/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-10-27 / end

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  34. # [09:40] <foo> gsnedders: ping
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  65. # [14:50] <pimpbot> planet: Bay area meetup details <http://blog.whatwg.org/bay-area-meetup-details>
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  78. # [15:51] <pimpbot> planet: Firefox 3.1 to support HTML 5 video and audio <http://www.reddit.com/r/browsers/comments/79m36/firefox_31_to_support_html_5_video_and_audio/>
  79. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> @bugmail
  80. # [15:52] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Damn. Something's busted. Find MikeSmith.
  81. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> @planet
  82. # [15:54] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Firefox 3.1 to support HTML 5 video and audio <http://www.reddit.com/r/browsers/comments/79m36/firefox_31_to_support_html_5_video_and_audio/> ** Bay area meetup details <http://blog.whatwg.org/bay-area-meetup-details> ** Ben Millard on contributing to the W3C HTML WG <http://standardssuck.org/benmillard> ** Misdirection <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/10/23/Misdirection> ** (16 more messages)
  83. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> @more
  84. # [15:54] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Chris Wilson on Internet Explorer 8 and the W3C HTML Working Group <http://standardssuck.org/chris> ** W3CTP: The Technical Plenary Day <http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/10/w3ctp-plenary-day> ** Normative References to Moving Targets are Dangerous <http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/10/normative-references-conformance.html> ** Chaals on Web Apps and HTML5 <http://standardssuck.org/chaals> (15 more messages)
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  88. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> http://blog.raphinou.com/2008/10/why-use-chrome-when-you-have-arora.html
  89. # [16:12] <pimpbot> Title: Raphinou's blog: Why use Chrome when you have Arora? (at blog.raphinou.com)
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  91. # [16:19] <Philip> "Currently Arora is a very basic browser whose feature list includes things like "History" and "Bookmarks"."
  92. # [16:20] <Philip> Wow, that sounds compelling - I can't imagine why anyone would use Chrome instead
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  95. # [16:54] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: pong
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  97. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: just pinging you to say Hi and that it was great finally meeting you last week
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  101. # [17:09] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Yeah, good to finally meet you too :)
  102. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> hope we can have a chance sometime soon again for a f2f in Europe
  103. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> but I think in the meantime, a UK meetup of html and whatwg and webapps folk would be really good
  104. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: you might also want to pay a social visit to Harry Halpin and Henry Thompson at Edinburgh
  105. # [17:13] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Yeah, I spoke to both of them a bit
  106. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> cool
  107. # [17:13] * Parts: anne (annevk@66.134.141.179)
  108. # [17:16] <Julian> ha, do you want to lure him into RDFa/GRDDL land? :-)
  109. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> yeah, danger there... but I think gsnedders can manage to resist that temptation
  110. # [17:19] <Julian> well, maybe it doesn't hurt not to
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  112. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> Julian: btw, was also great to meet you. wish I had had more time to talk with you there
  113. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Julian: You didn't manage to convince me of what we disagree on last week :)
  114. # [17:21] * MikeSmith thinks gsnedders is a refreshingly agreeable person
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  116. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: please don't learn how to be disagreeable
  117. # [17:22] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: :P
  118. # [17:22] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: hsivonen is more agreeable than me
  119. # [17:23] <Julian> gsnedders: we may disagree on several things, but I guess in this case you're talking about the ping attribute being controversial or not?
  120. # [17:23] <gsnedders> Julian: No, I was really thinking of defining error handling, and requiring it
  121. # [17:24] <Philip> If you disagree on whether the feature is controversial or not, I think that means it's controversial :-)
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  123. # [17:29] <Julian> Philip: yes. qed.
  124. # [17:29] * gsnedders still thinks there are more controversial things
  125. # [17:29] <Julian> gsnedders: I think defining error handling can be a good thing, if it happens in the right place.
  126. # [17:30] <Julian> gsnedders: for instance, I wish there was a spec that *just* defines HTML5 as a markup language (wuch wouldn't include it)
  127. # [17:30] <Julian> gsnedders: s/wuch/which/
  128. # [17:31] <Julian> gsnedders: I also think that sometimes it is sufficient to say "this is an error", such as when talking about XHR should treat malformed HTTP responses
  129. # [17:31] <Hixie> who would the target audience be? (e.g. would it include the DOM APIs?)
  130. # [17:33] <Julian> no, it would be just the markup language, no DOM, no document.write, etc. Just like with HTML 4.01
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  132. # [17:36] <Hixie> who would the target audience be?
  133. # [17:36] <Hixie> HTML4 contained as many implementation requirements as authoring requirements
  134. # [17:36] <Hixie> HTML5 and HTML4 are the same in that respect; HTML5 is just more detailed
  135. # [17:37] * ChrisWilson notes "but nowhere near ENOUGH implementation requirements"
  136. # [17:37] <Julian> people producing *documents*, not web applications
  137. # [17:37] <Hixie> ChrisWilson: no kidding :-)
  138. # [17:37] <ChrisWilson> 1
  139. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> I will agree that HTML4 is not the model of spec organization that we should aim for
  140. # [17:37] <Hixie> Julian: so it wouldn't include, e.g., the form controls?
  141. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> I think HTML4 was too detailed in other respects -- too much strictly informative test mixed in with what normative text (or what should have been normative text)
  142. # [17:38] <gsnedders> What normative text? :P
  143. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> yeah, point taken
  144. # [17:38] <Julian> Hixie: that's a good question. There's a place for form-less (totally static) HTML, but I'm not sure enough people would be interested in that particular subset.
  145. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: that's what I said "what should have been..."
  146. # [17:38] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I know :)
  147. # [17:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i don't think html4 is too detailed in any respect, but that's another story
  148. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> s/that's what/that's why/
  149. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: well, it's certainly got a lot of words at least
  150. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> it is the opposite for minimalistic
  151. # [17:39] <Hixie> Julian: i'm not sure either. hence the lack of such a document so far.
  152. # [17:40] <Hixie> there are sections where it is certainly wordy. i wouldn't say detailed. :-)
  153. # [17:40] <Hixie> but if you have specifics in mind, do tell :-)
  154. # [17:40] * gsnedders had bank card swallowed by ATM today
  155. # [17:40] * gsnedders has no money
  156. # [17:40] <gsnedders> That's technically incorrect, I have a small amount of euros and 3p
  157. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> I don't think an HTML5 markup language spec should be targeted at end users. I think some who would find such as spec to be useful would be implementors of conformance checkers and authoring tools
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  159. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> or in general, implementors of any application that is meant to produce conformant HTML, as opposed to applications that are meant to consume HTML
  160. # [17:41] <Hixie> MikeSmith: henri has explicitly said he wants the implementor detail (e.g. the parser spec) to write a validator
  161. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: he doesn't need it in the same spec
  162. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> and has not said he needs it in the same spec
  163. # [17:42] <Hixie> i agree that authors in general need a document without the UA requirements, e.g. without parsing, but that would include the DOM, which julian said he didn't want.
  164. # [17:43] <Hixie> sure, but now we're talking three specs (one for validator writers, one for authors, one for implementors)
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  166. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> not sure who "we" are... I'm not talking about three specs at least
  167. # [17:44] <Julian> I actually wish there'd be more than three, but I may be in a minority here...
  168. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> Julian: I think we should avoid proliferation of specs in that way
  169. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> unless you are volunteering to edit one of them...
  170. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> or several of them
  171. # [17:47] <Julian> my experience is that the number of specs really do *not* affect the work load -- the total size does (yes, speaking of experience)
  172. # [17:47] <Hixie> mikesmith: we = you, me, and julian
  173. # [17:47] <Hixie> Julian: well, since i'm editing this spec, my experience is probably more relevant :-)
  174. # [17:47] <Hixie> i expect we have different editing styles
  175. # [17:48] <Julian> Actually I think we have similar editing styles, so I'm confused why our experience differs.
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  177. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> Julian: I think that most editors I have worked with at least would very much disagree that the number specs does affect the work load (with full respect to the fact that I know you have a different experience in the work you've done)
  178. # [17:49] <Julian> The only overhead that I see (in my work) is that cross-document references require a *bit* more work, and that get's migitated by having tools that help with them.
  179. # [17:49] * gsnedders waits to be slapped
  180. # [17:50] <Julian> in the end it's only the distinction between fragid vs docname+fragid
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  182. # [17:51] <gsnedders> Julian: Do you do xref automatically? Cross-document? Using what?
  183. # [17:51] <Julian> of course having layers and optional parts in separate documents makes layer violations and circular dependencies more visible, but that's afeature, not a bug
  184. # [17:51] <Julian> gsnedders: XSLT
  185. # [17:52] <Philip> gsnedders: For complex cross-document references you could just emit <a href="javascript:alert('JFGI')">
  186. # [17:53] <Hixie> Julian: for me editing a 100 page spec or a 500 page spec is nearly identical. The bulk of the cost of editing the spec is static overhead like dealing with w3c process or setting up the bug tracking software.
  187. # [17:53] <Hixie> and that process is per-spec, not per-page.
  188. # [17:54] <Julian> not sure I understand that.
  189. # [17:54] <Hixie> which part?
  190. # [17:54] <Julian> are you saying you need n bug trackers for n specs?
  191. # [17:55] <Julian> and, speaking of process overhead...
  192. # [17:55] <Hixie> yes, tools for one spec are rarely appropriate for another in my experience.
  193. # [17:55] <Julian> we avoid that by always publishing new drafts at the same time.
  194. # [17:55] <Hixie> i try to make my tools very specific to the spec i'm working on so as to best address its needs
  195. # [17:56] <Julian> example?
  196. # [17:56] <Hixie> e.g. html5 needs the section status tracker stuff, but web workers and xbl2 don't
  197. # [17:56] <Julian> so would HTML5-split-into-pieces require different tools for the different pieces?
  198. # [17:56] <Hixie> yes
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  200. # [17:56] <Hixie> oh that reminds me, i made the list of sections while waiting in the airport
  201. # [17:56] <Julian> not convinced
  202. # [17:56] <Hixie> i should mail that out
  203. # [17:57] <Hixie> Julian: i'm not trying to convince you
  204. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie: please do mail that out soon as you can
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  208. # [18:01] <Julian> clarifying... of course my claim about the overhead was about the case where the distinct specs are closely related (in case that wasn't clear)
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  222. # [18:31] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ok, did actions 80 and 81 (see recent mail to public-html)
  223. # [18:31] <Hixie> now i have to go work and eat
  224. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks
  225. # [18:33] <Hixie> specifically http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0810271658160.1041@hixie.dreamhostps.com
  226. # [18:33] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at www.w3.org)
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  228. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks extremely much. the list looks like exactly what's needed
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  233. # [19:13] <gsnedders> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2979057018/
  234. # [19:13] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Teamster on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (at www.flickr.com)
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  246. # [21:56] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  247. # [22:01] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.245.150)
  248. # [22:01] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  249. # [22:05] * Quits: heycam (cam@124.168.124.252) (Quit: bye)
  250. # [22:47] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  251. # [23:30] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  252. # [23:31] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65) (Connection reset by peer)
  253. # [23:35] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  254. # [23:58] * Quits: anne (annevk@67.152.80.106) (Ping timeout)
  255. # Session Close: Tue Oct 28 00:00:00 2008

The end :)