/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-06-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 05 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:16] <Philip> Hmm, the latest IE8 beta newsletter appears to be only available as .docx, which I don't have any way to read :-(
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  5. # [00:20] * Philip tries unzip and s/<[^>]*>/ /g and s/ +/ /g, which does not give an optimal reading experience
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  8. # [00:52] <Philip> How odd, something caused all the checksums in the .docx zip to turn to 00000000
  9. # [00:53] * Philip blames Krusader or kioslaves or whatever it is
  10. # [00:54] <MikeSmith> Philip: you tried antiword or equiavalent?
  11. # [00:54] <MikeSmith> (to open the .docx I mean)
  12. # [00:57] <Philip> MikeSmith: Antiword doesn't claim to support .docx, and I don't know what an equivalent would be
  13. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> Philip: that was my sole idea :(
  14. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> I have no idea with .docx actually is
  15. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> what
  16. # [00:58] <Philip> It's almost OOXML
  17. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> ah
  18. # [00:59] <Philip> which everyone loves :-)
  19. # [01:00] <Philip> Perhaps the IE team ought to publish everything as HTML, because everyone loves that more
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  21. # [01:06] * matt is now known as matt2Home
  22. # [01:10] <smedero> Philip: if you want to email me that .docx file, I'll convert it to HTML for you. I'll run it though my Office HTML -> Markdown python script if you prefer plain text.
  23. # [01:10] <smedero> i tried to hunt down this newsletter myself but I can't find diddly on the IE 8 msft developer's website.... so I'm not sure where to look.
  24. # [01:12] <Philip> smedero: Thanks, but the open-in-text-editor-and-remoe-all-XML-tags thing at least made the text readable and there didn't seem to be many interesting images, so it's probably not worth your time :-)
  25. # [01:12] <smedero> ok!
  26. # [01:12] <Philip> smedero: It's part of the IE8 Tech Beta thing, so I think it's not publicly available
  27. # [01:13] <smedero> Ahh, yeah I no longer have access to an MSDN subscription.
  28. # [01:14] <Philip> I don't have any subscriptions to anything interesting - I just did what http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/05/ie8-beta-feedback.aspx suggests at the bottom
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  101. # [09:53] * MikeSmith changes topic to 'HTML WG telcon 05 June 16:00Z | http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
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  113. # [10:23] <anne> MikeSmith, so are we publishing today?
  114. # [10:24] <anne> or will it be delayed?
  115. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> anne: delayed. sorry
  116. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> working on it now
  117. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> appreciate your patience
  118. # [10:25] <anne> so we take today's snapshot?
  119. # [10:26] <anne> i'll quickly update html5-diff to mention the notification API
  120. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> yeah, please
  121. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> and yeah, I think we can go with today's snapshot
  122. # [10:27] <Hixie> let me know if there's any pubrules issues
  123. # [10:27] <Hixie> i think it compleis
  124. # [10:28] <Hixie> but the validator crashed
  125. # [10:28] <Hixie> so who knows
  126. # [10:29] <hsivonen> is the validator the last pubrules test? or does the crash hide other issues potentially?
  127. # [10:30] <Hixie> it's separate
  128. # [10:31] <hsivonen> ah
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  131. # [10:34] <anne> MikeSmith, if you let me know the date of publication I can generate a WD
  132. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> anne: please hold of doing it until I can figure out what that date needs to be
  133. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> it's more likely at this point that it will need to Monday and not tomorrow
  134. # [10:37] <anne> what exactly needs to be done?
  135. # [10:37] <anne> oh well, no rush
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  138. # [10:43] * trackbot HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
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  190. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  191. # [18:02] * trackbot HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  192. # [18:02] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  193. # [18:02] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  194. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-html-wg-irc
  195. # [18:02] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  196. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  197. # [18:02] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  198. # [18:02] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  199. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
  200. # [18:02] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  201. # [18:02] <trackbot> Date: 05 June 2008
  202. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  203. # [18:02] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
  204. # [18:02] <shepazu> Zakim, call doug-work
  205. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  206. # [18:02] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  207. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Doug
  208. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Julian
  209. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  210. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  211. # [18:04] <shepazu> Zakim, who's here?
  212. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, Doug, [IPcaller], Gregory_Rosmaita
  213. # [18:04] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, joshue, oedipus, Steve_f, robburns, smedero, Lachy, Julian, anne, zcorpan, tlr, trackbot, ROBOd, MikeSmith, tH, heycam, shepazu, Yudai, Philip, beowulf,
  214. # [18:04] <Zakim> ... gsnedders, gavin_, gavin, Navarr, jgraham, jmb, Dashiva, matt, Shunsuke, xover, krijnh, takkaria, wilhelm, Hixie, jeremy, deltab, hsivonen, DanC, drry, t
  215. # [18:04] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  216. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, IPcaller is me
  217. # [18:04] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  218. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  219. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Topic: Convene weekly HTML WG issue-tracking conference
  220. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
  221. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  222. # [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  223. # [18:06] <anne> Zakim, who is here?
  224. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, Doug, MikeSmith, Gregory_Rosmaita, [IPcaller], Laura_Carlson
  225. # [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see Laura, Zakim, RRSAgent, joshue, oedipus, Steve_f, robburns, smedero, Lachy, Julian, anne, zcorpan, tlr, trackbot, ROBOd, MikeSmith, tH, heycam, shepazu, Yudai, Philip,
  226. # [18:06] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  227. # [18:06] <Zakim> ... beowulf, gsnedders, gavin_, gavin, Navarr, jgraham, jmb, Dashiva, matt, Shunsuke, xover, krijnh, takkaria, wilhelm, Hixie, jeremy, deltab, hsivonen, DanC, drry, t
  228. # [18:06] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  229. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Chair: MikeSmith
  230. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  231. # [18:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  232. # [18:08] <smedero> Wow, there are a lot of overdue actions. :-/
  233. # [18:08] * oedipus thanks mikeTMsmith for drafting minutes regularly during the calls you scribe
  234. # [18:08] <smedero> most aren't toooo overdue though.
  235. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P11
  236. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Present+ Gregory, Laura, Steve_f, Julian, shepazu, MikeSmith
  237. # [18:09] * oedipus makes it easier to follow what i can't hear
  238. # [18:09] <anne> Zakim, ??P11 is anne
  239. # [18:09] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  240. # [18:09] * anne I guess I'm still muted
  241. # [18:09] * oedipus welcome, anne
  242. # [18:09] * anne prolly some Ubuntu thingie
  243. # [18:10] * oedipus waves to steveF, lauraC, and shepazu
  244. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> Zakim, IPcaller is Steve_f
  245. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Steve_f; got it
  246. # [18:10] * anne wasn't expecting the telcon to stop; sorry about that
  247. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> minutes of previous meeting: http://www.w3.org/2008/05/29-html-wg-minutes.html
  248. # [18:11] <oedipus> GJR gives big plus one to mikeTMsmith's bugzilla proposal (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/0022.html)
  249. # [18:12] <Julian> minutes look fine.
  250. # [18:12] <oedipus> HTML5 homepage question: what is source of the blockquote at: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/#issues? there is no "cite" attribute, and blockquotes were EXPLICITLY deprecated for presentational effect in HTML4 (and that has not changed with HTML5) -- if this isn't a direct quote from a referencable document, then it shouldn't be in a blockquote, which lends the appearance of it being an excerpt from an "official" statement -- if that is the case, then the refer
  251. # [18:12] * anne calls tag abuse on another line
  252. # [18:13] * oedipus tag team tag soup!
  253. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Scribe: MikeSmith
  254. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
  255. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> recapping last week's call
  256. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> we discussed issue-27
  257. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> issue-27?
  258. # [18:14] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-27
  259. # [18:14] <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- @rel value ownership, registry consideration -- OPEN
  260. # [18:14] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27
  261. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> also issue-31?
  262. # [18:14] <Julian> issue-27: haven't heard back from MNot yet.
  263. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> issue-31?
  264. # [18:14] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
  265. # [18:14] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Should img without alt ever be conforming -- OPEN
  266. # [18:14] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
  267. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> we also publications
  268. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> to summarize publications, I had planned to publish next HTML5 WD this week, but will need to move to Monday
  269. # [18:17] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Ping timeout)
  270. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> anne says html4-differences is ready to go
  271. # [18:18] * shepazu there goes anne with the foo-* syntax again :)
  272. # [18:19] <anne> MS: planning to make multipage the default version
  273. # [18:19] * Philip notes that html4-differences is hijacking the html4-* namespace
  274. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> I will propose to use html5-pubnotes as short name for the pubnotes doc, and get to ChrisL tonight for transition approval
  275. # [18:20] * anne notes that html4-differences is actually html5-diff in practice
  276. # [18:20] * Philip wonders if it could be renamed to html5-differences
  277. # [18:20] * anne it could, but why?
  278. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> Topic: Open issues and actions
  279. # [18:21] <oedipus> FYI: ACTION 54 (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54) updated to reflect current status of action item
  280. # [18:21] * anne shepazu it's convenient everywhere :)
  281. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  282. # [18:21] * Philip says to anne that html4-differences is quite confusing because it makes you (i.e. me) think it's talking about differences in HTML4 rather than about differences in HTML5
  283. # [18:21] * shepazu anne, when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail :)
  284. # [18:22] * anne opens beer with a hammer
  285. # [18:22] * shepazu lolz
  286. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> looking at overdue actions
  287. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> action-54?
  288. # [18:22] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-54
  289. # [18:22] <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-05-29 -- OPEN
  290. # [18:22] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  291. # [18:22] <Laura> Steve, Josh, and I have started work on a second draft for Action 54.
  292. # [18:22] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action54AltAttributeSecondDraft
  293. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> oedipus: I just updated... Laura is here
  294. # [18:22] * shepazu agrees about the color of the html5-diff name
  295. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> Laura: we have been working on the 2nd draft
  296. # [18:23] * shepazu with Philip, I mean
  297. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> ... waiting for more replies, beginning to incorporate comments me have received
  298. # [18:23] <Laura> We are beginning to incorporate First Draft Comments:
  299. # [18:23] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action54AltAttributeDiscussion
  300. # [18:23] <Laura> We are still waiting for a reply from PFWG for this action item regarding several issues:
  301. # [18:23] <Laura> http://tinyurl.com/48uyqv
  302. # [18:23] <Laura> http://tinyurl.com/3v68tn
  303. # [18:23] <Laura> One of the biggest changes is that we have removed the majority of the usage examples and code samples. Usage examples and code samples from the Action 54 first draft are being refined and most have now been submitted as Techniques for WCAG 2.0. If they are accepted, the action 54 document will link to them there. As Jason said in his comment, a format specification is not a tutorial. Including detailed guidance in ALT attribute techniques could be seen a
  304. # [18:23] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0082.html
  305. # [18:23] <Laura> The W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) is the accessibility authority.
  306. # [18:23] <Laura> Submission for WCAG 2.0. Techniques
  307. # [18:23] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/TECHS-SUBMIT/
  308. # [18:24] <Laura> Action 54 first draft
  309. # [18:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  310. # [18:24] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54
  311. # [18:24] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action54AltAttribute
  312. # [18:24] <oedipus> "the majority of the usage examples and code samples. Usage examples and code samples from the Action 54 first draft are being refined and most have now been submitted as Techniques for WCAG 2.0"
  313. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> ... we removed some use-case code samples (because it's not in our realm to decide what is accessible and what's not)
  314. # [18:24] <oedipus> awaiting review from PF
  315. # [18:24] * shepazu MikeSmith has difficulty understanding when things are stated clearly... I recommend you have a few drinks before talking to MikeSmith
  316. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> ... next step is we are already proposing to PFWG to comment on those and forward them to WCAG as guidelines
  317. # [18:26] <joshue> good
  318. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> oedipus: I'm working on trying to set up a specific HTML5-focused TF within the PFWG
  319. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> ... and Al has put out feelers to see who from the HTML WG might be willing to participate in that
  320. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> ... so that we can find a way to move forward and quit talking past each other
  321. # [18:28] * Joins: hober (ted@206.212.254.2)
  322. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> oedipus: action-54 will take some more time
  323. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> Steve_f: yeah, a couple more weeks
  324. # [18:30] <joshue> Yes, it will take some more time
  325. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> oedipus: I will communicate with Al about it later today and try to accelerate the process of getting the review back to you
  326. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> Topic: Action-56
  327. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> action-56?
  328. # [18:32] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-56
  329. # [18:32] <trackbot> ACTION-56 -- Chris Wilson to wilson to follow up with Forms WG to make sure they understand this plan of action by 5/1/2008 -- due 2008-05-29 -- OPEN
  330. # [18:32] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/56
  331. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: oedipus, anne: please give brief status on what the state of things are with the Forms TF
  332. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> oedipus: the status at last telcon was that the chairs were going to talk and change it to a 7-person TF instead of 6-person TF
  333. # [18:36] <hober> Where would the seventh person come from?
  334. # [18:36] <oedipus> that is what the chairs were to discuss (chrisW, danC, and JohnB)
  335. # [18:38] <shepazu> q+
  336. # [18:38] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  337. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> shepazu: work on this from the Forms WG side has been going on
  338. # [18:40] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features
  339. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> ... if the HTML WG members have not put work into [trying to engage with the Forms WG]
  340. # [18:41] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/
  341. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> anne: the HTML WG members have actually put work into it; e.g., Maciej has put forward a proposal
  342. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> shepazu: it should just be more bilateral
  343. # [18:42] <oedipus> GJR notes that Forms WG is working on specifics, HTML WG interpreted TF focus as more abstract alignment
  344. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, I agree
  345. # [18:42] <oedipus> q+
  346. # [18:43] * Zakim sees shepazu, oedipus on the speaker queue
  347. # [18:43] * Parts: joshue (joshue@62.77.173.27) (Konversation terminated!)
  348. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> anne: we've invested quite a bit of effort and if there's no outcome from the TF
  349. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> shepazu: the possibility remains that the HTML WG can engage directly with Forms WG
  350. # [18:45] <shepazu> maybe the Forms TF should be dissolved if it's not effective, and a new liaison should be attempted
  351. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> anne: forms are definitely in our scope
  352. # [18:47] <shepazu> if a group can't operate within the scope of its charter, maybe the charter is wrong :)
  353. # [18:47] <oedipus> yes, shepazu, yes!!!
  354. # [18:47] <anne> the charter says "Forms and ..." at the start of some bullet point in section 2.1
  355. # [18:48] <oedipus> it's not anyone's fault, but a misalignment of assumptions
  356. # [18:49] <oedipus> GJR plans on making a proposal to the TF and if fails, will bring proposal to chairs of HTML WG
  357. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> action-56?
  358. # [18:51] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-56
  359. # [18:51] <trackbot> ACTION-56 -- Chris Wilson to wilson to follow up with Forms WG to make sure they understand this plan of action by 5/1/2008 -- due 2008-06-12 -- OPEN
  360. # [18:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/56
  361. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> oedipus: by next telcon I will have posted something for discussion in the TF
  362. # [18:52] <oedipus> q-
  363. # [18:52] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  364. # [18:52] <shepazu> q-
  365. # [18:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  366. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> Topic: Action-58
  367. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> action-58?
  368. # [18:52] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-58
  369. # [18:52] <trackbot> ACTION-58 -- Anne van Kesteren to update public-html on Offline Web Applications extended-abstract, addressing a few bits of outstanding feedback -- due 2008-05-29 -- OPEN
  370. # [18:52] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/58
  371. # [18:52] <anne> close ACTION-58
  372. # [18:52] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-58.
  373. # [18:52] <trackbot> ACTION-58 Update public-html on Offline Web Applications extended-abstract, addressing a few bits of outstanding feedback closed
  374. # [18:52] <oedipus> q+ to ask if anyone has addressed aria integration into the XML serialization of HTML5?
  375. # [18:53] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  376. # [18:53] <anne> ACTION-58 resulted in http://www.w3.org/TR/offline-webapps/
  377. # [18:53] <anne> style attribute: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded.html#the-style
  378. # [18:54] <oedipus> um, shouldn't we be pointing to the W3C draft?
  379. # [18:55] <anne> W3C doesn't have multipage yet, doesn't really matter either way though, as they're identical
  380. # [18:55] <oedipus> not precisely - there is a difference in the patent policy for one
  381. # [18:55] <anne> that shouldn't affect review of changes :)
  382. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> A change was made to the spec to address the issue, and change was to the satisfcation of Daniel Glazman.
  383. # [18:56] <oedipus> when will W3C have a multi-page view -- it's been discussed for months now...
  384. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> action-61?
  385. # [18:56] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-61
  386. # [18:56] <trackbot> ACTION-61 -- Dan Connolly to ensure HTML WG responds to PF WG on Omitting alt Attribute http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0082.html -- due 2008-05-31 -- OPEN
  387. # [18:56] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/61
  388. # [18:56] <smedero> oedipus: it is being worked on - I believe the next WD publication will address it
  389. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> oedipus: I think this overlaps with 54
  390. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> ... Dan has been active in conversations with PF on this
  391. # [18:58] <oedipus> gjr thinks the "response" alluded to in 61 is ACTION 54
  392. # [18:58] <smedero> (oedipus: my comments refer to the multipage version of the spec....)
  393. # [18:58] <oedipus> thanks, smedero
  394. # [18:58] * Joins: mjs (mjs@216.27.178.204)
  395. # [18:59] <oedipus> implications of namespacing / aria syntax / embedding in HTML5 and the XML serialization of HTML5
  396. # [19:00] * Philip says that http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/wa1/multipage-w3c/Overview.html is what the multipage W3C spec will probably look like
  397. # [19:00] <oedipus> thanks philip
  398. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> action-64?
  399. # [19:01] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-64
  400. # [19:01] <trackbot> ACTION-64 -- Dan Connolly to update teleconference schedule to just one time -- due 2008-05-29 -- OPEN
  401. # [19:01] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/64
  402. # [19:03] <anne> DS: working on getting a document together for SVG in HTML integration
  403. # [19:03] <anne> DS: sorry it's taking so long
  404. # [19:03] <anne> DS: working on different proposals, no concrete pointers
  405. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Doug
  406. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> Lachy: you around
  407. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> ?
  408. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> action-34?
  409. # [19:05] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-34
  410. # [19:05] <trackbot> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-06-05 -- OPEN
  411. # [19:05] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  412. # [19:07] * Quits: mjs (mjs@216.27.178.204) (Ping timeout)
  413. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: I'm wondering if we could get Robert on the telcons
  414. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> oedipus: I will contact him and see
  415. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> Topic: Issue-43?
  416. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> issue-43?
  417. # [19:08] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-43
  418. # [19:08] <trackbot> ISSUE-43 -- Enhanced Client-side Image Maps -- RAISED
  419. # [19:08] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/43
  420. # [19:08] <robburns> I am here on IRC
  421. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> robburns: can you call in?
  422. # [19:09] <robburns> I'll try (not sure the state of my internet connection for voice)
  423. # [19:12] <Julian> Mike, you seem to drop off...
  424. # [19:12] <Steve_f> yes
  425. # [19:12] <Steve_f> any better? no
  426. # [19:12] <Zakim> +??P0
  427. # [19:13] * oedipus waves at robB - mike is chairing and scribing
  428. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P0 is RobertBurns
  429. # [19:13] <Zakim> +RobertBurns; got it
  430. # [19:14] <oedipus> Mike's bugzilla proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/0022.html
  431. # [19:15] <Steve_f> q+
  432. # [19:15] * Zakim sees oedipus, Steve_f on the speaker queue
  433. # [19:15] <oedipus> q+ to say tracker itself needs to be ternary, not binary (issues: raise, propose, close)
  434. # [19:15] * Zakim sees oedipus, Steve_f on the speaker queue
  435. # [19:16] <oedipus> micro-issues on bugzilla, meta-issues on tracker? definition of meta-issues?
  436. # [19:16] <Lachy> MikeSmith, yo
  437. # [19:17] * Quits: xover (xover@193.157.66.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  438. # [19:17] <smedero> oedipus: we aren't in full control of the W3C tracker software - the W3C systeam (mostly Dom) manages it and what states are in the system.
  439. # [19:17] <smedero> oedipus: raise was added when several other WGs needed a similar state, not just because we asked for it
  440. # [19:18] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I'm going to be taking a look at the authoring guide this weekend
  441. # [19:18] <oedipus> yes, smedero, but they recently "upgraded" the interface - i think the system could add a "proposed" issue state
  442. # [19:18] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.22)
  443. # [19:18] <smedero> oedipus: i just want to make the distinction for others clear - it is not like a self-hosted instance of bugzilla where we just go and configure it to our liking.
  444. # [19:19] <oedipus> RB: issues compiled from list discussions that had been dropped or trailed off; reason put together issues -- not individual proposals, but arose form conversation with other WG members but ignored by editor
  445. # [19:19] <oedipus> smedero, ok - systeam is overworked but pretty responsive
  446. # [19:20] <smedero> oedipus: agree on that. systeam is awesome.
  447. # [19:20] <oedipus> RB: what is difference btw these issues and the others in the issue tracker? why one more important than another?
  448. # [19:21] <oedipus> MS: not going to discuss on next week's call; will make decision about issues remaining open by then
  449. # [19:21] <robburns> zakim mute robburns
  450. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  451. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> q+
  452. # [19:22] * Zakim sees oedipus, Steve_f, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  453. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> ack Steve_f
  454. # [19:22] * Zakim sees oedipus, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  455. # [19:23] <oedipus> SF: need process guidelines for use of issue tracker -- what consitutes a raised issue?
  456. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> Steve_f: I would like to see some process whereby issues that people have raised to have [a clear route] for eventually getting into tbe Tracker
  457. # [19:24] <oedipus> GJR notes new issues are "Raised" not "Open"
  458. # [19:24] * tlr is now known as tlr-offortoday
  459. # [19:24] <smedero> yeah it is confusing... again we didn't have much say in the labeling
  460. # [19:24] <Laura> Perhaps the issue is that the issue tracker lacks known policies and procedures?
  461. # [19:24] <smedero> labels are shared across WG projects
  462. # [19:24] <oedipus> what is difference between raised and open -- they are distinct states, are they not?
  463. # [19:24] <smedero> yes
  464. # [19:25] <smedero> sadly RAISED == Bugzilla's OPEN (unverified)
  465. # [19:25] <smedero> OPEN == VERIFIED, picked up by Editor
  466. # [19:25] * Philip wonders why we can't have a self-hosted instance of Tracker, and customise that as necessary
  467. # [19:25] <smedero> I dunno... I asked that once but didn't get much of a response.
  468. # [19:25] <oedipus> good point, philip - guess it's the same impasse that leaves us stuck with MoinMoin
  469. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> issue-38?
  470. # [19:26] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-38
  471. # [19:26] <trackbot> ISSUE-38 -- Syntax of the style attribute -- RAISED
  472. # [19:26] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/38
  473. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> I think that maybe can be closed
  474. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: I will follow up with James about that
  475. # [19:27] <smedero> I should clarify that OPEN == Picked up by Editor, or WG as a whole (in the past that distinction has been left to the discretion of the Chairs)
  476. # [19:27] <oedipus> FIVE MINUTE WARNING
  477. # [19:28] <oedipus> smedero, so RAISED equals PROPOSED?
  478. # [19:29] <robburns> oedipus: that sounds like an adequate tier arrangement of issues already
  479. # [19:29] <oedipus> robburns, agreed
  480. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> Julian: my impression is that some of them or all of them have been discussed on the list, but the editor has so far ignored feedback from the HTTPbis WG
  481. # [19:30] <oedipus> MikeTMSmith, does RAISED equal PROPOSED and OPEN equal "taken up by editors and/or chairs"
  482. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> issue-33?
  483. # [19:30] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-33
  484. # [19:30] <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- spec requires non-compliant Referer header -- RAISED
  485. # [19:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/33
  486. # [19:30] <smedero> I don't have a definitive answer. I think we need some clarification on exactly how the Chairs+Editors intended RAISED to be used. RAISED was added when the Editors asked for some way to discern between things that were in-progress (active working going on) vs. those that they haven't reviewed yet.
  487. # [19:30] <anne> HTML5 only says not to include the Referer header, it doesn't affect the syntax of it, fwiw.
  488. # [19:30] <oedipus> smedero, sounds dangerously close to an "issue" :-)
  489. # [19:31] <anne> see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/structured.html#hyperlink0 for more information
  490. # [19:31] <oedipus> need syntax / semantic decision for chairs to make -- does raised equal proposed until opened by an editor or chair
  491. # [19:32] <oedipus> if RAISED equals PROPOSED then i retract my plus one to using bugzilla
  492. # [19:33] * Joins: mjs (mjs@216.27.178.204)
  493. # [19:34] <anne> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1234&to=1235
  494. # [19:34] <anne> change for ping= ^^
  495. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> anne: that relates to issue-33
  496. # [19:34] <Julian> thx
  497. # [19:35] <Steve_f> see ya!
  498. # [19:35] <smedero> I think we're having trouble separating a bugzilla style issue tracker vs. a high-level WG issue tracker that is largely there to help the Chairs+Editors+W3 staff facilitate to the WG: for instance a tool to help organize the weekly teleconference agenda
  499. # [19:35] <oedipus> bugzilla usefull for micro-issues and micro-discussion
  500. # [19:35] <robburns> bye
  501. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> [meeting adjourned]
  502. # [19:35] <Zakim> -Julian
  503. # [19:35] <Zakim> -anne
  504. # [19:35] <oedipus> thanks all, aloha
  505. # [19:35] <Zakim> -Steve_f
  506. # [19:35] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  507. # [19:35] <Laura> bye
  508. # [19:35] <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
  509. # [19:35] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  510. # [19:36] * Quits: Steve_f (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413])
  511. # [19:36] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  512. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> Zakim: who was on the call?
  513. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who was on the call?
  514. # [19:36] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
  515. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> each
  516. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  517. # [19:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  518. # [19:37] <Zakim> -RobertBurns
  519. # [19:37] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  520. # [19:37] <Zakim> Attendees were Doug, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, MikeSmith, Laura_Carlson, anne, Steve_f, RobertBurns
  521. # [19:37] * Quits: oedipus (47fa3ad0@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06))
  522. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> Present+ RobertBurns(last20mins)
  523. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> Regrets: ChrisWilson, DanC
  524. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  525. # [19:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  526. # [19:39] * matt is now known as matt2MIT
  527. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> jgraham: if/when you're around, please take a look at issue 38
  528. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> issue-38?
  529. # [19:41] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-38
  530. # [19:41] <trackbot> ISSUE-38 -- Syntax of the style attribute -- RAISED
  531. # [19:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/38
  532. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> ...and let me know if you think it can be closed out
  533. # [19:43] <anne> that mostly depends on the CSSWG presumably, meh, inter-WG communication sucks
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  537. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, I guess what's needed it is to get a reply from Glazou on record
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  548. # [20:16] * matt2MIT is now known as matt
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  563. # [21:36] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  567. # [21:49] * trackbot HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
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  570. # [21:55] * trackbot HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
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  573. # [22:03] * trackbot HTML Issue Tracking http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
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  577. # [22:49] <Hixie> who runs trackbot? can we ask them not to have trackbot speak whenever he starts?
  578. # [22:49] <Hixie> it makes like half the channels i'm in look busy
  579. # [22:58] <anne> ask #sysreq
  580. # [22:58] <anne> in #sysreq
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  582. # [23:00] <matt> It's not supposed to be coming and going like that. I believe it coming and going is temporary while the maintainer is updating it -- last day or two has been particularly noisy, sorry.
  583. # [23:01] <Hixie> oh i'm fine with it coming and going
  584. # [23:01] <Hixie> don't get me wrong
  585. # [23:01] <Hixie> it's just that when it talks i'm like "ooh! someone said something!"
  586. # [23:01] <Hixie> and i jump into all three channels it's in looking for insightful comments
  587. # [23:01] <Hixie> and then i'm sad
  588. # [23:02] <anne> i have that too actually
  589. # [23:02] <anne> maybe it should be silent when it joins
  590. # [23:02] * gsnedders hugs Hixie. Don't let bots make you sad!
  591. # [23:02] <matt> Thankfully we're introducing HappyBot shortly.
  592. # [23:03] <Hixie> hehe
  593. # [23:04] * matt wonders if the announcement isn't part of some bot policy (that I'm ignorant of) to let the channel know a bot is there or something.
  594. # [23:05] <Philip> I hope not, since I'm a bot and I don't tell anyone when I'm here
  595. # [23:06] <matt> I'm totally ignorant of IRC, and this is totally off-topic, but does anyone know of an IRC bot that can do logging, etc, but also privmsgs a user on first send letting them know their stuff is going to be logged?
  596. # [23:06] <Hixie> (oh i'm all in favour of the bot saying it's there when it first joins, or if it's been absent for a while, it's just when it reboots that it's annoying)
  597. # [23:07] <Hixie> matt: shouldn't be hard to do
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  599. # [23:07] <Hixie> but i don't know of one
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  603. # [23:14] <Dashiva> matt: That sounds like a regular IRC client with a "on join /msg $user You're being logged" script. Considering the frequency of autogreet scripts, it should be possible to find one for pretty much any client
  604. # [23:15] <anne> nickserv does that at least
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  607. # Session Close: Fri Jun 06 00:00:00 2008

The end :)