/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-08-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 18 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  34. # [15:46] <anne> wow, this flickr/alt thread is amazing
  35. # [15:55] <gDashiva> Amazing as in "How can people get so worked up" or?
  36. # [15:57] <anne> no, the arguments put forward
  37. # [15:57] <anne> but maybe it's just me
  38. # [16:03] <Lachy> anne, which arguments in particular?
  39. # [16:04] <Lachy> I didn't read most of the thread since the whole alt issue is rather boring
  40. # [16:08] <anne> last few messages in your inbox, doesn't really matter
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  43. # [16:51] * hsivonen tries to avoid participating in the alt thread
  44. # [16:54] <hsivonen> anne: and no, it's not just you
  45. # [16:54] * Quits: myakura (myakura@118.8.102.216) (Quit: Leaving...)
  46. # [16:55] <hsivonen> don't they really not realize that public services and a private person dumping some vacation photos somewhere are different cases
  47. # [16:56] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  48. # [17:11] <takkaria> PT doesn't recognise the weakness of the smoking analogy either
  49. # [17:11] <takkaria> "you must smoke outside" is moving behaviour from one place to another. "you must never smoke" is much closer to "you must provide alt text"
  50. # [17:12] <hsivonen> moreover, smoking has negative externaties but alt has positive externaties
  51. # [17:12] <hsivonen> it's different to inflict negative externaties than to fail to provide positive ones
  52. # [17:12] <Philip> But nobody is going to attempt to enforce a "you must provide alt text" requirement
  53. # [17:13] <takkaria> and given the success of prohibition with drugs, I suggest that the success of such a piece of law would be non-existent, and in that case, people wanting mandatory alt really don't want to analogise with smoking :)
  54. # [17:13] <gDashiva> takkaria: Don't disturb people digging their own graves unless you want to pick up the shovel yourself
  55. # [17:14] <takkaria> I wrote a reply, saved it to drafts, and deleted it
  56. # [17:14] <takkaria> it's almost as good as posting it except with fewer negative side-effects
  57. # [17:14] <gDashiva> Yeah, I've probably deleted more mails to public-html than I've sent
  58. # [17:16] <gDashiva> What are the human-user use-cases for language tags again?
  59. # [17:16] <gDashiva> Someone said copy-pasting into word and using spell checker, that seems a bit tangential
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  65. # [17:55] * jgraham is happy to find that everyone else thinks that alt thread is crazy too
  66. # [17:56] <takkaria> I think for the most part the people who want always-always-required alt are people who don't do much with images online
  67. # [17:57] <hsivonen> takkaria: I haven't seen an person who 1) is sighted, 2) publishes a lot of photos online and 3) argues that every image must have alt.
  68. # [17:57] <jgraham> hsivonen: Such a person would be too busy writing alt text to have any time to argue abut it :)
  69. # [17:58] <anne> jgraham, Philip, so either Thursday or Friday works, I'm staying at St Catharine's
  70. # [17:58] <hsivonen> (for the record, I don't consider even Joe Clark's Flickr stream to constitute "a lot" relative to other Flickr streams)
  71. # [17:59] <jgraham> anne: I think either is good for me.
  72. # [17:59] <gsnedders> anne: I was considering applying for Cat's for a while :P
  73. # [18:00] <hsivonen> of course, one might argue that e.g. Joe Clark's and jgraham's photo streams have quality over quantity compared to e.g. mine and anne's, but I think it would be unreasonable for someone else to decide if one should go with quality or quantity on Flickr
  74. # [18:00] <Philip> anne: Any date is equally good for me too
  75. # [18:02] <jgraham> hsivonen: Indeed. It's interesting to compare the descriptions early in Joe Clarke's photostream to the recent ones
  76. # [18:03] <jgraham> (that indeed was that one cannot mandate a tradeoff betwween quality and qunatity, not htat my photostream has quality :) )
  77. # [18:03] <jgraham> (Assuming I found the right Joe Clarke)
  78. # [18:05] <jgraham> It looks like I did
  79. # [18:09] <anne> jgraham, Philip, ok, lets decide Wednesday :)
  80. # [18:11] <jgraham> anne: You mean on Wednesday, right? Otherwise you just decided a day you can't make...
  81. # [18:12] <anne> yes, sorry for the ambiguity
  82. # [18:15] * anne wonders if he should ask David Poehlman to provide detailed descriptions of his nearly 2000 images in return
  83. # [18:34] <Philip> anne: That would be kind of hard for him to do when he can't see the images
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  89. # [19:23] <anne> Philip, didn't realize that
  90. # [19:49] <hsivonen> hmm. nothing about the most pressing issue of video in today's announcement: http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item142
  91. # [19:50] <takkaria> there's some good progress being made on the Theora encoder though
  92. # [19:51] <hsivonen> yeah, but still, an ontology announcement instead of a video codec licensing deal is a bit underwhelming
  93. # [19:54] <gDashiva> Philip: I'm pretty sure someone asked about that and was told that blind people were perfectly capable of making alt text
  94. # [19:55] <takkaria> I did
  95. # [19:55] <takkaria> and I was told, yes, the blind person obviously knows what the photo is because they took it
  96. # [19:56] <hsivonen> what about people with disabilities related to text input but who are quite capable of triggering a camera?
  97. # [19:57] <takkaria> pass
  98. # [19:57] <takkaria> I don't think posts consisting of "a18n is a right not a privilidge" helps anyone, either
  99. # [19:58] <hsivonen> takkaria: do you mean i18n or a12y?
  100. # [19:58] <takkaria> we, a12y
  101. # [19:58] <takkaria> s/er/er
  102. # [19:59] <takkaria> I forget the number of letters
  103. # [19:59] <gDashiva> a--y is much more accessible
  104. # [19:59] <gDashiva> It lets people fill in the blanks to get the word they want :D
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  106. # [20:10] <Philip> Accessibilitisation has one letter too few :-(
  107. # [20:20] <anne> Philip, jgraham, alternatively we could meet tomorrow for food or something
  108. # [20:20] <anne> I'm at heathrow at 15:15 so presumably there's plenty of time
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  110. # [20:22] <gDashiva> I like that line about not being able to _see_ shades of gray
  111. # [20:23] <jgraham> anne: Once you are through secuirity it should take about 2.5 hours to reach Cambridge assuming you are going via underground+train so, yes there would be plenty of time
  112. # [20:24] <jgraham> I can happily do tomorrow, Thursday or Friday
  113. # [20:26] <anne> I thought of taking the bus, is underground from King's Cross better?
  114. # [20:26] <anne> the bus being National Express which departs from Heathrow somewhere
  115. # [20:27] <jgraham> anne: I have always taken the train becuase I don't like busses. But even if I did I'm not sure that the bus has any compelling advantages. I guess you don't have to change
  116. # [20:29] <anne> does seem that train+underground might be as fast if not faster
  117. # [20:29] <anne> maybe cheaper too
  118. # [20:31] <jgraham> Yeah, it looks cheaper although I wouldn't be entirely sure the web proce is actually the same as the price you would be charged for the train
  119. # [20:31] <jgraham> (it could be lower)
  120. # [20:31] <jgraham> (i.e. it could be lower in real life than on the web. At least I think that has happened)
  121. # [20:33] <anne> k
  122. # [20:39] <hsivonen> if a non-accessibility person was saying stuff like "if they can do X, they can do Y", accessibility experts would be all over the thread explaining why capability to do Y doesn't follow from X
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  124. # [20:41] <anne> it seems it's quite hard to reason with these people, I guess I'll wait a few years before I attempt it again
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  126. # [20:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: to be fair I think most of the accessibility people would admit that "if they can upload 250 photos in a day they can write 250 descriptions of photos" is a total non-sequitur
  127. # [20:54] <jgraham> I wonder if anyone will point it out or if everyone hopes the thread dies before any more lunacy occurs
  128. # [20:55] * jmb is hoping it dies
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  131. # [21:24] <anne> hmm, I would assume that geotagging happens mostly automatically, by mapping GPS device data to photo dates
  132. # [21:24] <anne> of course, if we get software that generates alternate text automatically...
  133. # [21:47] <jgraham> anne: If I wasn't determined to retain email silence on that thread, I would point out that a) producing alternate text has an irreducible complexity that geotagging does not (since, as you say, geotagging can be done automatically), b) flickr currently gets ~4 million uploads a day and has almost 3 billion photos. Facebook apparently has even more. Just over 1 million photos having metadata added on the first day it was possible to do so after the feature
  134. # [21:47] <jgraham> alt text does not
  135. # [21:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: also, people already had geotagged data on Flickr before it was an official feature
  136. # [21:50] <jgraham> d) I rarely bother to geotag my photos even though there is some non-negligible personal benefit to factor in to the cost/benefit analysis
  137. # [21:50] <hsivonen> I've managed to geotag a whopping 6% of my Flickr items
  138. # [21:51] <hsivonen> (without automatic data gathering)
  139. # [21:51] <jgraham> People have cameras that automagically geotag, right? I wonder if they end up exposing their home address and similar information by mistake
  140. # [21:51] <hsivonen> (mainly by dropping a lot of photos taken indoors to one location when there have been so many photos at one location that it's low-hanging fruit)
  141. # [21:52] <hsivonen> I live in Finland, so the government already makes my home address ridiculously easy to acquire
  142. # [21:53] <hsivonen> s/acquire/obtain/
  143. # [21:55] <hsivonen> I'd probably use geotagging more if Flickr made it really simple to copy location data from Wikipedia
  144. # [21:57] <anne> the annoying thing about geotagging is that you can't say "this was taken in Utrecht, the Netherlands" and then it uses some GPS coordinate +- radius
  145. # [21:58] <anne> you have to pick something annoyingly precise which is probably not at all accurate unless you got the data from a GPS device
  146. # [21:58] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.15.230) (Quit: adele)
  147. # [21:59] <anne> in a few years most cameras are hopefully equiped with it
  148. # [22:01] <Philip> jgraham: You missed point c, and possibly point b was truncated
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  150. # [22:03] * Philip doesn't think he's seen a digital camera that even has the correct time on it, never mind the correct location
  151. # [22:04] <Philip> Do GPS ones discover the time automatically (and account for timezones and DST)?
  152. # [22:04] <jgraham> Philip: Oh. Well they weren't that interesting anyway :)
  153. # [22:04] * hsivonen has on a couple occasions taken a photo of the clock on someone else's camera in order to shift exif and merge sets later
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  155. # [22:04] <jgraham> b) flickr currently gets ~4 million uploads a
  156. # [22:04] <jgraham> day and has almost 3 billion photos. Facebook apparently has even more. Just over 1 million photos having metadata added on the first day it
  157. # [22:04] <jgraham> was possible to do so after the feature recieved an enormous amount of hype is not that significant. c) geolocation metadata provides the
  158. # [22:04] <jgraham> author with immediate tangible benefits
  159. # [22:05] <anne> yeah, so far no solid argument has been put forward, in fact, they were all quite crappy
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  167. # [23:34] <lyosha> would this be the right place to discuss current browsers' behavior with html 5?
  168. # [23:35] <jgraham> lyosha: Probably
  169. # [23:35] <jgraham> Depending on what the question is :)
  170. # [23:37] <lyosha> well, html 5 is supposed to degrade gracefully in older browsers, but in some cases it doesn't (although most browsers can be forced to do this using javascript). I'm writing a script that does just that for all older browsers (well, the relavent ones anyway), but I'm having trouble with Konqueror.
  171. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Is that relevant? :)
  172. # [23:39] * Philip knows a person who uses Konqueror
  173. # [23:39] <gsnedders> "a".
  174. # [23:40] <Philip> Actually that's probably about the same as the number of people who I know use IE
  175. # [23:40] <gsnedders> Ah. So not a good sample.
  176. # [23:41] <gsnedders> I ought to go to bed, seeming I have school tomorrow.
  177. # [23:41] <lyosha> well, if we could make a script that fixes html 5 in Konqi, why not? I've got part of it working sort of
  178. # [23:42] <lyosha> I can create any of the new elements in Javascript and they will get styles and everything, but I can't get the elements that were written in the html
  179. # [23:42] <Philip> If it can be made to work, that sounds better than not having it work
  180. # [23:43] <lyosha> brb
  181. # [23:44] <Philip> Hmm, looks like Konqueror 3.5.something just ignores unknown tags entirely and doesn't put them in the DOM at all
  182. # [23:49] <lyosha> yeah, that's the problem
  183. # [23:53] <lyosha> Konqueror 4 is fully forward compatible with the new elements (as in, degrades gracefully)
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  185. # [23:58] <lyosha> so far, my script takes care of IE6,7 and Firefox2. I haven't tested Firefox1.5-, IE5.5-*, IE Mac*, Opera 9.2x-, *=irrelavent
  186. # Session Close: Tue Aug 19 00:00:00 2008

The end :)