/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-07-24 / end

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  122. # [17:16] <DanC> the DTD thread seems to be mostly harmless. whew.
  123. # [17:16] <DanC> i.e. " Doctype on text/html Pages "
  124. # [17:17] <DanC> Ian raises a process point in the ARIA thread. hmm...
  125. # [17:19] <DanC> I could argue based on our charter that we're to work with WAI PF as is, i.e. even though their proceedings aren't public
  126. # [17:19] <smedero> Yeah, I didn't see any ISSUEs lurking in the DTD thread either. The wording in Section 8 doesn't seem confusing to most of the commenters on that thread.
  127. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> most interesting message of last couple days was Mikko Honkala message about Workers
  128. # [17:20] <smedero> I saw on #whatwg that Hixie is folding the Workers spec into HTML 5 already.
  129. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> the bigger issue is "ARIA specifications lack clear normative conformance criteria"
  130. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> I think
  131. # [17:21] <DanC> I'm sympathetic to the concern that ARIA doesn't say how it works with other stuff... these specs that say "we leave that up to the host language to specify" don't sit right with me somehow
  132. # [17:21] <DanC> folding in workers? sigh.
  133. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> smedero: URL?
  134. # [17:22] <smedero> I think so, lemme double check.
  135. # [17:22] * DanC is inclined to raise a requirements issue, but wonders about our requirements process a bit
  136. # [17:23] * DanC was ignoring the workers thread altogether...
  137. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> Mozilla seems to already be planning to implement Workers
  138. # [17:24] <DanC> I'm sure mozilla is doing lots of nifty stuff... but I don't want to manage standardization of all of it
  139. # [17:24] <DanC> I want to *finish* something soonish
  140. # [17:25] * DanC doesn't see Mikko Honkala message about Workers
  141. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0288.html
  142. # [17:26] <gavin> we are implementing workers, yes
  143. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> gavin: targeted for FF 3.1 final?
  144. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> or post 3.1?
  145. # [17:27] <DanC> ah... "worker", not "workers"
  146. # [17:27] <gavin> 3.1
  147. # [17:27] <Philip> smedero: I don't remember hearing anything about folding Workers into HTML 5 - as I understand it it's meant to remain a separate document
  148. # [17:27] <smedero> Ahh, ok. I'm having trouble finding the reference too ... so I'm just seeeing things. :/
  149. # [17:27] <gavin> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=437152 - wanted1.9.1+
  150. # [17:28] <gsnedders> No, he isn't intending on doing so.
  151. # [17:29] <gsnedders> Which is why he wants spec-gen 1.2 so then he can have multi-document xref :P
  152. # [17:29] <smedero> Ahh, right...
  153. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> gavin: cool, thanks for the link
  154. # [17:29] <Philip> (It needs some changes in the HTML 5 spec so that Workers can refer to it, e.g. so the Window object is split into parts that are and aren't accessible to workers; but the actual functionality is still all in Workers, and HTML 5 doesn't have any dependencies on that)
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  159. # [17:32] * DanC wonders about a short little spec for the window object
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  163. # [17:33] <Philip> DanC: Like http://www.w3.org/TR/Window/ ?
  164. # [17:34] * DanC hunts for spec-gen... surprised to find a spec-gen.xsl ... expected to find some C code by Bert
  165. # [17:34] <Philip> DanC: Apparently that attempt at splitting failed, so it got merged back into HTML 5
  166. # [17:34] <smedero> Ahh! That's the one I was thinking of. :(
  167. # [17:34] <DanC> wild... Ian Davis
  168. # [17:35] <smedero> DanC: see also - http://hg.gsnedders.com/hgwebdir.cgi/spec-gen/
  169. # [17:35] <DanC> Philip, do you know more about how it failed? just editors petered out?
  170. # [17:35] <Philip> smedero: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080724#l-103 ?
  171. # [17:35] <shepazu> DanC: yes, Maciej didn't have time for it
  172. # [17:35] <smedero> Thanks... there be my faulty memory.
  173. # [17:35] <shepazu> and there may be some technical issues
  174. # [17:36] <smedero> "<Hixie> Window is probably the most integrated part of HTML5"
  175. # [17:36] <shepazu> but nothing that I think couldn't be resolved... I'd have to refresh my memory
  176. # [17:38] <DanC> ah... that spec-gen uses html5lib. that makes sense. using XML tools for spec management is one of my favorite uses for XHTML (cf http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SGML/spec-mgmt ), though as long as you get APIs like SAX and ElementTree, the syntax doesn't matter much.
  177. # [17:38] <gsnedders> DanC: It should be possible to use XML with it, I just removed it from 1.0 because the support for it was badly broken, but I'll fix it for 1.1
  178. # [17:39] <gsnedders> DanC: Basically it can currently use either html5lib of lxml2's HTML parser
  179. # [17:39] <gsnedders> s/of/or/
  180. # [17:40] <DanC> most integrated part... surely the content model of <blockquote> is completely orthogonal to all the javascript APIs, no?
  181. # [17:41] * gsnedders needs to write docs
  182. # [17:42] <DanC> right... html5lib and lxml2 basically present the same interface. I really like the interoperability of XML tools, but (a) XML isn't really all that simple (compare with JSON) and (b) the market is software developers, which is in the noise compared to people typing in blogs.
  183. # [17:42] <Philip> (JSON isn't all that simple either :-) )
  184. # [17:43] <gsnedders> DanC: Well, I use html5lib with the lxml treebuilder :)
  185. # [17:43] <gsnedders> DanC: I just need some lxml structure to manipulate internally
  186. # [17:43] <Philip> (I've seen various problems in the html5lib tests cases (written in JSON) because different parsers differently accept/reject the same input)
  187. # [17:44] <Philip> s/parsers/JSON parsers/
  188. # [17:44] <gsnedders> Philip: Most non-browser ones tend to be fairly strict
  189. # [17:45] <Philip> gsnedders: They seem kind of inconsistent at handling things like Unicode characters
  190. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Philip: Odd.
  191. # [17:45] <Philip> e.g. some accept non-ASCII literal characters, while others require it to be escaped
  192. # [17:45] <gDashiva> It's a mess, I tell you
  193. # [17:45] <Philip> Also some accept "\'" while others reject it
  194. # [17:45] <smedero> Philip: Yes! There are probably 4 JSON parsers for PHP and none of them are remotely consistent on Unicode character handling.
  195. # [17:45] <DanC> the JSON spec is a grammar of about a dozen rules, no? do you just mean unicode hairballs?
  196. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Philip: I expect it's people not following the ABNF spec when implementing it :P
  197. # [17:46] <gDashiva> Some of them accept ', some don't. Some allow comments, some don't. Some allow pretty much anything JS can eval(), others don't.
  198. # [17:46] <DanC> JSON is sufficiently simple that lots of people just implement it themselves rather than grabbing somebody else's code, and they get it partly wrong. I'm not saying the whole JSON marketplace is simple; just that JSON, the language itself, is quite simple.
  199. # [17:47] <Philip> (Representing non-BMP characters (as escaped UTF-16 surrogates) seems an occasional problem too)
  200. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> DanC: as far finishing, I guess we don't finish until we have multiple interoperable implementations
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  202. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> seems like a lot of problems we are dealing with today are the result of others "finishing" something without really finishing it
  203. # [17:48] <DanC> I'd be happy to stick to sutff were we already have multiple interoperable implementations
  204. # [17:48] <Philip> DanC: I'd agree JSON is pretty simple, if you ignore how it works in reality ;-)
  205. # [17:49] <gDashiva> cjson even managed to get / wrong
  206. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> like George Bush saying "mission accomplished" 5 years ago or whenever
  207. # [17:50] <Philip> gDashiva: In what context did it get that wrong?
  208. # [17:50] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: But the war is over! :P
  209. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> DanC: unfortunately, if we want to remain relevant, it seems like we don't really get to choose
  210. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> witness the Workers case
  211. # [17:51] <smedero> Philip: If my delicious links are correct, this talks about the solidus problem in cjson: http://blog.extracheese.org/2007/07/when-json-isnt-json.html
  212. # [17:51] <DanC> the workers case is a fine example of somthing I think we should postpone to next time
  213. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> it gotted spec'ed because implementors were poised to go ahead with implementations of it regardless
  214. # [17:51] <takkaria> hubbub forked json-c, btw, because it didn't handle NULs in strings, amongst other things
  215. # [17:52] <smedero> doh.
  216. # [17:52] <gDashiva> Philip: It can't decode /, only \/
  217. # [17:52] <DanC> I don't mind somebody writing a workers spec; I mind trying to standardize it before we're done with <p> and <blockquote>
  218. # [17:52] <Philip> smedero: Ah, right
  219. # [17:53] <Philip> Aren't there, like, test cases for JSON that implementors can use?
  220. # [17:53] <gDashiva> Yeah, but they aren't testing json
  221. # [17:53] <gDashiva> They test whatever the test case author wants json to be
  222. # [17:54] <Philip> Aren't there, like, standardised test cases for JSON written by people who have a clue and are capable of reading the spec?
  223. # [17:54] <DanC> "test" does not occur on http://json.org/ . sigh.
  224. # [17:54] <takkaria> sounds like someone needs to specify a FST for parsing JSON :)
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  226. # [17:54] <jmb> takkaria: hubbub's sentient now? crazy
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  228. # [17:55] * takkaria grumbles about pedants
  229. # [17:55] * jmb grins
  230. # [17:55] * gsnedders grins
  231. # [17:56] * gsnedders waits for Philip to grin too
  232. # [17:56] <smedero> http://deron.meranda.us/python/comparing_json_modules/
  233. # [17:56] * gDashiva smirks
  234. # [17:56] <gDashiva> Oh, smedero's link is a wonderful example of the chaos
  235. # [17:56] <jmb> takkaria: in the case of the NUL handling, it's because I was a) too lazy to implement it properly and b) because it made wholesale changes to the public API, which is probably not what upstream want
  236. # [17:56] <gDashiva> Look upon the mountain of "features" described there, and despair.
  237. # [17:57] <smedero> Yeah, one could build a decent base JSON testing suite from Deron's work.
  238. # [17:58] <gsnedders> Basically, use demjson/strict?
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  241. # [17:59] <gsnedders> Long time ChrisWilson was here before he went afk :)
  242. # [18:00] <Philip> gsnedders: Basically, use XML
  243. # [18:00] <gsnedders> Philip: Because XML is unambiguously defined.
  244. # [18:00] <DanC> "to support reading UTF-32 encoded JSON as required by the standard ..." ugh... UTF-32?!?
  245. # [18:01] <gsnedders> UTF-32 is awesome!
  246. # [18:01] * Philip likes YAML when he doesn't have to care about interoperability
  247. # [18:01] <DanC> hmm... HTML 5 says "just say no" to UTF-32, no? or am I thinking of some other 32 bit encoding?
  248. # [18:01] * gsnedders avoids needing to be interoperable, by being an insulter loner
  249. # [18:01] <gDashiva> Also note how the JSON standard allows for infinite digit numbers and decimals :)
  250. # [18:02] <gsnedders> DanC: HTML 5 says UAs SHOULD NOT support it, authors MUST NOT use it
  251. # [18:02] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  252. # [18:02] * gsnedders shuts up
  253. # [18:02] <DanC> ah... my memory was right "Authors should not use UTF-32"
  254. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Julian
  255. # [18:02] <gsnedders> It's only should not for authors?
  256. # [18:02] <DanC> already? I'm off by an hour.
  257. # [18:02] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-bos
  258. # [18:02] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  259. # [18:02] <Zakim> -Julian
  260. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Julian
  261. # [18:02] <Zakim> +DanC.a
  262. # [18:03] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  263. # [18:03] <zcorpan> DanC: seems weird for json to use utf-32 when browsers use utf-16
  264. # [18:03] <DanC> json uses utf-16 and utf-8 as well.
  265. # [18:03] <zcorpan> ah
  266. # [18:03] <gDashiva> Does JSON specify an encoding at all?
  267. # [18:04] <Philip> \uXXXX-escaped values are UTF-16
  268. # [18:04] <zcorpan> Philip: i was just going to ask about that
  269. # [18:04] <gDashiva> Isn't that just XXXX codepoint?
  270. # [18:04] <DanC> yes, see 3. Encoding in http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4627.txt?number=4627
  271. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  272. # [18:04] <zcorpan> gDashiva: utf-16 code unit
  273. # [18:04] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  274. # [18:04] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  275. # [18:04] <gDashiva> Aha. Maybe stop talking about now that the telcon is on :)
  276. # [18:04] <DanC> and "However it is important to realize that JSON standard ultimately
  277. # [18:05] <DanC> defines a byte
  278. # [18:05] <DanC> stream, not a character stream—which makes sense considering
  279. # [18:05] <DanC> that JSON is intended as a data interchange format between languages
  280. # [18:05] <DanC> and platforms." -- http://deron.meranda.us/python/comparing_json_modules/unicode
  281. # [18:05] <Philip> "To escape an extended character that is not in the Basic Multilingual Plane, the character is represented as a twelve-character sequence, encoding the UTF-16 surrogate pair. So, for example, a string containing only the G clef character (U+1D11E) may be represented as "\uD834\uDD1E"."
  282. # [18:05] <gsnedders> Oh yuk.
  283. # [18:05] <DanC> yeah, Philip , that business of doing surrogates that way seem odd to me
  284. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  285. # [18:05] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  286. # [18:05] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  287. # [18:05] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-html-wg-irc
  288. # [18:05] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  289. # [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  290. # [18:05] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  291. # [18:05] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  292. # [18:05] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  293. # [18:05] <trackbot> Date: 24 July 2008
  294. # [18:05] * zcorpan DanC: it's what you have to do in javascript for it to work in browsers
  295. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Chair: MikeSmith
  296. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  297. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  298. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Mike
  299. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.425.646.aaaa
  300. # [18:07] <smedero> Zakim, aaaa is smedero
  301. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  302. # [18:07] <Zakim> +laura
  303. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, +1.425 is ChrisWilson
  304. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named '+1.425'
  305. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, 425 is ChrisWilson
  306. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named '425'
  307. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> hmm
  308. # [18:07] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  309. # [18:08] <Julian> Zakim, +1.425.646 is ChrisWilson
  310. # [18:08] <Zakim> sorry, Julian, I do not recognize a party named '+1.425.646'
  311. # [18:08] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  312. # [18:08] * Julian it was worth a try
  313. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  314. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, DanC.a, ChrisWilson, Mike, smedero, laura
  315. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  316. # [18:09] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Quit: zcorpan)
  317. # [18:09] <smedero> 425 was me. :)
  318. # [18:09] <smedero> as noted in above
  319. # [18:09] <smedero> I'm the other crazy person in Seattle.
  320. # [18:09] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  321. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> Zakim, pick a scribe
  322. # [18:10] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC.a
  323. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> hey, wait a second...
  324. # [18:10] <smedero> ;-)
  325. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> Zakim, pick a scribe
  326. # [18:10] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike
  327. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> scribenick: ChrisWilson
  328. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> scribe: ChrisWilson
  329. # [18:11] <Laura> Josh is on vacation for the next two weeks. Sends his regrets.
  330. # [18:11] <Julian> q+
  331. # [18:11] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  332. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P2
  333. # [18:11] <ed_work> Zakim, ??P2 is me
  334. # [18:11] <Zakim> +ed_work; got it
  335. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> any other agenda items?
  336. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  337. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> Topic: Convene meeting, review agenda
  338. # [18:12] <ChrisWilson> cw: did want to make sure people looked at tracker definitions:
  339. # [18:12] <smedero> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML
  340. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Topic: tracker status definitions
  341. # [18:13] <Julian> I was thinking about shortly talking about other specs starting to reference HTML5's "URL" definition (AC)
  342. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Julian: OK
  343. # [18:13] <DanC> it still says "PENDINGREVIEW = The Editor has reviewed arguments and edited spec to taste" but the editor doesn't have write access to tracker
  344. # [18:13] <DanC> q+
  345. # [18:13] * Zakim sees Julian, DanC on the speaker queue
  346. # [18:13] <Julian> q-
  347. # [18:13] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  348. # [18:13] <DanC> last edited 2008-07-23 21:34:40
  349. # [18:15] <sampablokuper> My apologies to the mtg; I'll have to leave around 17.25 BST.
  350. # [18:15] <DanC> "Tracker Action State Definitions" looks fine to me
  351. # [18:15] <Laura> Many thanks for reviewing and editing the Tracker definitions. It is important that people work from the same meanings to attempt shared understanding. It will aid in transparency of process and may help avoid future misunderstandings.
  352. # [18:16] <DanC> POSTPONED and CLOSED look good. e.g. "POSTPONED = The WG has decided ..."
  353. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> q+ to say I think editors probably SHOULD have write access - but issues and actions should only be closed when reviewed in telecon.
  354. # [18:19] * Zakim sees DanC, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  355. # [18:20] <DanC> q-
  356. # [18:20] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  357. # [18:20] * Joins: Cynthia (836b0066@128.30.52.43)
  358. # [18:20] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  359. # [18:20] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  360. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> q-
  361. # [18:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  362. # [18:21] <Cynthia> Cynthia switched phones
  363. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> q?
  364. # [18:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  365. # [18:24] * DanC hopes MikeSmith will talk with Hixie about marking stuff PENDINGREVIEW
  366. # [18:24] * Quits: myakura (myakura@222.145.138.216) (Quit: Leaving...)
  367. # [18:24] <ChrisWilson> will do edit to make sure it's clear chairs have responsibility
  368. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> q?
  369. # [18:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  370. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> Topic: "URL" definition in HTML5 spec
  371. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> "The defn of an HTML URL is an IRI, which allows non-ASCII characters."
  372. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> This makes them unsuitable for Access Control, since HTTP does not allow non-ASCII.
  373. # [18:29] <gsnedders> HTTP defines non-ASCII characters to be interpreted as ISO-8859-1, FWIW
  374. # [18:30] <Julian> gsnedders: correct, but you really want to go there for IRIs :-)
  375. # [18:31] <gsnedders> Julian: Well, it isn't worth much :)
  376. # [18:32] * Quits: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146) (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC)
  377. # [18:33] <DanC> 8.2.2.1. Determining the character encoding
  378. # [18:33] <DanC> any volunteers to make 8.2.2.1. Determining the character encoding a separate spec so XHR can cite it?
  379. # [18:34] <DanC> I'm interested to give it a try, though I'm not as expert on character encoding issues as others
  380. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> q?
  381. # [18:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  382. # [18:35] <DanC> there's a wierd "3" in http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML
  383. # [18:35] <smedero> I think Section 2.3 URLs references a different section on character encoding though...
  384. # [18:35] <smedero> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dom.html#character3
  385. # [18:36] <DanC> last edited 2008-07-24 14:58:41
  386. # [18:36] <DanC> +1 "Only the chairs should move actions to 'closed'. Typically moving actions from PENDINGREVIEW to CLOSED will involve review in the weekly telecon. "
  387. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> action-79?
  388. # [18:37] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-79
  389. # [18:37] <trackbot> ACTION-79 does not exists
  390. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> action-70?
  391. # [18:37] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-70
  392. # [18:37] <trackbot> ACTION-70 -- Chris Wilson to review/edit tracker definitions: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML?action=show#head-47c0b55d661dcf93f76d586ddbe292c9abc597e4 -- due 2008-07-24 -- CLOSED
  393. # [18:37] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/70
  394. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> action-71?
  395. # [18:37] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-71
  396. # [18:37] <trackbot> ACTION-71 -- Chris Wilson to bring up SVG/DOM issue on list -- due 2008-07-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  397. # [18:37] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/71
  398. # [18:37] <DanC> Topic: SVG in HTML
  399. # [18:38] <DanC> Zakim, is Doug here?
  400. # [18:38] <Zakim> DanC, I do not see Doug anywhere
  401. # [18:38] * smedero nudges shepazu
  402. # [18:39] * DanC gathers shepazu is napping; he asked to be called, but I'm inclined to let him nap
  403. # [18:40] <DanC> MikeSmith, did you say he intends to implement the SVG WG proposal?
  404. # [18:40] <DanC> ah. yes.
  405. # [18:40] <DanC> Andrew Sidwell <w3c@andrewsidwell.co.uk>
  406. # [18:41] <smedero> Andrew is working on Hubub: http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/hubbub/
  407. # [18:41] <smedero> "Hubbub is an HTML5 compliant parsing library, written in C. It is currently in development for use with NetSurf and is intended to be suitable for use in other projects too. For further details, see the readme.
  408. # [18:42] <DanC> q+ to clarify whether the proposal is to tweak the HTML 5 parsing algorithm or to require that HTML user agents draw circles and such
  409. # [18:42] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  410. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> q?
  411. # [18:43] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  412. # [18:45] <DanC> CW: good question; it seems to come down to whether the test says "you have to either draw the circle or show the fallback" or "you have to show the circle"
  413. # [18:45] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.218)
  414. # [18:45] <ChrisWilson> MS/DC/CW discussing testing, and the implications of embedding vocabularies
  415. # [18:46] <DanC> ack danc
  416. # [18:46] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to clarify whether the proposal is to tweak the HTML 5 parsing algorithm or to require that HTML user agents draw circles and such
  417. # [18:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  418. #
  419. # Session Start: Thu Jul 24 18:47:48 2008
  420. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  421. # [18:47] * Now talking in #html-wg
  422. # [18:47] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  423. # [18:47] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
  424. # [18:48] <DanC> (4.1. Well-defined Behavior seems to be relevant; doesn't quite say "optional features suck; don't go there." http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#well-defined-behavior )
  425. # [18:48] <ChrisWilson> MS: if it were up to me, I'd mandate SVG support
  426. # [18:48] * Joins: Krijn (krijnhoetm@24.132.241.253)
  427. # [18:48] * Parts: Krijn (krijnhoetm@24.132.241.253)
  428. # [18:48] <ChrisWilson> CW: not crazy - but we would have to mandate a particular version/scope of SVG, and make sure the test suite for HTML5 tests it thoroughly
  429. # [18:49] <DanC> (tracker crumbs: ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml )
  430. # [18:49] <Philip> It's the same as what happens if you do <script>document.createElementNS('http://my.fancy.spec/', 'circle')</script> in HTML - it's a well-defined operation as far as HTML/DOM is concerned, and we don't care how it gets rendered since that's somebody else's problem
  431. # [18:50] * DanC notes action-63 on MikeSmith is overdue
  432. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> Philip: it's not an SEP.
  433. # [18:50] <smedero> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0318.html
  434. # [18:50] <smedero> Al Gilman
  435. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> MS: Thanks Dan, ya been hepful. :)
  436. # [18:50] <Philip> (In relation to optional features, I've been (successfully) pushing to make the optional features in <canvas> be mandatory - options are annoying)
  437. # [18:52] <ed_work> regarding tests for svg in html, there may well be existing testcases from the CDF WG to re-use (depending on how compatible it is of course) and the SVG WG would surely help out too
  438. # [18:53] <DanC> (hmm... realizing I'm now supposed to do the W3C team coordination stuff... maybe I should ask again for help with table-headers)
  439. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> issue-35?
  440. # [18:54] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-35
  441. # [18:54] <trackbot> ISSUE-35 -- Need to define processing requirements for aria states and properties when used in html -- OPEN
  442. # [18:54] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/35
  443. # [18:55] * Quits: Cynthia (836b0066@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  444. # [18:55] <DanC> (since GR no longer has write access to tracker, his actions should be reassinged)
  445. # [18:55] <hober> re: issue-35, do the aria people know about hsivonen's aria/html5 integration work?
  446. # [18:56] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-35 aria-processing
  447. # [18:56] <hsivonen> hober: they are aware of it
  448. # [18:57] <smedero> DanC: Who should GR's actions go to? Someone else with Tracker write access who is also active in the PFWG?
  449. # [18:57] <DanC> MS: hixie's point about conformance seems more important than the point about openness (cf http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0300.html )
  450. # [18:57] <DanC> yes, smedero ... e.g. joshue
  451. # [18:57] <hsivonen> I sent a bunch of feedback in March: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2008JanMar/
  452. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0300.html
  453. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  454. # [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  455. # [18:59] * Joins: Cynthia (836b0066@128.30.52.43)
  456. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> "ARIA specifications lack clear normative conformance criteria"
  457. # [18:59] * Quits: Cynthia (836b0066@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  458. # [19:01] <smedero> Relevant section of current WAI-ARIA draft: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#impl_nonamespace "Implementation in HTML and other markup languages without requiring namespace support "
  459. # [19:01] <ChrisWilson> 1
  460. # [19:03] <DanC> ACTION: Dan follow up on WAI-ARIA markup thread, emphasizing the conformance point
  461. # [19:03] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  462. # [19:03] * RRSAgent records action 1
  463. # [19:03] <trackbot> Created ACTION-73 - Follow up on WAI-ARIA markup thread, emphasizing the conformance point [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-07-31].
  464. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  465. # [19:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  466. # [19:03] <ChrisWilson> any other critical business?
  467. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> Topic: Next meeting
  468. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> chair for next week is ChrisWilson
  469. # [19:04] <ChrisWilson> adjourned.
  470. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  471. # [19:04] <Zakim> -smedero
  472. # [19:04] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  473. # [19:04] <Zakim> -ed_work
  474. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Julian
  475. # [19:04] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208])
  476. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Mike
  477. # [19:04] <smedero> Enjoy your vacation MikeSmith!
  478. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> smedero: arigatou
  479. # [19:05] <Zakim> -laura
  480. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> will be nice to get out of the Tokyo heat
  481. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> and into the Denver heat
  482. # [19:05] <smedero> Come to Seattle where it is summer and uh
  483. # [19:05] <smedero> 60F / 15.7C
  484. # [19:05] <smedero> heh
  485. # [19:06] <gsnedders> Come to St Andrews where it is summer and 14°C
  486. # [19:06] <smedero> even better.
  487. # [19:06] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  488. # [19:07] <gsnedders> (oddly, I've managed to get more of a tan here than in Berlin)
  489. # [19:07] <Philip> According to the internet, it's 25C in Cambridge, but fortunately I'm in a nice cool building
  490. # [19:07] <gsnedders> Berlin seemed to be having a rainy summer judging from when I was there
  491. # [19:07] <smedero> For two days this week it didn't even get into the 70s... high was like 64 or 68. Rejoice! I think it was 93F~ on the east coast of the US.
  492. # [19:08] <gsnedders> Still the coolest day was 17°C
  493. # [19:15] * beowulf prefers the cold
  494. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> Zakim, bye
  495. # [19:17] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Julian, DanC.a, ChrisWilson, Mike, +1.425.646.aaaa, smedero, laura, Cynthia_Shelly, ed_work, [Microsoft]
  496. # [19:17] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  497. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  498. # [19:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  499. # [19:30] * Quits: hober (ted@206.212.254.2) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
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  524. # [21:37] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@85.179.204.118)
  525. # [21:47] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189) (Ping timeout)
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  528. # [21:47] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
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  531. # [22:14] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  532. # [22:21] * tlr-off is now known as tlr
  533. # [23:19] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  534. # [23:30] * Quits: Yudai (Yudai@59.146.88.195) (Ping timeout)
  535. # [23:45] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@217.44.35.200) (Quit: gsnedders)
  536. # [23:48] * Joins: Yudai (Yudai@121.3.112.31)
  537. # [23:49] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.103) (Ping timeout)
  538. # [23:51] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  539. # [23:51] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@217.44.35.200)
  540. # [23:53] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  541. # Session Close: Fri Jul 25 00:00:00 2008

The end :)