/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-09-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 24 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  7. # [00:54] <shepazu> surely Opera, Mozilla, Apple, and Google are financially supporting WHATWG, since they pay the salaries of most of the members
  8. # [00:55] <Philip> Assuming "members" means "the many hundreds of mailing list subscribers" (since I'm not sure how else it would be precisely defined), I expect those companies are supporting a small minority of members
  9. # [00:56] <gavin> "WHATWG members" is referred to in the FAQ as the people who form the oversight comittee
  10. # [00:57] <gavin> and in the charter, I guess
  11. # [00:58] <Philip> The oversight committee has never done anything, as far as I'm aware, so that seems like an insignificant expense
  12. # [00:59] <gavin> heh
  13. # [00:59] <gavin> its members have made important contributions
  14. # [00:59] <gavin> (not necessarily because they are members)
  15. # [01:04] <takkaria> the student loans company pays my salary
  16. # [01:05] <Philip> It's not really a salary if you have to pay it back (plus interest) later :-)
  17. # [01:10] <Dashiva> Oh snap: http://www.alistapart.com/comments/webstandards2008?page=2#14
  18. # [01:10] <pimpbot> Title: A List Apart: Comments: Web Standards 2008: Three Circles of Hell (at www.alistapart.com)
  19. # [01:11] <shepazu> Philip: yeah, I'm just using their terms (which seems legitimate): http://www.whatwg.org/charter#member
  20. # [01:11] <pimpbot> Title: Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group Charter (at www.whatwg.org)
  21. # [01:12] <shepazu> stfu, pimpbot
  22. # [01:14] <Dashiva> pimpbot silence
  23. # [01:14] <pimpbot> Dashiva: Error: "silence" is not a valid command.
  24. # [01:14] <Philip> http://www.google.com/search?q=terrorist+training+manuals
  25. # [01:14] <pimpbot> Title: terrorist training manuals - Google Search (at www.google.com)
  26. # [01:14] <Philip> Oh dear, look who's looking suspicious in Google's logs
  27. # [01:14] <shepazu> Philip: I have seen major and active support from at least 4 of the people on that list
  28. # [01:15] <shepazu> and without those salaries being paid, I don't think the WHATWG could be be so effective
  29. # [01:15] <shepazu> not that I'm criticizing in the least, just pointing out that there is a money trail that Molly is conveniently overlooking
  30. # [01:24] <takkaria> Philip: mm, true enough. :)
  31. # [01:31] <shepazu> btw, I'm not at all downplaying the role that volunteers play in WHATWG, but they are termed "contributors" by WHATWG, not "members"
  32. # [01:31] <Dashiva> Even the naming puts focus on action
  33. # [01:41] <shepazu> Dashiva: sure, but I'm not sure that is substantively different than "participants" or "commenters" or any of the "action words" we use to describe people active on W3C's lists
  34. # [01:43] <Philip> Surely a member is someone who membs
  35. # [01:45] <takkaria> I memb all the time
  36. # [01:48] <shepazu> I have a very bad membery
  37. # [01:49] <Dashiva> <dismembered joke goes here>
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  39. # [01:50] <takkaria> I'm actually vaguely offended by the "A number of clever lads" comment
  40. # [01:51] <shepazu> takkaria: are you a lass?
  41. # [01:51] <takkaria> I'm not sure that any of the people mentioned are "lads" and I'm not sure that if they are it has anything to do wit hthe issue
  42. # [01:51] <takkaria> no, but my politics can be quite feminist at times
  43. # [01:51] <marcos> :)
  44. # [01:51] <shepazu> alas, you are a lad :)
  45. # [01:52] <takkaria> I'm not sure I'm a lad either :P
  46. # [01:52] <marcos> Well, you can't count then number of chicks at at a TPAC on one hand usually
  47. # [01:53] <marcos> s/can't/can
  48. # [01:53] <shepazu> yeah, as Woody Allen said, I'm straight, but being bisexual doubles your chance for a date on a Saturday night
  49. # [01:53] <shepazu> or, at TPAC, umptubles
  50. # [01:53] <takkaria> I might have to come in drag if I ever attend a TPAC then
  51. # [01:54] <shepazu> takkaria: you wouldn't be able to breathe :)
  52. # [01:54] <shepazu> takkaria: where are you based?
  53. # [01:55] <takkaria> Manchester, UK
  54. # [01:55] <shepazu> ah, thought as much... I ask because, as an american, I see the word "lad" as quaint... I don't think it has the same connotation here as in the UK
  55. # [01:56] <shepazu> and I think that's probably the sense in which Molly meant it, not the UK sense
  56. # [01:57] <shepazu> so, I would reserve my offense for her sheer silliness
  57. # [01:57] <takkaria> hmm, interesting
  58. # [01:57] <Philip> More like "chap"?
  59. # [01:57] <shepazu> I'm pretty sure she meant "clever lads" as a compliment
  60. # [01:57] <marcos> You mean not in the "Lets go out and get really pissed and pick up birds" sense of lads?
  61. # [01:57] <shepazu> Philip: yeah, exactly
  62. # [01:58] <shepazu> we just don't use "lad" at all, except jokingly referring to kids
  63. # [01:58] <shepazu> or "chap" for that matter
  64. # [01:58] <shepazu> or bloke
  65. # [01:59] <shepazu> or rutabaga
  66. # [01:59] <Dashiva> shepazu: It's a compliment, but at the same time somewhat condescending. Clever, but still just lads.
  67. # [01:59] <marcos> She's being rhetorical... using colloquial/phatic expression to show she part of the clique.
  68. # [02:00] <shepazu> marcos: exactly
  69. # [02:00] <shepazu> Dashiva: as an american, I really don't get that sense of it
  70. # [02:00] <shepazu> it's almost a pat phrase, "clever lad"
  71. # [02:00] <shepazu> like "veritable plethora"
  72. # [02:01] <shepazu> I *think* Molly is a USAian... if not, nm :)
  73. # [02:01] <Dashiva> I was more affected by the repeated instances of "Nothing demonstrates this more than..." myself
  74. # [02:02] <marcos> it's the new "in the real world"
  75. # [02:02] <shepazu> oh, it's all just silly propaganda
  76. # [02:02] <marcos> "those crazy WHATWG kids... they are not in it for the money, fame, or the girls" :)
  77. # [02:02] <Dashiva> Oh, now I've got that oldie in my mind.
  78. # [02:03] <shepazu> not worth taking seriously, really... it all seemed rather out of date to me, like a cry for attention...
  79. # [02:03] <marcos> (mostly because there is none of any in standards)
  80. # [02:03] <Dashiva> "And I would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling WHATWG kids"
  81. # [02:03] <marcos> LOL
  82. # [02:03] <shepazu> now that WHATWG is going "mainstream", people will bash it to get attention, just like they do W3C
  83. # [02:04] <Dashiva> And then we can get t-shirts saying "I liked WHATWG when it was underground"
  84. # [02:04] <shepazu> ("... and that blasted mutt."
  85. # [02:04] <takkaria> heh, I might have to make one of those
  86. # [02:06] <marcos> soon, a new group, the WHAT-TF will break off from the WHAT-WG from frustration to work on HTML6.
  87. # [02:07] <marcos> ..."Screw those guys and their error handling! We want vague namespaced markup based on OWL and efficient XML"
  88. # [02:07] <shepazu> lol
  89. # [02:07] <Dashiva> marcos: No no no, turtle
  90. # [02:08] <marcos> hehe
  91. # [02:08] <shepazu> SGML
  92. # [02:08] <shepazu> strict
  93. # [02:11] <Philip> I think we should work on a spec that exposes the Win32 API to web page scripts
  94. # [02:12] <Philip> Firefox can just use Wine on Linux so it's fine for cross-platformness
  95. # [02:13] <Philip> It's silly to have as many layers of abstraction between scripts and the OS, and we should go with the de facto standard instead
  96. # [02:15] <takkaria> two interoperable implementations might be hard to achieve
  97. # [02:15] <Philip> We've already got two that work pretty well in quite a lot of cases
  98. # [02:15] <takkaria> I don't quite get why Molly is shouting at WebKit for implementing bits of CSS3 either
  99. # [02:17] <Dashiva> Because it doesn't have the magical w3c stamp of approval
  100. # [02:23] <takkaria> just reading it is a bit of a headfuck. anyway, bedtime for me ~
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  121. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> http://blog.mozilla.com/blassey/2008/09/23/camera-input-tag/
  122. # [05:24] <pimpbot> Title: Camera input tag at Brads Blog (at blog.mozilla.com)
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  181. # [15:07] <Eck> hmm
  182. # [15:10] * Eck looks around.
  183. # [15:11] * marcos wonders what Eck will find from looking at an empty chat screen.
  184. # [15:13] * Eck raises an eyebrow at marcos reply.
  185. # [15:13] <marcos> :)
  186. # [15:16] <Eck> Can anyone give me some suggestions on a quote site im currently working with?
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  188. # [15:49] <beowulf> Eck: what kind of quotes?
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  190. # [15:56] <Eck> IRC quotes
  191. # [15:58] <Philip> What kind of suggestions?
  192. # [16:01] <Eck> http://www.quotebucket.info.tm/, on the quote pages, wondered if I could get rid of the actual quote images that are at the top of the boxes, and use some sort of CSS for that.
  193. # [16:01] <Eck> ?
  194. # [16:02] <anne> you want html or css on freenode
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  199. # [16:13] <beowulf> or bash.org :)
  200. # [16:15] <Eck> i bought bash.org :P
  201. # [16:16] <beowulf> well at any rate this is probably not the channel you are looking for
  202. # [16:16] <beowulf> #css or #html on freenode.net, as anne said
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  219. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> What an interesting...discussion yesterday about Molly's article.
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  234. # [21:09] <gsnedders> marcos_: I thought we were going to call it HTML 2π and not HTML 6
  235. # [21:09] <gsnedders> (as HTML 2π sounds cooler)
  236. # [21:09] <gsnedders> ChrisWilson: http://twitter.com/gsnedders/statuses/924829086
  237. # [21:09] <gsnedders> "Should we start sending +1 emails to public-html to make it clear what our opinions are so consensus can be more fairly judged?"
  238. # [21:09] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / Geoffrey Sneddon: @cwilso: Should we start s ... (at twitter.com)
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  246. # [21:19] <marcos_> gsnedders, sure! no, lets get tricky and screw with the acronym like OWL did and call it 2HTLMπ :)
  247. # [21:20] <gsnedders> marcos_: Maybe that was just myself, Philip, and jgraham mucking around over supper in May though :)
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  249. # [21:21] <marcos_> I'm pretty sure I wasn't there.
  250. # [21:21] <marcos_> :)
  251. # [21:21] <gsnedders> I'
  252. # [21:21] <gsnedders> *I'm pretty sure there were three people there. :)
  253. # [21:21] <gsnedders> And a few other people in the restaurant too, but just random people
  254. # [21:21] <shepazu> gsnedders: how about HTML √2 to point out how irrational it is?
  255. # [21:21] <marcos_> if you'd bothered to annotate the even using RDF then you would not have forgotten
  256. # [21:22] <gsnedders> shepazu: That's < 5.
  257. # [21:22] <shepazu> even more irrational!
  258. # [21:22] <gsnedders> shepazu: True.
  259. # [21:22] <marcos_> s/even/event
  260. # [21:22] <gsnedders> √2π sounds better, though.
  261. # [21:23] <gsnedders> We need the π.
  262. # [21:23] <gsnedders> "How are we going to get more editors? They don't grow on trees."
  263. # [21:23] <shepazu> iirc, π is also irrational
  264. # [21:23] <gsnedders> http://www.mildlyhotpeppers.com/comics/121/
  265. # [21:23] <pimpbot> Title: Math Humor | MildlyHotPeppers (at www.mildlyhotpeppers.com)
  266. # [21:24] <gsnedders> I got linked to that by a friend a few days ago
  267. # [21:35] <shepazu> heh
  268. # [21:37] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.15.149)
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  271. # [23:15] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
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  273. # Session Close: Thu Sep 25 00:00:00 2008

The end :)