/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-08-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 06 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  31. # [07:40] <marcos> Hi, does anyone mind if I ask a widget spec related question here?
  32. # [07:41] <marcos> hearing no objections :) I've trying to find a word to replace the word "compatible" in the following sentence: "A conforming specification MAY also allow authors to declaratively bootstrap proprietary resources within the widget resource, so long as they are compatible with the widget user agent."
  33. # [07:42] <marcos> Does this still make sense: "A conforming specification MAY also allow authors to declaratively bootstrap proprietary resources within the widget resource, so long as they are able to be processed or instantiated by the widget user agent."
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  41. # [09:31] <timeless> neither of those make much sense
  42. # [09:31] <timeless> the first arguably makes slightly less sense
  43. # [09:31] <timeless> why would a wua bootstrap something it can't support, and who would complain if it did that? :)
  44. # [09:32] <timeless> i'd start by saying "so long as" should be avoided :)
  45. # [09:43] <timeless> A conforming specification is not forbidden from enabling authors to declaratively bootstrap proprietary resources within the widget resource.
  46. # [09:43] <timeless> i don't think you need to dictate how a proprietary hook works
  47. # [09:43] <timeless> and i think it's reasonable to assume that a private hook will work, or it won't be used
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  57. # [11:22] <hsivonen> Did I understand right is that all GRDDL uses profile for is authorizing a GRDDL client to recognize rel=transformation?
  58. # [11:23] <hsivonen> so HTML5 could authorize the use of rel=transformation on the wiki and there wouldn't be a need for profile?
  59. # [11:23] <Hixie> that appears to be the case, at least according to what julian says. My reading of the spec suggests it also uses them to decide what microformats to look for, but that's less clear (julian said that's not true)
  60. # [11:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: in that case, this profile debacle with GRDDL and HTML5 seems increasingly silly
  61. # [11:25] <Hixie> that's what i concluded too
  62. # [11:35] <Lachy_> apparently one reason we may not be getting much feedback about the new alt spec is that northern-hemisphere people are on vacation at this time of year. So maybe we should expect more complaints in a couple of weeks.
  63. # [11:36] <Lachy_> that still seems strange to me though, vacations for me are usually in January.
  64. # [11:37] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
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  66. # [11:38] <timeless> january?
  67. # [11:38] <timeless> vacations in the us are typically August
  68. # [11:38] <timeless> in finland July
  69. # [11:40] <Lachy> timeless, yes. Usually, immediately following the xmas break
  70. # [11:41] <timeless> /ctcp lachy WHERE
  71. # [11:44] <Lachy> timeless, I'm from Australia. Just living in Norway this year
  72. # [11:44] <timeless> ah
  73. # [11:44] <Lachy> where everything is backwards, and these kind of things continually surprise me
  74. # [11:46] <zcorpan> Lachy: no, everything is backwards in australia
  75. # [11:46] <zcorpan> Lachy: the rest of the world is right
  76. # [11:46] <timeless> isn't that what lachy said?
  77. # [11:47] <zcorpan> timeless: Lachy said everything is backwards in Norway
  78. # [11:48] <Lachy> no, Australia is the only sensible country that does everything the right way, such as driving on the left, taking vacations as xmas time, putting english subtitles on foreign language shows, instead of foreign subtitles on english shows, etc.
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  80. # [11:48] * timeless chuckles
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  84. # [12:18] <gDashiva> Lachy: humbug
  85. # [12:18] <gDashiva> Norway drives on the right side, takes vacations at xmas time AND summer time, and puts subtitles on almost everything
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  88. # [12:40] <Lachy> gDashiva, they don't put subtitles on the norwegian programs, so I've got no chance of understanding them
  89. # [12:42] <gDashiva> Lachy: Why would you want to understand them? It's not like we produce anything worth watching
  90. # [12:43] <Lachy> it'd be nice to be able to watch a bit of the news sometimes, other than CNN
  91. # [12:43] <Lachy> whenever I turn on CNN, it seems like they're always just reporting on the war in iraq, which is kind of boring
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  93. # [12:54] <zcorpan> Lachy: just learn norwegian
  94. # [12:55] <zcorpan> det er ikke så veldig vanskelig
  95. # [12:56] <Lachy> Nei. Jeg prøvde, men å lære norsk er vanskelig
  96. # [12:59] <Lachy> LOL. Google translate incorrectly translates "norsk" in my sentence to "English"
  97. # [13:00] <zcorpan> det var morsomt
  98. # [13:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: don't they have local news in English for immigrants? In Finland, the morning news have a segment in en-GB for those who can't listen to Finnish or Swedish news
  99. # [13:02] <Philip> You could get news over internet radio from sensible countries
  100. # [13:02] <Lachy> hsivonen, I don't watch that much TV here, so maybe. But all I have seen in English on the channels I get is CNN, Travel channel, National Geographic, Discovery channel, and any imported tv series/movies
  101. # [13:03] <Lachy> Philip, I do get most news from the internet. Though most of it is tech related, rather than general news
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  104. # [14:23] <tobyink> @ hsivonen - saw your question on the IRC log.
  105. # [14:23] <hsivonen> tobyink: which question?
  106. # [14:23] <tobyink> Authorising rel=transformation is not all GRDDL uses head@profile for.
  107. # [14:24] <hsivonen> tobyink: ah. what else is it used for?
  108. # [14:25] <tobyink> to link to a profile like http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard which in turn links to an XSLT transformation
  109. # [14:26] <hsivonen> tobyink: so you need to rewrite profile URLs if microformats.org refuses to play along?
  110. # [14:27] <tobyink> not sure what you mean. there's nothing special about the profile URI - you could equally link to http://example.com/profiles/hcard and it would work just as well
  111. # [14:28] <Lachy> tobyink, do profile URIs need to be dereferenced to obtain the profile?
  112. # [14:29] <Lachy> I thought they were more of an opaque identifer that UAs could theoretically recognise
  113. # [14:29] <Julian> Lachy: that is my understanding as well. Seems GRDDL *allows* resolving them to disocver more information
  114. # [14:29] <tobyink> they can be treated either way. if you recognise it, perform your preprogrammed routines. otherwise, fetch the profile and use GRDDL.
  115. # [14:30] <hsivonen> tobyink: presumably if it were URI-based extensibility, microformats.org would be the one minting the microformat profile URIs
  116. # [14:30] <Julian> tobyink: of course that may disrupt cases where people relied on clients *not* automatically resolving profile URIs
  117. # [14:30] <tobyink> profile URIs for microformats are here <http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris>
  118. # [14:30] <Lachy> then how would changing the profile URL from microformats.org for hcard, to w3.org or even example.org, then the system would need to dereference the URL. But then, there's no unambiguous, machine processable way for the UA to determine the semantics
  119. # [14:31] <Julian> The profile story in the mf community sucks -- their test cases don't use them.
  120. # [14:32] <tobyink> @lachy - there is an unambiguous machine-processable way for the UA to determine the semantics - the machine retrieves the profile document and finds a link to an XSLT transformation. the XLST transofmration is applied to the original document and RDF triples result
  121. # [14:32] <hsivonen> tobyink: seems like dereferencing profile URIs is a sure way to break their use as mere globally unique an unambiguous identifiers
  122. # [14:32] <hsivonen> tobyink: and if the URI isn't dereferencable or doesn't point to XSLT? if it is a pure idenifier?
  123. # [14:33] <hsivonen> Julian: their story sucks, but if their test cases don't use them, the way they use profile, doesn't suck :-)
  124. # [14:34] <hsivonen> s/,//
  125. # [14:34] <Julian> hsivonen: at this point I'd be happy if they would be consistent in what they do.
  126. # [14:34] <Julian> ...or recommend.
  127. # [14:34] <tobyink> the HTML 4.01 definition of @profile : http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#profiles
  128. # [14:34] <Julian> Thr problem seems to be that profiles are part of their "we do the right thing" story; but in practice mf clients do not ise them.
  129. # [14:34] <tobyink> "User agents may dereference the URI and perform some activity based on the actual definitions within the profile"
  130. # [14:35] <tobyink> most uF test cases do not use them - microformats do predate GRDDL.
  131. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Julian: changing the story seems like the sensible way to go
  132. # [14:35] <tobyink> however, accepted best practice is for microformats to have profile URIs
  133. # [14:36] <Julian> tobyink: yes, they predate GRDDL, but not the profile story. why do the test cases fail to use a profile?
  134. # [14:36] <Julian> tobyink: when it is the accepted best practice, why don't their test cases use it?
  135. # [14:36] <tobyink> the test cases may well be sub-optimal.
  136. # [14:37] <Lachy> tobyink, so basically, using an XSLT transformation, I could use whatever class names and data I wanted in my document, as long as the thing output some RDF? That seems like a lot of unnecessary indirection.
  137. # [14:37] <Julian> tobyink: bad test cases can be worse than no test cases, because people steal code from them
  138. # [14:37] <hsivonen> if I had a system that accepted something RDF vCard and I was scraping the Web for hCards, I'd hardwire my scraper with an hCard to RDF vCard transformer no matter what profiles saidh
  139. # [14:37] <tobyink> and most test cases are document fragments (no <head>)
  140. # [14:37] <tobyink> @Lachy, yes
  141. # [14:38] <tobyink> @hsivonen, yes
  142. # [14:38] <Julian> it would be good if microformats.org had a validator service, that warns when profiles are missing.
  143. # [14:38] <tobyink> But it might be also useful to catch people who were using <span class="person"></span> say (i.e. not hCard)
  144. # [14:38] <Lachy> ok. IMHO, it's better to just have authors markup their data in a standardised way, and have consumers with built in knowledge of how to exract that data, than to have the author also provide the instructions for how to extract it
  145. # [14:39] <Julian> Lachy: yes, for well known and agreed upon formats.
  146. # [14:39] <tobyink> http://hcard.geekhood.net/ is a fairly good validator - only for hCard so far
  147. # [14:39] <Lachy> so that's why I think GRDDL is overengineered and poorly desinged
  148. # [14:39] <hsivonen> Julian: so why is it OK to send over an XSLT program, but sending over a JavaScript program is "bad"?
  149. # [14:40] <Lachy> Julian, then why is such a transformation needed for hcard, when it is a well known and agreed upon format?
  150. # [14:40] <Julian> tobyink: thanks for the pointer
  151. # [14:40] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbl
  152. # [14:41] <Julian> Lachy: did I say that that transformation is needed?
  153. # [14:41] <hsivonen> also, if I'm trying to fill a datastore with RDF vCard data, I wouldn't want random other triples in my triple store and probably couldn't do anything useful with them
  154. # [14:43] <Lachy> Julian, no, I'm just wondering why the GRDDL community created one for it
  155. # [14:43] <hsivonen> Lachy: seem like a good idea to share code for common stuff
  156. # [14:44] <Julian> hsivonen: I personally would prefer XSLT over JavaScript, but if both languages can do the same thing it shouldn't matter.
  157. # [14:44] <hsivonen> Lachy: but I think the client should have the code a priori
  158. # [14:44] <Julian> Lachy: for testing? proof of concept? And, btw, and as far as I can tell, it was provided by the microformats community (it predates GRDDL)
  159. # [14:45] <hsivonen> Julian: what if I create FooML and point by URI to a JAR file that contains a browser for FooML. Is that cool?
  160. # [14:45] <Lachy> Julian, but I thought the <link rel="transformation"> in the hcard profile was a GRDDL invention
  161. # [14:46] <hsivonen> Julian: or if I create a binary format and point by GUID to an ActiveX object implementing a viewer for it?
  162. # [14:47] <Julian> Lachy: I was referring to Brian Suda's XSLT, which i think appears in the GRDDL primer and has been around for eternity.
  163. # [14:47] <Julian> hsivonen: are we still in GRDDL land?
  164. # [14:47] <hsivonen> Julian: no, in the Least Power land
  165. # [14:48] <Julian> hsivonen: not sure what you're talking about
  166. # [14:48] <Julian> hsivonen: I'm not sure what languages other than XSLT GRDDL supports
  167. # [14:48] <hsivonen> Julian: I'm talking about sending dumb data vs. programs over the Web to clients
  168. # [14:49] <Lachy> Julian, I thought the hcard XSLT was created explicitly for GRDDL, but if it predated it, did it merely inspire the GRDDL approach?
  169. # [14:49] <tobyink> GRDDL only supports XSLT unfortunately
  170. # [14:49] <Julian> hsivonen: but when others are allowed, I would expect the transformations to return RDF, not to "browse"
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  172. # [14:49] <Julian> Lachy: potentially. DanC probably knows.
  173. # [14:50] <Julian> hsivonen: avoiding sending programs is good. is this what you want to hear?
  174. # [14:50] <Julian> hsivonen: so I prefer plain HTML over HTML + scripting
  175. # [14:51] <Julian> hsivonen: sometimes sending code can not be avoided
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  184. # [16:20] <gsnedders> When is our next draft meant to be?
  185. # [16:20] <gsnedders> early/mid August?
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  187. # [16:31] <anne> I believe so, yes
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  193. # [17:47] <anne> hmm, painful long email threads
  194. # [17:47] <gsnedders> anne: Esp. when you're on holiday :(
  195. # [17:48] <anne> I read some e-mail I've to admit, but I still have to figure out what I read and what I missed, though I might just delete the bunch...
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  197. # [18:22] <hsivonen> doh. I thought I had CCed www-archive instead
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  219. # [22:00] <DanC> hmm... trying to install a copy of validator.nu ... IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: './onvdl/saxon/dist/saxon-whattf.jar'
  220. # [22:01] <DanC> oh... silly me... cascaded error... sh: javac: not found
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  225. # [22:21] <DanC> ok, now it's working
  226. # [22:22] <hsivonen> nice. what went wrong? just JDK not installed?
  227. # [22:24] <DanC> yes
  228. # [22:24] <DanC> this is somewhat prompted by http://hsivonen.iki.fi/out-of-java-trap/
  229. # [22:26] <DanC> I used to play the "install jdk from sun/ibm/blackdown; upgrade debian; watch jdk fall over" game years ago, but I've been pretty comfortable sticking to python for several years now
  230. # [22:27] <DanC> hmm... I didn't know relax's include took params...
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  235. # [23:02] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  236. # [23:09] * tlr-later is now known as tlr
  237. # [23:38] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.203.15.230) (Quit: mjs)
  238. # [23:41] * Joins: rubys (rubys@75.182.87.110)
  239. # [23:48] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.203.15.230)
  240. # [23:51] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@212.181.225.173)
  241. # Session Close: Thu Aug 07 00:00:00 2008

The end :)