/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-06-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  36. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status?
  37. # [05:24] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 16 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Lachlan, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
  38. # [05:34] * Joins: smedero (smedero@66.114.145.154)
  39. # [05:40] <smedero> MikeSmith: Thanks for following up on issues #42-#50
  40. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> smedero: yeah, sending another message to Robert now
  41. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> thank you for taking time to try to make things clear to him
  42. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> and sorry for not stepping in before now
  43. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> I was away since last Thursday
  44. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> on vacation
  45. # [05:41] <smedero> No problem, it was just helpful to have a more "official" take on matters...
  46. # [05:42] <smedero> Did you get to spend time with your daughter?
  47. # [05:45] <smedero> Robert assumed I was dismissing his efforts entirely when I was focused on the distinction between lowercase issue and ISSUE-#... so my email needed to be better worded. I'll try to be more clear next time.
  48. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> smedero: Was not with my daughter this weekend but she and I will be taking a longer vacation together next month. And she'll be staying with her grandparents in Denver this summer for a couple weeks without me there, so she can practice her English without me around to translate.
  49. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> 10 years old now and she's keen on learning English
  50. # [05:49] <smedero> cool!
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  57. # [06:15] <MikeSmith> smedero: I think your mail was very clear. And I doubt that anything else you could have done to try to make it more clear would have gotten any different response.
  58. # [06:15] <MikeSmith> What I mean is, I'm not sure that Robert assumed at all that you dismissed his efforts entirely.
  59. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> Though I know that's what he said.
  60. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> His claim of being offended seems to me to perhaps just be a way to deflect some responsibility, and to try to turn the discussion into yet another unproductive direction.
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  71. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> short press release from #3 carrier in Japan today, Softbank (as Vodafone Japan before, JPhone before that)
  72. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> http://www.softbankmobile.co.jp/ja/news/press/2008/20080604_01/
  73. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> "SOFTBANK MOBILE Corp. today announced it has signed an agreement with Apple® to bring the iPhone™ to Japan later this year."
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  75. # [09:35] <anne> MikeSmith++ and all
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  78. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> anne: hei.. btw, I think the the delay with publication of the Offline Web Applications note was that we were waiting for the transition request to be approved.
  79. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> which it was not, as far as I can see
  80. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2008AprJun/thread.html#msg82
  81. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> I guess Jules forgot about that
  82. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think it's not a big deal
  83. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> But I will need to actually try to get it officially approved today
  84. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> ..now that it's already been published
  85. # [09:42] <anne> oh yeah, I was wondering about that
  86. # [09:42] <anne> doesn't seem like such a big deal
  87. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> anne: nah -- and good to have it finally published in TR space, anyway
  88. # [10:01] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.153.3) (Ping timeout)
  89. # [10:05] * trackbot-ng HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  90. # [10:09] * jgraham adds another MikeSmith++
  91. # [10:12] <anne> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/06/applying_svg_ef.html
  92. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, great writeup.. must have taken roc some time to put that together
  93. # [10:17] <anne> hopefully less than implementing :)
  94. # [10:17] <hsivonen> all the more reason to put SVG in the HTML parser
  95. # [10:17] <hsivonen> great to see flexbox advancing, too
  96. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> if it is actually advancing
  97. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> if there is on record a previous decision by to group to publish it in TR, then it seems like that should still stand
  98. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> unless there was some other later resolution that explicitly overrode that one
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  100. # [10:21] <anne> we can make a new decision, no?
  101. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> yeah, sure
  102. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> but if you can find the minutes that have the resolution that dbaron mentions, seems like that would help too
  103. # [10:24] <anne> true
  104. # [10:25] <hsivonen> anne: any news on xml:id an MathML 3?
  105. # [10:25] <hsivonen> s/an/and/
  106. # [10:25] <anne> it's an open issue in their issue tracker
  107. # [10:25] <hsivonen> ok
  108. # [10:26] <anne> there hasn't been any activity around it other than that issue being raised it seems
  109. # [10:26] <hsivonen> :-(
  110. # [10:26] <anne> well, hopefully open issues block last call so they'll decide on something and report back to the public list
  111. # [10:26] <anne> and if it's the wrong decision we can then complain
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  130. # [14:56] * myakura mistook the name as "-moz-box-sizing" http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc196965(VS.85).aspx
  131. # [14:56] <myakura> phew.
  132. # [14:59] <myakura> MikeSmith: are you planning to add a references section to the pubnotes?
  133. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> myakura: I hadn't thought about it. But I can. What should I put in it?
  134. # [15:03] <anne> they should just use box-sizing
  135. # [15:06] <myakura> MikeSmith: FPWD, SPWD and Web IDL
  136. # [15:06] <myakura> the latest public draft is still called as DOM-Bindings
  137. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> myakura: OK
  138. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> yeah, the naming of the Web IDL doc is still in flux
  139. # [15:08] <myakura> MikeSmith: and http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20080531#l-50
  140. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> I think the Web API group should probably just publish an updated WD of the Web IDL spec, with the new name
  141. # [15:09] <myakura> sweet.
  142. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> myakura: just read your comments in link to archived logs
  143. # [15:09] <anne> yeah, that seems like a good idea
  144. # [15:09] <anne> heycam, ^^
  145. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> I will get that corrected
  146. # [15:09] <myakura> :)
  147. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> hey hey heycam
  148. # [15:11] <hsivonen> why is -ms-box-sizing an attribute instead of a CSS property?
  149. # [15:11] <anne> it's both a DOM attribute and property
  150. # [15:11] <anne> (though MSDN might use different terminology)
  151. # [15:12] <hsivonen> are CSS properties in general available as HTML/DOM attributes in IE?
  152. # [15:12] * MikeSmith resists making the obligatory "It's both a floor wax and a dessert topping" comment
  153. # [15:12] <anne> no, not as HTML attribute
  154. # [15:13] <anne> as in .style.msBoxSizing
  155. # [15:13] <hsivonen> it says "<ELEMENT -ms-box-sizing = sModel... >"
  156. # [15:13] * hsivonen confused
  157. # [15:14] <Philip> Are you making the mistake of trusting the documentation? :-)
  158. # [15:14] * myakura has never seen those who are not confused with documents on msdn.
  159. # [15:15] <anne> hsivonen, that seems like a bug
  160. # [15:15] <hsivonen> umm. ok
  161. # [15:16] <Philip> Testing in IE8, <div style="-ms-bx-sizing:border-box"> has an effect, <div -ms-box-sizing=border-box> doesn't
  162. # [15:16] <Philip> (IE8b1)
  163. # [15:17] <myakura> "ms:box-sizing" perhaps? :)
  164. # [15:17] <Philip> and element.msBoxSizing is undefined, whereas element.style.msBoxSizing works
  165. # [15:20] <Philip> myakura: 'strings -el mshtml.dll' suggests only the strings "-MS-BOX-SIZING" and "msBoxSizing" have any significance, so I don't think anything like ms:box-sizing is going to exist :-)
  166. # [15:21] <hsivonen> hmm. upper case canonical form
  167. # [15:22] <Philip> Not necessarily canonical - just what they have in the source code
  168. # [15:25] <hsivonen> the Slashdot comments on SquirrelFish are remarkably non-nutty compared to usual Slashdot
  169. # [15:26] <Philip> IE8 has added things like -ms-scrollbar-base-color
  170. # [15:26] <Philip> (in addition to scrollbar-base-color)
  171. # [15:27] <Philip> (and -ms-text-underline position and a dozen others - presumably all their non-standard CSS properties?)
  172. # [15:27] <Philip> s/ine pos/ine-pos/
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  176. # [16:00] <myakura> (wonders if anyone ever suggested <a href="blah" target="_blank" sizes="400x400"> for popups
  177. # [16:04] <zcorpan> Philip: hmm, that seems unhelpful unless they plan to drop the nonprefixed properties, which i'd presume they won't
  178. # [16:05] <Dashiva> myakura: I believe so. But then there's a lot of resistance to even allowing target...
  179. # [16:05] <myakura> Dashiva: yeah..
  180. # [16:07] <myakura> well, i thought that markup would be easier for UAs to control opening popups
  181. # [16:13] <Philip> <a href="blah" target="_blank" sizes="400x400" position="100,200" scrollbars="no" menubar="no" ...>
  182. # [16:14] <krijnh> And after that, allow href="" on every element :)
  183. # [16:14] * Quits: trackbot-ng (trackbot-n@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  184. # [16:15] <Dashiva> Philip: We could use a single property :)
  185. # [16:16] <anne> krijnh, meh
  186. # [16:16] <myakura> then people would start saying "multiple urls in href?"
  187. # [16:18] <anne> yeah, until the language is so big that someone finally dares to suggest <kitchensink>
  188. # [16:19] <krijnh> Luckily then you jump in to request some use case for that :)
  189. # [16:19] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.30)
  190. # [16:19] * trackbot HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  191. # [16:19] <Philip> Use case: I need to wash some dishes
  192. # [16:20] <Philip> That's not currently something I can do with open web technologies
  193. # [16:20] <anne> IKEA!
  194. # [16:20] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.30) (Excess Flood)
  195. # [16:20] <krijnh> Or, if you publish some photos of your sink on Flickr, you can use <kitchensink><img src=""></kitchensink>, and drop alt=""
  196. # [16:20] <krijnh> That would be great for accessibility
  197. # [16:20] <anne> that does sound awesome
  198. # [16:21] <anne> <beer><img src=beer></beer>
  199. # [16:21] <krijnh> Combined with href on <beer>, that would be sweet
  200. # [16:21] <krijnh> -_-
  201. # [16:21] <anne> and the drink: protocol
  202. # [16:22] <anne> though maybe all that is implied in case of <beer>
  203. # [16:22] <krijnh> That's not backwards compatible
  204. # [16:22] <anne> for ease of authoring
  205. # [16:22] <krijnh> You'll need onclick="drink:foo();"
  206. # [16:22] <anne> who proposed that again? that was funny
  207. # [16:22] <krijnh> Proposed what?
  208. # [16:23] <anne> namespaced function calls or something
  209. # [16:23] <krijnh> Labels in JS?
  210. # [16:23] <anne> something else
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  213. # [16:24] * trackbot HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  214. # [16:25] <Dashiva> What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink
  215. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  216. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  217. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  218. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  219. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  220. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  221. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  222. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  223. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  224. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  225. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  226. # [16:25] <Dashiva> Um...
  227. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  228. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  229. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  230. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  231. # [16:25] <Dashiva> I think I broke it
  232. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  233. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  234. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  235. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'What if <kitchensink> was like <p>, but when the content was suggesting a feature that would count as the kitchen sink'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  236. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  237. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  238. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  239. # [16:25] <anne> trackbot, leave
  240. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  241. # [16:25] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  242. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  243. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  244. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  245. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  246. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  247. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  248. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  249. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  250. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  251. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  252. # [16:26] <Dashiva> It's probably gonna have to write another 15 messages before it parses the leave too...
  253. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  254. # [16:26] <krijnh> Dashiva: it only listens to you :)
  255. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  256. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  257. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'Um...'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  258. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'I think I broke it'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  259. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'I think I broke it'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  260. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'I think I broke it'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  261. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'I think I broke it'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  262. # [16:26] <krijnh> Heh
  263. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'I think I broke it'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  264. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'I think I broke it'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  265. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'I think I broke it'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  266. # [16:26] <trackbot> Sorry, Dashiva, I don't understand 'I think I broke it'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  267. # [16:26] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.30) (Excess Flood)
  268. # [16:26] <matt> I've mentioned this to systeam folk... sorry.
  269. # [16:27] <anne> I just did the same :)
  270. # [16:31] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.30)
  271. # [16:31] * trackbot HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  272. # [16:31] <matt> He's baaaaack...
  273. # [16:34] <anne> :)
  274. # [16:35] <Dashiva> Is it safe to speak?
  275. # [16:36] <myakura> Dashiva: Sorry, (snip)
  276. # [16:36] <matt> Yeah, just don't say "Um..." that's the code to make it self destruct.
  277. # [16:37] <matt> (Which can be stopped by entering 4 8 15 16 23 42 into the channel every 108 minutes)
  278. # [16:37] <Dashiva> I thought it was <kitchensink> and <p> that triggered that feature
  279. # [16:38] <matt> I was kidding.
  280. # [16:40] <anne> Lost is annoying
  281. # [16:40] <anne> we've to wait another few months to get even more questions without answers and about two years before it's supposedly done
  282. # [16:44] <matt> Agreed!
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  324. # [21:46] <anne> lol
  325. # [21:46] <anne> someone wants to reinvent the ARIA syntax
  326. # [21:50] <Lachy> what?
  327. # [21:51] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0093.html is the latest
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  329. # [22:01] <Philip> Given the lack of success in trying to change a single character of the ARIA syntax, more radical suggestions seem quite unlikely to do much better
  330. # [22:02] <anne> it's questionable which is more radical, but it's highly unlikely the concept will change
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  332. # [22:18] <Dashiva> I'm not opposed to the idea in isolation, but it requires a significant change in CSS as well, which is kinda a showstopper
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  334. # [22:21] <anne> it violates a core design principle of ARIA
  335. # [22:21] <anne> it's not backwards compatible
  336. # [22:22] <anne> it would require way more complicated scripting than simply setting attributes
  337. # [22:23] <anne> maybe we should consider introducing .role and .ariaset at some point
  338. # [22:26] <Dashiva> I boggled at the concept that allowing .dataset as a convenience access method makes data- a namespace
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  346. # [23:16] <Hixie> Dashiva: it does make it a namespace, in the strictly technical (not xml namespaces) sense
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  353. # Session Close: Thu Jun 05 00:00:00 2008

The end :)