/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-09-08 / end

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  74. # [15:46] <Dannii> Hi everyone, how do I go about leaving the WG?
  75. # [15:49] <anne> Dannii, not sure, maybe contact DanC, who's the W3C Staff contact for the group
  76. # [15:51] <Dannii> Hi anne, ok thanks I will.
  77. # [15:53] <DanC> "Use the join/leave form." -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/
  78. # [15:53] <Dannii> Ahh thanks, just emailed you ;)
  79. # [15:58] <DanC> welcome
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  86. # [16:18] <myakura> have we decided when to publish new draft(s)?
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  89. # [16:23] <smedero> I believe, Sept 15th.
  90. # [16:23] <myakura> cool.
  91. # [16:23] <smedero> actually
  92. # [16:23] <smedero> wait
  93. # [16:23] <smedero> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20080901
  94. # [16:23] <smedero> after the week of sept. 15th
  95. # [16:23] <smedero> heh
  96. # [16:23] <smedero> so, somewhat less helpful
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  126. # [19:19] <Lachy> DanC, yt?
  127. # [19:21] <DanC> hi
  128. # [19:22] <Lachy> DanC, re your off list mail to me, I don't consider my tone in that case to have been inappropriate
  129. # [19:22] <Lachy> emphasising illogical, self defeating arguments that people put forth is sometimes necessary, just as in that case
  130. # [19:23] <DanC> well, it is. It's inappropraite to tell somebody else what they're saying.
  131. # [19:23] <Lachy> no, it's not. Just clarifying it for them
  132. # [19:23] <DanC> yes, it is. If you want to clarify, the polite/civil thing to do is to *ask* if XYZ is what they're saing
  133. # [19:24] <DanC> and even so, it's important not to be condescending etc. when replying
  134. # [19:24] <Lachy> I didn't need to ask in that case. It was entirely clear from his argument, since he clearly admitted that current assistive technologies get their UI wrong, and it's is logical to conclude that nothing will change at least until that is fixed
  135. # [19:26] <DanC> it's very well for you to you to come to that conclusion and say so, but it's not appropriate to put words in his mouth
  136. # [19:26] <Lachy> whatever
  137. # [19:26] <DanC> now you're being rude to me. I don't appreciate it.
  138. # [19:26] <Lachy> no, just disagreeing with you
  139. # [19:27] <DanC> "whatever" is dismissive and rude.
  140. # [19:29] <DanC> it's widely documented; 1st google hit for "whatever dismissive" is http://www.chacocanyon.com/pointlookout/070328.shtml "Dismissive gestures are often tactics for expressing status, consolidating control, or displaying power."
  141. # [19:30] <Lachy> fine. I was expressing how unconvincing your argument is
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  145. # [19:39] <DanC> Lachy, your message of Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:22:37 +0200 shows very welcome attention to the video/audio accessibility proposal... I wish you had been a little less strident in making your point about longdesc
  146. # [19:39] <DanC> the resulting heat is obscuring things
  147. # [19:40] <DanC> stuff like "It has been clearly demonstrated in past discussions ..." is much friendlier if it comes with a few pointers
  148. # [19:43] <DanC> you said something about "hixie's stats"; anybody have a pointer to those handy?
  149. # [19:44] <smedero> I know about this @longdesc data: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Longdesc_usage
  150. # [19:45] <smedero> don't believe that's Hixie's though. :-/
  151. # [19:45] <smedero> I believe he said it could be found somewhere in the depths of damowmow ...
  152. # [19:45] <Philip> http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery summarises some of Hixie's data
  153. # [19:47] <DanC> ah... thanks, Philip ; "a sample of 1 billion <img> elements" is more persuasive than "list of 100 URLs"
  154. # [19:48] <takkaria> yeah, but that 100 URL sample is pretty representative of the data at large
  155. # [19:48] <DanC> pilgrim says "just over one in a thousand" as if that's a bad thing. hmm. is that really lower than expected?
  156. # [19:48] <DanC> really, takkaria ? what leads you to that conclusion?
  157. # [19:48] <smedero> One of Lachlan's older emails points to a sample URL set: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0937.html
  158. # [19:49] <smedero> (being: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/292)
  159. # [19:49] <takkaria> well, the urls on the wiki research are the only urls in Philip's corpus of pages fetched from dmoz.org that have longdesc
  160. # [19:49] <Dashiva> DanC: It gets worse. One in a thousand is just the presence of the attribute.
  161. # [19:49] <DanC> yes, 1-in-1000 seems to be a minor point.
  162. # [19:49] <takkaria> a lot of those longdescs will be wikipedia misusing them, too
  163. # [19:49] <DanC> the main point is that 96% of them are bogus
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  165. # [19:51] <Philip> Counting the number of elements is always a little bit dangerous, since a single page could have a million images with bogus longdesc
  166. # [19:52] * Philip doesn't know what (if anything) Hixie did to avoid that kind of issue
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  170. # [19:53] * DanC was going to add a pointer to http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30 but sees it's already there.
  171. # [19:54] * DanC ... which makes it more or less fair game to presume readers know what "hixies stats" refers to
  172. # [20:01] <Lachy> so if only 4% of those 1 in 1000 are in any way correct, then that means 1 in 25,000 pages use it in a reasonable way
  173. # [20:01] <Lachy> if I did my maths correctly
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  176. # [20:02] <DanC> pretty clearly a case of insufficient feedback to authors leading to noise
  177. # [20:03] <Philip> Lachy: <img> elements, not pages
  178. # [20:03] <Lachy> ok
  179. # [20:03] <Philip> I saw 189 <img longdesc> on 62 pages, out of 146724 <img>s on 6429 pages
  180. # [20:04] * DanC reviews some arguments for longdesc in http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention ... finds an unfortunate level of, as pilgrim put it, "grandstanding"
  181. # [20:04] <Philip> (189/146724 = 0.13% so actually that's exactly the same as what the blog said Hixie got, which is weird)
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  183. # [20:05] <DanC> the law of large numbers in action?
  184. # [20:05] <Philip> (and so it occurs at least once on 1.0% of the pages that use images, or 0.8% of all pages)
  185. # [20:06] <Hixie> Lachy: 4% of those 1 in a 1000 use it in a way that cannot be trivially detected as being bogus, when you actually drill down into those you still find less than 1% of _those_ pages use it correctly
  186. # [20:06] <DanC> indexing arguments by person/name is kinda anti-wiki.
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  188. # [20:06] <Dashiva> 20% of pages don't use images?
  189. # [20:06] <DanC> (the TOC of http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention )
  190. # [20:06] <Philip> DanC: No, since we're sampling from very differently biased populations
  191. # [20:06] <Dashiva> That's higher than I expected
  192. # [20:06] <Hixie> Lachy: (i couldn't get statistcally significant data on how many used it correctly -- but it is less than 1% of 4% of 0.1%)
  193. # [20:06] <Philip> Dashiva: 16.9% (from dmoz.org)
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  195. # [20:07] <Hixie> Philip: i avoided counting imgs by doing everything on a per-page basis
  196. # [20:07] <Philip> Dashiva: (Note that e.g. 9.3% of the pages have <frameset>, so they're probably just frameset pages with no actual content)
  197. # [20:08] <Dashiva> So more like 7.6 / 90.7 of pages then
  198. # [20:08] <Philip> Hixie: Oh, okay - http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery says "a sample of 1 billion <img> elements"
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  200. # [20:09] <Lachy> Hixie, ok, so basically, the number of images that use it correctly is infinitesimal
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  202. # [20:10] <Hixie> Philip: should say 1 billion pages, i think
  203. # [20:10] <Hixie> Philip: (but that number is bogus anyway)
  204. # [20:10] <Hixie> Philip: (the actual number was bigger, i just didn't want mark to say how many it actually was)
  205. # [20:10] <Hixie> Lachy: yes
  206. # [20:11] <Philip> Lachy: 1% of 4% of 0.1% of the number of the pages on the web is still tens of thousands, which isn't really infinitesimal
  207. # [20:11] <Hixie> Lachy: i have in fact never found a page that uses it correctly in a really helpful way, and hve never found a page where it couldn't be done better in a simpler way (e.g. <a>, or <p>)
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  209. # [20:11] <Hixie> Philip: not 1%. Less than 1%. Could be zero.
  210. # [20:12] <Lachy> Philip, that's works out to be less than 0.0000004%
  211. # [20:13] * matt is now known as matt2BOS
  212. # [20:13] <Philip> Hixie: So it *could* be infinitesimal, but it's unjustified to say it *is*, without more data :-)
  213. # [20:13] <Lachy> actually, not quite. 0.01 x 0.04 x 0.001 = 0.0000004 = 0.00004%
  214. # [20:14] <Hixie> Philip: correct
  215. # [20:14] <Hixie> Philip: note that i found more pages using SVG in text/html than using longdesc="" correctly in text/html
  216. # [20:14] <Hixie> anyway gotta go
  217. # [20:14] <Hixie> bbiab
  218. # [20:14] <Lachy> Philip, infinitesimal means "Immeasurably or incalculably minute." and since the result is immeasurably minute, then it is
  219. # [20:15] <Philip> Lachy: It's not immeasurably minute - you can look at a few billion pages and measure it
  220. # [20:16] <Lachy> the effort required to do a non-automated study to get an accurate result makes it immeasurable
  221. # [20:17] <Philip> That just makes it impractically measurable :-)
  222. # [20:20] <Philip> If you wanted to know e.g. how high a mathematically perfect elastic ball bounces on the last bounce before it stops, that would be infinitesimal, regardless of the petty constraints of reality
  223. # [20:21] <Lachy> what is a mathematically perfect elastic ball?
  224. # [20:22] <Philip> It's one that doesn't exist except in simple mathematical models
  225. # [20:22] <Philip> Oh, actually, I'm being stupid, it can't be perfectly elastic
  226. # [20:22] <Lachy> I figured that much. But what makes it perfect?
  227. # [20:22] <Lachy> ok
  228. # [20:22] <Philip> but it can lose a constant fraction of its energy on each bounce, I think
  229. # [20:23] <Lachy> does perfectly elastic mean that it doesn't lose energy?
  230. # [20:23] <Philip> and it's perfect since it doesn't deform or lose any other energy, and there's no air resistance and it doesn't move sideways, etc
  231. # [20:23] <Philip> Lachy: Yes, if I remember the terminology correctly
  232. # [20:24] * smedero tries to follow along with this discussion on his abacus
  233. # [20:24] <Lachy> so it would need to have zero rotation, bouncing on a perfectly flat and smooth surface
  234. # [20:24] <Philip> I assume the surface would have to be immovable too
  235. # [20:24] <Lachy> in a perfect vaccuum
  236. # [20:24] <Philip> and gravity would have to be uniform
  237. # [20:25] <Philip> Also the model won't work if a small child grabs the ball and runs off with it
  238. # [20:26] <Lachy> ah, ok. So it's not an experiment that can be set up in a back yard then.
  239. # [20:26] <Philip> Depends on your back yard, but likely no
  240. # [20:26] <Lachy> not here, but my backyard in australia has a dog, and I assume that would have a similar affect to a small child
  241. # [20:26] <Philip> But it's (relatively) easy to work out mathematically :-)
  242. # [20:27] <Philip> and has approximately no relevance to real life, but that's never stopped a mathematician
  243. # [20:28] * Lachy goes to balance his perfect ball on the top of a perfect cone instead
  244. # [20:29] * Philip goes home
  245. # [20:30] <Philip> (Anyway, the point about the ball is it bounces an infinite number of times (in a finite amount of time) before it stops, and the height of each bounce decreases, so it ends up bouncing infinitesimally high, or something, but I'm probably just misunderstanding maths really)
  246. # [20:41] * Quits: chaals (chaals@76.197.37.150) (Quit: chaals)
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  249. # [21:18] <aaronlev> is there a way to watch a component in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/ ?
  250. # [21:18] <aaronlev> or watch a user?
  251. # [21:25] <gavin_> looks like there are no default QA contacts
  252. # [21:25] <hsivonen> ICR
  253. # [21:25] <hsivonen> doh
  254. # [21:25] <hsivonen> IIRC
  255. # [21:26] <hsivonen> the SVG component has a mailing list as a QA contact
  256. # [21:41] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  257. # [21:45] <aaronlev> hsivonen: great idea thanks
  258. # [21:46] <jgraham> Philip: I think the ball bounces for a time \sqrt{2h/g}(1+f^{1/2})/(1-f^{1/2}) where h is the initial height, f is the fraction of the energy lost per bounce and g is the gravitational acceleration, assuming I didn't screw up, which I probably did
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  263. # [22:11] * Parts: codedread (schiller@24.13.43.191) (Konversation terminated!)
  264. # [22:13] <Philip> jgraham: I'm happy to not try to disagree with that :-)
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  267. # [22:23] <jgraham> Philip: Actually should disagree because, even if it happens to otherwise be right, f must be the fraction of energy retained on each bounce (not the fraction lost).
  268. # [22:38] * beowulf understands the ball bouncing as much as he does the use of longdesc
  269. # [22:40] <anne> longdesc reminds me of this page from Philip TAYLOR
  270. # [22:41] <anne> where it has pointed to a 404 page for ages and now points to a document that has "untitled document" in the <title>
  271. # [22:41] <anne> that was so funny when I discovered that
  272. # [22:42] <anne> I forgot, it also duplicates all the information already in alt=
  273. # [22:42] <anne> hahaha
  274. # [22:42] <anne> http://royal-tunbridge-wells.org/
  275. # [22:47] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  276. # [22:48] <beowulf> the bouncing ball seems somewhat less of a challenge to me now
  277. # [22:54] <anne> I don't really like it when people try to set some kind of really high standard for some group of people they can't even meet themselves. Like requiring immigrants to be able to sing the national anthem...
  278. # [22:55] <anne> It's often the same with people claiming XML well-formedness will save the world
  279. # [22:55] <anne> They produce some crappy XHTML as text/html that will never meet the XML requirements
  280. # [22:56] <shepazu> or telling people that in order to discuss a subject in the HTML WG, they have to look back through all the previous conversations on the subject on the WHATWG lists ;P
  281. # [22:56] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  282. # [22:56] <anne> shepazu, well, that's a requirement I can meet
  283. # [22:57] <shepazu> true enough.. easy for people who were there from the beginning
  284. # [22:57] <anne> but I agree we shouldn't expect that from other people
  285. # [23:00] <anne> (for some perspective, requirements we put up for specs might be too high, but then we impose those on ourselves too)
  286. # [23:00] <shepazu> hmmm... I'm not sure that's fair, really
  287. # [23:01] <shepazu> for example, hixie recently posted a list of qualifications for being an editor of the HTML specs that really only he can fulfill
  288. # [23:01] <anne> editor requirements?
  289. # [23:01] <anne> yeah dunno
  290. # [23:02] <anne> he said someone volunteered after reading that, but for sure I didn't meet some of them :)
  291. # [23:02] <shepazu> the requirements for specs should themselves be subject to a group decision
  292. # [23:03] <shepazu> and even outside the WG, bringing in feedback from the community
  293. # [23:03] <anne> I think you're talking about something else
  294. # [23:03] <shepazu> possibly
  295. # [23:03] <shepazu> I mean use cases and requirements for the technology
  296. # [23:03] <anne> I didn't
  297. # [23:03] <shepazu> ah
  298. # [23:04] <shepazu> what did you mean?
  299. # [23:04] <anne> quality
  300. # [23:04] <anne> e.g., CSS 2 is still a WD
  301. # [23:04] <shepazu> oic
  302. # [23:05] <anne> is that "oh I see"?
  303. # [23:05] <shepazu> you mean, like exit criteria?
  304. # [23:05] <shepazu> yes, Oh, I see == oic
  305. # [23:05] * shepazu apologizes if that's a bit cute, I didn't make it up :)
  306. # [23:06] <anne> yes, the exit criteria
  307. # [23:06] * shepazu agrees the exit criteria for CSS may be a little unrealistic
  308. # [23:06] <anne> though maybe the way specs work should be given some more thought
  309. # [23:06] <anne> in light of e.g. XMLHttpRequest Level 2 and HTML 5 implementations and status of their respective specifications
  310. # [23:07] <anne> (or CSS 2 for that matter)
  311. # [23:17] <beowulf> longdesc is a little like the national anthem for immigrants, i like that analogy
  312. # [23:30] <Hixie> i don't think people should be expected to read all past discussion, that would be insane
  313. # [23:30] <Hixie> there's upwards of 30,000 e-mails on the two lists
  314. # [23:30] <Hixie> is there some page somewhere that says to do that?
  315. # [23:31] <Hixie> also, the list of requirements for editor weren't mean to be a list that only i could meet, what was the requirement that only i can meet?
  316. # [23:31] <Hixie> i do think the list is a pretty accurate list of what a good editor would have to be
  317. # [23:32] <Hixie> clearly hitting most but not all of the requirements is good too, and we should encourage people to "learn on the job"
  318. # [23:36] <Lachy> Hixie, I don't think there was any single requirement that couldn't be met by some people, just that it would be very difficult to meet them all
  319. # [23:36] <Lachy> even I don't meet them all yet, but I'm learning
  320. # [23:38] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.230.130.26) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208])
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  322. # Session Close: Tue Sep 09 00:00:01 2008

The end :)