/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-08-19 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Aug 19 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:00] <lyosha> I expanded on an example script for Firefox2, which some people say that it works for IE as well, but it doesn't let you use attributes on the elements in IE, so I have a separate part for IE
# [00:01] <lyosha> so, do you think I should try to support Konqueror 3.5.x or consider it irrelevant?
# [00:02] <anne> Opera should just work
# [00:02] <anne> except that you need to add display:block and such
# [00:02] <anne> well, and <figure> / <legend> prolly doesn't work
# [00:03] <lyosha> yeah, Opera 9.5, Safari 3.x, Firefox 3, and Konq 4 all work
# [00:03] <lyosha> I haven't tried the figure legend yet tho
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# [00:04] <lyosha> should probably add a fix for those on browsers where it doesn't work
# [00:04] <Philip> I don't see an obvious way to make this work in Konqueror 3.5, so I wouldn't be too terribly upset if it wasn't supported
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# [00:06] <lyosha> the only way I can think of, is reading and parsing the whole document manually with javascript and rebuilding the DOM tree yourself (which is probably kinda stupid, LOL)
# [00:06] <Philip> hsivonen was planning on doing something like that, I believe
# [00:06] <Philip> with an HTML5 parser written in JS
# [00:06] <hsivonen> yes
# [00:07] <hsivonen> no promised ETA, though
# [00:07] <hsivonen> lyosha: http://livedom.validator.nu/ has an HTML5 parser in JS
# [00:08] <hsivonen> svn co http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/build/trunk/ build
# [00:08] <hsivonen> doh
# [00:08] <hsivonen> svn co http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/htmlparser/trunk/ htmlparser
# [00:08] <lyosha> well, no problem with that, but I mean to fix the display of every web page in just one browser is probably not the reason to do it. I'm sure you have a different purpose for it than that, hsivonen
# [00:09] <hsivonen> lyosha: the purpose of the HTML5 live DOM is to 1) experiment with document.write() and browser-like event loop in the context of the Validator.nu HTML Parser codebase and 2) to help people who work of specifying HTML5
# [00:10] <hsivonen> lyosha: the purpose of later wrapping it as a JS library would be to remove a disincentive for authors to move to HTML5 parsing when browsers support it natively
# [00:10] <hsivonen> by allowing similar but slower results in older browsers (that are now current)
# [00:12] * Philip wonders how many orders of magnitude slower it would be
# [00:12] * Philip 's uneducated guess would be somewhere between 2 and 3
# [00:14] <lyosha> thing is, it wouldn't make sense to do this one thing for the sake of just doing it seeing as how konq3 should be declining when people switch to KDE 4 by that time: if (browser == konq3.5) { /*reparse just to fix display*/ }
# [00:14] <jgraham> Philip: 3 seems quite pessimistic
# [00:15] <lyosha> however, if the work you're doing for other bigger causes can give u the above as a side effect, well, no problem
# [00:15] <Philip> jgraham: But 2 seems quite optimistic, and I want an integer range :-)
# [00:16] <Philip> (particularly since old browsers (at which this is aimed) won't have any of the shiny new 'fast' JS implementations)
# [00:16] <jgraham> A factor of 100 slower seems about right given the relative speed of html5lib and a C parser
# [00:16] <jgraham> Philip: Presumably this is also aimed at FF3 for example
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# [00:17] <lyosha> well, unless there is a simple way to fix Konq3.5, I don't think it's worth the trouble supporting it for now
# [00:17] <Philip> There's the whole building-a-page-through-the-DOM-API thing too, which is not likely to be terribly speedy, particularly if there's non-linear performance somewhere in it
# [00:18] <lyosha> do you think Firefox 1.5 is worth the trouble? (haven't tested it yet)
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# [00:19] <Philip> I'd guess it should be fairly easy to support if you already handle FF2
# [00:19] <Philip> No idea how much market share it still has, though
# [00:20] <lyosha> btw, with a whole document reparser, XHTML 2.0 can work in older browsers, and that's not HTML5's goal, so that's y I wouldn't want to reparse for Konq3
# [00:20] <lyosha> FF2 still has quite a bit of market share, FF1.5, not sure at the moment
# [00:21] <lyosha> now, how about adding Lynx support?
# [00:21] <lyosha> lol
# [00:27] <lyosha> Firefox market share by version — NetApplications.com, July 2008 Firefox 1.0 - 0.18% | Firefox 1.5 - 0.32% | Firefox 2.0 - 13.06% | Firefox 3.0 - 5.64% | All versions - 19.23%
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# [00:30] <lyosha> anybody know how well Opera 9.2x- fare with html5?
# [00:31] <anne> just told you, should just work
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# [00:33] <lyosha> yeah, do u know down to which version? I meant going lower than 9.2x as well, such as 9.0, 8.5, etc. and which are still considered relevant?
# [00:34] <lyosha> I don't know how many people use 8.x, but I do remember some people complaining about 9 when it came out
# [00:34] <anne> I think 9 works and from what I remember 8.5 worked, but that's not really that relevant anymore
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# [00:34] <lyosha> ok, thanks
# [00:35] <hsivonen> 8.x is relevant in the sense that Opera for S60 is stuck at 8.65
# [00:35] <anne> is there no Opera Mini for S60?
# [00:36] <hsivonen> Opera Mini runs on S60, yes
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# [00:37] <hsivonen> but it can't switch between Desktop Mode and SSR easily
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# [00:37] <hsivonen> need to go to prefs and then reload
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# [00:37] <hsivonen> the native app has a one-key shortcut for switching render modes
# [00:38] <lyosha> so, here's my target browser list (see if I need to change anything): IE6+, Opera 9+ (or 8.5+?), Firefox2+, Konqueror4+, Safari3.x+ (should I go with 3.0+ or 3.1+?)
# [00:40] <lyosha> seems like a sane target?
# [00:40] <anne> yes
# [00:40] * anne is off to bed, nn
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# [00:44] <lyosha> where can I get a good list of things incompatible with html 5 in current browsers? I know what most of them are, but I'm sure to forget something. (or maybe I should wait till the spec is closer finished before going further than new elements? web forms 2.0 has already been done)
# [00:45] <Hixie> what do you mean by "incompatible"? there are various levels of compatibility
# [00:46] <lyosha> well, that pretty much don't work in many current browsers. various elements, attributes, etc.
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# [00:47] <Hixie> oh, like, what's new?
# [00:47] <lyosha> so far I have: recognition and styling of new elements (mostly done), figure/legend (todo), web forms 2.0 (not going to do, has been done already)
# [00:47] <lyosha> yeah
# [00:47] <Hixie> i don't know how up to date it is, but http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html is some sort of list of new stuff
# [00:48] <lyosha> and various parts are more finished than others so would make more sense to start working on than others, right?
# [00:49] <Hixie> working on stuff that's more stable means less work for you, working on stuff that is less stable means that you have a good chance of influencing how the spec evolves
# [00:50] <Hixie> so it's up to you :-)
# [00:50] <Hixie> many sections have little annotations on the side
# [00:50] <Hixie> saying how stable they are
# [00:52] <lyosha> well, I guess I'll try working on what's probably going to be most important and most used features of html 5
# [00:54] <lyosha> but I have to keep it simple. if it's something like web forms 2.0, I'll let other take care of it (and others have) even though it is a major feature
# [01:00] <lyosha> is there anything in particular that people would like fixes for? I know the new structure elements is one (and I've done that), but I'm still learning and experimenting with the new html 5 features, and I might not use it as creatively as others and won't be able to include everything people have ran in to. Other things are pretty easy already, such as <m> (AFAIK)
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# [01:08] <lyosha> I wonder if anyone has tried implementing <audio> and <video> for current browsers (eg. translate it to <embed> or something).
# [01:09] <lyosha> <m> has been changed to <mark>?
# [01:09] <Hixie> yes
# [01:10] <lyosha> which question was being answered, <mark>?
# [01:10] <Hixie> yes :-)
# [01:10] <lyosha> ok, thx
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# [01:15] <lyosha> I think I'm going to release what I have for now (maybe after a bit more testing) and then add features as I need them or as people add new features (I'm taking this out of a website I'm doing for work, so like most of my work, it's driven by my needs rather than just making a complete implementation right away)
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# [02:17] <lyosha> anybody wanna suggest a name for the script?
# [02:17] <lyosha> I'm not too great with names. "htmlizer"? sounds too cheesy
# [02:22] <lyosha> when Dean was targeting one browser (IE6) to make it more compatible with standards, choosing the name (ie7) wasn't very hard. But I can't do Opera10Firefox4IE9Konqueror5Safari4
# [02:23] <lyosha> actually, that gave me an idea: OFIKS 10.4.9.5.4
# [02:23] <lyosha> lol
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# [02:26] <lyosha> how else could we put it? FIKSO, SOFIK, FISOK, or maybe we can just pretend Opera gets it 100% and call it FIKS HTML
# [02:27] <Hixie> Or just use that to derive a name, like "Fisko"
# [02:28] <lyosha> only thing is, does the name sound like something that will make html 5 compatible with current browsers?
# [02:29] <beowulf> html5er?
# [02:30] <Hixie> i wouldn't worry too much about whether the name is self-explanatory, people will learn what it is if it ends up being successful
# [02:30] <beowulf> true
# [02:30] <Hixie> i mean, does "dojo" sound like a DOM library?
# [02:31] <Hixie> and does "html" sound like anything at all? :-)
# [02:33] <lyosha> I've heard things like "what's htimell?" b4. lol
# [02:33] <Hixie> :-)
# [02:35] <lyosha> but that doesn't matter to those who use this thingy anyways
# [02:35] <lyosha> if u don't know what html is, this script isn't for you kind of thing
# [02:37] <lyosha> "FIKS Browser"
# [02:39] <lyosha> OpFiKoSaIn <- first 2 letters of all the browsers = nonesense
# [02:39] <lyosha> I though of html5er, and it seems like a sane name, but would I want to make an html6er later?
# [02:40] <lyosha> or use one name for the whole project, including future html versions
# [02:41] <lyosha> then again, I don't know what html 6 will be like and most likely 'html5er' will have to be completely rewritten for html 6 or will just be irrelevant
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# [02:42] <lyosha> so html5er isn't bad, not the catchiest, most creative name in the world, but it's all right I guess
# [02:43] <Hixie> the problem with using html5er is that it somewhat limits your scope to just html5 things
# [02:43] <Hixie> you might well find people want you to add things from other specs
# [02:44] <Hixie> i always look at BP as a great example of how to not name a company
# [02:44] <Hixie> British Petroleum -- a name that proved problematic when they became international and expanded outside of oil
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# [02:48] <lyosha> btw, the only way I've been able to fix Firefox 2- is by wrapping the contents of new block level elements in <div>s in the html. and to avoid that, I think reparsing the document and rebuilding the DOM tree is the only way to fix it (again, not my goal) or serving it as XHTML
# [02:49] <lyosha> the script then takes the next element to the new element and places it inside it (which is that div)
# [02:50] <lyosha> it also works if you only have one block level element inside the new element
# [02:51] <lyosha> such as <nav><ul>...</ul></nav>
# [02:51] <lyosha> <article><p></p><p></p></article> won't work in Firefox 2
# [02:51] <lyosha> you have to do <article><div><p></p><p></p></div></article>
# [02:52] <lyosha> is there a way to define elements on the fly in browsers?
# [02:53] <lyosha> pseudocode:
# [02:53] <lyosha> document.defineElement('article', 'block');
# [02:53] <lyosha> making <article><p></p><p></p></article>act as it should
# [02:54] <lyosha> IE does this with document.createElement
# [02:56] <lyosha> any element placed in the html after document.createElement('element') is a fully 'defined' and 'recognized' element in IE
# [02:56] <Hixie> only IE allows its parser to change behaviour in response to unrelated DOM calls like that as far as i know
# [02:57] <lyosha> which would probably then make it impossible in Firefox 2 without reparsing the document or wrapping the content in <div>s
# [02:59] <lyosha> really, that's the hardest part (or probably just impossible): reading correctly from the DOM the undefined elements. The rest is piece of cake.
# [02:59] <lyosha> javascript can emulate all the rest of html 5 without a problem
# [02:59] <Hixie> not all of it, but yeah :-)
# [02:59] <lyosha> well, yeah
# [02:59] <Hixie> (e.g. good luck emulating the Workers stuff!)
# [03:04] <lyosha> well, I g2g. I'll post the link once I put the project up. (so far, it's pretty small, but I think it will expand soon enough)
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# [20:32] <DanC> I'm reading bits and pieces of the alt thread; I don't see any new arguments in the last week or two. I wonder what prompted the latest outbreak
# [20:32] <DanC> anne, did you read the whole thread before chiming in?
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# Session Close: Wed Aug 20 00:00:00 2008

The end :)