/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-09-11 / end

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  90. # [12:08] * Topic is 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  91. # [12:08] * Set by DanC on Thu Jul 10 17:08:28
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  98. # [13:03] <marcos> Hi, I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. In the widget spec, we want to define and "auto update" mechanism for updating widget packages over the air....
  99. # [13:06] <marcos> the proposal looks like this <widget version="1.0 beta" id="htt://widgets.org/mywidget/"> <update uri="http://widgetupdates.com/mywidget/update.php?version=%version%"> </widget> Where, at runtime, %version% is replaced by the UA for the value of the version attribute.
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  101. # [13:07] <marcos> The question I have is, would it be better to to define%version% as an entity reference?
  102. # [13:07] <marcos> i.e., &version; ?
  103. # [13:07] <marcos> does it matter?
  104. # [13:10] <Philip> Where the entity reference is not defined in the widget XML file itself, and comes from the environment outside the parser instead?
  105. # [13:11] <marcos> yeah
  106. # [13:11] <Philip> If so, that sounds like it'd be a bit of a pain for anyone using normal XML tools to process or generate those files
  107. # [13:11] <marcos> yeah, true
  108. # [13:11] <marcos> that would suck
  109. # [13:12] <marcos> I'll stick with %version%
  110. # [13:12] <Philip> Rather than %-substitution, you could use (a subset of) URI templates instead
  111. # [13:12] <Philip> i.e. basically just use {version} instead
  112. # [13:12] <marcos> ok, that could work too
  113. # [13:12] <marcos> is there anything written about that?
  114. # [13:13] <Philip> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-uritemplate-02
  115. # [13:13] <Philip> Oh
  116. # [13:13] <Philip> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-uritemplate-03
  117. # [13:13] <marcos> great, I'll check those out.
  118. # [13:13] <Philip> That might be a silly idea, but at least the syntax seems less likely to conflict with the usual existence of % in URIs
  119. # [13:14] <hsivonen> marcos: entity references are trouble
  120. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> fwiw, I agree with hsivonen .. named entity references are one of the ugliest legacies inherited from SGML.. wish we could kill them off entirely
  121. # [13:18] <marcos> hsivonen, yeah. I see that now...
  122. # [13:18] <marcos> MikeSmith, understood.
  123. # [13:18] * Philip saw the Chromium security architecture paper today, which had an example of a vulnerability where LibXML would parse <!DOCTYPE doc [ <!ENTITY ent SYSTEM "/etc/passwd"> ]>
  124. # [13:19] <Philip> (but sandboxing saved the day)
  125. # [13:19] <Philip> (Uh, I think they might have meant to write file:// in that example)
  126. # [13:19] <jmb> Philip: have you a link to that?
  127. # [13:19] <Philip> jmb: http://crypto.stanford.edu/websec/chromium/
  128. # [13:20] <jmb> ta
  129. # [13:22] <Philip> (It seems they're ignoring the issue of the web security model (i.e. enforcing same-originality etc), and only trying to prevent web pages interfering with the user's own computer)
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  140. # [15:45] <hsivonen> what's the observing etiquette and schedule? is it poor form to request observer status on another WG on the same days the HTML WG meets (since that would mean either skipping some HTML stuff or not actually observing most of the time)?
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  145. # [16:33] <DanC> you're welcome to request observer status all over the place, hsivonen . TPAC scheduling is overconstrained, and creative compromises are expected
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  148. # [16:34] <DanC> it's quite common to request to observe several meetings at once
  149. # [16:39] <hsivonen> DanC: OK. thanks.
  150. # [16:43] <smedero> DanC: So I requested observer status through the survey form - but should I be following up with the chairs of the respective working groups directly?
  151. # [16:44] <DanC> the norm is that the ball is now in the chairs' court, smedero . You should follow up only if you think a special case is worth making
  152. # [16:44] <DanC> most chairs just send a bulk "sure, fine, come and observe" message to all requesters, I think
  153. # [16:44] <DanC> I suppose some don't get around to it at all
  154. # [16:44] <smedero> that's what I assumed... I just wanted to make sure I didn't drop the ball on that.
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  167. # [18:04] * oedipus shall i invoke zakim?
  168. # [18:05] * ChrisWilson changes topic to 'HTML WG telecon 11 Sept 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  169. # [18:05] * ChrisWilson yes please
  170. # [18:05] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  171. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> zakim, this is html
  172. # [18:05] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be html".
  173. # [18:05] <oedipus> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
  174. # [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, oedipus
  175. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, this will be html
  176. # [18:05] <Zakim> ok, ChrisWilson; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start now
  177. # [18:05] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  178. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> grr
  179. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.425.646.aaaa
  180. # [18:06] <smedero> Zakim, aaaa is me
  181. # [18:06] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  182. # [18:06] <oedipus> meeting: HTML WG Weekly Issue & Agenda Tracking Call
  183. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aabb
  184. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  185. # [18:06] <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  186. # [18:06] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  187. # [18:06] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  188. # [18:06] <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus
  189. # [18:06] * oedipus chris, are you chairing today?
  190. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aacc
  191. # [18:06] <hsivonen> Zakim, passcode?
  192. # [18:06] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), hsivonen
  193. # [18:07] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  194. # [18:07] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  195. # [18:07] * ChrisWilson yes I am
  196. # [18:07] <Zakim> +DanC
  197. # [18:07] <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aacc is me
  198. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  199. # [18:07] <DanC> regrets+ Mike_Smith
  200. # [18:07] <oedipus> chair: Chris_Wilson
  201. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.218.349.aadd
  202. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  203. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
  204. # [18:07] <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
  205. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P24
  206. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> agenda + review tracker
  207. # [18:07] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  208. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ tech plenary discussion
  209. # [18:07] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  210. # [18:07] <hsivonen> Zakim, ??P24 is me
  211. # [18:07] <Zakim> +hsivonen; got it
  212. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ discuss accessibility of audio/video
  213. # [18:08] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  214. # [18:08] * DanC checks some internal stuff re action-29 on doc license...
  215. # [18:08] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.183.190) (Connection reset by peer)
  216. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> in light of DSinger's only being here for the first 10 minutes or so, I'll suggest we start with a/v accessibility discussion
  217. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> anything to add to the agenda?
  218. # [18:10] <Laura> tp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/thread.html#msg697
  219. # [18:10] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/thread.html#msg15
  220. # [18:10] <Laura> I started a page in the Wiki for Multimedia Accessibilty <Audio> <Video>
  221. # [18:10] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty
  222. # [18:10] <DanC> copy of use cases: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Sep/0020.html
  223. # [18:10] * DanC Zakim, is dave here?
  224. # [18:10] * Zakim DanC, I do not see Dave anywhere
  225. # [18:10] <Laura> Considerations:
  226. # [18:10] <Laura> Multimedia presentations (rich media) usually involve both motion and the spoken word. This can present accessibility barriers to those who suffer either visual or audio impairments.
  227. # [18:10] <Laura> The visual components of a multimedia presentation can't be directly accessed by visual impaired users. Likewise, users who are deaf or hard of hearing will not be able to directly access auditory information.
  228. # [18:10] <Laura> Some users may simply not have the equipment, software or connection speed necessary to access multimedia files.
  229. # [18:10] <Laura> Multi-media = multi-modal/multi-sensory so there are many permutations where one or more "modes" may not be available, so we need to try and address each mode as a separate entity as well as the default "combined" or multi-media asset. Separation of these is key.
  230. # [18:11] <Laura> Recommendation:
  231. # [18:11] <Laura> HTML 5 needs to supply support pieces that can be referenced from within <video> and <audio>. Ideally all the support pieces should be direct descendants (children) of the parent <video> or <audio>, but unique and separate. In a perfect world all would be supplied, but even when less than perfect a method to provide one or more support pieces should exist.
  232. # [18:11] <Laura> Example: http://admissions.stanford.edu and look at the source code: there are params for the video, the caption, JW FLV also supports descriptive audio, and even little extras like the watermark. HTML 5 should have a similar approach in native support of any media asset
  233. # [18:11] <Laura> Captions, transcripts, text descriptions, and audio descriptions are different from one another.
  234. # [18:11] <Laura> A clean, semantic, explicit association to transcripts, text descriptions, captions, audio descriptions and/or streams that could be toggled on or off by the end user would be very beneficial. These items will get lost if they are outside the parent element. We need a way for authors to link items together, within the element.
  235. # [18:11] <Laura> The embedded model ensures that the linkage is there, and if the author chooses to also provide an in-the-clear linkage to one or more of these support pieces than this is a win.
  236. # [18:11] <Laura> Some kind of mechanism is needed...attributes on <video> could do it. Likewise for attributes on <audio>.
  237. # [18:11] * DanC encourages Laura to keep the IRC and the audio more in sync
  238. # [18:11] * DanC notes to Laura that Dave Singer can't see the IRC log
  239. # [18:12] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
  240. # [18:12] <Zakim> On the phone I see smedero, +1.408.398.aabb, ChrisWilson, Julian, DanC, +1.218.349.aadd, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen
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  243. # [18:12] <oedipus> DanC: had trouble following thread - longdesc diversion; use cases help me a lot
  244. # [18:13] <oedipus> JG: tried to get conversation on higher level - not how to do, but ability to express captions
  245. # [18:13] <oedipus> JG: will look at use cases, as well
  246. # [18:13] <oedipus> JG: Lachlan's point about user being part of rendering surface -- sometimes yes, sometimes no~~~~~~; ~~~~ssed as
  247. # [18:14] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  248. # [18:14] <oedipus> JG: media queries: adaptability of content; competing approaches expressed on list
  249. # [18:14] <oedipus> zakim, Microsoft is Cynthia_Shelly
  250. # [18:14] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
  251. # [18:14] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  252. # [18:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  253. # [18:15] <oedipus> CW: need to do further reading on topic before discussing on call (audio & video thread)
  254. # [18:15] <oedipus> CW: tons of posts on topic
  255. # [18:15] <oedipus> CS: trying to discharge action items for PF
  256. # [18:15] * DanC wonders if hsivonen is content with email discussion of accessibility of media stuff
  257. # [18:15] <Zakim> - +1.408.398.aabb
  258. # [18:16] <ChrisWilson> any further discussion on this, or shall we move on?
  259. # [18:16] <oedipus> HS: prefer discussion more focused - went off topic with longdesc and such
  260. # [18:16] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
  261. # [18:16] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
  262. # [18:16] <Zakim> 1. review tracker [from ChrisWilson]
  263. # [18:16] <Zakim> 2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
  264. # [18:16] <oedipus> GJR: perhaps some wiki work is needed
  265. # [18:16] <Zakim> 3. discuss accessibility of audio/video [from ChrisWilson]
  266. # [18:16] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  267. # [18:16] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 3
  268. # [18:16] <Zakim> agendum 3, discuss accessibility of audio/video, closed
  269. # [18:16] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  270. # [18:16] <Zakim> 1. review tracker [from ChrisWilson]
  271. # [18:16] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  272. # [18:16] <oedipus> HS: media query proposal good idea, but syntax needs work -- idea of querying user's indicated capabilities
  273. # [18:16] <Laura> notes to Dan that I am having trouble hearing. Some static on my end of the call.
  274. # [18:17] <oedipus> CW: interesting idea - privacy implications?
  275. # [18:17] <Lachy> I'm here now, IRC only
  276. # [18:17] <oedipus> HS: privacy problem in any case if person doesn't want to reveal disability to access video stream with certain properties
  277. # [18:17] * Lachy is catching up on IRC logs...
  278. # [18:17] * matt is now known as mattLunch
  279. # [18:17] <oedipus> q+ to ask role of CC/PP
  280. # [18:17] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  281. # [18:17] <oedipus> ack me
  282. # [18:17] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask role of CC/PP
  283. # [18:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  284. # [18:17] <ChrisWilson> ack oedipus
  285. # [18:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  286. # [18:18] <oedipus> GJR: i am working on a CC/PP profile for assistive technologies
  287. # [18:18] <oedipus> GJR: one possible approach to ensuring that content negotiation done correctly
  288. # [18:19] * Quits: tH (Rob@77.86.6.71) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  289. # [18:19] <oedipus> GJR: will set up ESW wiki page for issue
  290. # [18:19] * ChrisWilson lachy, any comments you wanted to add to the accessibility in a/v discussion? Otherwise we'll move on.
  291. # [18:19] <Zakim> +??P5
  292. # [18:19] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P5
  293. # [18:19] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  294. # [18:20] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, no, I think i've said all I need to say on the mailing list
  295. # [18:20] <hsivonen> clarification on the privacy point: a user who selects a media stream meant for people with a given disability end up revealing that (s)he may have that disability
  296. # [18:21] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  297. # [18:21] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  298. # [18:21] <oedipus> CS: privacy issues about AT concerns?
  299. # [18:21] <ChrisWilson> @Lachy ok thanks.
  300. # [18:21] <Laura> Zakim, I am ??P5
  301. # [18:21] <Zakim> sorry, Laura, I do not see a party named '??P5'
  302. # [18:21] <hsivonen> but with MQ being able to query stuff all the time, the disability may be revealed without the user noticing that a selection mechanism ran
  303. # [18:21] <Laura> Zakim, I am aadd
  304. # [18:21] <Zakim> +Laura; got it
  305. # [18:21] <oedipus> GJR: whatever is going to raise privacy concerns -- interested CC/PP as well as XQuery
  306. # [18:21] <oedipus> s/interested/interested in
  307. # [18:21] <oedipus> CS: use of CSS
  308. # [18:21] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  309. # [18:22] <hsivonen> q+ to ask about CC/PP & XQuery
  310. # [18:22] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  311. # [18:22] <ChrisWilson> ack hsivonen
  312. # [18:22] <Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to ask about CC/PP & XQuery
  313. # [18:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  314. # [18:22] <oedipus> GJR: gathering participants to revive CSS-Reader
  315. # [18:23] <DanC> (hmm... "need" is a strong word)
  316. # [18:23] <oedipus> HS: CSS media selectors sufficient?
  317. # [18:24] <DanC> "exposing an accessible _what_"?
  318. # [18:24] <hsivonen> DanC, tree
  319. # [18:24] <DanC> thanks
  320. # [18:24] <DanC> HS: isn't the trend away from the AT accessing the DOM directly to the UA exposing an accessible tree?
  321. # [18:25] <Laura> regrets+ SteveF
  322. # [18:25] <Laura> regrets+ Joshue
  323. # [18:25] <DanC> GR: ATs need to support XML vocabularies/applications
  324. # [18:25] <DanC> HS: seems sufficient to convert to HTML server-side
  325. # [18:26] <oedipus> GJR: HS' idea is a non-starter -- if people need to use an xml-derived language, they should be able to do so without having forced on them as text/html which is lest robust
  326. # [18:26] <oedipus> s/lest/less
  327. # [18:26] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.194) (Quit: mjs)
  328. # [18:26] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  329. # [18:26] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  330. # [18:26] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  331. # [18:27] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.244.16.54)
  332. # [18:27] <oedipus> HS: underlying assumption of HTML5 work is HTML5 is common ground - arbitrary XML vocab mapped to semantics AT understands introducing new layer of interaction - new middleware between AT and markup - why not make that ground HTML
  333. # [18:28] * Joins: aroben_ (adamroben@17.203.15.235)
  334. # [18:28] <oedipus> GJR: HTML5 does not exist as a specification - one class of readers to disclaimers might change are AT vendors -- they are going to wait until there is sufficient market penetration
  335. # [18:28] <DanC> (the "just use HTML as the AT solution for specialized vocabularies" sounds familiar... that was the outcome in the HTML 2 timeframe for SGML accessiblity.)
  336. # [18:28] <oedipus> GJR: one reason why at vendors putting eggs in ARIA basket
  337. # [18:28] <hsivonen> ARIA is in flux as well
  338. # [18:29] <oedipus> CW: adding features to HTML5 via ARIA aren't distant future-sollutions, but will be added over time
  339. # [18:29] <oedipus> GJR: incremental adaptation without standards and coordination will not happen from AT side
  340. # [18:29] * Joins: tH (Rob@77.86.6.71)
  341. # [18:30] <oedipus> CW: why for features added to HTML5 but not ARIA features added to current HTML implementations
  342. # [18:30] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.244.16.54) (Ping timeout)
  343. # [18:30] <hsivonen> XQuery for AT capabilities doesn't exist as a REC today, either, right?
  344. # [18:30] <oedipus> CW: agree that need standards and coordination here - have to have that on AT side, as well -- not sure why precludes one sollution or another
  345. # [18:31] <oedipus> GJR: i don't think it precludes one solution or another, but i don't think we should proscribe one solution over another
  346. # [18:32] <oedipus> DS: point of ARIA not to supersede native semantics of ML language; ATs will adapt to HTML5 and ARIA, but ARIA goes beyond the scope of HTML WG
  347. # [18:32] <oedipus> CS: browser devs will do same things doing now - mapping HTML semantics to appropriate accessibility API so ARIA can be used anywhere
  348. # [18:33] <oedipus> DS: not certain why conflict at all between HTML5 and ARIA?
  349. # [18:33] <oedipus> CS: synchronization
  350. # [18:34] <oedipus> DS: widgets will only be deployed on IE8x - not on IE5 or IE6 which are not going away soon -- sites will continue to use javascript libraries to backport content; rather than get IE6 out of the hands of users, we don't care what version of browser or what browser you are using, but here is our syntax; with script libraries, AT will understand things at level that HTML5 browser does
  351. # [18:34] <oedipus> CS: if supports ARIA
  352. # [18:35] <oedipus> CS: some vendors will do for older browsers
  353. # [18:35] <hsivonen> q+
  354. # [18:35] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  355. # [18:35] <oedipus> DS: only if AT supports it -- values and attributes into the DOM what UA should do
  356. # [18:35] <oedipus> CS: also important for UA to map to OS
  357. # [18:35] * DanC notes to Doug that we're talking about whether media queries suffice for video accessibility, or whether we need something like Xquery that is designed for XML in general
  358. # [18:35] <oedipus> DS: if UA can do that, we are ok
  359. # [18:35] <oedipus> GJR: point simply was that ARIA for more than HTML5
  360. # [18:36] <oedipus> GJR: therefore needs to be janus-like
  361. # [18:36] <oedipus> ack h
  362. # [18:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  363. # [18:36] <DanC> ack next
  364. # [18:36] * Zakim sees no one at the head of the speaker queue
  365. # [18:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  366. # [18:36] <ChrisWilson> q?
  367. # [18:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  368. # [18:36] <Lachy> xquery is overkill, something like media queries would be syntactically better, but media queries itself is not suitable
  369. # [18:36] <oedipus> HS: in end, need to have something AT understands -- AT understands stuff in DOM or uses API that AT understands
  370. # [18:37] <oedipus> HS: arbitrary XML vocabularies are not accessible - mapping to ARIA or HTML5 if UA knows about ARIA or HTML5
  371. # [18:37] <DanC> (hmm... since the HTML 2 timeframe, I wonder what ebooks do... do they use HTML vocabulary for accessibility, I wonder?)
  372. # [18:37] <oedipus> GJR: the solution is going to be middle-ware --
  373. # [18:37] <oedipus> CW: mapping components from known to more simplistic
  374. # [18:38] <oedipus> DS: HTML is going to be more sparse language than GUI frameworks natively supported on desktops;
  375. # [18:38] <oedipus> DS: ARIA goes beyond what HTML5 does or plans to do -- why map to something that is known to be less rich when have option to map to something more rich just for the sake of a vocabulary (in this case HTML5)
  376. # [18:39] <oedipus> HS: HTML5 and ARIA being implemented so UA understands DOM and communicates to AT; just pointing out that arbitrary XML vocabularies
  377. # [18:39] <DanC> (the first ebook standard I find uses XHTML + namespaces. <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:ops=" http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops"> http://www.openebook.org/2007/ops/OPS_2.0_final_spec.html )
  378. # [18:39] <oedipus> GJR: available now is ARIA; what is being developed are expert handlers that build upon the ARIA model to provide meaningful read/write access to XML dialects in specialized knowledge domain
  379. # [18:41] <oedipus> DS: CWilson right -- drifting away; don't need to introduce arbitrary XML into conversation; use of script, plus CSS plus markup to make
  380. # [18:41] <oedipus> widgets
  381. # [18:41] <oedipus> GJR: ARIA not for HTML5 per se, broader
  382. # [18:41] <oedipus> DS: violent agreement
  383. # [18:41] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
  384. # [18:41] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
  385. # [18:41] <Zakim> 1. review tracker [from ChrisWilson]
  386. # [18:41] <Zakim> 2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
  387. # [18:41] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 1
  388. # [18:41] <Zakim> agendum 1. "review tracker" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  389. # [18:42] <ChrisWilson> overdue action items
  390. # [18:42] <oedipus> TOPIC: Tracker Review, part 1 (Overdue Action Items)
  391. # [18:42] <ChrisWilson> action-34?
  392. # [18:42] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-34
  393. # [18:42] <trackbot> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-09-04 -- OPEN
  394. # [18:42] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  395. # [18:42] <Lachy> q+
  396. # [18:42] * Zakim sees Lachy on the speaker queue
  397. # [18:42] <oedipus> CW: action 34 - pretty old action on lachy
  398. # [18:42] <ChrisWilson> ack Lachy
  399. # [18:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  400. # [18:42] * oedipus cannot hear lachy
  401. # [18:42] * oedipus very muffled
  402. # [18:42] * DanC can't hear well... is listening for a suggested date when we should check again
  403. # [18:42] <oedipus> LH: have to put off again; been extremely busy
  404. # [18:43] <oedipus> DC: approximate date?
  405. # [18:43] <oedipus> LH: no set date just yet
  406. # [18:43] <oedipus> CW: postpone discussion for TPAC?
  407. # [18:43] <oedipus> LH: would be better
  408. # [18:44] <oedipus> ACTION: ChrisW - put "web developer's guide to html5" publication on agenda for TPAC face2face meetings
  409. # [18:44] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  410. # [18:44] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ChrisW
  411. # [18:44] * RRSAgent records action 1
  412. # [18:44] <ChrisWilson> reset due date, will discuss moving forward at TPAC
  413. # [18:44] <DanC> don't make a new action, pls
  414. # [18:44] <oedipus> CW: 21 october due date - face2face is 23rd and 24th
  415. # [18:44] <ChrisWilson> action-66?
  416. # [18:44] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-66
  417. # [18:44] <trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Joshue O Connor to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-08-29 -- OPEN
  418. # [18:44] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
  419. # [18:45] <ChrisWilson> action-74?
  420. # [18:45] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-74
  421. # [18:45] <trackbot> ACTION-74 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 -- due 2008-08-28 -- OPEN
  422. # [18:45] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/74
  423. # [18:45] <oedipus> rrsagent, drop action 1
  424. # [18:45] <RRSAgent> removing action 1, ChrisW - put "web developer's guide to html5" publication on agenda for TPAC face2face meetings
  425. # [18:45] <DanC> yes
  426. # [18:45] * Joins: cynthia (836b0067@128.30.52.43)
  427. # [18:45] <DanC> (RRSAgent's action list is less relevant than trackers)
  428. # [18:45] <oedipus> CW: status list from last week?
  429. # [18:45] <oedipus> DC: raised for discussion
  430. # [18:46] <smedero> issue-54 has been discussed over the last week
  431. # [18:46] <oedipus> CW: can close it
  432. # [18:46] <DanC> close action-74
  433. # [18:46] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-74.
  434. # [18:46] <trackbot> ACTION-74 Raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 closed
  435. # [18:46] <Julian> pointer?
  436. # [18:46] <ChrisWilson> action-75?
  437. # [18:46] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-75
  438. # [18:46] <trackbot> ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2008-08-28 -- OPEN
  439. # [18:46] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
  440. # [18:46] * oedipus on a different machine, can't put in pointers
  441. # [18:46] <ChrisWilson> julian, were you asking for ptr to email to group on XSLT issue?
  442. # [18:46] <Julian> yes
  443. # [18:47] <oedipus> CW: action 75 - not done by MikeSmith - want to do a poll on that -- leave open for now
  444. # [18:47] <Laura> What is the next step for @headers Action 72?
  445. # [18:47] <ChrisWilson> Will look in a minute.
  446. # [18:47] <DanC> re action-74, there are lots of msgs, e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0137.html
  447. # [18:47] <smedero> julian, I groked that from the tracker agenda but you can view the issue itself to see there has been discussion: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
  448. # [18:47] <Julian> likely http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0137.html
  449. # [18:47] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ discuss action-72
  450. # [18:47] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  451. # [18:47] <oedipus> CW: action 74 - XSLT output=html
  452. # [18:47] * Joins: myakura (myakura@114.145.91.188)
  453. # [18:48] <ChrisWilson> action-29?
  454. # [18:48] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-29
  455. # [18:48] <trackbot> ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2008-09-11 -- OPEN
  456. # [18:48] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
  457. # [18:48] <oedipus> CW: action 75 still open; action 29 status
  458. # [18:48] <oedipus> CW: Dan?
  459. # [18:48] <oedipus> DanC: some promising internal discussion, but don't know specifics yet - hoping to report today
  460. # [18:48] <oedipus> GJR: discussed at HTC?
  461. # [18:48] <oedipus> DanC: don't expect so
  462. # [18:48] <DanC> (life is getting a little too meta when there's a question about what's the next step on an action; an action is supposed to _be_ a next step)
  463. # [18:49] <oedipus> CW: move to?
  464. # [18:49] <oedipus> DanC: give same due date as lachy
  465. # [18:49] <oedipus> CW: done
  466. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item
  467. # [18:49] <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', ChrisWilson
  468. # [18:49] <oedipus> CW: covers all of the overdue issues, i believe
  469. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> agenda?
  470. # [18:49] * Zakim sees 3 items remaining on the agenda:
  471. # [18:49] * Zakim 1. review tracker [from ChrisWilson]
  472. # [18:49] * Zakim 2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
  473. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 1
  474. # [18:49] * Zakim 4. discuss action-72 [from ChrisWilson]
  475. # [18:49] <Zakim> agendum 1, review tracker, closed
  476. # [18:49] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  477. # [18:49] <Zakim> 2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
  478. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 2
  479. # [18:49] <Zakim> agendum 2. "tech plenary discussion" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  480. # [18:49] <Zakim> -Lachy
  481. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 3
  482. # [18:49] <Zakim> agendum 3. "discuss accessibility of audio/video" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  483. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 3
  484. # [18:50] <Zakim> agendum 3, discuss accessibility of audio/video, closed
  485. # [18:50] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  486. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> agenda?
  487. # [18:50] <Zakim> 2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
  488. # [18:50] * Zakim sees 2 items remaining on the agenda:
  489. # [18:50] * Zakim 2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
  490. # [18:50] * Zakim 4. discuss action-72 [from ChrisWilson]
  491. # [18:50] <Zakim> +??P1
  492. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 4
  493. # [18:50] <Zakim> agendum 4. "discuss action-72" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  494. # [18:50] <DanC> (ah... re my licensing action, there's an internal thingy due 2008-10-08 ; so I'll set my due date near that...)
  495. # [18:50] <oedipus> CW: Laura asked about action 72
  496. # [18:50] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P1
  497. # [18:50] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  498. # [18:50] <oedipus> CW: Lachy, set deadline for TPAC for web dev doc
  499. # [18:51] <Laura> Approx a thousand headers messages to date on list on action 72:
  500. # [18:51] <Laura> http://w3.markmail.org/search/?q=headers+list%3Aorg.w3.public-html+date%3A20070501-20080912
  501. # [18:51] <Laura> @headers has been an issue since May 1, 2007 with about 39 threads.
  502. # [18:51] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-bac4baeb0cd0ea09b7f76ff9c409740257566408
  503. # [18:51] <Laura> Latest @headers discussion thread, September 2008:
  504. # [18:51] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/thread.html#msg114
  505. # [18:51] <oedipus> CW: next steps on action 72 - action on CW about headers and header functionality; still need to shift through all info; either declare consensus or post a poll; collect issues into 1 email to send to list -- hope to get to it very soon
  506. # [18:51] <ChrisWilson> @Laura - yes, I need to collate and distill, then ask a question to the group. Still assigned to me.
  507. # [18:51] <Laura> Thank you.
  508. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 4
  509. # [18:52] <Zakim> agendum 4, discuss action-72, closed
  510. # [18:52] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  511. # [18:52] <Zakim> 2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
  512. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up next item
  513. # [18:52] <Zakim> agendum 2. "tech plenary discussion" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  514. # [18:52] <oedipus> TOPIC: TPAC 2008
  515. # [18:52] <smedero> TPAC agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0303.html
  516. # [18:52] <oedipus> CW: MikeS sent out email on TPAC agenda - only 1 response received so far
  517. # [18:52] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.194)
  518. # [18:53] <oedipus> CW: my take on TPAC similar to MikeSmith's -- first steps are looking through spec and ascertaining where spec is stable enough to generate test cases and creating test suite
  519. # [18:53] <oedipus> CW: figuring out where we are in terms of stability more interesting in short term
  520. # [18:53] <oedipus> CW: any suggestions for additions to TPAC meetings, plese send to list
  521. # [18:54] <oedipus> LH: too much time on tutorial slotted (3 hours)
  522. # [18:54] <oedipus> CW: going to end up spending a lot more of our time figuring out what portions of tech are ready for test cases; easier for us to expand into test case writing area than contract schedule - take what time is needed
  523. # [18:54] <oedipus> LH: ok
  524. # [18:54] <hsivonen> q+
  525. # [18:54] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  526. # [18:54] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 2
  527. # [18:55] <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ChrisWilson
  528. # [18:55] * DanC wonders if Lachy has other things in particular in mind
  529. # [18:55] <ChrisWilson> ack hsivonen
  530. # [18:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  531. # [18:55] <oedipus> HS: face2face time better for discussion than writing tests
  532. # [18:55] <oedipus> CW: absolutely
  533. # [18:56] <oedipus> CW: comment to MikeS was time spent at last TPAC doing tutorial on how to build test cases useful - can see us spending that time, but this time with follow up -- identifying where we can write test cases - what is solid and what is not
  534. # [18:56] <oedipus> CW: don't want to spend a lot of time with everyone coding - not point of TPAC meeting
  535. # [18:56] <Lachy> DanC, I don't have any ideas yet, but I'll think about it and mail the list
  536. # [18:56] <oedipus> CW: value in using test suite for getting handle on how stable spec is, which is what i really want to get out of f2f
  537. # [18:56] <DanC> (I wish I'd made more progress on tests to date... sometimes I wonder where all the time went.)
  538. # [18:57] <oedipus> TOPIC: Additional Items
  539. # [18:57] <ChrisWilson> any other items for discussion today?
  540. # [18:57] <oedipus> CW: additional items for discussion?
  541. # [18:57] <oedipus> DanC: next week (18 september)
  542. # [18:57] <ChrisWilson> move to adjourn?
  543. # [18:57] <Julian> publication of spec?
  544. # [18:58] <oedipus> CW: at Web 2.0 conference in New York - scheduled to be doing something at this time slot - have to check MikeS' availability
  545. # [18:58] <oedipus> CW: have to move tuesday call too
  546. # [18:58] <DanC> I'm out-of-office 25 Sep and 2 Oct
  547. # [18:58] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  548. # [18:58] <Zakim> -Lachy
  549. # [18:58] <oedipus> DanC: not available 25 september and 2 october
  550. # [18:58] <ChrisWilson> adjourned
  551. # [18:58] <Zakim> -smedero
  552. # [18:58] <Zakim> -hsivonen
  553. # [18:58] <Zakim> -Laura
  554. # [18:58] <Zakim> -Julian
  555. # [18:58] <ChrisWilson> Thanks again to oedipus for scribing
  556. # [18:58] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  557. # [18:58] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  558. # [18:58] <oedipus> zakim, please part
  559. # [18:58] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.646.aaaa, smedero, +1.408.398.aabb, ChrisWilson, DanC, Julian, +1.218.349.aadd, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen, Cynthia_Shelly,
  560. # [18:58] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  561. # [18:58] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  562. # [18:58] <Zakim> ... Lachy, Laura, Shepazu
  563. # [18:58] * oedipus my pleasure
  564. # [18:59] * oedipus sorry today was sloppier than usual...
  565. # [18:59] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  566. # [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  567. # [18:59] <oedipus> present- aaaa
  568. # [18:59] <oedipus> present+ Lachlan_Hunt
  569. # [19:00] <oedipus> present- aabb
  570. # [19:00] <oedipus> present+ Laura_Carlson
  571. # [19:00] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  572. # [19:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  573. # [19:01] <oedipus> present- +1.408.398.aabb
  574. # [19:01] <oedipus> present- +1.425.646.aaaa
  575. # [19:01] * Quits: myakura (myakura@114.145.91.188) (Quit: Leaving...)
  576. # [19:01] <oedipus> present- +1.218.349.aadd
  577. # [19:01] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  578. # [19:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  579. # [19:02] <oedipus> present+ Doug_Schepers
  580. # [19:02] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  581. # [19:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
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  584. # [19:05] <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
  585. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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  595. # [19:29] <oedipus> I am currently away. Reason: "" E-mail: not specified Left At: Wednesday 10 September 2008 - 11:56 AM (tIRC away system)
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  597. # [19:46] <oedipus> I am currently away. Reason: "" E-mail: not specified Left At: Wednesday 10 September 2008 - 11:56 AM (tIRC away system)
  598. # [19:53] <oedipus> I am back from: because i'm not here...: Left At: Wednesday 10 September 2008 - 11:56 AM which was 1day 1hr 52mins ago (tIRC Away System)
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  644. # Session Close: Fri Sep 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)