/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-08-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  12. # [08:31] <marcos> Latest standards suck vid (on GRDDL, HTML5, SemWeb): http://standardssuck.org/grddl-bridging-the-interwebs
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  15. # [08:52] <krijnh> Users were kinda lazy?!
  16. # [08:57] <Hixie> marcos: you guys need mikes :-)
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  19. # [09:27] <marcos> hixie, yep. I've got my eye on one but it's like $130 :(
  20. # [09:27] <Hixie> heh
  21. # [09:28] <marcos> Well, at least we managed to get two cameras... production values are going up a little at a time :)
  22. # [09:29] <marcos> Anyway, I think the content of the interview is interesting and hopefully you can more or less make out what Harry and I are are saying.
  23. # [09:29] <Hixie> :-)
  24. # [10:03] <hsivonen> Hmm. Harry Halpin puts URI-based extensibility forward as a solution to a problem related to the W3C Process
  25. # [10:03] <hsivonen> (having to reopen a WG)
  26. # [10:04] <hsivonen> It kinda sucks if authors have to deal with syntax that is there to work around the W3C's own process rules
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  29. # [10:05] <Hixie> but namespaces are good by definition
  30. # [10:07] <hsivonen> marcos: thanks. good interview. (though I would have wanted to hear a question about GRDDL violating the TAG finding of the Rule of Least Power :-)
  31. # [10:10] <hsivonen> I'm tempted to point out how the DC.Foo meta scheme stuff is a great example of a bad HTML extension, but I think I should write some software instead
  32. # [10:12] <hsivonen> I'm going to run some stats on SVG images found in the wild
  33. # [10:12] <hsivonen> what traits should I look for except:
  34. # [10:12] <hsivonen> 1) root svg without a namespace
  35. # [10:12] <hsivonen> 2) prefixed elements in the SVG namespace
  36. # [10:13] <hsivonen> 3) presence of prefixed attributes other than xlink and xml
  37. # [10:13] <hsivonen> 4) XLink bound to a prefix other than xlink
  38. # [10:13] <Hixie> what attributes <font> has when found in svg, what is the parent element when <font> is in svg
  39. # [10:13] <hsivonen> 5) Creator comments and categorizing the above by Creator
  40. # [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: good point
  41. # [10:14] <Hixie> what elements (as opposed to attributes) are found in what non-svg namespaces while in svg might be interesting too, from the point of view of seeing if any of the metadata things are going to break our svg-in-html scheme
  42. # [10:17] <hsivonen> hmm. I guess I should look for PIs, too.
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  44. # [10:23] <marcos> hsivonen, thanks :)
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  46. # [10:25] <heycam> hsivonen, what proportion of documents use internal subsets
  47. # [10:27] <hsivonen> heycam: good point.
  48. # [10:27] <hsivonen> heycam: interestingly, the output from Illustrator that does use internal subsets renders (but isn't conforming) with less editing under the commented out proposal than under the SVG WG's proposal
  49. # [10:29] <heycam> yeah i don't think any proposal is going to be able to do anything perfect with dtd trickery in there
  50. # [10:30] <heycam> hsivonen, proportion of documents that have embedded metadata?
  51. # [10:30] <hsivonen> the Illustrator output doesn't make any practical sense. It looks like it was programmed by someone who was on a mission to expose SVG consumers that don't use conforming XML parsers
  52. # [10:30] <hsivonen> heycam: do you mean child elements in <metadata>?
  53. # [10:30] <heycam> hsivonen, where's the non-conforming bit of the illustrator output?
  54. # [10:30] <heycam> hsivonen, yeah
  55. # [10:31] <hsivonen> heycam: the Illustrator output isn't non-conforming
  56. # [10:31] <hsivonen> heycam: but it looks like it's rigged to break parsers that aren't conforming XML parsers
  57. # [10:31] <heycam> hsivonen, ah
  58. # [10:31] <heycam> :)
  59. # [10:32] <heycam> it'd be nice to know proportions of documents that put definitions outside a <defs> (at least for those that it doesn't make a difference)
  60. # [10:32] <heycam> (i.e., for non-rendering elements)
  61. # [10:32] <hsivonen> and the fun part is that the non-XML proposal in the HTML5 spec handles it with less trouble than the SVG WG proposal that embeds an XML parser
  62. # [10:32] <heycam> that'd answer a comment by someone earlier about recognising <font> inside <defs> as <svg:font>
  63. # [10:33] <hsivonen> heycam: how do I tell if an element outside <defs> is a definition?
  64. # [10:33] <heycam> i'll give you a list of elements to look for
  65. # [10:35] <heycam> grr what's wrong with dev.w3.org
  66. # [10:37] <heycam> elements that define things that i'd expect clipPath, color-profile, cursor, filter, font, linearGradient, marker, mask, pattern, radialGradient, solidColor, symbol
  67. # [10:37] <heycam> s/expect/expect to be in a <defs>:/
  68. # [10:37] <heycam> tho personally i don't bother
  69. # [10:38] <heycam> assuming these tests you're adding have little overhad, i wouldn't mind knowing if people put html inside <title> and <desc>
  70. # [10:38] <hsivonen> heycam: thanks
  71. # [10:38] <heycam> also i'd like to know how many documents use the old 1.2 full WD's flow text stuff
  72. # [10:38] <hsivonen> heycam: how to detect?
  73. # [10:38] <aaronlev> hi hsivonen
  74. # [10:39] <hsivonen> aaronlev: hi
  75. # [10:39] <heycam> hsivonen, check for a <flowRoot> element
  76. # [10:39] <heycam> i have a feeling inkscape might generate such elements
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  78. # [10:40] <heycam> hsivonen, also, what proportion uses style="" vs the presentation attributes
  79. # [10:41] <heycam> and what proportion actually use stylesheets (just check for a <style> element)
  80. # [10:41] <hsivonen> heycam: OK
  81. # [10:41] <heycam> hsivonen, how about checking for strings inside a requiredExtensions=""?
  82. # [10:41] <heycam> might be interesting
  83. # [10:42] <hsivonen> heycam: OK
  84. # [10:42] <heycam> thanks
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  94. # [11:39] <hsivonen> heycam: do you have a list of 'presentation attributes'?
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  97. # [11:56] <heycam> hsivonen, take all of the properties in http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/propidx.html and http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/attributeTable.html
  98. # [11:57] <hsivonen> heycam: thanks
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  107. # [13:49] <hsivonen> heycam: is the study of definition elements only about font parent? or is it otherwise interesting to check it?
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  114. # [14:36] <heycam> hsivonen, for the purposes of the html wg's svg-in-html proposal i suppose just font
  115. # [14:36] <heycam> but i'm just personally interested in whether people use <defs> elements or not
  116. # [14:39] <hsivonen> heycam: ok
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  124. # [15:46] <hsivonen> preliminary results seem to show that the pretty much all fatal errors in wikimedia commons SVG files are due to unbound namespace prefixes
  125. # [15:47] <hsivonen> presumably, XML 1.0 layer errors are obvious when uploading to wikimedia commons but namespace errors aren't
  126. # [15:47] <hsivonen> (Xerces treats namespace errors as fatal)
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  130. # [16:03] <Philip> Does Wikimedia use something like Batik for rendering SVG?
  131. # [16:04] <Philip> and does that ignore the namespace problems by default?
  132. # [16:08] <Julian> hsivonen: I would expect that depends on how the XML parser is configured
  133. # [16:26] <hsivonen> Julian: if it's configured in another way, the app may receive something that isn't an infoset
  134. # [16:26] <hsivonen> and usually only browsers deal with that kind of thing
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  136. # [16:31] <Julian> hsivonen: yup; I just wanted to clarify that with Java parsers the caller usually specifies whether it wants ns awareness
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  139. # [16:36] <hsivonen> Julian: yeah, I'm aware of that. :-)
  140. # [17:03] <hsivonen> OK. that stats confirmed my hypothesis: it's more common for SVG content in Wikimedia commons to lack a namespace declaration (a problem that browsers knowingly refuse to address) than to have prefixed element in the SVG namespace
  141. # [17:03] <hsivonen> I'll post full findings to the list
  142. # [17:08] <Philip> Does the SVG renderer used on Wikimedia commons support prefixed elements in the SVG namespace?
  143. # [17:10] <Philip> I'd guess the results show that when authors are given immediate feedback about their errors (as they are when uploading to Wikipedia and having their image draconically not render) they fix the errors, and it's only a problem when their errors are silently accepted
  144. # [17:10] <Lachy_> I suppose that's not a major problem, since for articles and image description pages, the wikimedia system renders them as PNGs, so browsers usually don't see the missing namespace
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  161. # [17:34] <Philip> hsivonen: "I got a list of 76812 SVG files out of the system, but I was only able to download 160218 of them successfully." - how does that work, since 160218 > 76812?
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  173. # [18:06] <hsivonen> Philip: replied.
  174. # [18:09] <Philip> I think that's the first time I've ever seen someone use ‰
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  184. # [18:27] <Lachy_> ‰ looks too much like % in 13pt Monaco
  185. # [18:27] <Lachy_> I kept reading it wrongly
  186. # [18:29] <Lachy_> hsivonen, thanks for the dupe http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0096 and.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0097.html
  187. # [18:30] <hsivonen> Lachy_: bad connection and mailer retrying. :-(
  188. # [18:30] <Philip> It's worth reading twice :-)
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  191. # [18:35] <gDashiva> Agreed on promille confusion
  192. # [18:37] <Lachy> gDashiva, s/promille/permille/
  193. # [18:37] <Lachy> (unless you're speaking dutch)
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  196. # [18:45] <Lachy> I wonder what the reason is for so many SVG files containing editor specific markup? Don't SVG editors provide some sort of Export for Web feature, that strips the unnecessary proprietary stuff, keeping that in the source file only?
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  198. # [18:46] <Lachy> or do authors just publish the source file anyway, instead of exporting first, which is normal for other image formats
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  200. # [18:46] <Lachy> (I mean, exporting is normal for other formats, cause it gives better compression than publishing the source file)
  201. # [18:47] <gDashiva> Lachy: Norwegian, actually :)
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  204. # [18:48] <Lachy> gDashiva, ok, it must be both then
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  206. # [18:51] <Philip> Lachy: Particularly on Wikipedia, a file might be uploaded by one person and then edited and re-uploaded by someone else
  207. # [18:51] <Philip> and if those people use the same editors (which is likely, if it's Inkscape) then it's helpful to keep the editor-specific markup in the file
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  209. # [19:17] <hsivonen> looks like I've made an embarrassing number of text input errors on the mailing list today :-(
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  241. # [23:10] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, yt?
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  250. # [23:16] * Quits: scotfl (scotfl@70.64.14.62) (Quit: scotfl)
  251. # [23:17] * Joins: mjs (mjs@24.5.43.151)
  252. # [23:17] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, ping me when you get this. I have a question about an IE8 and/or Windows XP SP3 bug
  253. # [23:20] * Quits: MikeSmith^ (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  254. # [23:22] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@24.5.43.151)
  255. # [23:22] * Quits: mjs (mjs@24.5.43.151) (Connection reset by peer)
  256. # [23:39] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@24.5.43.151) (Quit: mjs_)
  257. # [23:51] * Quits: heycam (cam@124.168.12.194) (Quit: bye)
  258. # [23:56] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@78.51.106.244) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.1a2pre/2008073103])
  259. # Session Close: Tue Aug 05 00:00:00 2008

The end :)