)
  44. # [05:27] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.242) (Quit: mjs)
  45. # [05:56] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.125.179)
  46. # [06:28] * Joins: mjs (mjs@70.137.131.51)
  47. # [06:58] * Quits: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84) (Quit: bye)
  48. # [07:36] * Joins: heycam (cam@124.168.33.67)
  49. # [07:50] * Quits: mjs (mjs@70.137.131.51) (Ping timeout)
  50. # [07:51] * Joins: mjs (mjs@70.137.131.51)
  51. # [08:16] * Quits: marcos_ (marcos@131.181.148.227) (Ping timeout)
  52. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> OK, pubnotes doc now up to date with all changes
  53. # [08:35] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/
  54. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> now need to make some formatting tweaks to get it ready to publish
  55. # [08:37] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.112)
  56. # [08:45] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.112) (Quit: Leaving)
  57. # [08:46] * Quits: adele (adele@24.7.125.179) (Quit: adele)
  58. # [08:56] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.112)
  59. # [09:21] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.153.3) (Quit: g'night)
  60. # [09:27] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.112) (Ping timeout)
  61. # [09:30] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.112)
  62. # [09:35] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  63. # [09:48] * Joins: marcos_ (marcos@131.181.148.227)
  64. # [09:54] * Quits: marcos_ (marcos@131.181.148.227) (Quit: marcos_)
  65. # [09:55] * Joins: marcos_ (marcos@131.181.148.227)
  66. # [09:55] * Joins: tH (Rob@87.102.114.53)
  67. # [10:12] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.253.193.147) (Ping timeout)
  68. # [10:18] <anne> MikeSmith, thanks, didn't realize there was something like a First Public WG Note
  69. # [10:18] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Ping timeout)
  70. # [10:27] * Joins: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169)
  71. # [10:34] * marcos_ is now known as marcos_office
  72. # [10:45] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
  73. # [10:51] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.112) (Ping timeout)
  74. # [10:54] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.112)
  75. # [10:59] * Joins: deane (dean@121.98.128.155)
  76. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> anne: about the differences-from-HTML4 doc
  77. # [11:03] <anne> call it html5-diff
  78. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> can you add to that somewhere the list from the following message?
  79. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0087.html
  80. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> titled "Areas that are introducing major architectural features"
  81. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> or something along those lines
  82. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> that seems like a very useful list for readers to have
  83. # [11:05] <Hixie> i sure hope the TAG does send us feedback soon rather than waiting til we go to last call
  84. # [11:06] <Hixie> the longer they wait the harder changes become and the more likely it is that i will be unable to act on their feedback
  85. # [11:07] <anne> MikeSmith: "Impact on Web Arhictecture"?
  86. # [11:08] <anne> as section 1.4?
  87. # [11:08] <anne> opinions, anyone?
  88. # [11:09] <anne> (with the correct spelling of Architecture by the way, is the proposal :) )
  89. # [11:09] * anne goes to add it
  90. # [11:09] <anne> guess i can also add sandboxing and such while i'm at it
  91. # [11:10] <hsivonen> anne: Is it important for tokenizer tests to test the content model flag with bogus element names like foo?
  92. # [11:10] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  93. # [11:11] <anne> hsivonen, I don't think I added content model flag tests
  94. # [11:11] <Hixie> if the publications happens more than about 60 minutes from now, you'll have to add showNotification() too :-)
  95. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, as section 1.4 seems good. and I guess that title seems OK. maybe "Relationship to Web Architecture"
  96. # [11:11] <hsivonen> (my recent tokenizer optimizations assume that the content model flag abnormal only with known HTML elements)
  97. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> anne: leave some room for showNotification() ..
  98. # [11:12] <Hixie> hehe
  99. # [11:13] <hsivonen> NCNames are such a pain to check...
  100. # [11:13] <hsivonen> using regexps shows up in a profiler
  101. # [11:14] * hsivonen writes more performant NCName checking
  102. # [11:14] <anne> MikeSmith, great idea to include that list, more ammo for later :)
  103. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> we'll publish the middle of next week -- the next WD of the spec, new pubnotes doc, FPWD-vs-this-WD giganto generated HTML diff, updated WD of html5-diff doc
  104. # [11:15] <anne> is the diff part of /html5 or part of /html5-pubnotes ?
  105. # [11:16] <Hixie> k
  106. # [11:16] <Hixie> guess i
  107. # [11:16] <Hixie> 'd better reenable the pubrules checking
  108. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> anne: the diff is just the generated HTMLdiff of the spec itself
  109. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> pushbutton-generated using http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff
  110. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I guess checking to make sure we pubrules-OK would be good
  111. # [11:18] <hsivonen> I wonder it makes sense to include huge static arrays with permitted NCName code points
  112. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> Hixie: we may need to freeze a static copy of W3C version at some particular rev to use as the basis for this WD
  113. # [11:20] <Hixie> sure
  114. # [11:20] <Hixie> any rev should be fine
  115. # [11:20] <Hixie> i'll let you know if i leave a bad rev up for more than a few minutes
  116. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> so at the moment we are at r1.900 of the spec in W3C CVS
  117. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> r1713 of WHATWG SVN
  118. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> r1.900 is nice round number
  119. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> we can go with that
  120. # [11:22] <Hixie> heh
  121. # [11:22] <Hixie> that seems very arbitrary :-P
  122. # [11:22] <anne> i suggest we take whatever is in there on monday
  123. # [11:23] <Hixie> i'd use whatever the latest version you can use is
  124. # [11:23] <anne> so we have two days to make stuff ready
  125. # [11:23] <Hixie> otherwise it's going to be way out of date :-)
  126. # [11:23] <anne> (including all the documents that describe differences and such)
  127. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> going with whatever is there is Monday is OK
  128. # [11:23] <anne> Hixie, TR/ versions are always out of date :)
  129. # [11:23] <anne> even most RECs :)
  130. # [11:24] <Hixie> true but there's no need to make it more than necessary :-)
  131. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> but the main reason I need to wait til later in the week is that I will be out from tomorrow until Tuesday night my time
  132. # [11:24] <Philip> The document published in TR/ should just contain a script that downloads the latest data via XHR and displays it, so it's always up to date
  133. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> but regardless it will not take me more than a couple hours to do the publication prep on Tuesday/Wednesday my time
  134. # [11:25] <anne> MikeSmith, in that case we can do whatever is there on tuesday and publish thursday
  135. # [11:25] <anne> that'd work too
  136. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> yeah, let's make that the tentative plan
  137. # [11:25] <anne> anyway, all i need to do is updating html5-diff and that's trivial, i just need to be around :)
  138. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> OK
  139. # [11:26] <Hixie> Philip: can't put scripts on w3.org, apparently, that's why the annotations aren't on the w3c copy
  140. # [11:26] <Philip> Hixie: Oh, that's a shame
  141. # [11:27] <Hixie> note that the policy makes no sense
  142. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I do think we need to try to get a multi-page version in W3C space at least
  143. # [11:27] <Hixie> since if the policy is in place because people aren't trusted, then why make it possible at all? (there's no technical barrier to me putting a script on w3.org, i have access)
  144. # [11:27] <Hixie> and if people _are_ trusted, what's wrong with scripts?
  145. # [11:27] <Philip> The urgency of annotation changes is not much greater than the time between spec updates, so it could be reasonable (for the Editor's Drafts) to add the annotations statically
  146. # [11:27] <Hixie> anyway
  147. # [11:27] <Hixie> the w3c works in mysterious ways.
  148. # [11:28] * gsnedders is listening to Mysterious Ways by U2 from Achtung Baby
  149. # [11:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i believe Philip was the one who set that up the first time
  150. # [11:28] <gsnedders> I swear, iTunes isn't random.
  151. # [11:28] <Hixie> Philip: if you want to write something up that does that, i'm happy to code it up
  152. # [11:28] <Hixie> er
  153. # [11:28] <Hixie> i
  154. # [11:28] <Hixie> mean
  155. # [11:28] <Hixie> i'm happy to set it up
  156. # [11:28] <Hixie> not code it :-)
  157. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> Philip: when you have time, would appreciate the help
  158. # [11:29] * Hixie doesn't much care about the w3c version :-)
  159. # [11:29] <Hixie> whatwg version is canonical imho :-)
  160. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> perhaps too late to aim for getting it done for this WD
  161. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> but at least for next WD
  162. # [11:29] <anne> Hixie, you cared enough to ask for publication ;)
  163. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> which we need to target for within next 3 months at most
  164. # [11:30] <Philip> Oh, I've still got an updated multipager script somewhere, I need to find that again and fix it and try to get it used...
  165. # [11:30] <Philip> MikeSmith: I'd be happy to help if there's anything specific to do :-)
  166. # [11:30] <Hixie> anne: that's just my ego wanting to show people at w3c (who don't seem to believe in editor drafts) that we are moving :-)
  167. # [11:30] <anne> MikeSmith, that'd be August
  168. # [11:30] <hsivonen> argh. NCName written out as code point tables produces relatively large tables
  169. # [11:31] <Hixie> Philip: i had to make some changes to the one you originally made, but hte one in html5.googlecode.com svn is the live code that runs every 24 hours for whatwg
  170. # [11:31] <anne> MikeSmith, or very early September I suppose
  171. # [11:31] <Hixie> i plan to next ask for publication in early august, fwiw
  172. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> Philip: just getting multi-page version working with the build script that Hixie uses to generate the spec copy in W3C CVS
  173. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> early August is good. we need to decide on and start following a regular WD publication schedule
  174. # [11:32] <Philip> MikeSmith: As far as I'm aware the build script is non-public, so anything related to that is Hixie's problem
  175. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> every 3 months or even lesst
  176. # [11:33] <Philip> although actually maybe the splitter script would need to be updated to handle the W3C version's header, in which case that could be my problem
  177. # [11:33] <Hixie> Philip: actually the splitter script right now is running as a web service on a totally separate host
  178. # [11:34] <Hixie> Philip: and my script just puts the completed whatwg html5 index.html file in a known location, then invokes that web service, which downlaods the file, runs your script on it, tars up the result and puts it in a known place, and then calls a cgi script on whatwg.org, which then downloads the tarball and untars it in the right place.
  179. # [11:36] <Hixie> so if you can provide a service which, when called, downloads http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.w3c/Overview.html and then pings a URI we decide on together to let it know that a tarball is available, i can do that
  180. # [11:36] <Hixie> though i don't recommend checking in the resulting multipage version into dev.w3.org
  181. # [11:36] <Hixie> and would rather recommend making this script be part of our publication pipeline for /TR/ only
  182. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> OK, in that case it's something I can invoke manually as part of the publication prep
  183. # [11:37] <Hixie> (the whatwg version is no longer live either, it's just generated using that service ever 24 hours)
  184. # [11:37] <Philip> Hixie: I don't have any particularly reliable or fast hosting for a service like that, so I'd be happier to just update the script and let you host it yourself
  185. # [11:38] <Hixie> i don't have a particularly reliable or fast hosting for a service like that either
  186. # [11:38] <Hixie> for the whatwg one i'm borrowing cpu from a friend who has a machine in the uk
  187. # [11:38] <Philip> But that way it's your problem and not mine :-p
  188. # [11:38] <anne> as MikeSmith said, it's not an issue if it's just for TR/
  189. # [11:38] <Hixie> my solution is to not solve hte problem as i don't care about the TR page's readability :-)
  190. # [11:38] <anne> it can just be run before publication
  191. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> I can possibly host it people.w3.org
  192. # [11:39] <Philip> For TR I suppose it's a pain that the section/page names aren't necessarily stable, since that'll break links
  193. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> I certainly can host it, I just don't know if what dependencies it has and if I have those on people.w3.org
  194. # [11:40] <Philip> (My updated splitter includes JS on each page that detects and redirects when you follow a fixable broken link, but that won't work if JS isn't allowed)
  195. # [11:41] <Hixie> maybe gsnedders can make his spec gen script generate stable ids using some sort of stored state or something
  196. # [11:41] <Philip> MikeSmith: http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py just depends on an old version (or newer) of html5lib
  197. # [11:41] <anne> Hixie, still won't work if you remove a section or something
  198. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> Philip: there is no W3C policy against JS in pages
  199. # [11:41] <Hixie> anne: well if the correct response is 404, there's no good solution
  200. # [11:41] <Hixie> MikeSmith: really?
  201. # [11:41] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i was told to remove the script when i put up html5
  202. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> by who?
  203. # [11:42] <Hixie> i don't recall
  204. # [11:42] <Hixie> doug, maybe?
  205. # [11:42] <Hixie> i dunno
  206. # [11:42] <Philip> Is it possible to have custom 404 pages (with scripts), too?
  207. # [11:42] <Hixie> it would make sense that it be doug, since he was team contact, but if it's not a policy i doubt it would have been him
  208. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no idea. I've never heard of such a policy and I would be very surprised if there were one. Anyway, I can ask and get confirmation.
  209. # [11:43] <Hixie> someone at some point did say that it would be inappropriate to use scripts and/or alternative style sheets to provide multiple views on the html5 spec (e.g. one for authors vs one for implementors)
  210. # [11:43] <Hixie> but i don't recall who that was
  211. # [11:43] <Hixie> and it may just have been their opinion
  212. # [11:43] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/multipage/brokenlink.html#introduction
  213. # [11:44] * Philip wonders if that kind of thing is useful
  214. # [11:44] <Philip> (and http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/multipage/dom.html#introduction etc)
  215. # [11:44] <Hixie> Philip: just redirect automatically, don't require user interaction
  216. # [11:44] <Hixie> Philip: that's awesome though
  217. # [11:46] * Quits: mjs (mjs@70.137.131.51) (Quit: mjs)
  218. # [11:46] * Philip tries to remember why he didn't redirect automatically
  219. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> I'll look the spec-splitter.py script. If all I need is that, I can take care of getting it installed somewhere myself
  220. # [11:48] <Philip> MikeSmith: If you're going to use the script, I'd like to update it a bit first, since its output is quite ugly at the moment
  221. # [11:48] <anne> Hixie, I guess you could go complex and put a 410 there with a reason for deleting the page, etc.
  222. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> . me sees doc = parser.parse(open(sys.argv[1]) .. so I can just run this thing manually from the command line, right?
  223. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> Philip: sure, just let me know
  224. # [11:49] <Hixie> nne: you can't really return a 404 or 410 since you need the fragment identifier to make the decision
  225. # [11:49] <Philip> (Also I should probably make it use a newer version of html5lib, instead of e.g. having its own serialiser)
  226. # [11:49] <Hixie> +a
  227. # [11:49] * Zakim wonders where a is
  228. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> let me know when you've got a new version ready
  229. # [11:49] <Hixie> Zakim, bye
  230. # [11:49] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  231. # [11:50] <Philip> MikeSmith: "./spec-splitter.py Overview.html multipage", where the directory called "multipage" exists and preferably is empty
  232. # [11:50] <Philip> Er, "python spec-splitter.py ..."
  233. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> Philip: thanks -- yeah, I see the open('%s/%s.html' % (sys.argv[2], name), 'w') part now
  234. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> so this does in fact look do-able in time for the WD next week
  235. # [11:51] <Philip> It should also print lots of error messages about #ref links missing, which is expected, but hopefully no other messages
  236. # [11:52] * MikeSmith prepares Makefile with target with 2>/dev/null
  237. # [11:53] <Philip> (It prints to stdout instead of stderr)
  238. # [11:53] * MikeSmith also prepares "Patches welcome." statemetn for anybody that complains about problems in multipage version
  239. # [11:54] <Hixie> actually the w3c version has all #refs links changed to point to the referenes section
  240. # [11:54] * Philip will make sure to complain about problems in the multipage version
  241. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> true that
  242. # [11:54] <hsivonen> is everyone who complains about the multipage version using IE? single page WFM.
  243. # [11:55] <Hixie> yeah the single page works great for me in safari
  244. # [11:55] <Hixie> less well in firefox, but still usable
  245. # [11:55] <Hixie> not so much in IE
  246. # [11:55] <Philip> Works for me in Opera except for find-as-you-type being really slow in 9.2
  247. # [11:56] <Philip> Fails miserably in IE8b1, but I don't remember any particular problems in IE7
  248. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> so yeah, have something readable/usable by IE8 users would seem to be something we'd sorta like to try to do if we can
  249. # [11:57] <Philip> How about a text/plain version? :-)
  250. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> hey yeah
  251. # [11:57] * Joins: myakura (myakura@125.207.238.47)
  252. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> no joke, actually
  253. # [11:57] <Philip> "lynx -dump" should work well enough
  254. # [11:57] <Philip> (if I remember correctly)
  255. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> Philip: yep
  256. # [11:57] * hsivonen makes progress on making the parser core only use very core Java features
  257. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> or "elinks -dump" or "w3m -dump" or "w3mee -dump"....
  258. # [11:58] <Philip> or "perl -pe's/<.*?>//g'"
  259. # [11:59] <Philip> How about PDF too?
  260. # [11:59] * MikeSmith always has Pavlovian twinge at the word "core" (from having worked in product-dev and professional-services/deployment stuff before...)
  261. # [11:59] <Philip> (e.g. for Microsoft people who like printing specs)
  262. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> PDF we ain't going to worry about for now at least
  263. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> Philip: Let them eat cake.
  264. # [12:00] <Philip> MikeSmith: They gave it all away to Mozilla a while back
  265. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> heh
  266. # [12:01] <anne> there's a WHATWG PDF version
  267. # [12:01] <anne> I seriously hope nobody is printing the spec though
  268. # [12:01] <anne> that's very bad
  269. # [12:02] <Philip> (Hmm, "a while" = almost two years - time passes too quickly :-( )
  270. # [12:02] <Hixie> there is no cake
  271. # [12:13] <anne> (also added IRI / lang empty string to the html5-diff on request of Frank Ellermann)
  272. # [12:13] <Hixie> ?
  273. # [12:13] <Hixie> oh
  274. # [12:13] <Hixie> nm
  275. # [12:30] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  276. # [12:30] <beowulf> someone say cake?
  277. # [13:07] * myakura found an extra dot after the section number in the 4th and 5th level section headings. but wonders whether it's just an editorial issue or not
  278. # [13:08] <Hixie> it's probably a spec generator issue
  279. # [13:10] <myakura> oh, i was beginning to think it's following some style guides :(
  280. # [13:17] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  281. # [13:20] <myakura> MikeSmith: http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/#rb that is not <rb>. it's <rp>.
  282. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> myakura: oofs
  283. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> myakura: thanks. just checked in the correction
  284. # [13:28] <myakura> np~
  285. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> btw, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2008May/
  286. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> new list for automated notifications of changes to the HTML5 spec
  287. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> and related documents
  288. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> each time a change is made to the spec, a full HTML diff of it gets automatically generated and posted there
  289. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> correction: only a link gets posted there
  290. # [13:30] <Hixie> ncie
  291. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> the actual diffs are all here:
  292. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> http://people.w3.org/mike/diffs/html5/spec/
  293. # [13:31] <Philip> MikeSmith: Character encoding is broken
  294. # [13:31] <Philip> ...on pages like http://people.w3.org/mike/diffs/html5/spec/Overview.1.899.html
  295. # [13:31] <Philip> (See e.g. the copyright line)
  296. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> Philip: yeah, dunno how to fix that
  297. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> artifact of the diff generator I guess
  298. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> I will try to troubleshoot it when I can
  299. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> other thing is, diffs of the pubnotes doc are all broken
  300. # [13:32] <myakura> whoa, nice.
  301. # [13:32] <Philip> MikeSmith: Are you passing UTF-8 or ISO-8859-1 content to the diff generator?
  302. # [13:32] <Philip> (or does that make no difference?)
  303. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> Philip: UTF-8 is what the charset in the sources has
  304. # [13:33] <MikeSmith> as far as I know
  305. # [13:33] <Philip> Looks like the output is just 8859-1
  306. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> OK
  307. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> btw, feed of that list is also available (as with all W3C mailing lists)
  308. # [13:34] <Philip> Sufficiently funny letters (Japanese etc) seem to be done with &#etc;, so it's not losing any information, so perhaps you could just change the diffs to be served as iso-8859-1?
  309. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/feed.rss
  310. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> Philip: will try that
  311. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> probably not tonight but next week
  312. # [13:35] <deane> MikeSmith: typo, From: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/ a new HTL diff is automatically generated
  313. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> I will also be setting up twitter notifications
  314. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> deane: thanks
  315. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> will change that now
  316. # [13:36] <anne> MikeSmith, the W3C equivalent of WHATWG?
  317. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> anne: you mean the twitter?
  318. # [13:37] <deane> Does anyone know if the W3C has a more up to date version of webforms 2 than: http://www.w3.org/TR/web-forms-2/
  319. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> deane: typo fixed in db (but there is lag before it gets propogated)
  320. # [13:38] <anne> MikeSmith, yes
  321. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/web-forms-2/
  322. # [13:38] <anne> deane, there's the W3C editor's draft of WF2
  323. # [13:38] <anne> MikeSmith, also, http://people.w3.org/mike/diffs/html5/html4-differences/Overview.1.45.html has the wrong encoding
  324. # [13:38] <deane> anne: cool, thanks
  325. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> anne: OK. I have my script using the online htmldiff generator, which doesn't provide any knobs I can turn
  326. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> ... but I guess I will change it
  327. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> ... to call the htmldiff tool locally
  328. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> from command line
  329. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> (it's just a perl script)
  330. # [13:40] <anne> MikeSmith, maybe use AddDefaultCharset UTF-8 in some .htaccess somewhere?
  331. # [13:40] * anne thought his documents are ASCII-compatible
  332. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> anne: but seems the issue is that the htmldiff is generating output in ISO-8859-1
  333. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> I think that's what I need to fix
  334. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> make it generate UTF-8
  335. # [13:42] <anne> i see
  336. # [13:42] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.114.53) (Connection reset by peer)
  337. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> anne: http://twitter.com/html5
  338. # [13:43] * Joins: tH (Rob@87.102.84.180)
  339. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> I had that working sorta for a while
  340. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> but I broke it because of change I made to the diff-generator script
  341. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> will get it working again next week
  342. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> or maybe tonight if I can manage to stay awake
  343. # [13:44] <anne> you should probably filter out either .html or .src.html versions
  344. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> yeah, I guess .src.html
  345. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> because the .html ones are the ones people want to read the diffs for
  346. # [13:45] <Philip> I think it's good to keep both, since the plain-text diffs of .src.html are often less noisy, but the HTML diffs of .html are more useful since they've got all the relevant processing applied
  347. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> whole point of me taking time to set it up being just to provide the difss
  348. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> Philip: yeah, true also
  349. # [13:46] <Hixie> mikesmith: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/pubrules-conformance-report.html
  350. # [13:46] <Hixie> MikeSmith: looks like a lot of false negatives
  351. # [13:46] <Hixie> along with some real ones
  352. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> Philip: and if something changes in TOC, can cause lots of noise
  353. # [13:46] <Hixie> but it's hard to tell what's real from what's not
  354. # [13:46] <Philip> e.g. adding a section at the top of the spec can cause dozens of IDs and hundreds of ID references to change in the .html version, so the .src.html diffs are far nicer
  355. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: looking now
  356. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> "Last style sheet called is" thing I remember seeing before, known issue
  357. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> errors about boilerplate also, known issue
  358. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie: mostly looks OK otherwise
  359. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> some of those I think I can make it shut up a bit after some manual tweaks
  360. # [13:49] <Hixie> so just need to tweak the stylesheet to WD instead of ED?
  361. # [13:49] <Hixie> k
  362. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> others (boilerplace), webmaster will need to eyeball-confirm
  363. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> because that stuff looks correct as-is to me
  364. # [13:50] * Parts: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
  365. # [13:50] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.15.218)
  366. # [13:50] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
  367. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, for now just tweaking the stylesheet OK is enough, I think
  368. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> I'll look through the rest later to so if there's actually anything wrong there
  369. # [13:52] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.112) (Ping timeout)
  370. # [13:52] <Hixie> k
  371. # [13:52] <Hixie> i'll wait til next week to do the changes
  372. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> OK
  373. # [14:07] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.112)
  374. # [14:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: Unless you have multiple defs of the same term (which will be a fatal error when I get round to it), of identical headers, the generated ID should stay the same
  375. # [14:14] <gsnedders> s/of id/or id/
  376. # [14:15] <Hixie> are the ids very long then?
  377. # [14:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: If they describe a long term, yes.
  378. # [14:16] <Hixie> that might be an issue to some people
  379. # [14:16] <Hixie> though not really me
  380. # [14:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: Unlike the "real" spec-gen there's no length limit
  381. # [14:16] <gsnedders> And I don't really want to add one
  382. # [14:16] * MikeSmith reads http://people.w3.org/mike/diffs/html5/spec/Overview.1.901.html
  383. # [14:16] <gsnedders> It makes them easier to guess if they are the whole string
  384. # [14:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: Besides, I'm writing this so I have something that I can use myself. I don't care if it's an issue for others :P
  385. # [14:17] <Hixie> :-)
  386. # [14:18] <gsnedders> (the fact I want it to cope with HTML 5 is so I have proof it works fine on real documents, and large ones)
  387. # [14:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: There's been a fair amount of work that people (mainly Philip, though to a lesser extent me as well) have done on html5lib to get it a fair bit quicker when parsing the spec
  388. # [14:20] * Philip didn't do much work on that, and only changed a couple of things in it
  389. # [14:20] <gsnedders> Philip: Well, in terms of the performance difference they made, you did far more over the past few days :)
  390. # [14:21] <Philip> It was only something like 30% in my testing
  391. # [14:22] <Philip> hsivonen still wins hugely on performance :-)
  392. # [14:22] <gsnedders> Philip: 30% of something that's 22s is still a fair bit :)
  393. # [14:22] <gsnedders> Philip: Peh! He's a cheat! He used Java! :P
  394. # [14:22] * matt is now known as matt2MIT
  395. # [14:22] * Quits: matt2MIT (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt2MIT)
  396. # [14:22] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.253.193.147)
  397. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> Hixie: how does showNotification() relate to Gears?
  398. # [14:23] <hsivonen> gsnedders: and in the old days people complained that Java was too slow...
  399. # [14:24] <Philip> hsivonen: That's because it was :-p
  400. # [14:24] <Hixie> MikeSmith: http://code.google.com/p/google-gears/wiki/NotificationAPI
  401. # [14:24] <gsnedders> But was it ever worse than Python?
  402. # [14:24] * anne replies yet again to the ARIA disaster, despite knowing better
  403. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks
  404. # [14:24] <hsivonen> gsnedders: IIRC, Jython was originally created to do Python-based number crunching faster than with CPython
  405. # [14:24] <Philip> gsnedders: It probably had worse startup time than Python
  406. # [14:24] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah, that is right
  407. # [14:26] <anne> whoa, the gears stuff is complicated
  408. # [14:26] <Philip> and I guess it used to be slower than Python is nowadays, because of hardware improvements
  409. # [14:27] <hsivonen> let's see if this goes somewhere: http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit/browse_thread/thread/147f9b261cf5aee3
  410. # [14:28] * gsnedders finds there's a major, major, major issue with http-parsing
  411. # [14:28] <gsnedders> "X-F oo" throws a fatal error on a non-strict parser.
  412. # [14:35] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.112) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  413. # [14:38] * Philip wonders if Henry is overestimating the size of "the application/...+xml universe"
  414. # [14:43] * anne replied to that one as well
  415. # [14:48] <hsivonen> HT seemed to ignore the hugely relevant point Maciej made regarding *software* architecture that assumes dispatch on URI,local pair
  416. # [14:49] <hsivonen> anne: thanks for replying
  417. # [14:55] <anne> yeah, and forgets that namespaces also need bilateral agreement between WGs
  418. # [14:55] <anne> XLink for instance
  419. # [14:56] <hsivonen> he also ignored your priority of constituencies point
  420. # [14:56] <hsivonen> and my transition strategy point
  421. # [15:09] <aaronlev> hi ignores the points because they can't be addressed
  422. # [15:09] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  423. # [15:09] * Joins: Dashimon (noone@80.202.223.30)
  424. # [15:09] * Quits: Dashiva (noone@80.202.223.30) (Ping timeout)
  425. # [15:09] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
  426. # [15:12] * Quits: Yudai (Yudai@59.146.88.195) (Ping timeout)
  427. # [15:12] <anne> he ignores most of the e-mails sent and only replies to specifics
  428. # [15:12] <anne> that's pretty crappy
  429. # [15:22] * anne stops his fire & motion tactics and goes back to work
  430. # [15:23] <anne> MikeSmith, for section 6.2 in pubnotes, basically the server-sent events format was rewritten
  431. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> anne: looking now
  432. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> anne: how's the following?
  433. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> [[
  434. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> In this section, the
  435. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> specification for the server-sent events format was rewritten; among the
  436. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> specific changes made were the addition of language related to
  437. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> reconnection time and the last event ID string, and extensive changes to
  438. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> the “Interpreting an event stream” subsection.
  439. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> ]]
  440. # [15:37] <anne> k
  441. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> thanks
  442. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> if anything else in the doc looks strange/wrongyou got any other changes, definitely
  443. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> oops
  444. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> fat-fingered
  445. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> if anything else in the doc looks strange/wrong/dump, or if you got any other changes, definitely let me know
  446. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> dumbbbb
  447. # [15:40] <anne> k :)
  448. # [15:49] <anne> i'll take a better look
  449. # [15:54] <anne> "The following attributes were added to the definition of the HTMLDocument interface:" it lists several but doesn't list readyState and defaultCharset which are mentioned later anyway
  450. # [15:57] <anne> "Section 3.8.5 [moved], The blockquote element" says [moved] where everything else says [now ...]
  451. # [15:57] <anne> or [was ...] as it turns out
  452. # [15:57] <hsivonen> whoa. Eclipse puts escaped XML inside XML attributes
  453. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> anne: looking at readyState part now
  454. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> about [moved] vs. [now], yeah, I should have made that consistent but don't know if worth the time to change now
  455. # [16:01] <anne> it's a single [moved]
  456. # [16:01] <anne> either [was ...] or [now ...] would help
  457. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  458. # [16:05] * Joins: Yudai (Yudai@59.146.88.195)
  459. # [16:15] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.84.180) (Quit: reboot)
  460. # [16:15] * tlr is now known as brb
  461. # [16:15] * brb is now known as tlr-brb
  462. # [16:16] * tlr-brb is now known as tlr
  463. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> so big news just now from Kevin Lawyer over twitter: moving from AOL to "small company to go build Rails apps, scale up a team and infrastructure and be awesome."
  464. # [16:20] <anne> all the cool people have left/are leaving AOL?
  465. # [16:21] <anne> MikeSmith, http://people.w3.org/mike/diffs/html5/pubnotes/Overview.1.222.html sometimes gives proxy errors (and similar URIs)
  466. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, I know. Not sure why. Seems like it's doing it consistently, at least (not just sometimes)
  467. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> I mean all HTMLdiffs my script generates from the pubnotes doc never succeed
  468. # [16:25] <anne> i got some that worked
  469. # [16:25] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.253.193.147) (Ping timeout)
  470. # [16:26] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.66)
  471. # [16:30] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.253.193.147)
  472. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> anne: OK, added readyState and defaultCharset to list, and changed the [moved] to a [now ..]
  473. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> thanks for catching those
  474. # [16:36] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.57.150)
  475. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> Philip: I now have the script filtering out "src.html" so that it doesn't try to generate HTML diffs of them nor post notifications to the public-html-diffs list
  476. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> but diffs of those do still go to public-html-commits
  477. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> I also have the html5 twitter set so that it only notifies of changes to html5/spec/Overview.html (that is, the spec itself) and not other stuff (pubnotes or html5-differences doc or whatever else)
  478. # [16:43] <takkaria> what does Dave Hyatt actually do as co-editor on the HTML5 except keep up appearances?
  479. # [16:44] * Joins: tH (Rob@87.102.84.180)
  480. # [16:45] <anne> discuss stuff with Hixie I believe, but he hasn't actually made a single edit, indeed...
  481. # [16:56] <takkaria> ah, ok, I just didn't think I'd seen him say anything since the beginning of the WG
  482. # [16:57] <anne> Hixie mentions it when he discussed something with hyatt
  483. # [16:57] <anne> e.g. the naming of the XML serialization
  484. # [16:57] <anne> designing <datagrid>, and such
  485. # [16:58] <anne> though admittedly we really have a single editor :)
  486. # [16:59] <hsivonen> anne: no, no, we have two editors :-)
  487. # [17:00] <anne> fair enough
  488. # [17:00] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@217.154.74.207)
  489. # [17:01] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@217.154.74.207) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  490. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> It does seem to not make much sense to have Dave listed as co-editor if he hasn't made any direct edits to the spec.
  491. # [17:02] <anne> i'd rather not overturn the two editor decision
  492. # [17:03] <hsivonen> we have two editors :-)
  493. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> Whatever. Anybody who's following the work knows well that's really not the actual state of things, so continuing to assert it doesn't really help the case.
  494. # [17:06] * Joins: Dashimon (noone@80.202.223.30)
  495. # [17:07] * Quits: Dashiva (noone@80.202.223.30) (Ping timeout)
  496. # [17:07] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
  497. # [17:07] <anne> MikeSmith, which case?
  498. # [17:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it seems to me that trying to change the editorship decision would be counterproductive
  499. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> I think the editorship decision that was made was that there would be two editors actually working on the spec.
  500. # [17:13] <Philip> I remember it as mostly being about not getting stuck with no editor if Hixie got bored or died etc, rather than about trying to share the work, though I could be totally misremembering
  501. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> Philip: yeah, I remember that too
  502. # [17:14] <Philip> I don't remember it being for any practical reasons at all
  503. # [17:29] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbiab
  504. # [17:36] * Joins: billyjack (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  505. # [17:36] * Quits: billyjack (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
  506. # [17:37] * tlr-bbiab is now known as tlr
  507. # [17:44] * Quits: myakura (myakura@125.207.238.47) (Quit: Leaving...)
  508. # [17:45] * Joins: hober (ted@206.212.254.2)
  509. # [18:00] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
  510. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/29-html-wg-irc#T15-56-52
  511. # [18:01] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  512. # [18:01] <DanC> Zakim, this will be HTML
  513. # [18:01] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
  514. # [18:01] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  515. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Julian
  516. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P3
  517. # [18:03] * Joins: Cathead (Josh@86.46.9.143)
  518. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  519. # [18:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
  520. # [18:04] <Zakim> +ed
  521. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  522. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, ??P3, ed
  523. # [18:05] <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-04-17T16:00:00Z
  524. # [18:05] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  525. # [18:05] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  526. # [18:05] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  527. # [18:05] <Zakim> +DanC
  528. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  529. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, ??P3, ed, DanC
  530. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, mute ed temporarily
  531. # [18:06] <Zakim> ed should now be muted
  532. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, ed is MikeSmith
  533. # [18:06] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  534. # [18:06] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be unmuted again
  535. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, ??P3 is joshue
  536. # [18:06] <Zakim> +joshue; got it
  537. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  538. # [18:06] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-04-17T16:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
  539. # [18:07] <DanC> I'm looking at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda for stuff to discuss...
  540. # [18:08] * Quits: Dashiva (noone@80.202.223.30) (Quit: Dashiva)
  541. # [18:09] * Joins: Dashiva (noone@80.202.223.30)
  542. # [18:09] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/154
  543. # [18:09] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-27 rel-ownership
  544. # [18:09] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  545. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> action-54?
  546. # [18:10] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-54
  547. # [18:10] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-54 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-05-29 -- OPEN
  548. # [18:10] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  549. # [18:10] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@217.154.74.207)
  550. # [18:10] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-31 missing-alt
  551. # [18:10] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  552. # [18:11] <DanC> agenda + publications
  553. # [18:11] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  554. # [18:11] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  555. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, joshue, MikeSmith, DanC
  556. # [18:11] <DanC> regrets+ Dave Singer
  557. # [18:12] <DanC> regrets+ Chris Wilson
  558. # [18:12] <DanC> DanC: I'm out next week
  559. # [18:12] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  560. # [18:12] <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-27 rel-ownership" taken up [from DanC]
  561. # [18:13] <Cathead> regrets+ Steve Faulkner
  562. # [18:13] <DanC> JR: I see the TAG is endorsing Mark N.'s Link: header draft
  563. # [18:14] <DanC> I find http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt
  564. # [18:14] <DanC> " This document clarifies the status of the Link HTTP header and
  565. # [18:14] <DanC> attempts to consolidate link relations in a single registry."
  566. # [18:15] <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aaaa
  567. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> DanC: proposed +agenda: WG policy on (excessive and unilateral) raising of issues in the WG tracker
  568. # [18:15] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is AOL
  569. # [18:15] <Zakim> +AOL; got it
  570. # [18:15] <DanC> Zakim, AOL holds Robert, Kelly
  571. # [18:15] <Zakim> +Robert, Kelly; got it
  572. # [18:16] <DanC> # Re: rel="contact" Ian Hickson (Wednesday, 28 May)
  573. # [18:16] <DanC> Re: Please add rel="timesheet" Ian Hickson (Wednesday, 28 May)
  574. # [18:16] <DanC> timesheet went to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
  575. # [18:19] <DanC> DC: getting things into IETF registries is not straightforward
  576. # [18:19] <DanC> JR: you don't have to register everything; rel="" takes URI values in Mark N's proposal. HTML could be changed likewise.
  577. # [18:20] * Joins: hendry (hendry@89.16.172.32)
  578. # [18:21] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  579. # [18:21] <DanC> JR: I expect a new draft from Mark N soonish; perhaps best to wait for that.
  580. # [18:21] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  581. # [18:21] <Zakim> agendum 3. "ISSUE-31 missing-alt" taken up [from DanC]
  582. # [18:22] <DanC> action-54?
  583. # [18:22] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-54
  584. # [18:22] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-54 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-05-29 -- OPEN
  585. # [18:22] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  586. # [18:22] <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
  587. # [18:23] <DanC> Joshue: folks have been busy so we're behind where we expected to be.
  588. # [18:23] <Cathead> Action item 54 delayed
  589. # [18:23] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@217.154.74.207) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  590. # [18:23] <DanC> DanC: I don't see much urgency; I don't think anybody is waiting for it; I just see deadlock.
  591. # [18:23] <Cathead> We may have collated the feedback and be able to produce a doc for the Wg by next week
  592. # [18:24] <DanC> agenda?
  593. # [18:24] * Zakim sees 2 items remaining on the agenda:
  594. # [18:24] * Zakim 3. ISSUE-31 missing-alt [from DanC]
  595. # [18:24] * Zakim 4. publications [from DanC]
  596. # [18:24] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  597. # [18:24] <Zakim> agendum 4. "publications" taken up [from DanC]
  598. # [18:24] <DanC> agenda + raising issues
  599. # [18:24] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  600. # [18:25] <DanC> MS: html 5 looks ready to go middle of next week; I have a thorough changelog
  601. # [18:25] <DanC> MS: and the Anne's diffs document is ready too
  602. # [18:25] <DanC> MS: and the Offline Web Apps intro is ready to go tomorrow
  603. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/
  604. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/#changelog
  605. # [18:28] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  606. # [18:28] <Zakim> agendum 5. "raising issues" taken up [from DanC]
  607. # [18:29] <DanC> MS: Gregory added 9 items to tracker; they look more like proposals than issues.
  608. # [18:30] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-issue-tracking/2008May/0003.html discretion in adding issues Dan Connolly (Thursday, 29 May)
  609. # [18:31] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Ping timeout)
  610. # [18:32] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-issue-tracking/2008May/0001.html Closing out old and "bogus" issues
  611. # [18:32] <DanC> ^ from Shawn Medero
  612. # [18:32] * Joins: Robert (robertgoni@64.236.128.9)
  613. # [18:34] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  614. # [18:34] <Zakim> -joshue
  615. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  616. # [18:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/29-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  617. # [18:34] <Zakim> -Julian
  618. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who was on the phone?
  619. # [18:34] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
  620. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> Zakim, bye
  621. # [18:34] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Julian, DanC, MikeSmith, joshue, +1.703.265.aaaa, Robert, Kelly, Laura_Carlson
  622. # [18:34] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  623. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  624. # [18:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/29-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  625. # [18:35] * Quits: Robert (robertgoni@64.236.128.9) (Quit: Robert)
  626. # [18:36] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.153.3)
  627. # [18:37] * Quits: Cathead (Josh@86.46.9.143) (Quit: Quitting!)
  628. # [18:40] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  629. # [18:42] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.57.150) (Connection reset by peer)
  630. # [18:46] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.57.150)
  631. # [18:49] * Joins: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146)
  632. # [18:51] * Quits: hober (ted@206.212.254.2) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
  633. # [18:52] <sampablokuper> \ping Hixie
  634. # [18:53] * sampablokuper (oops!)
  635. # [18:54] * Parts: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146)
  636. # [18:54] * Joins: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146)
  637. # [18:56] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  638. # [19:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: it appears that all of Gecko/WebKit/Opera allow documentElement removal and recreation
  639. # [19:09] <hsivonen> which is nice
  640. # [19:13] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.162)
  641. # [19:17] * Quits: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146) (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet)
  642. # [19:19] * Quits: deane (dean@121.98.128.155) (Client exited)
  643. # [19:22] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  644. # [19:32] * Joins: mjs (mjs@70.137.131.51)
  645. # [19:40] * trackbot-ng HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  646. # [19:46] * smedero waves to DanC
  647. # [19:46] * DanC waves from another telcon
  648. # [19:46] <smedero> gotcha
  649. # [19:51] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.153.3) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  650. # [20:13] * Quits: mjs (mjs@70.137.131.51) (Quit: mjs)
  651. # [20:19] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  652. # [20:42] * Joins: mjs (mjs@206.169.112.6)
  653. # [20:50] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@206.169.112.6)
  654. # [20:50] * Quits: mjs (mjs@206.169.112.6) (Connection reset by peer)
  655. # [20:52] * Joins: mjs (mjs@206.169.112.6)
  656. # [20:52] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@206.169.112.6) (Connection reset by peer)
  657. # [21:13] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.14.162) (Connection reset by peer)
  658. # [21:13] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.162)
  659. # [21:14] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@217.154.74.207)
  660. # [21:14] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@217.154.74.207) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  661. # [21:30] * Quits: mjs (mjs@206.169.112.6) (Quit: mjs)
  662. # [22:08] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  663. # [22:08] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.14.162) (Ping timeout)
  664. # [22:11] * Quits: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203) (Client exited)
  665. # [22:12] * Joins: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203)
  666. # [22:12] * Joins: adele (adele@17.255.106.128)
  667. # [22:18] * Joins: mjs (mjs@206.169.112.6)
  668. # [22:18] * Quits: adele (adele@17.255.106.128) (Client exited)
  669. # [22:19] * Joins: adele (adele@17.255.106.128)
  670. # [22:58] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  671. # [23:07] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@217.44.35.200) (Quit: Partying in teh intarwebs)
  672. # [23:13] * Quits: Navarr (navarr@76.247.247.31) (Quit: Navarr)
  673. # [23:39] * matt is now known as mattHarvard
  674. # [23:46] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  675. # [23:52] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
  676. # [23:59] * Joins: Navarr (navarr@76.247.247.31)
  677. # Session Close: Fri May 30 00:00:00 2008

The end :)