/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-08-21 / end

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  61. # [08:26] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2008JulSep/0072.html
  62. # [08:27] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2008JulSep/0073.html
  63. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> [[ ATAG 2.0 never advocates forcing because it just leads to
  64. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> alt="@#$%".
  65. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> ]]
  66. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> ...is worth quoting
  67. # [08:33] <timeless> heh
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  69. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you put any more thought at all into the thing I mentioned about embedded assertion-like statements in v.nu non-schema-checking code?
  70. # [08:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think more documentation is good.
  71. # [08:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so in that sense, I want to do it
  72. # [08:40] * Quits: heycam (cam@80.187.145.121) (Quit: bye)
  73. # [08:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but the tendency is that there's always more code than documented code :-(
  74. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> yep
  75. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> understood
  76. # [08:41] <hsivonen> I filed a reminder bug for myself
  77. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> cool
  78. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> thanks
  79. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> hey, one more thing I wanted to ask about is, are the v.nu schemas meant to be up-to-date with the spec, or do you have a TODO list for changes that need to be made?
  80. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> I ask specifically because I notice that ol@reversed is not in the schema yet
  81. # [08:47] <hsivonen> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/buglist.cgi?component=HTML5+schema&bug_status=NEW is the TODO list. If there's something that isn't implemented and isn't on that list, it's a defect in the list
  82. # [08:47] * hsivonen goes add ol@reversed
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  85. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: @reversed the only missing case I've noticed so far
  86. # [08:50] <hsivonen> checked in
  87. # [08:50] <hsivonen> will deploy in a moment
  88. # [08:50] <hsivonen> thanks
  89. # [08:59] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.77.4)
  90. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> ls
  91. # [09:05] <marcos> Anyone know what state Web IDL is at?
  92. # [09:05] <Hixie> heycam is on vacation or working on something or something which means that it won't be updated for a few weeks
  93. # [09:06] <Hixie> but other than that it's pretty stable
  94. # [09:06] <Hixie> there's a number of issues i'm waiting on that are blocking html5 progress though
  95. # [09:06] <marcos> Great! Thanks Hixie.
  96. # [09:06] <Hixie> (like callbacks)
  97. # [09:06] <marcos> I see
  98. # [09:07] * Joins: heycam (cam@80.187.144.123)
  99. # [09:07] <timeless> !summon
  100. # [09:08] <marcos> Ah, the man himself (HeyCam)
  101. # [09:08] <heycam> hello marcos
  102. # [09:08] <marcos> Hey, I was just asking about the state of WebIDL.
  103. # [09:09] <heycam> i think waiting on a WD publication
  104. # [09:09] <marcos> I've rewritten a requirement for widgets that mandates that all interfaces be in WebIDL, but what wondering if it is stable enough to mandate such a thing.
  105. # [09:09] <heycam> and waiting on some time for me to get to work on it (probably in a few weeks i'll get some time)
  106. # [09:09] <heycam> depends what sort of time frame you're looking at for Widgets
  107. # [09:10] <marcos> Well, do you think it will be done within a year?
  108. # [09:10] <heycam> i think so
  109. # [09:10] <marcos> Ok, that sounds good then :)
  110. # [09:11] <marcos> I needed a good excuse to learn it, so putting it in a MUST requirement:)
  111. # [09:11] <marcos> as
  112. # [09:11] <heycam> so, you can just sort of assume that web idl will end up saying sensible things :)
  113. # [09:12] <heycam> what sort of interfaces do you define?
  114. # [09:12] <heycam> (got a url?)
  115. # [09:12] <marcos> sure, but the dev.w3 is down :(
  116. # [09:12] <heycam> :/
  117. # [09:12] <marcos> dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-api/
  118. # [09:13] <marcos> Currently in MarcosAndArveIDL :P
  119. # [09:13] <timeless> > holy crap, the w3c sells links to spammers
  120. # [09:13] <timeless> > that's... insanely twisted, even for them
  121. # [09:13] <timeless> > http://www.w3.org/Consortium/sup
  122. # [09:13] <heycam> timeless, i did see that a week or so ago, strange!
  123. # [09:14] <heycam> various viagra/cialis links...
  124. # [09:14] <timeless> i think i like the Firefox link
  125. # [09:14] <timeless> which isn't a moco property afaict, i'm going to ask the legal people about it
  126. # [09:14] <timeless> those usually get squished
  127. # [09:14] <marcos> http://www.my-wedding-blog.com/ :P
  128. # [09:14] <marcos> oh and http://researchdietpills.com/
  129. # [09:15] <timeless> hey, the wedding site is actually pretty
  130. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm getting "error: undeclared prefix "w" "
  131. # [09:15] <timeless> ooh shiny [flowers]
  132. # [09:15] <marcos> LOL
  133. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> I think it needs to be d:string "reversed" | d:string ""
  134. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> hmm, no
  135. # [09:16] <Hixie> those are pretty expensive links given that google almost certainly considers that page to be spam
  136. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: there just needs to be a namespace declaration for the prefix in the block.rnc file, I guess
  137. # [09:17] * MikeSmith tries that
  138. # [09:18] <marcos> heh "Members and non-Members alike make general contributions, both financial and of goods...". When we get to TPAC we will all get a bag of goodies! Viagra, Diet-pills, and hair-loss remedies.
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  140. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> ah, datatypes w = "http://whattf.org/datatype-draft"
  141. # [09:22] <marcos> Is anyone here going to TPAC this year? (I'm wondering if I should stick around for the HTML-WG meeting)
  142. # [09:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oops. that what I get from checking in a "trivial" change without running it...
  143. # [09:22] <hsivonen> fix checked in
  144. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> thanks
  145. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> marcos: I'm going :)
  146. # [09:23] <timeless> i'm planning on being there
  147. # [09:23] <timeless> on my vacation :)
  148. # [09:23] <timeless> ther'es actually a mozilla thing west of there hopefully later
  149. # [09:23] <timeless> if i'm lucky and time things well, i can make both
  150. # [09:25] <hsivonen> timeless: how much later?
  151. # [09:28] <timeless> um... it's in spain
  152. # [09:28] <timeless> fwiw bmo 451511 (locked!) covers the firefox link
  153. # [09:28] <hsivonen> oh. that much west
  154. # [09:28] <timeless> tpac's in france, no?
  155. # [09:28] <hsivonen> yes
  156. # [09:29] <timeless> france, spain.... they can't be that far apart
  157. # [09:29] <timeless> it's a small contient!
  158. # [09:29] <timeless> s/ie/ine/
  159. # [09:29] <timeless> ok, how in the world do i search for something that was once on planet?
  160. # [09:30] <hsivonen> timeless: not a supported use case, I think
  161. # [09:30] <timeless> clearly
  162. # [09:31] <timeless> well, only 5 pages of rss/atom feeds, surely i can just import them all and find it!
  163. # [09:32] * timeless points google reader to http://planet.mozilla.org/opml.xml
  164. # [09:34] <timeless> probably Caceres Open Source congress (October 24th) ?
  165. # [09:36] <timeless> ok, i can't find it
  166. # [09:36] <timeless> this is annoying
  167. # [09:36] <timeless> http://somethin-else.org/index.php?post/2008/08/20/Mozilla-Camp-Europe
  168. # [09:36] <timeless> (google reader eventually won)
  169. # [09:37] <hsivonen> timeless: thanks.
  170. # [09:37] <timeless> if you manage to create a calendar event...
  171. # [09:37] <hsivonen> the event isn't particularly googlable. Marcos has more google juice than the event. :-)
  172. # [09:38] <timeless> yeah, no kidding
  173. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: one last revision needed for @reversed i think
  174. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> ol.attrs =
  175. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> ( common.attrs
  176. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> & ol.attrs.start?
  177. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> + & ol.attrs.reversed?
  178. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> & ( common.attrs.aria
  179. # [09:38] <timeless> the fact that 'spain' isn't in the article doesn't help matters
  180. # [09:38] <timeless> and i foolishly collapsed 'barcelona' into 'spain'
  181. # [09:38] <timeless> stupid american...
  182. # [09:39] * timeless needs to learn not to make assumptions about geography
  183. # [09:39] <timeless> it's like collapsing finland into europe
  184. # [09:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I really need to run stuff first. (the deployment is so slow that I switch windows before it's running...)
  185. # [09:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry about that. Now I'll wait until it's up and running.
  186. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: np
  187. # [09:41] <timeless> hsivonen, can you fix https://wiki.mozilla.org/EU_MozCamp_2008 so that it mentions "Spain"?
  188. # [09:41] * timeless sighs
  189. # [09:41] <timeless> you'd think people working on a web browser would know how to make things findable
  190. # [09:41] <timeless> heck, evne viagra sales people know how to do that :)
  191. # [09:41] <marcos> :)
  192. # [09:42] <hsivonen> timeless: hmm. it appears I have credentials only for devmo
  193. # [09:49] <hsivonen> hopefully it's more googlable now
  194. # [09:50] <timeless> thanks
  195. # [09:50] <timeless> now where was i?
  196. # [09:51] * timeless clicks send and hopes it's coherent
  197. # [09:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. now it's checked in, deployed and tested
  198. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> sweet
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  229. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: another question about the HTML5 schema: I notice that the head content model expands out to this:
  230. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> head = title & base? & (link | style | meta.elem.name | meta.elem.http-equiv | meta.elem.encoding | script | noscript.elem.head | (form.elem.empty) | (command) | (event-source))* & head.attrs
  231. # [13:05] <hsivonen> that looks about right
  232. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> form, command, and event-source allowed in head?
  233. # [13:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the first childness of the encoding declaration is handled in Schematron
  234. # [13:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah.
  235. # [13:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: blame Hixie :-)
  236. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> heh
  237. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> oK
  238. # [13:06] <anne> we should remove <form> I think
  239. # [13:06] <anne> the others make some sense
  240. # [13:06] <anne> (and the others will actually work in text/html too)
  241. # [13:34] <hsivonen> which browsers implementing local storage don't have Same Origin restriction on it: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=652149&cid=24681625
  242. # [13:36] <anne> I think Mozilla and IE8 currently have globalStorage which uses the old broken model
  243. # [13:36] <anne> hopefully Mozilla fixes this for Firefox 3.1, but I don't kno
  244. # [13:36] <anne> w
  245. # [13:38] <tlr> see also: http://tinyurl.com/5ovkqc
  246. # [13:38] <anne> does not exist?
  247. # [13:39] <hsivonen> http://www.isecpartners.com/files/RIA_World_BH_2008.pdf
  248. # [13:40] <tlr> gah
  249. # [13:40] <tlr> so much for a borken tinyurl mozilla add-on
  250. # [13:40] <tlr> hsivonen found what I meant
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  272. # [15:42] * anne downloads
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  276. # [15:50] <anne> interesting that these people don't e-mail either the WHATWG or HTML WG
  277. # [15:53] <Philip> That would result in far less publicity than giving conference presentations
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  301. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  302. # [18:00] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  303. # [18:00] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  304. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-irc
  305. # [18:00] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  306. # [18:00] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  307. # [18:00] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  308. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
  309. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  310. # [18:00] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  311. # [18:00] <trackbot> Date: 21 August 2008
  312. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> Chair: MikeSmith
  313. # [18:01] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.183.190)
  314. # [18:01] <anne> Apologies, I'm in a CSS WG meeting and forgot to e-mail.
  315. # [18:01] <DanC> noted, anne
  316. # [18:02] <anne> I'm available for questions though, as we're discussing font matching and I'm not really knowledgeable in that :)
  317. # [18:02] <anne> (having said that, it's interesting)
  318. # [18:03] * DanC realizes that some combination of team contact and chair probably should have looked at the CSS WG ftf agenda for coordination purposes
  319. # [18:03] * DanC hunts for said agenda, hoping maybe anne has it handy...
  320. # [18:04] * Joins: robburns (robburns@84.108.29.206)
  321. # [18:04] * DanC gets as far as http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2008/Cambridge.html ...
  322. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  323. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  324. # [18:04] <anne> I'm afraid the agenda was a) really late and b) no longer reflecting reality
  325. # [18:04] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  326. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Mike
  327. # [18:04] <anne> (the CSS WG F2F agenda that is)
  328. # [18:05] * anne looks for the original
  329. # [18:05] * DanC finds topics are on a wiki... http://csswg.inkedblade.net/planning/cambridge-2008
  330. # [18:05] <shepazu> the SVG WG wants to HTML and SVG to align on an issue of focused elements when they are removed from the tree... could I bring this up here, or what?
  331. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  332. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike
  333. # [18:05] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Quit: zcorpan)
  334. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
  335. # [18:05] <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aaaa is me
  336. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  337. # [18:05] * DanC finds "Create a 'milestones' roadmap" particularly interesting; wonders if discussion of it is actually happening
  338. # [18:05] <anne> DanC, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0133.html
  339. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  340. # [18:06] <anne> DanC, so the last point of today does align with what we're discussing at this point, that's good :)
  341. # [18:06] * shepazu zakim code?
  342. # [18:06] <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  343. # [18:06] <anne> DanC, though Friday item 1 has been discussed yesterday
  344. # [18:06] <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus
  345. # [18:06] <oedipus> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
  346. # [18:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, oedipus
  347. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P14
  348. # [18:07] <Zakim> -??P14
  349. # [18:07] * oedipus shepazu, html#
  350. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> shepazu: yeah, OK
  351. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  352. # [18:07] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  353. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> (about your question)
  354. # [18:08] * shepazu is having trouble skyping in
  355. # [18:08] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  356. # [18:08] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  357. # [18:08] <Zakim> +DanC
  358. # [18:08] <robburns> robburns
  359. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the call?
  360. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, [IPcaller], DanC
  361. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P0
  362. # [18:08] <robburns> yes, I'm on the phone listening
  363. # [18:09] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.74)
  364. # [18:09] <smedero> If anyone needs help with the issue tracking system, you can ping me on IRC. I can't make the call though... I've got to deal with my relator via phone at this time.
  365. # [18:09] <robburns> Zakim, IPcaller is robburns
  366. # [18:09] <Zakim> +robburns; got it
  367. # [18:09] <shepazu> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  368. # [18:09] <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
  369. # [18:09] <oedipus> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  370. # [18:09] * DanC found that little skype echo loop kinda psychadelic
  371. # [18:10] * shepazu thinks we might be able to sell it, DanC
  372. # [18:10] <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Addenda
  373. # [18:10] <oedipus> DS: how to address SVG in HTML5
  374. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.218.349.aabb
  375. # [18:11] <shepazu> s/SVG in HTML5/focus issues/
  376. # [18:11] <oedipus> MS: issue is - focused elements when removed from tree
  377. # [18:11] <DanC> Zakim, aabb is Laura
  378. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Laura; got it
  379. # [18:11] * oedipus thanks doug - was doing something else
  380. # [18:11] * oedipus mentally - i think
  381. # [18:11] <oedipus> MS: other agenda addenda?
  382. # [18:11] * Joins: ed (ed@88.128.89.186)
  383. # [18:11] * Quits: myakura (myakura@118.8.102.216) (Quit: Leaving...)
  384. # [18:11] <oedipus> DC: you Mike?
  385. # [18:11] <Julian> q+
  386. # [18:11] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  387. # [18:11] <oedipus> MS: goals for call - end early
  388. # [18:11] <oedipus> no objections logged
  389. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  390. # [18:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  391. # [18:12] <oedipus> JR: finished discussing how to procede with open issues in tracker - have nagging feeling not proceding
  392. # [18:12] <oedipus> MS: talked about issue of making HTML5 compliant with XSLT output = HTML
  393. # [18:13] <oedipus> MS: give myself action on that
  394. # [18:13] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-54 html5-from-xslt
  395. # [18:13] <Laura> regrets+ Joshue
  396. # [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  397. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  398. # [18:13] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  399. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5
  400. # [18:13] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  401. # [18:13] * RRSAgent records action 1
  402. # [18:13] <trackbot> Created ACTION-74 - Raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-08-28].
  403. # [18:14] * ChrisWilson is sorry he's late
  404. # [18:14] <Julian> thanks
  405. # [18:14] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  406. # [18:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  407. # [18:14] <Zakim> +??P11
  408. # [18:14] <hsivonen> Zakim, +??P11 is hsivonen
  409. # [18:14] <Zakim> sorry, hsivonen, I do not recognize a party named '+??P11'
  410. # [18:14] <oedipus> MS: issues hixie said are making changes to spec - what to do next - which move ahead with in discussion leading to resolution
  411. # [18:14] <DanC> (I thought we were using "pending review" for the ones where the editor had considered all arguments.)
  412. # [18:14] <shepazu> Zakim, ??P11 is hsivonen
  413. # [18:14] <Zakim> +hsivonen; got it
  414. # [18:15] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is talking?
  415. # [18:15] * DanC Zakim, who's making noise?
  416. # [18:15] * shepazu hsivonen, leave off the +
  417. # [18:15] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hsivonen (19%), Mike (92%)
  418. # [18:15] * Zakim DanC, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  419. # [18:15] <oedipus> MS: want to get feedback from henriS - issue raised b/c no way to output HTML5 doctagged document from XSLT output
  420. # [18:16] <Julian> q+
  421. # [18:16] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  422. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  423. # [18:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  424. # [18:16] <oedipus> MS: HenriS pointed out least of problems with HTML output from XSLT engines; list of problems; having discussion about his list of problems on list
  425. # [18:17] <oedipus> JR: HenriS has good list but XSLT 1.0 doesn't have any problems writing average HTML docs except for doctypes - interesting for future of XSLT development, but distraction from core issue
  426. # [18:17] <DanC> (I'm inclined to postpone ISSUE-54 html5-from-xslt , pending a new output mode for XSLT)
  427. # [18:17] <hsivonen> q+ to say that the namespace thing is more core
  428. # [18:17] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  429. # [18:17] <oedipus> DanC: seems like core issue to me - what is issue then?
  430. # [18:17] <oedipus> MS: very specifically about cannot generate doctype of HTML5 with public identifier
  431. # [18:17] <oedipus> DanC: working group issue - changed to include things henri mentioned in request
  432. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  433. # [18:18] <Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to say that the namespace thing is more core
  434. # [18:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  435. # [18:18] <oedipus> MS: but julian said, a lot of other edge cases - doctype is low hanging fruit - one that is most important - could optionally put public/system identifier on HTML5 doctype - think would be ok, but want others' opinions
  436. # [18:19] <Julian> q+
  437. # [18:19] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  438. # [18:19] <oedipus> HS: new empty elements and namespaces; empty element issue - want to use event source, you can - those "edge cases" are what are new in HTML5 - if not using new features of HTML5, use HTML4
  439. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> q+ to say "I think we should have a public identifier, because as I've said before having some version ID is good programming practice"
  440. # [18:19] * Zakim sees Julian, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  441. # [18:19] <shepazu> HTML5 is meant to replace HTML4, no?
  442. # [18:19] <DanC> (hmm... isn't the HTML 5 spec intended to obsolete HTML 4? why should anybody bother with HTML 4? I guess I better double-check...)
  443. # [18:19] * gsnedders hopes we don't get into this perma-thread again
  444. # [18:19] * gsnedders (the versioning one)
  445. # [18:20] * DanC notes that the versioning issue is open, so we should expect to get into it again until we close it
  446. # [18:20] <anne> (I don't think it does anything with HTML4 at all.)
  447. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> q?
  448. # [18:20] * Zakim sees Julian, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  449. # [18:20] <oedipus> HS: other problem - namespace - old HTML needs custom XSLT because in no namespace - would be endoresement of XSLT not capable of outputting HTML - not evolvable, so if add SVG or MathML later, have code base based on a hack without right namespace - tweaking to allow using old HTML output mode for HTML5 doctype gives false sense of security and encourages them to do wrong thing rather than creating tree for XSLT to output HMTL5
  450. # [18:20] <anne> (It effectively obsoletes it as far as user agents are concerned though.)
  451. # [18:20] <oedipus> MS: excellent points
  452. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> q+ to respond to hsivonen
  453. # [18:20] * Zakim sees Julian, ChrisWilson, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  454. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  455. # [18:20] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  456. # [18:22] <DanC> (olivier has got Henri's validator code glued into the w3c validation service code, and there's an interesting question of when to use which code; seems to me the html5 validator should be invoked on docs with the html4 doctype too, since that's how browsers treat them. I'm not sure.)
  457. # [18:22] <oedipus> JR: 2 things: plenty of things in HTML5 one would want to try (new navigation elements), but no way to do except through hack; second agreee that drawback of XSLT HTML output mode but been copied for years - claiming critical now is a distraction; XHTML generating stylesheet so can mechanically write XSLT to output what you need; don't think these are reasons not to discuss main issue for which ticket opened
  458. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> ack ChrisWilson
  459. # [18:22] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to say "I think we should have a public identifier, because as I've said before having some version ID is good programming practice"
  460. # [18:22] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  461. # [18:22] <oedipus> CW: having public identifier good practice anyway, would help here as well
  462. # [18:22] <oedipus> ack MikeSmith
  463. # [18:22] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to respond to hsivonen
  464. # [18:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  465. # [18:23] <DanC> (public identifier when there's no corresponding public text? wft?)
  466. # [18:23] <oedipus> MS: touches on versioning
  467. # [18:23] <oedipus> CW: still have unresolved floating issue on versioning
  468. # [18:23] <DanC> "This specification represents a new version of HTML4" -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#relationship . hm.
  469. # [18:24] <hsivonen> q+ to say that sticking to the old HTML output mode is unintuitive unless you know XSLT very well
  470. # [18:24] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  471. # [18:24] <Julian> q+
  472. # [18:24] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Julian on the speaker queue
  473. # [18:24] <oedipus> MS: henri's point - don't want to encourage users to rely on current output HTML too much; conceeding on this will lead users to expect we do more; what we can do to deal with no way to make current XSLT engines to recognize new empty elements, can't fix from HTML side; will need to be better HTML output method than what exist now - what to do in meantime; there are people (me included) who want to generate HTML5 compliant output from XSLT without resort to
  474. # [18:25] <DanC> (there's not much urgency to this issue, is there? I'd rather read hsivonen's and julian's arguments in email. I suggest the chair quit arguing a position and get back to chairing ;-)
  475. # [18:25] <oedipus> MS: if can address most of user needs by adding optional public identifier to doctype, should discuss - are there any negative side-effects
  476. # [18:25] <hsivonen> q-
  477. # [18:25] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  478. # [18:25] <oedipus> MS: one thing talked about with ARIA is not meant to be permenant solution
  479. # [18:25] <hsivonen> (I'm OK to taking this to email)
  480. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  481. # [18:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  482. # [18:26] <DanC> (new empty elements... anybody got an example handy?)
  483. # [18:26] <oedipus> JR: one last thing: if argument is that HTML5 introduces new empty elements, and producers asusme new elements/unknown elements are empty, should we be adding empty elements to HTML5 - XSLT made that assumption, other producers may have problems as well
  484. # [18:26] <hsivonen> DanC,  <eventsource>, <source>
  485. # [18:27] <oedipus> MS: speaking personally, do not want to be constrained in developing ML by bad design decisions made in past
  486. # [18:27] <oedipus> DanC: move along?
  487. # [18:27] <Julian> ok, let's move to email
  488. # [18:27] <oedipus> MS: no resolution except continue email discussion
  489. # [18:27] * DanC thinks there's a time and a place for mike's opinion... but that discussion was getting longer than it deserved
  490. # [18:28] <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0171.html
  491. # [18:28] * DanC was making the point that when Mike gives his opinion, it prompts everybody else to give theirs
  492. # [18:28] <oedipus> MS: explanation of problem case?
  493. # [18:28] * DanC would like a new Topic:
  494. # [18:28] * Quits: gDashiva_ (magnusrk@195.18.164.170) (Ping timeout)
  495. # [18:28] <anne> hsivonen, DanC, + <command>
  496. # [18:29] <oedipus> DS: no defined behavior in HTML user agents, when element has focused and that element is removed from tree what happens? is an onBlur onFocus event? does it regain focus if comes back into tree? what if hidden via CSS and CSS selectors
  497. # [18:29] <oedipus> DS: email pointer to test case - add onBlur to onClick all HTML UAs treat differently
  498. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> q?
  499. # [18:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  500. # [18:30] <oedipus> DS: trying to resolve behavior in SVG and want to port to HTML5 - if element invisible via CSS or taken out of tree, should be removed and throw an unfocused event
  501. # [18:30] <oedipus> DS: want alignment between HTML5 and SVG
  502. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> anne: comments on the above from shepazu ?
  503. # [18:30] <hsivonen> I can only comment that I can't comment before seeing test cases run in 4 browsers
  504. # [18:30] <anne> hsivonen, DanC, + <embed> (not really new)
  505. # [18:30] * gsnedders who is DS?
  506. # [18:30] <oedipus> DS: other question - is this right forum
  507. # [18:30] <oedipus> DS = Doug Schepers
  508. # [18:30] * Joins: gDashiva (magnusrk@195.18.164.170)
  509. # [18:30] <oedipus> MS: can raise as issue if want
  510. # [18:30] * gsnedders ah.
  511. # [18:31] <oedipus> DS: yes
  512. # [18:31] * DanC doesn't understand it yet... hopes the issue is a lot more clear to mike than to me
  513. # [18:31] <oedipus> MS: please type in text for issue
  514. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
  515. # [18:31] * trackbot knows about the following 8 users: Chris, Shawn, Dan, Michael(tm), James, Steve, Joshue, Julian
  516. # [18:31] <oedipus> MS: i will create it
  517. # [18:31] <anne> MikeSmith, no, I'm not really sure I understand
  518. # [18:31] <shepazu> Focus change event when elements are removed from the rendering tree
  519. # [18:31] <Zakim> -robburns
  520. # [18:31] <anne> MikeSmith, user agents should probably be tested to get the answer
  521. # [18:31] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/258
  522. # [18:31] <oedipus> DanC: is this urgent? couldn't be handled better by reading and commenting
  523. # [18:31] * anne agrees with DanC
  524. # [18:31] <oedipus> DS: trying to resolve in timely manner - will send email to the list
  525. # [18:32] <hsivonen> anne, the question is: if the element with focus is a) removed from DOM or b) becomes display:none, should blur event fire? where should focus go?
  526. # [18:32] <oedipus> MS: best way to procede is testing according to anne and henri's IRC comments
  527. # [18:32] <Zakim> +??P3
  528. # [18:32] <Zakim> -shepazu
  529. # [18:32] <DanC> (ah... looks like hsivonen groks)
  530. # [18:32] <anne> hsivonen, focus goes to <body> or the Document object iirc in case nothing else is focused
  531. # [18:32] <robburns> Zakim, ??P3 is me
  532. # [18:32] <Zakim> +robburns; got it
  533. # [18:32] <anne> hsivonen, display:none shouldn't affect anything
  534. # [18:32] <oedipus> TOPIC: New Agenda Items or Agenda Tracking?
  535. # [18:32] <shepazu> note that HTML UAs all do something a little different
  536. # [18:33] <anne> hsivonen, I don't think blur fires on removal, but I'm not sure
  537. # [18:33] <oedipus> TOPIC: Issue Review
  538. # [18:33] <shepazu> anne: why shouldn't it?
  539. # [18:33] <oedipus> MS: overdue action item review
  540. # [18:33] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  541. # [18:33] <anne> shepazu, I'm not saying that
  542. # [18:33] <oedipus> MS: one overdue on me
  543. # [18:33] <DanC> action-34?
  544. # [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-34
  545. # [18:33] <trackbot> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-08-14 -- OPEN
  546. # [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  547. # [18:34] <oedipus> MS: lachy working on web dev guide - need status report - keep action open
  548. # [18:34] <anne> shepazu, most of that is simply based on existing impl as there's likely content depending on it
  549. # [18:34] <oedipus> MS: nothing new to say about action 54, though
  550. # [18:34] <oedipus> CW: thread with PFWG pretty active
  551. # [18:34] <DanC> action-54?
  552. # [18:34] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-54
  553. # [18:34] <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-08-20 -- OPEN
  554. # [18:34] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  555. # [18:34] <Laura> We are still waiting for a reply from the PFWG for Action Item 54 regarding our March and April requests:
  556. # [18:34] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0408.html
  557. # [18:34] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0234.html
  558. # [18:34] <oedipus> MS: can we close action?
  559. # [18:34] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0024.html
  560. # [18:34] <hsivonen> anne, shepazu said browsers aren't consistent here
  561. # [18:34] <Laura> Action 54's Second Draft is dependent on PF's response. Request for an Action Item 54 time extension until there is a response from the PFWG.
  562. # [18:34] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  563. # [18:34] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54's
  564. # [18:34] <oedipus> CW: want to keep and redeadline to next week; want date from PF as to when action will be "shipped"
  565. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> action-54?
  566. # [18:34] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-54
  567. # [18:34] <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-08-29 -- OPEN
  568. # [18:34] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  569. # [18:35] <Laura> I emailed Al for an update:
  570. # [18:35] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0024.html
  571. # [18:35] <oedipus> MS: moved week later
  572. # [18:35] <Laura> Action 54's Second Draft is dependent on PF's response. Request for an Action Item 54 time extension until there is a response from the PFWG.
  573. # [18:35] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  574. # [18:35] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54's
  575. # [18:35] <anne> hsivonen, ok
  576. # [18:35] <oedipus> DanC: pre-empts yesterday's plan
  577. # [18:35] <Laura> Karl's proposal:
  578. # [18:35] <Laura> "All img elements must have the alt content attribute set. The accessibility requirements on the possible values of the alt attributes are defined by WCAG 2.0 and not HTML 5."
  579. # [18:35] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0437.html
  580. # [18:35] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action54AltAttributeThirdDraft
  581. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> action-66?
  582. # [18:35] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-66
  583. # [18:35] <trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Chris Wilson to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-08-20 -- OPEN
  584. # [18:35] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
  585. # [18:35] <oedipus> MS: Chris, action 66?
  586. # [18:35] <oedipus> CW: related - combine these 2 into one
  587. # [18:36] <Laura> We have collated info on the Action 32. Deliverable is at:
  588. # [18:36] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE
  589. # [18:36] <oedipus> CW: believe feedback coming at same time
  590. # [18:36] <Laura> Advice From PFWG:
  591. # [18:36] <Laura> "1. @summary should stay. 2. It provides a needed service. 3. element content providing this info, *if linked by markup to the table* offers growth to even better practice. 4. Don't have the linking markup yet; is a developmental item. 5. evolution not revolution says: keep @summary at least until alternatives are deployed and stable."
  592. # [18:36] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0213.html
  593. # [18:36] <oedipus> DanC: diff issues
  594. # [18:36] <oedipus> Laura: different issues
  595. # [18:36] <Laura> Request that @summary be reinstated in the spec. It is needed.
  596. # [18:36] <Laura> Sample text from HTML 4:
  597. # [18:36] <Laura> "summary = text [CS]
  598. # [18:36] <Laura> This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and structure for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and Braille.…Make the table summary available to the user. Authors should provide a summary of a table's content and structure so that people using non-visual user agents may better understand it..." Source:
  599. # [18:36] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#adef-summary
  600. # [18:36] <oedipus> CW: actions on me are fine to combine
  601. # [18:36] <DanC> action-66?
  602. # [18:36] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-66
  603. # [18:36] <trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Joshue O Connor to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-08-29 -- OPEN
  604. # [18:36] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
  605. # [18:36] <Laura> @summary may seem irrelevant or redundant to those with good eyesight because they have access to content relationships at a glance. However, for users with visual impairments it is often vital for comprehension. It is often the difference between "seeing" or "not seeing" the table as a whole.
  606. # [18:36] <oedipus> DanC: josh now on tracker team
  607. # [18:36] <oedipus> MS: reassign 66 to josh
  608. # [18:36] <oedipus> DanC: done
  609. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> action-72?
  610. # [18:37] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-72
  611. # [18:37] <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- OPEN
  612. # [18:37] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  613. # [18:37] <oedipus> MS: action 72 - due next week/this week (tomorrow)
  614. # [18:37] <oedipus> DanC: 21st august today
  615. # [18:37] <Laura> Deliverable for Action 72:
  616. # [18:37] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  617. # [18:37] <oedipus> Laura: deliverable for that ready
  618. # [18:37] * Shunsuke is now known as Kuruma
  619. # [18:37] <Laura> Request that the definition of the headers attribute in the spec be extended to allow it to reference a td. This would make it possible for complex data tables to be marked up accessibly.
  620. # [18:37] <Laura> The headers/id markup is functional and works today. Results of some recent testing:
  621. # [18:37] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
  622. # [18:37] <Laura> It needs to be grandfathered into the spec.
  623. # [18:37] <Laura> This issue's history from May 2007 to present:
  624. # [18:37] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
  625. # [18:37] <oedipus> Laura: request that be changed
  626. # [18:37] <oedipus> DanC: has anyone notified public-html
  627. # [18:37] <oedipus> Laura: no, but can
  628. # [18:38] <Laura> The current wording for the headers attribute only allows the space separated token values to reference the id attribute of a header cell(th). It says:
  629. # [18:38] <Laura> "The headers attribute, if specified, must contain a string consisting of an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens, each of which must have the value of an ID of a th element..."
  630. # [18:38] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#headers
  631. # [18:38] <oedipus> DanC: action complete to my satisfaction
  632. # [18:38] <Laura> This is currently implemented in such a way that complex tables cannot be created using the headers attribute. It essentially makes the headers attribute that has been included on tds pointless. The headers attribute needs to be able to reference the id of a td.
  633. # [18:38] <oedipus> MS: going to close out then
  634. # [18:38] <oedipus> Laura: not closed - rewrote, but how to get into spec
  635. # [18:38] <robburns> Laura, good question
  636. # [18:38] <oedipus> DanC: action to draft
  637. # [18:38] <oedipus> Laura: need new action to get into text
  638. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> issue-57?
  639. # [18:38] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-57
  640. # [18:38] <trackbot> ISSUE-57 -- @headers -- OPEN
  641. # [18:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/57
  642. # [18:38] <oedipus> DanC: yes, but first needs discussion
  643. # [18:38] <oedipus> MS: close this one
  644. # [18:39] <robburns> that is how do issues resolved through the WG process effect the draft?
  645. # [18:39] <oedipus> Laura: need another action item to get into draft - survey?
  646. # [18:39] <oedipus> MS: chairs will have discussion and make decision on how to put question to group
  647. # [18:39] * DanC wonders why we don't discuss the headers issue now
  648. # [18:39] <oedipus> Laura: will you let us know that outcome - want not just to discuss but have movement on it
  649. # [18:39] <oedipus> Laura: already drafted
  650. # [18:40] <oedipus> MS: should open discussion about @headers
  651. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  652. # [18:40] <oedipus> MS: look at what josh has drafted
  653. # [18:40] <Laura> The headers/id markup is functional and works today. Results of some recent testing:
  654. # [18:40] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
  655. # [18:40] <Laura> It needs to be grandfathered into the spec.
  656. # [18:40] <oedipus> Laura: table until next week when josh can be here
  657. # [18:40] <oedipus> DanC: alright
  658. # [18:40] <oedipus> MS: laura could you summarize
  659. # [18:41] <oedipus> Laura: rather let josh to it next week
  660. # [18:41] <DanC> action-72?
  661. # [18:41] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-72
  662. # [18:41] <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- OPEN
  663. # [18:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  664. # [18:41] <oedipus> DanC: mark action pending review
  665. # [18:41] <oedipus> TOPIC: Raised Issues
  666. # [18:41] <oedipus> MS; nothing there
  667. # [18:41] <DanC> action-72?
  668. # [18:41] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-72
  669. # [18:41] <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  670. # [18:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  671. # [18:41] <oedipus> TOPIC: Pending Review Issues
  672. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> issue-20?
  673. # [18:41] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-20
  674. # [18:41] <trackbot> ISSUE-20 -- Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec -- RAISED
  675. # [18:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20
  676. # [18:41] <oedipus> MS: Issue-20 - been pending review for a while - what are we waiting on?
  677. # [18:42] <oedipus> DanC: isn't that connected to action 72?
  678. # [18:42] <hsivonen> It's not at all clear, though, that action 72 is the best solution to issue 20
  679. # [18:42] <oedipus> DanC: @headers and headers element issues?
  680. # [18:43] <oedipus> DanC: 57 duplicates 20 - 20 is table headers thing josh drafted on
  681. # [18:43] <oedipus> MS: please annotate issue 57 then
  682. # [18:43] <oedipus> MS: nothing in notes about closing out; hixie wrote in march "change to spec"
  683. # [18:43] <robburns> issue-20 deals with the standard table-headers algorithm without attributes, while issue-57 refers to defects in the current draft regarding the headers attribute
  684. # [18:44] <hsivonen> robburns, well if the attributeless algorithm can be amended to deal with the relevant cases, the attribute wouldn't be needed
  685. # [18:44] <oedipus> DanC: pending review means editor looked and thinks he has correct answer discussion done as far as he is concerned; now WG here to discuss if happy with editor's choice, josh wasn't satisfied, drafted new verbiage and now need to discuss what to do with it -
  686. # [18:44] <hsivonen> robburns, so action 72 pre-supposes the solution
  687. # [18:44] <DanC> robburns, by that explanation issue-57 is clearly not separate from issue-20; it's one design space
  688. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> issue-32?
  689. # [18:44] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-32
  690. # [18:44] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- Include a summary attribute for tables? -- RAISED
  691. # [18:44] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  692. # [18:44] <oedipus> MS: issue-32
  693. # [18:44] <DanC> we need to talk with Joshue about adding issues
  694. # [18:45] <oedipus> MS: include @summary for table
  695. # [18:45] <robburns> hsivoen, true but that's hope has nothing to do with whether issue-57 should be in the tracker
  696. # [18:45] <oedipus> MS: pretty well covered by action 66
  697. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> issue-55?
  698. # [18:45] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-55
  699. # [18:45] <trackbot> ISSUE-55 -- head/@profile missing, but used in other specifications/formats -- RAISED
  700. # [18:45] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
  701. # [18:45] <oedipus> MS: last issue 55 no @profile on HEAD
  702. # [18:45] <oedipus> MS: JR opened up - discussed on list, but bit detatched
  703. # [18:45] <oedipus> DanC: suggest you put the question on that one
  704. # [18:46] <oedipus> MS: concrete proposal and vote to leave in or out - henri, thoughts?
  705. # [18:46] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-55 head-profile
  706. # [18:46] <DanC> (I'm not happy with leaving it out, but I don't have any new information... I don't expect to convince anybody I haven't already convinced)
  707. # [18:47] <Julian> q+ to say it's a disambiguation mech
  708. # [18:47] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  709. # [18:47] <oedipus> HS: use cases for @profile would be better solved by looking at microformats work; having profile means consumer specifically programmed not to understand content unless fits profile; consumers better off if always try to understand the content
  710. # [18:47] <oedipus> MS: understanding content would mean doing some analysis of content of page - parsing the content of the page to determine through algorithm what class of content it is, right?
  711. # [18:48] <oedipus> HS: unlikely to ocurr likely - unambiguous
  712. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  713. # [18:48] <Zakim> Julian, you wanted to say it's a disambiguation mech
  714. # [18:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  715. # [18:48] * DanC wonders if julian is making a point he hasn't already made
  716. # [18:49] <oedipus> JR: one can argue that combination of class names not likely to occur without intents documented - for those who don't want to use, harmless, for those who want it, should have it - why removed?
  717. # [18:49] <DanC> (re zero cost to implementors and small cost to keep in the spec, I agree; I made that point in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0571.html )
  718. # [18:50] <oedipus> MS: hixie's position is as single attribute is harmless, but the design philosophy/principles or what hixie has said feature should not go into HTML5 without clear use cases for it in sufficient critical mass not to include
  719. # [18:50] <hsivonen> harmless stuff takes people's time if promoted
  720. # [18:50] <oedipus> MS: accumulation of "harmless" stuff that clutters the ML and makes unweildy - that is reasoning behind it
  721. # [18:50] <DanC> (darn; hixie's summary msg isn't cited from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55 )
  722. # [18:50] <oedipus> MS: another straw on the camel's back
  723. # [18:51] <oedipus> MS: continue discussion on list
  724. # [18:51] <oedipus> DanC: haven't heard any arguements today haven't heard before - put the question
  725. # [18:51] <oedipus> MS: yes means "keep current state of no @profile"
  726. # [18:52] <oedipus> DanC: cite hixie's summary - might have only gone to whatwg list
  727. # [18:52] <DanC> (this is a msg from hixie in the relevant thread... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0102.html )
  728. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Mike to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion
  729. # [18:52] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  730. # [18:52] * RRSAgent records action 2
  731. # [18:52] <trackbot> Created ACTION-75 - Raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-08-28].
  732. # [18:52] <oedipus> MS: end of agenda
  733. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> q?
  734. # [18:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  735. # [18:52] <oedipus> TOPIC: Other Business?
  736. # [18:53] <Julian> publication?
  737. # [18:53] <oedipus> MS: rather not talk about publication on call today - amount of time
  738. # [18:53] <oedipus> DanC: i'm not going anywhere
  739. # [18:53] <oedipus> DanC: ask in email
  740. # [18:53] <DanC> Topic: publication schedule
  741. # [18:54] <oedipus> MS: summary - have obligation to comply with heartbeat req
  742. # [18:54] * DanC is happy for mike to skip the boilerplate
  743. # [18:54] <oedipus> MS: obligation to keep public and w3c membership informed - should be publishing PWD at regular intervals
  744. # [18:54] <oedipus> MS: published last in June - every 3 months would be publishing in September, but i think we should be publishing now in august
  745. # [18:55] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0412.html "It's past mid-August, should we publish?"
  746. # [18:55] <oedipus> MS: hixie sent message asking about publication plans
  747. # [18:55] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0413.html October target for HTML5 WD with HTML forms integration
  748. # [18:56] <anne> (we might collide with some IE release again, but I guess that's ok)
  749. # [18:56] <oedipus> MS: issue that precludes agreement - need to resolve that before we can publish - need agreement from powers-that-be to ok publication under conditions, hasn't yet been negotiated
  750. # [18:56] <DanC> I think a Sep ETA is fine; it's <= 10 June 2008 + 3 months
  751. # [18:56] <oedipus> MS: issue within teams trying to resolve - not free to discuss today
  752. # [18:56] <oedipus> DanC: set new ETA for September
  753. # [18:56] <oedipus> MS: specific date?
  754. # [18:56] <anne> DanC, the idea was to measure from the FPWD
  755. # [18:57] <DanC> I'm not sure where that idea came from
  756. # [18:57] <oedipus> DanC: 10 September 2008 - six months after 10 june
  757. # [18:57] <DanC> s/six/three/
  758. # [18:57] <oedipus> MS: any comments about setting 10 september as goal?
  759. # [18:57] <gsnedders> DanC: MikeSmith, IIRC
  760. # [18:57] <oedipus> MS: sounds good to me
  761. # [18:58] <oedipus> MS: to reiterate, should try to publish as often as possible so public knows what we are doing;
  762. # [18:58] <oedipus> MS: other comments?
  763. # [18:58] <oedipus> TOPIC: Next Meeting
  764. # [18:58] <oedipus> MS: Chris can you chair next week?
  765. # [18:58] <oedipus> CW: yes
  766. # [18:58] <oedipus> MS: will have meeting next week; Chris will send out agenda
  767. # [18:58] <oedipus> MS: move to adjourn
  768. # [18:59] <oedipus> ADJOURNED
  769. # [18:59] <Julian> bye
  770. # [18:59] <Zakim> -hsivonen
  771. # [18:59] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  772. # [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  773. # [18:59] <Zakim> -Julian
  774. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  775. # [18:59] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  776. # [18:59] <Zakim> -Mike
  777. # [18:59] <Zakim> -robburns
  778. # [18:59] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  779. # [18:59] <Zakim> -Laura
  780. # [18:59] <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
  781. # [18:59] <Zakim> On the phone I see DanC, ChrisWilson
  782. # [18:59] <Zakim> On IRC I see gDashiva, ed, ChrisWilson, Laura, robburns, oedipus, Zakim, RRSAgent, aaronlev, smedero, shepazu, billmason, sryo, beowulf, Yudai, timeless, MikeSmith, heycam, Julian,
  783. # [18:59] <Zakim> ... tH, ROBOd, dbaron, tlr, anne, hober, gavin, xover, drry, Kuruma, gavin_, gsnedders, jmb, krijnh, jgraham, timelyx, DanC, matt, Dashiva, Philip, ed_work, inimino, deltab,
  784. # [18:59] <Zakim> ... takkaria, Hixie, hsivonen, trackbot, t
  785. # [18:59] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  786. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> oedipus: thanks extremely much for scribing
  787. # [18:59] <oedipus> no problem
  788. # [18:59] * oedipus shall i push minutes?
  789. # [18:59] <oedipus> zakim, please part
  790. # [18:59] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Mike, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, robburns, shepazu, +1.218.349.aabb, Laura, ChrisWilson, hsivonen
  791. # [18:59] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  792. # [19:00] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  793. # [19:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  794. # [19:00] * oedipus whose naked phone number is that?
  795. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> oedipus: yep, please push them out
  796. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> oedipus: I think218 is Laura
  797. # [19:00] <oedipus> MikeSmith: shall do
  798. # [19:02] <oedipus> present- +1.218.349.aabb
  799. # [19:02] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  800. # [19:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  801. # [19:03] <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
  802. # [19:03] <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-actions.rdf :
  803. # [19:03] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael(tm) to raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 [1]
  804. # [19:03] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-irc#T16-09-30
  805. # [19:03] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mike to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion [2]
  806. # [19:03] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-irc#T16-48-05
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  810. # [19:07] <hsivonen> I guess I should push out Validator.nu HTML Parser 1.1 and ship an sample app for using XSLT with HTML5 while I'm at it
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  823. # [19:45] <jgraham> http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/noscope.html
  824. # [19:46] <jgraham> Am I wrong to think that the cells under Property should all be <th>?
  825. # [19:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: it seems semantically like a header cell, yes
  826. # [19:52] <hsivonen> on a different note: Joel Spolsky argued (on his podcast) that HTML and CSS aren't really separated, because one's CSS has so many dependencies on the HTML files for things to work right
  827. # [19:52] <hsivonen> also, he pointed out that OO isn't about separation but about putting data and procedures *together*
  828. # [19:52] <hsivonen> both observations seem true
  829. # [19:53] <Philip> HTML files have lots of dependencies on one's CSS too, since you end up adding loads of divs and classes and rearranging things so you can style them how you want
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  842. # [22:59] <beowulf> is there anywhere a summary of why alt tags on images are so important?
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  846. # [23:02] <beowulf> s/tag/attribute
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  850. # [23:02] <beowulf> nevermind, wikipedia to the rescue
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The end :)