/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-08-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 14 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  56. # [16:56] * DanC tries to get his head around http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2008/test-harness/ (and http://www.w3.org/2008/07/test-harness-css/ )
  57. # [17:01] <smedero> Oh cool, I was wondering where the source for that was.
  58. # [17:02] <DanC> hmm... a little overboard on the comments.
  59. # [17:03] <DanC> I could do without a 5-line ascii art block for "Instance variables"
  60. # [17:05] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  61. # [17:05] <DanC> and screenfuls of echo/print statements... this is how php folks do it?
  62. # [17:06] <smedero> sadly.
  63. # [17:06] <DanC> there's no analog of perl HERE documents nor python triplequoted strings?
  64. # [17:07] <smedero> there is
  65. # [17:07] <smedero> it is not widely used...
  66. # [17:07] <DanC> ah
  67. # [17:07] <smedero> http://us3.php.net/manual/en/language.types.string.php#language.types.string.syntax.heredoc
  68. # [17:07] <smedero> and in PHP 5.3+: http://us3.php.net/manual/en/language.types.string.php#language.types.string.syntax.nowdoc
  69. # [17:08] <smedero> that's a recurring theme in PHP... lots of bits, not widely used.
  70. # [17:09] <smedero> If you worked with strings in Python, you aren't going to be wowed by PHP.
  71. # [17:09] <DanC> ok... blinders... never mind php style...
  72. # [17:10] <smedero> regardless, I still have a soft spot for PHP because it is so stupidly easy to get something working in a very short time with almost no investment in the server-side deployment issues.
  73. # [17:10] <smedero> something I can't say with Python... even though mod_wsgi has drastically improved matters.
  74. # [17:12] <DanC> has it really? for quite a while I heard fastCGI stuff falls over randomly, and WSGI seems pretty similar to fastcgi
  75. # [17:13] <DanC> last I looked at nearlyfreespeech.net , mod_wsgi was in demand but not yet deployed... and not looking very likely. supporting long-running processes is not something they do lightly
  76. # [17:14] <DanC> gotta go to something like http://www.webfaction.com/ to use it
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  79. # [17:42] <DanC> hmm... I haven't seen a telcon agenda, but just in case, I updated my overdue actions to get them off http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  80. # [17:42] <smedero> Julian pinged the chairs for an update yesterday but I haven't seen anything in response...
  81. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> smedero, DanC - we will have a telcon, I guess
  82. # [17:45] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.191.196)
  83. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> I have not update to offer because I'm not caught up from being away from vacation
  84. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> ...plus I'm actually supposed to be officially off this week as well (Keio is off this whole week for Japanese o-bon summer holiday)
  85. # [17:48] <smedero> I can appreciate not being caught up... it is taken me longer than I thought to get through the week+ I missed of public-html, whatwg, public-webapps, etc...
  86. # [17:48] <smedero> Thankfully Mark Pilgrim is doing these: http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html5-episode-2
  87. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> smedero: well, he's done one so far
  88. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> oh, 2
  89. # [17:52] <smedero> two! :-D
  90. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> we'll see how long he manages to keep it up
  91. # [17:52] <smedero> yeah, it is a time investment... I've slacked on those bugzilla summaries. :-(
  92. # [17:53] <smedero> work life is sucking up way more time than it was supposed to.
  93. # [17:53] <smedero> (my own faulty time management...)
  94. # [17:54] <takkaria> MikeSmith: mark has a pretty good track record for not losing interest in things
  95. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> great. let's hope he manages to find time to do this, then
  96. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> it would be very nice
  97. # [18:00] <DanC> GWT still amazes me. (e.g. http://blog.whatwg.org/html5-live-dom-in-javascript )
  98. # [18:00] <DanC> hmm... episode 2 isn't on http://www.w3.org/html/planet/ yet.
  99. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> planet updates only once an hour
  100. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  101. # [18:04] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  102. # [18:04] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  103. # [18:04] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-html-wg-irc
  104. # [18:04] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  105. # [18:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  106. # [18:04] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  107. # [18:04] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  108. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
  109. # [18:04] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  110. # [18:04] <trackbot> Date: 14 August 2008
  111. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  112. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  113. # [18:04] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  114. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Mike
  115. # [18:05] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  116. # [18:05] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  117. # [18:05] <Zakim> +DanC
  118. # [18:05] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  119. # [18:06] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
  120. # [18:06] * Zakim sees on the phone: Mike, DanC
  121. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Regrets: Joshue
  122. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.218.349.aaaa
  123. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> oedipus: you calling in today?
  124. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  125. # [18:06] <oedipus> yes right now
  126. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  127. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aabb
  128. # [18:07] <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
  129. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, DanC, +1.218.349.aaaa, Cynthia_Shelly, Gregory_Rosmaita, +49.251.280.aabb
  130. # [18:07] <Julian> Zakin, +49.251.280is me
  131. # [18:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see Laura, Zakim, RRSAgent, oedipus, Lachy, smedero, billmason, xover, tlr, MikeSmith, shepazu, Julian, ROBOd, Shunsuke, tH, sryo, Thezilch, timelyx, scotfl, DanC,
  132. # [18:07] <Zakim> ... beowulf, heycam, matt, Dashiva, Philip, jgraham_, jmb, gavin, gavin_, hober, ed_work, krijnh, gDashiva, timeless, inimino, deltab, jgraham, takkaria, Hixie, hsivonen, drry,
  133. # [18:07] <Zakim> ... Yudai, trackbot, t
  134. # [18:07] <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280 is me
  135. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  136. # [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, aabb is Julian
  137. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
  138. # [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  139. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, DanC, +1.218.349.aaaa, Cynthia_Shelly, Gregory_Rosmaita, Julian
  140. # [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is Laura
  141. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Laura; got it
  142. # [18:08] <oedipus> zakim, who is here
  143. # [18:08] <Zakim> oedipus, you need to end that query with '?'
  144. # [18:08] <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
  145. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, DanC, Laura, Cynthia_Shelly, Gregory_Rosmaita, Julian
  146. # [18:08] <Zakim> On IRC I see Laura, Zakim, RRSAgent, oedipus, Lachy, smedero, billmason, xover, tlr, MikeSmith, shepazu, Julian, ROBOd, Shunsuke, tH, sryo, Thezilch, timelyx, scotfl, DanC,
  147. # [18:08] <Zakim> ... beowulf, heycam, matt, Dashiva, Philip, jgraham_, jmb, gavin, gavin_, hober, ed_work, krijnh, gDashiva, timeless, inimino, deltab, jgraham, takkaria, Hixie, hsivonen, drry,
  148. # [18:08] <Zakim> ... Yudai, trackbot, t
  149. # [18:08] * oedipus all present and accounted for (phone numerically speaking that is)
  150. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  151. # [18:09] <DanC> hmm... profile doesn't show up in "Issues discussed over the last week" ... I guess we didn't give any tracker clues in the discussion. or was that last week?
  152. # [18:09] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  153. # [18:09] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  154. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  155. # [18:09] <shepazu> Zakim, mute shepazu
  156. # [18:09] <Zakim> Shepazu should now be muted
  157. # [18:10] <Julian> profile: I guess it was the week before
  158. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.425.646.aacc
  159. # [18:10] <smedero> Zakim, +1.425.646.aacc is me
  160. # [18:10] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  161. # [18:11] <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  162. # [18:11] <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
  163. # [18:11] <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Review
  164. # [18:11] <oedipus> MS: trackbot page - if something not yet entered into tracker but want addressed today, speak up now, please
  165. # [18:12] <oedipus> zakim, mute me
  166. # [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  167. # [18:12] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
  168. # [18:12] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
  169. # [18:12] <oedipus> MS: no agenda additions - preferences on where to start?
  170. # [18:12] <oedipus> DC: curious about the raised issues
  171. # [18:12] <oedipus> MS: start with raised issue
  172. # [18:12] <oedipus> s/issue/issues
  173. # [18:13] <oedipus> MS: go through in reverse chronological order?
  174. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> issue-58?
  175. # [18:13] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-58
  176. # [18:13] <trackbot> ISSUE-58 -- Use of "curly brackets" to identify a graphical image by its use or type by inserting a generic identifier / descriptor in curly braces as the @alt value for an IMG, -- RAISED
  177. # [18:13] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/58
  178. # [18:13] <oedipus> TOPIC: ISSUE 58
  179. # [18:13] <oedipus> DC: clearly a dupe of missing alt to me
  180. # [18:13] <oedipus> MS: agree, but a bit more precise
  181. # [18:13] <oedipus> q+
  182. # [18:13] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  183. # [18:14] <oedipus> MS: discussions gone on for months about alt -- after reviewing several proposals for handling disputed cases where author can't determine useful alternative text, what should the author do?
  184. # [18:14] <oedipus> MS: 1 solution offered was curly brace delimited generic type text placeholder to provide information for software to use in intelligent matter -- user choice of what to expose and not
  185. # [18:15] <Laura> Curly braces is but one of many potential solutions have been discussed and are listed at:
  186. # [18:15] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute#head-27468e7ee9afd1f9e07186c8d74f0b0168b3975a
  187. # [18:15] <DanC> yes, {photo} is the recent proposal for the missing-alt issue; making a new issue doesn't seem like a useful way to organize the discussion.
  188. # [18:15] <Laura> Advice has been sought, is needed, and is pending from PFWG regarding what an authoring or publishing tool should insert, in a case where no alt has been provided by the author, but the image is known to be "critical content".
  189. # [18:15] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0408.html
  190. # [18:15] <oedipus> MS: hixie sent message many months ago to PF, but no response
  191. # [18:15] <Laura> usurping the role of WAI. PF has previously pointed out, "WCAG WG is chartered to set Accessibility guidelines and HTML WG is not".
  192. # [18:15] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0082.html
  193. # [18:15] <Laura> The W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) is the accessibility authority.
  194. # [18:15] * DanC Zakim, mute me
  195. # [18:15] * Zakim DanC should now be muted
  196. # [18:15] <oedipus> MS: recently, hixie made change to spec, and that sparked response
  197. # [18:15] <Laura> Imposing a particular solution and adding it to the draft could be seen as usurping the role of WAI. PF has previously pointed out, "WCAG WG is chartered to set Accessibility guidelines and HTML WG is not".
  198. # [18:15] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0082.html
  199. # [18:15] <Laura> The W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) is the accessibility authority.
  200. # [18:15] <oedipus> zakim, unmute me
  201. # [18:15] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  202. # [18:15] <Laura> The curly braces proposal in the editor's draft doesn't appear to be a text equivalent per WCAG. The HTML WG needs to be sure deliverables satisfy accessibility requirements. PF are the go-to-guys for guidance in accessibility matters. PF's counsel is needed BEFORE any particular solution is chosen to be added to the next published draft. The curly braces proposal should not be published outside of an editor's draft without consultation and collaboration
  203. # [18:15] <oedipus> zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
  204. # [18:15] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
  205. # [18:15] <oedipus> MS: change in discussion since added to spec
  206. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> q?
  207. # [18:16] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  208. # [18:16] <shepazu> q+
  209. # [18:16] * Zakim sees oedipus, shepazu on the speaker queue
  210. # [18:16] <shepazu> q-
  211. # [18:16] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  212. # [18:16] <oedipus> GJR: alt for human parseable info, need @role for machine parseable info/hooks
  213. # [18:16] * Zakim hears Cynthia_Shelly's hand up
  214. # [18:16] * Zakim sees oedipus, Cynthia_Shelly on the speaker queue
  215. # [18:17] <oedipus> ack me
  216. # [18:17] * Zakim sees Cynthia_Shelly on the speaker queue
  217. # [18:17] <oedipus> CS: PF talked about this on call yesterday, working on proposal/response
  218. # [18:18] <oedipus> MS: commenting on GJR's comments - HTML WG has as its mandate what @alt is - can change purpose of alt attribute to make provisions to bring up to date with use cases and reqs that are out there; def of @alt is not static and locked-down for ever; not categorically an abuse if redefine @alt to accept something other than textual equivalent
  219. # [18:19] <oedipus> GJR: if @alt is to be used as machine parseable, info - how is @alt equivalent to be expressed?
  220. # [18:19] <oedipus> MS: yet to be determined
  221. # [18:19] <Laura> The Protocols and Formats Working Group (PFWG) has not yet provided guidance with regarding curly braces proposal in the the img section of the editor's draft with respect to conformance with:
  222. # [18:19] <Laura> - Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG)
  223. # [18:19] <Laura> - Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines (ATAG)
  224. # [18:19] <Laura> - User Agent Accessibility Guidelines (UAAG)
  225. # [18:19] <oedipus> MS: can't cut conversation short by citing older recs
  226. # [18:19] <oedipus> GJR: that's the proposal @role that would fulfil this use case without compromising alt for those who care of can add it
  227. # [18:20] <Laura> The curly braces proposal should not be published outside of an editor's draft without consultation and collaboration with PF.
  228. # [18:20] <Laura> It seems as if the curly braces proposal is meant for meta data and would fit better in a separate img attribute. In any event it isn't a text equivalent per WCAG. Not only do reserved characters pollute the possible values available for an attribute whose data type is string, but also it is meta data about the image - not an equivalent. They are two different things.
  229. # [18:21] <oedipus> GJR: what will happen when author wants to add alt text as equiv and machine parseable info for app processing?
  230. # [18:21] <Laura> What if someone actually has an image of {} or {captcha} etc - text shouldn't be in graphics, but what if this is needed where say someone is showing how text appears in a new font they are designing?
  231. # [18:21] <DanC> (this discussion is hard to follow; some are arguing positions in the design space, some are pointing out the scope of the HTML WG, and some are arguing that one issue is a dup of another.)
  232. # [18:21] <oedipus> MS: case where author not able to put useable text equiv into value of @alt
  233. # [18:21] <oedipus> MS: no agreement on @alt - even disagreement over use cases
  234. # [18:22] <oedipus> MS: if don't address requirement, then result is that authors just going to dump use of content into @alt - spirit of change was to address use case/req for those who cannot add @alt
  235. # [18:22] <oedipus> GJR: ability to auto-add machine-parseable info should NOT compromise the author's ability to provide a textual equivalent
  236. # [18:23] <oedipus> GJR: reason @role was suggested was to satisfy the original use case that led to the curly braces verbiage
  237. # [18:23] * Joins: robburns (robburns@79.183.242.101)
  238. # [18:23] <DanC> q+ to get back to the raised issue and suggest again that ISSUE-58 curly alt be closed as a dup of ISSUE-31 missing-alt
  239. # [18:23] * Zakim sees Cynthia_Shelly, DanC on the speaker queue
  240. # [18:24] <DanC> ack Cyn
  241. # [18:24] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  242. # [18:24] <oedipus> CS: agree that use case exists, but don't think curly braces best -- like GJR's solution, but some reservations, need to think through; would be useful to have both categorization and equivalent info
  243. # [18:24] <DanC> ack danc
  244. # [18:24] * Zakim unmutes DanC
  245. # [18:24] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to get back to the raised issue and suggest again that ISSUE-58 curly alt be closed as a dup of ISSUE-31 missing-alt
  246. # [18:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  247. # [18:24] <oedipus> DanC: curly alt discussion is same as missing alt - wouldn't make seperate decisions
  248. # [18:25] <Julian> q+
  249. # [18:25] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  250. # [18:25] <oedipus> MS: DanC's wants to close new issue - same design space
  251. # [18:25] <oedipus> GJR: moves issue forward by proposing @role
  252. # [18:26] <DanC> (hmm... I didn't see anything about @role in the curly alt issue)
  253. # [18:26] <oedipus> MS: want to avoid proliferation of core issues - personally agree with dan, good to discuss on call, but not sure a seperate issue
  254. # [18:26] <Julian> q-
  255. # [18:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  256. # [18:26] <oedipus> MS: can append or change description but same issue
  257. # [18:26] <Julian> Either close 58 *and* update 31, or close 31 and update 58.
  258. # [18:27] <oedipus> GJR: ability to perceive visual image a use case that is not changed since web began - this is an attempt to rectify
  259. # [18:28] <oedipus> MS: not going to fall through cracks - bigger issue is sole place to track discussion about this part of the problem
  260. # [18:28] <DanC> what's a better title, indeed?
  261. # [18:28] <oedipus> CS: re-write title of other issue - categorization of objects and not just "missing alt"
  262. # [18:28] <DanC> "Should img without alt ever be conforming"
  263. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> issue-31?
  264. # [18:28] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
  265. # [18:28] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Should img without alt ever be conforming -- OPEN
  266. # [18:28] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
  267. # [18:29] <oedipus> CS: handling cases where alt is unknown?
  268. # [18:29] <DanC> "handling cases where alt is unknown" works for me
  269. # [18:29] <oedipus> GJR: machine-parseable versus human-parseable values for @alt
  270. # [18:29] <oedipus> MS: replacement?
  271. # [18:29] <oedipus> CS: yes, but first draft
  272. # [18:30] <smedero> I'd also suggest changing the short title from `missing-alt` to just `@alt` or something equally general...
  273. # [18:30] <DanC> I think that's too far, smedero
  274. # [18:30] <smedero> ahh, ok.
  275. # [18:30] <DanC> I can see "machine-parseable versus human-parseable values" as a separate issue. I didn't get it from the initial text of issue 58
  276. # [18:30] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.56.76)
  277. # [18:30] * Joins: aroben_ (aroben@71.58.56.76)
  278. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: issue 31 title: Should img without alt ever be conforming; machine-parseable versus human-parseable values for @alt
  279. # [18:31] <oedipus> GJR: thinks conflating issues
  280. # [18:31] <DanC> blech.
  281. # [18:31] <oedipus> GJR: minus 1
  282. # [18:31] <DanC> I like "handling cases where alt is unknown" much better.
  283. # [18:31] <oedipus> GJR: retract minus 1 to plus 1
  284. # [18:31] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.56.76) (Quit: Leaving)
  285. # [18:31] <oedipus> CS: current issue name is inflammatory
  286. # [18:32] <oedipus> CS: more about how to figure out what to do when good alt not available
  287. # [18:32] <oedipus> CS: one an implementation detail one a spec detail
  288. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: issue 31 title: Should img without alt ever be conforming; what to do when good alt not available
  289. # [18:32] <oedipus> DanC: handling cases where alt is unknown doesn't work for GJR?
  290. # [18:33] <Julian> I like the proposal
  291. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: issue 31 title: Should img without alt ever be conforming; what to do when a reasonable alt cannot be determined
  292. # [18:33] <oedipus> CS: handling cases where a useful or reasonable @alt is not available
  293. # [18:33] <oedipus> GJR: that to me is an authoring tool implementation problem, not a declarative language problem
  294. # [18:33] <DanC> (tweaking based on what I hear... "handling cases where reasonable alt is unknown/unavailable")
  295. # [18:34] <oedipus> CS: is and isn't - can be author tool issue - when doing mash-ups, can't know what object is - having way of saying what kind of image or where came from is needed - role might satisfy that
  296. # [18:34] <Laura> The original issue was Omitting alt Attribute for "Critical Content"
  297. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: issue 31 title: Should img without alt ever be conforming; what to do when a reasonable alt is unknown/unavailable
  298. # [18:34] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Oct/0044.html
  299. # [18:35] <DanC> "what to do when reasonable alt is unknown/unavailable" works for me
  300. # [18:35] <oedipus> GJR: decide first on @alt and @role - @role would be easily machine-extractable and insertable
  301. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: issue 31 title: What to do when a reasonable alt is unknown/unavailable?
  302. # [18:35] <oedipus> CS: what to do when a text a textual equivalent is not available
  303. # [18:35] <oedipus> MS: like term "text" better
  304. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: issue 31 title: What to do when a reasonable text equivalent is unknown/unavailable?
  305. # [18:36] <oedipus> GJR: can live with that
  306. # [18:36] <DanC> (this doesn't seem like a technical decision, so we can make this "decision" in a telcon)
  307. # [18:36] <smedero> I've got ISSUE-31 in front of me, so I can make that title change....
  308. # [18:36] <DanC> (i.e. this is just issue tracking admin)
  309. # [18:37] <DanC> I have ISSUE-31 open in edit mode too, fyi
  310. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> smedero: hang on just for a minute
  311. # [18:37] <smedero> ahh, nevermind
  312. # [18:37] <smedero> :)
  313. # [18:37] <oedipus> CS: spend time in PF looking at use case from author and user POV;
  314. # [18:37] <oedipus> MS: good idea
  315. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> RESOLUTION: change issue 31 title to: "What to do when a reasonable text equivalent is unknown/unavailable?"
  316. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> smedero, please change title and also add a note, specically about @role
  317. # [18:38] <oedipus> GJR: concerned about those who want to do the right thing and provide meaningful textual equiv through @alt and machine-parseable info through @role - valid use case - want to provide meaningful equivalent and a machine-parseable hook
  318. # [18:38] <oedipus> MS: can we expect to hear back from PF on use of @role?
  319. # [18:38] <oedipus> CS: soon is a relative term
  320. # [18:38] <oedipus> GJR: is on PF's radar and on PF's radar
  321. # [18:38] <smedero> DanC: did you have some changes to 31 that you wanted to make or were in the middle of?
  322. # [18:39] <DanC> no
  323. # [18:39] <oedipus> MS: good - laura's earlier point on PF's position - editor's draft is one thing, going past is another is well taken - not going to get to LC without agreement on this - try to do now or later, better to do now
  324. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  325. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> smedero, please also close out issue 58 with a note
  326. # [18:40] * DanC stands by for smedero 's edit to issue 31
  327. # [18:40] <oedipus> s/on PF's radar/on PF's agenda
  328. # [18:40] * DanC is ready to close 58 once 31 is updated
  329. # [18:40] <oedipus> GJR: trying to provide requirements and comprehensive use cases
  330. # [18:40] <oedipus> MS: coming to a mutual understanding of what reqs are
  331. # [18:40] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  332. # [18:41] <smedero> 31's title is updated, going back to add the bits about @rol
  333. # [18:41] <smedero> erm @role.
  334. # [18:41] <oedipus> MS: by charter, not chartered to make binding decisions in telecon time, but can make decisions about issue tracking; main topic covered in this call
  335. # [18:41] * oedipus thanks smedero
  336. # [18:41] <DanC> q+ to ask about a few more raised issues
  337. # [18:41] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  338. # [18:41] <oedipus> MS: those who call in to telecons, are more likely to shape issue tracking (nudge, nudge)
  339. # [18:42] <oedipus> TOPIC: Raised Issues of Recent Vintage
  340. # [18:42] <shepazu> Zakim, unmute me
  341. # [18:42] <Zakim> Shepazu should no longer be muted
  342. # [18:42] <oedipus> MS: last one quotation marks for Q element - not useful to discuss
  343. # [18:42] <shepazu> q+
  344. # [18:42] * Zakim sees DanC, shepazu on the speaker queue
  345. # [18:42] <oedipus> DanC: clarification from MS
  346. # [18:43] <oedipus> MS: problem - everytime close issue, there will be an objection; reluctant to close anything out because don't want to generate an email storm; should start closing issues out
  347. # [18:43] <oedipus> DanC: stright up close or keep
  348. # [18:43] <oedipus> MS: proposals for closure?
  349. # [18:43] <oedipus> MS: can go through 1 by 1 in 20 minutes left to decide to close
  350. # [18:43] <oedipus> MS: not good to keep too much open at one time
  351. # [18:44] <oedipus> MS: walk through rest of issues?
  352. # [18:44] <oedipus> MS: based on past experience, closing issues, raises an email firestorm, but that should affect efficiency of tracker
  353. # [18:44] <robburns> the issue on curie's could be closed since it was added only for one person and completely misunderstands curie's HTML5 or both
  354. # [18:44] <oedipus> DanC: raised until someone takes an action item to do something
  355. # [18:45] <oedipus> MS: 20-odd issues we haven't touched
  356. # [18:45] <oedipus> MS: try to pick the low-hanging fruit today's discussion
  357. # [18:45] <oedipus> robburns, what is issue number?
  358. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> q?
  359. # [18:45] * Zakim sees DanC, shepazu on the speaker queue
  360. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> ack DanC
  361. # [18:45] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask about a few more raised issues
  362. # [18:45] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  363. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> ack shepazu
  364. # [18:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  365. # [18:46] <oedipus> DS: quick question: with PF one needs to have them come to HTML WG with use cases and reqs, is it also useful if come with proposed wording?
  366. # [18:46] <oedipus> DanC: hixie doesn't welcome suggested text, but helps me
  367. # [18:46] <robburns> aria-curie is issue 51
  368. # [18:46] <robburns> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/51
  369. # [18:47] <oedipus> GJR: PF is working on specific verbiage and requirements
  370. # [18:47] <oedipus> DS: is it reasonable to put forth proposed wording or not?
  371. # [18:47] <oedipus> MS: yes, don't listen to what hixie says -- proposed text CAN state req more clearly than stating req in abstract terms
  372. # [18:47] <oedipus> MS: more helpful to propose text - no harm
  373. # [18:48] <oedipus> DS: good tactic to state reqs, use cases, take proposed text and correlate which part of text goes with which req
  374. # [18:48] <oedipus> DS: how HTML WG accepts input is my query
  375. # [18:49] <oedipus> MS: for group as whole -- editor does have control over final wording - to propose to working group as a whole as discussion, is in my opinion FAR more helpful than dealing with abstracts
  376. # [18:50] <Laura> Tracker definitions seem to have been followed for the curly brace issue. "RAISED = Issue tracker staff suggests this is worth a WG discussion and potentially a decision."
  377. # [18:50] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/
  378. # [18:50] <oedipus> MS: when new info available, should be brought to group
  379. # [18:50] <robburns> present+ robburns
  380. # [18:50] <oedipus> TOPIC: Tracker Agenda Review, continued
  381. # [18:50] <oedipus> MS: raised issues - lot are stale
  382. # [18:50] <oedipus> MS: can continue to review issues - nothing super-recent (end-of july or pending review for end-of july august)
  383. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> action-73?
  384. # [18:50] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-73
  385. # [18:50] <trackbot> ACTION-73 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on WAI-ARIA markup thread, emphasizing the conformance point -- due 2008-07-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  386. # [18:50] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/73
  387. # [18:50] <oedipus> MS: top of agenda, action 73
  388. # [18:51] <oedipus> TOPIC: Action 73
  389. # [18:51] <oedipus> DanC: think is done
  390. # [18:51] <oedipus> MS: objections, otherwise close out
  391. # [18:51] <oedipus> MS: hearing no objections, will close - action, not issue
  392. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> close action-73
  393. # [18:51] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-73.
  394. # [18:51] <trackbot> ACTION-73 Follow up on WAI-ARIA markup thread, emphasizing the conformance point closed
  395. # [18:51] <oedipus> TOPIC: Issues In Red
  396. # [18:52] <oedipus> MS: Lachy and authoring guide - past due, but not on call - know working on it
  397. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> action-72?
  398. # [18:52] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-72
  399. # [18:52] <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-14 -- OPEN
  400. # [18:52] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  401. # [18:52] <oedipus> MS: action 72 - on Josh;
  402. # [18:52] <Laura> Deliverable for Action 72:
  403. # [18:52] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  404. # [18:52] <oedipus> Luara: working on it - please consult the above URI
  405. # [18:52] <oedipus> MS: not finished yet, so reset due date until next week
  406. # [18:52] <Laura> Request that the definition of the headers attribute in the spec be extended to allow it to reference a td. This would make it possible for complex data tables to be marked up accessibly.
  407. # [18:53] <oedipus> MS: changed date to 2008-08-20
  408. # [18:53] <Laura> The headers/id markup is functional and works today. Results of some recent testing:
  409. # [18:53] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
  410. # [18:53] <Laura> It needs to be grandfathered into the spec.
  411. # [18:53] <Laura> This issue's history from May 2007 to present:
  412. # [18:53] <DanC> (trackbot wish: "continue action-72" would push the date to 1 week from now)
  413. # [18:53] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
  414. # [18:53] <oedipus> MS: anything else on tracker anyone burning to discuss?
  415. # [18:53] <Laura> This is currently implemented in such a way that complex tables cannot be created using the headers attribute. It essentially makes the headers attribute that has been included on tds pointless. The headers attribute needs to be able to reference the id of a td.
  416. # [18:53] <oedipus> MS: if not, can end early
  417. # [18:54] <oedipus> MS: clear we do need to do something about headers if going to keep in spec; isn't well specified in HTML4.01 - not fixing problem intended to solve
  418. # [18:54] <oedipus> MS: anything else anyone wants to talk about or adjourn early?
  419. # [18:54] <oedipus> move to adjourn
  420. # [18:55] <Julian> q+
  421. # [18:55] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  422. # [18:55] <Laura> In June 2007 in response to my inquiry, PF said, "There is a disability constituency that currently uses and depends on this feature: anyone offering to remove it should be expected to demonstrate that the replacement works better and is in service..."
  423. # [18:55] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0145.html
  424. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> q?
  425. # [18:55] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  426. # [18:55] <oedipus> MS: surprised - lot of discussion on list -- thought there would be more to discuss; huge threads developing
  427. # [18:55] <DanC> (the discussion of distributed extensibility and GRDDL was kinda interesting, but I'm not sure what to talk about)
  428. # [18:56] <oedipus> JR: set of issues that have been open for a long time, seems that all arguments about issues have been exchanged on mailing list - what to do with them? suggest pick very simple one, and test process - put to vote if can't achieve consensus
  429. # [18:56] <oedipus> MS: simple issue - current XSLT engines not being able to produce conformant HTML5 output a candidate
  430. # [18:56] <oedipus> JR: yes
  431. # [18:56] <oedipus> MS: agree should close out
  432. # [18:57] <oedipus> DanC: thought were going to close discussion
  433. # [18:58] <oedipus> MS: on XSLT, pick issues that are hanging where hixie has explicitly said won't make further changes to text but still bone of contention -- how to dispose of them? perhaps contacting the person who raised the issue to explain
  434. # [18:58] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
  435. # [18:58] <oedipus> DanC: issues where discussion done, or ...
  436. # [18:58] <oedipus> MS: not an issue with decision - cannot currently use XSLT engines to produce HTML5
  437. # [18:58] <oedipus> q+
  438. # [18:58] * Zakim sees Julian, oedipus on the speaker queue
  439. # [18:59] <oedipus> GJR: what does it mean to produce valid HTML5?
  440. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> q?
  441. # [19:00] * Zakim sees Julian, oedipus on the speaker queue
  442. # [19:00] <oedipus> MS: conformant with current state of spec - specifically in regards XSLT the issue is the fact that HTML5 says should have a doctype html without system or public identifier, so have to use ugly hack to get an XSLT to generate that; HenriS has pointed out that is least amongst issues with HTML5 and XSLT, for HTML intended to be used by authors and valid
  443. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  444. # [19:00] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  445. # [19:00] <oedipus> GJR: public working draft or current editors' draft in terms of conformance
  446. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> ack oedipus
  447. # [19:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  448. # [19:01] <oedipus> JR: public one
  449. # [19:01] <oedipus> GJR: wanted to ensure is PWD not editor's draft that is being "conformed-to"
  450. # [19:01] <Julian> q+
  451. # [19:01] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  452. # [19:02] <DanC> (w.r.t. ISSUE-54 html5-from-xslt , I'm content with XSLT engines adding a new output mode)
  453. # [19:02] <oedipus> MS: will raise this as issue on list - have a disagreement about resolution - editor decided not to make change in spec, but still have problem; agree with hixie in regards this isn't an HTML5 spec problem but limitations of XSLT - cannot limit to legacy output of XSLT - trying to move lang forward; either constrain language to conform to XSLT HTML output, or expect that XSLT will be updated to something that is conformant with current HTML5 spec
  454. # [19:03] <oedipus> MS: DougS referred to discussions on list -- anything actionable on those?
  455. # [19:03] <oedipus> MS: could take up a lot of time (and already has)
  456. # [19:03] <Julian> wrt xslt: the underlying question is: should HTML 5 stay compatible with existing HTML generators *if* it's easy to achieve?
  457. # [19:03] <oedipus> DanC: suggest not a critical mass in favor - like to know mozilla's position on some of these issues - what are their positions, what are their reqs?
  458. # [19:03] <Julian> what's the alternative? Re-open XSLT 1.0?
  459. # [19:04] <oedipus> MS: decentralized extensibility - browser vendors shown little interest in that -- oversimplified in discussion, but not a critical mass for us to address this, especially since have a long schedule of meeting implementation reqs and testing
  460. # [19:04] <robburns> Julian: could you point to a specific place in the XSLT rec that prohibits a doctype with no system and public identifiers? I'm having trouble finding it.
  461. # [19:04] <Julian> q+
  462. # [19:04] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  463. # [19:05] <oedipus> MS: don't want to prematurely end decentralized extensibility issue, but don't want it constantly hanging over our heads
  464. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  465. # [19:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  466. # [19:06] <oedipus> JR: decentralized extensibility crossed by thread on profile attribute - would be ok with statement that "we are not chartered to enhance abilities of HTML with regards to decentralized extensibility" -- concern about hixie removing what he doesn't like -- precludes any existing method of using extensibility, and if that is the case,then i'm not comfortable with that -- should keep existing hooks, rather than remove and drop discussion
  467. # [19:06] <oedipus> DanC: expect anything of more discussion?
  468. # [19:06] <oedipus> JR: cannot hurt
  469. # [19:07] <oedipus> MS: everything been said; hixie been quite candid on his position that mechanism for adding arbitrary extensions to core vocab not a good thing
  470. # [19:07] <oedipus> MS: others think quite differently, and a lot in between
  471. # [19:07] <DanC> s/cannot hurt/sometimes new things come up, but no, I don't expect so in this case/
  472. # [19:07] <DanC> s/oversimplified in discussion/I'm oversimplifying the email thread quite a bit/
  473. # [19:08] <oedipus> MS: any individual who wants to write something as separate spec and take to group for decision and to rec; distributed extendibility mechanism is orthogonal to core description vocab; no reason technically why could not be produced as separate spec - affects handling of HTML4/legacy content in text/html
  474. # [19:08] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.125.179)
  475. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> q?
  476. # [19:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  477. # [19:09] <oedipus> MS: not exclusive to dealing with new HTML5 content; for a lot of reasons, probably should be developed as separate spec - could be created outside of HTML WG
  478. # [19:09] <Julian> q+
  479. # [19:09] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  480. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  481. # [19:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  482. # [19:10] <oedipus> DS: interesting proposal that it be separate spec; right that not a lot of new info, but not going to get that info if don't explain details of how to do it; since hixie said "not in my spec" is it feasible to expect another W3C WG to pick it up and develop?
  483. # [19:10] <oedipus> MS: pragmattically speaking has to be in separate spec - sam and david might develop spec on how to do and how to integrate into HTML5 and HTML4
  484. # [19:10] <oedipus> DS: hixie working at cross-purposes to that even if separate?
  485. # [19:10] <DanC> (things like profile don't require anything from browsers; authoring tools are perhaps the more relevant party; but I haven't heard from any authoring tool makers about profile either. sigh.)
  486. # [19:11] <robburns> just answering my own question on Issue-54, http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#section-HTML-Output-Method indicates that the word PUBLIC would be included in HTML output method even if the author indicated a null value for the public identifier.
  487. # [19:11] <oedipus> MS: hixie been very clear that don't want addition of arbitrary custom vocab into HTML5 and expecting UAs to do something with it
  488. # [19:11] <DanC> q+
  489. # [19:11] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  490. # [19:11] <oedipus> MS: without a clear undestanding of proposition and its value, won't be considered
  491. # [19:12] <oedipus> MS: use case for which there are not users -- hard thing to tell browser vendors: "add app to add any type of tag they want and expect UA to do somthing useful with arbitrary vocabs"
  492. # [19:12] <Julian> q+
  493. # [19:12] * Zakim sees DanC, Julian on the speaker queue
  494. # [19:12] <oedipus> DS: over-simplification
  495. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> q?
  496. # [19:12] * Zakim sees DanC, Julian on the speaker queue
  497. # [19:12] <DanC> q-
  498. # [19:12] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  499. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> ack DanC
  500. # [19:12] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  501. # [19:12] <oedipus> MS: stating most emphatic opposition
  502. # [19:12] <oedipus> DS: generic mechanism for known or formal vocabs
  503. # [19:13] <oedipus> MS: that is your perspective, but not sam's perspective; don't think that's what Dave Orchard wants either
  504. # [19:13] <oedipus> DS: for ANY language in the future - keep in mind if you want your language integrated into HTML you need to do x,y, and z
  505. # [19:13] <oedipus> MS: good point -- note to say "if you define custom vocab, here is what we strongly suggest you do"
  506. # [19:14] <oedipus> DS: agree generally, but personally don't think other ML has to be changed to use processing model of HTML5
  507. # [19:14] <oedipus> q?
  508. # [19:14] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  509. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  510. # [19:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  511. # [19:14] <oedipus> DanC: over-time by 10 minutes
  512. # [19:14] <oedipus> MS: hear from JR then close
  513. # [19:16] <oedipus> JR: 1) have some hooks for distributed extensibility in HTML4 that were removed from HTML5 (profile, scheme); 2) additional attributes, such as RDFa - introducing way to add new elements to language hard to do, but have other points of extensibility -- RDFa -- in charter to work on that - need to start discussion on how to achieve that goal - doesn't require new attributes, but restoring those that worked and are needed
  514. # [19:16] <oedipus> MS: good point, JR
  515. # [19:16] <oedipus> MS: very unclear if good reason to remove @profile -- mass of opinion against removal
  516. # [19:16] <oedipus> MS: move to adjourn
  517. # [19:16] <oedipus> ADJOURNED
  518. # [19:16] <Julian> cu
  519. # [19:16] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  520. # [19:16] <Zakim> -smedero
  521. # [19:16] <Zakim> -Julian
  522. # [19:16] <robburns> mass of opinion also for distributed extensibility
  523. # [19:17] <oedipus> MS: thanks to all for calling in -- talk to you all next week
  524. # [19:17] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  525. # [19:17] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  526. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  527. # [19:17] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  528. # [19:17] <Zakim> -Mike
  529. # [19:17] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  530. # [19:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  531. # [19:17] <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
  532. # [19:17] <Zakim> On the phone I see DanC, Laura
  533. # [19:17] <Zakim> On IRC I see adele, aroben_, robburns, Laura, Zakim, RRSAgent, oedipus, Lachy, smedero, billmason, xover, tlr, MikeSmith, shepazu, Julian, ROBOd, Shunsuke, tH, sryo, Thezilch,
  534. # [19:17] <Zakim> ... timelyx, scotfl, DanC, beowulf, heycam, matt, Dashiva, Philip, jgraham_, jmb, gavin, gavin_, hober, ed_work, krijnh, gDashiva, timeless, inimino, deltab, jgraham, takkaria,
  535. # [19:17] <Zakim> ... Hixie, hsivonen, drry, Yudai, trackbot, t
  536. # [19:17] <Zakim> -Laura
  537. # [19:17] <matt> Present- Matt
  538. # [19:17] <oedipus> zakim, please part
  539. # [19:17] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Mike, DanC, +1.218.349.aaaa, Cynthia_Shelly, Gregory_Rosmaita, +49.251.280.aabb, Julian, Laura, Shepazu, smedero, [Microsoft]
  540. # [19:17] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  541. # [19:17] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  542. # [19:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  543. # [19:18] <oedipus> present- +1.218.349.aaaa
  544. # [19:19] <oedipus> present- +49.251.280.aabb
  545. # [19:19] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  546. # [19:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  547. # [19:19] <oedipus> chair: Mike_Smith
  548. # [19:19] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  549. # [19:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  550. # [19:20] * oedipus anyone know if there was a second microsoft caller - or did cynthia call in twice?
  551. # [19:21] * oedipus MikeSmith, did you intend to log a resolution? it didn't log as one - should i re-enter is as a resolution as scribe?
  552. # [19:21] * oedipus <MikeSmith> RESOLUTION: change issue 31 title to: "What to do when a reasonable text equivalent is unknown/unavailable?"
  553. # [19:21] * oedipus anyone, did we reach consensus on a resolution or no?
  554. # [19:22] * Quits: robburns (robburns@79.183.242.101) (Quit: robburns)
  555. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> oedipus: we did reach resolution on that
  556. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> with no objections
  557. # [19:22] * oedipus ok, i'll re-enter as scribe
  558. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> thanks
  559. # [19:22] <oedipus> RESOLUTION: change issue 31 title to: "What to do when a reasonable text equivalent is unknown/unavailable?"
  560. # [19:22] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  561. # [19:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  562. # [19:23] * oedipus done, MikeSmith
  563. # [19:24] <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
  564. # [19:24] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
  565. # [19:24] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  566. # [19:25] <oedipus> MikeSmith or DanC - minutes announcement to the announce list only?
  567. # [19:26] <DanC> I think that's the norm, yes
  568. # [19:26] <oedipus> ok, just triple checking
  569. # [19:26] <oedipus> will be there shortly
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  599. # Session Close: Fri Aug 15 00:00:00 2008

The end :)