/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-09-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 30 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:02] * jgraham questions whether we are actually proud to power the WHATWG blog with Wordpress
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  25. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> @planet
  26. # [03:44] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: This Week in HTML 5 - Episode 7 <http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-7> ** HTML 5: Ian Hickson showing you features in browsers today! <http://www.reddit.com/r/browsers/comments/73zg6/html_5_ian_hickson_showing_you_features_in/> ** Planet Hopping <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/09/27/Planet-Hopping> ** Google Tech Talk: HTML5 demos (16 more messages)
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  36. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> @bugmail
  37. # [06:41] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: "[Bug 6102] Please do not break applet element in HTML 5" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2008Sep/0034.html> ** "[Bug 6104] and should prevent cross-origin media loads" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2008Sep/0032.html> ** "[Bug 6104] New: and should prevent cross-origin media loads" (1 message in (12 more messages)
  38. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> @bug 6104
  39. # [06:41] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6104 ian@hixie.ch, P2, NEW, <video> and <audio> should prevent cross-origin media loads
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  48. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> pimpbot, tell Lachy to please ping me when he shows up
  49. # [08:38] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: The operation succeeded.
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  55. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> http://www.bluegriffon.org/
  56. # [10:34] <pimpbot> Title: BlueGriffon.org (at www.bluegriffon.org)
  57. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> "The next-generation Web editor based on the rendering engine of Firefox."
  58. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> doesn't actually seem to be available for download yet
  59. # [10:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's the relationship to what glazou is working on?
  60. # [10:37] * hsivonen notes that the page has a use case for input type=search
  61. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think it obsoletes or replaces glazou's editor
  62. # [10:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: who's working on it?
  63. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> no idea
  64. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> I actually found out about it from glazou's blog
  65. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2008/09/29/BlueGriffon
  66. # [10:38] <pimpbot> Title: BlueGriffon™ - (at www.glazman.org)
  67. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> maybe glazou is working on it
  68. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://sources.disruptive-innovations.com/bluegriffon/
  69. # [10:40] <pimpbot> Title: Revision 12: / (at sources.disruptive-innovations.com)
  70. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> so seems it must be glazou's work
  71. # [10:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: interesting and cool.
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  73. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: see also http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2008/09/25/Sidebars
  74. # [10:51] <pimpbot> Title: Sidebars - (at www.glazman.org)
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  76. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> @last
  77. # [10:56] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: [17:45:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: see also http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2008/09/25/Sidebars
  78. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> @last --nolimit
  79. # [10:57] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: [17:51:07] <MikeSmith> @last, [17:45:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: see also http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2008/09/25/Sidebars, [17:35:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: interesting and cool., [17:35:07] <MikeSmith> so seems it must be glazou's work, [17:34:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://sources.disruptive-innovations.com/bluegriffon/, [17:33:02] <MikeSmith> maybe glazou is working on it, [17:32:41] (2 more messages)
  80. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> @more
  81. # [10:58] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: <MikeSmith> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2008/09/29/BlueGriffon, [17:32:40] <MikeSmith> I actually found out about it from glazou's blog, [17:32:26] <MikeSmith> no idea, [17:31:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: who's working on it?, [17:31:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think it obsoletes or replaces glazou's editor, [17:31:18] * hsivonen notes that the page has a use case for input type=search, (1 more message)
  82. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> @more
  83. # [10:58] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: [17:30:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's the relationship to what glazou is working on?, [17:29:51] <MikeSmith> doesn't actually seem to be available for download yet, [17:29:35] <MikeSmith> "The next-generation Web editor based on the rendering engine of Firefox.", and [17:29:09] <MikeSmith> http://www.bluegriffon.org/
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  87. # [13:12] * Topic is 'HTML discussion | This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  88. # [13:12] * Set by MikeSmith on Fri Sep 19 03:09:54
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  93. # [13:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6127] New: Deal with origin details in WebSocket and postMessage feedback" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2008Sep/0035.html>
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  102. # [15:18] <hsivonen> whoa! lots of validation email while I was working on code...
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  107. # [16:02] <aaronlev> i hate to bring this up, but html could use a transition between 4.01 and 5
  108. # [16:02] <aaronlev> i'm sure it's been brought up before
  109. # [16:03] <aaronlev> like a 4.02 that doesn't include anything new unless it's widely supported
  110. # [16:03] <aaronlev> but also removes stuff like font and basefont
  111. # [16:04] <Julian> I also think that a few errata would be useful (such as @profile syntax). The question is where to stop.
  112. # [16:04] <Dashiva> And later, when we return to specify the rest, we find it's been entrenched into implementations and can't be changed
  113. # [16:04] <Philip> HTML 4.01 Strict already removes stuff like font and basefont
  114. # [16:04] <aaronlev> Philip: ok
  115. # [16:04] <aaronlev> Dashiva: what do you mean?
  116. # [16:05] <aaronlev> ah nm i got you
  117. # [16:05] <aaronlev> why can't it be a parallel effort
  118. # [16:05] <aaronlev> i don't mean stop the html 5 train for it
  119. # [16:05] <Dashiva> It could, but what's the point then? All we get is more overhead from trying to decide what goes where
  120. # [16:06] <aaronlev> the point is to allow the web to start moving in the right direction before html 5 arrives
  121. # [16:06] <aaronlev> because it's going to be years
  122. # [16:06] <Julian> right.
  123. # [16:06] <aaronlev> all the browsers support tabindex the same way now, in my mind it's an errata
  124. # [16:06] <aaronlev> so, just address errata and allow ARIA to be used
  125. # [16:07] <Dashiva> We can do that without writing a separate spec, though
  126. # [16:07] <aaronlev> or, just address errata anyway
  127. # [16:07] <aaronlev> right
  128. # [16:07] <aaronlev> we just write errata?
  129. # [16:08] <Philip> People can and do use HTML 5 already, without waiting for it to 'arrive' - are there many who won't use new features until they're in a completed Recommendation?
  130. # [16:10] <aaronlev> MikeSmith: what do you think about creating an errata for tabindex and @profile syntax so we can address it in w3c validation
  131. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> I think we can address it in w3c validation without creating errata
  132. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> and should do it that way, if we want it done sooner rather than later
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  134. # [16:12] <aaronlev> MikeSmith: that would go a long way
  135. # [16:12] <aaronlev> we could deal with ARIA + HTML separately
  136. # [16:12] <aaronlev> as an exerpimental thing
  137. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> and if the specific need is just to get validator.w3.org updated
  138. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> yeah
  139. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> so the main thing is actually to just produce an updated DTD and get agreement on it among those who care
  140. # [16:15] <aaronlev> MikeSmith: do you know how to make that happen?
  141. # [16:15] <aaronlev> ok
  142. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> how to make it happen is for somebody to first put a strawman DTD together
  143. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> I thinlk
  144. # [16:16] <myakura> "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01+WAI-ARIA//EN"
  145. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> yeah, something like that
  146. # [16:18] <aaronlev> myakura: but i think first we need just to fix html 4.01 though, to allow tabindex
  147. # [16:18] <myakura> (now i want <ruby> and some sectioning elements like <section> to be in HTML4+
  148. # [16:18] <aaronlev> because tabindex is really part of html
  149. # [16:19] <aaronlev> it needs to be allowed on any element and can be a negative number
  150. # [16:19] <aaronlev> that's the only change we need at first, and then we can do the HTML 4.01+WAI-ARIA
  151. # [16:20] * myakura wonders then it can be called as HTML4
  152. # [16:20] <myakura> interesting idea though.
  153. # [16:20] <aaronlev> myakura: that's why i suggested an errata
  154. # [16:20] <hsivonen> aaronlev: it's not an honest erratum
  155. # [16:20] <hsivonen> aaronlev: it would be historical revisionism
  156. # [16:21] * hsivonen is composing a long email reply
  157. # [16:21] <aaronlev> ok
  158. # [16:21] <aaronlev> hsivonen: well my other suggestion is that we need an html 4.02 then
  159. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> yeah, we shouldn't follow the bad precedent of calling a revision an erratum, a la XML 1.0 Fifth Edition
  160. # [16:22] <hsivonen> aaronlev: leaving everything that's broken about HTML 4 unfixed?
  161. # [16:22] <aaronlev> hsivonen: that's a leading question sir :)
  162. # [16:23] <aaronlev> hsivonen: something that can land without causing major headaches?
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  164. # [16:24] <hsivonen> aaronlev: the view held by me, and AFAIK by some other #whatWG regulars, is that HTML4 is so broken that it doesn't make sense to patch it up piecemeal
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  166. # [16:25] <aaronlev> hsivonen: but we can't wait 10 years or whatever for people to be able to develop accessible content
  167. # [16:25] <hsivonen> aaronlev: that's a false dichotomy :-)
  168. # [16:26] <aaronlev> not for people who have validation as a requirement :)
  169. # [16:26] <aaronlev> w3c has a stamp of approval, they're the judges of correctness i guess
  170. # [16:29] <hsivonen> aaronlev: w3c already runs a Validator.nu instance
  171. # [16:29] <aaronlev> i did not know that
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  173. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> aaronlev: I think that PFWG or WAI can on its own produce a new "accessibility features" update/extension to HTML 4 if it wants to
  174. # [16:45] <aaronlev> MikeSmith: seems like people might disagree that it can be called HTML
  175. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> it can be called anything you guys want to call it
  176. # [16:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: without any WG chartering limitations?
  177. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> only thing I saw expressed was that it should not be labeled "HTML 4"
  178. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> which I think the community couldn't care less about calling it anyway
  179. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> developers and authors just want something that they can use that works the way they expect it to work across browsers
  180. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> the generally couldn't care less what it's called
  181. # [16:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: curiously, the problem seems to be that the community wants something that is called HTML 4 but that differs from the HTML 4 spec
  182. # [16:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if they didn't care what it's called, it could be called HTML5
  183. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> I guess I'm unaware of a great groundswell of enthusiasm for the "HTML 4" brand
  184. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> most authors I talk with here in Japan at least seem very much sold on the XHTML brand
  185. # [16:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've gotten independent requests for HTML 4 tweaks from at least four parties recently
  186. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> I see
  187. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> aaronlev: my main point is that if those of you who care strongly about this want to produce a DTD and have it initially supported experimentally in validator.w3.org, you can do that fairly quickly and then start getting feedback from actual authors/users about that and making refinements/changes as needed
  188. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> and you can do that without needing to get sign-off from others outside who may disagree about your goals
  189. # [16:55] <aaronlev> MikeSmith: yes i'm working on that in parallel
  190. # [16:55] <aaronlev> catch y'all later
  191. # [16:56] <aaronlev> thanks MikeSmith
  192. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> chees
  193. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> cheers
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  196. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> @bugmail
  197. # [17:07] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: "[Bug 6127] New: Deal with origin details in WebSocket and postMessage feedback" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2008Sep/0035.html> ** "[Bug 6102] Please do not break applet element in HTML 5" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2008Sep/0034.html> ** "[Bug 6104] and should prevent cross-origin media (13 more messages)
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  218. # [19:08] <beowulf> is there a single group at the w3c that deals with education?
  219. # [19:09] <beowulf> or is education per wg?
  220. # [19:11] <hsivonen> beowulf: do you mean dealing with the education sector of society or dealing with educating people about W3C specs or do you mean something else?
  221. # [19:12] <beowulf> hsivonen: dealing with the education sector will do as a start
  222. # [19:13] <hsivonen> beowulf: I don't know the answer to that one
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  238. # [21:57] <Hixie> aaronlev: the two things blocking ARIA from being added to HTML5 are (a) that i'm busy working on other aspects of html5, and (b) that the ARIA spec isn't even remotely detailed enough yet.
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  245. # Session Close: Wed Oct 01 00:00:00 2008

The end :)